What the hell is going on in Wales?

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

On point 4: I believe the way the WRU would fund central contracts is through the monies they currently 'give' to the regions.  However, as this is only £1.5m for each region then they won't be able to fund many players.  Therefore, I believe the way they planned to do it was to withhold some or all of the competitions money (cica £9m between 4 regions) generated from TV and Europe.  I think the regions are angry as they feel this money is theirs in the first place, but the WRU receives it and decides what to do with it.

So what would happen is that, say, 30 players are centrally contracted but the regions lose their player release money (£1.5m - fair enough) and their split of the TV monies (ouch!).  And for this deal the regions lose all control over their star assets and would undoubtedly see less of them.

On point 3: The Dragons are 50% owned by the WRU. You'd expect the region with most WRU input to be the best of the bunch, especially when the WRU is doing well financially; but no, the opposite has been true for most of the Dragons' existence. It's hardly a ringing endorsement for more union involvement.

1. Well currently the Participation Agreement runs out at the end of this season. It roles over unless the Regions say no (not sure if this actively requires them to sign somethign to stop it or if they sign something to say they're going to continue it). There's a lot of speculation about the funding the Regions. But no 'evidence'. There have been strong suggestions that the Welsh international players were 'encouraged' not to renew contracts with the Regions until after the new Participation Agreement was signed. Why? More speculation.

2. They're still paying off the MS I think. As for plenty of money...well record profits, additional games compared with other Unions.

3. The WRU paid £16.5M to the Regions. This was is part of the Participation Agreement between the Regions and the WRU. This Agreement also stipulates the requirements of the Regions (e.g. Non-Welsh Qualified player limits, additional International player release periods, etc). No reason why additional requirements could not be stipulated. I'm not sure how much direct control over them is really required from the Union's point of view.

4. The WRU offer for central contracts came with a reduction of funding of £6M per year. This would mean that the Regions would be getting about £10M a year from the WRU and central contracts. For perspective, the IRFU gave about £19M to the Provinces last year (on top of central contracts). This is even though the WRU play an additional game every year. There is a general feeling that the WRU want the control of the IRFU and SRU without putting in the funds, their happy for benefactors to pump the cash in (but these people have stopped now).

Also, the Regional set-up in the beginning was a bit of a   up. People threatened to go to court, etc, etc. The WRU 'may' be using this situation to move in a direction they would have preferred in the beginning. Or they may not.

I have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on either. All I know is that right now the regions seem to all be suffering from multiple organ failure - and hold less interest for fans by the day. I've been a strong follower of regional rugby since its inception (being from North Wales I had no previous ties to any old club) - and my friends and I would regularly pay to go and see all 4 regions. But the truth is none of us have been to a game this year - and I think we only went to one or two last year. There was a point about 4-5 years ago, when it looked like the regions were working and the brand and quality of rugby in them was getting better and close to top European level, but in the last 3 years or so it's been on a steady and depressing slide. It's difficult to get excited about something which seems to be locked in an irreversible decline. What the ultimate outcome will be, I have no idea - but Welsh club/regional rugby cannot go on like this or there'll be no one left to play or watch it!

MarcusHalberstram wrote:I have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on either.  All I know is that right now the regions seem to all be suffering from multiple organ failure - and hold less interest for fans by the day.  I've been a strong follower of regional rugby since its inception (being from North Wales I had no previous ties to any old club) - and my friends and I would regularly pay to go and see all 4 regions.  But the truth is none of us have been to a game this year - and I think we only went to one or two last year.  There was a point about 4-5 years ago, when it looked like the regions were working and the brand and quality of rugby in them was getting better and close to top European level, but in the last 3 years or so it's been on a steady and depressing slide.  It's difficult to get excited about something which seems to be locked in an irreversible decline.  What the ultimate outcome will be, I have no idea - but Welsh club/regional rugby cannot go on like this or there'll be no one left to play or watch it!

I think that was the point the sugar daddies decided to stop putting their money in.

If the RFU have surplus funds what are they doing with them? Supporting the game at all levels? Paying off debt? Hoarding it? It can't just dissapear

what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

They can't (without leaving Union completely). The IRB Regulations specifically state that they fall under the Union who's geographical jurisdiction they're in (WRU). No way around this without the WRU agreeing.

HammerofThunor wrote:
2. They're still paying off the MS I think. As for plenty of money...well record profits, additional games compared with other Unions.

I think Roger Lewis restructured the debt with Barclays so that the stadium is payed off by 2020. Some people were very angry as it meant less cash to spend on rugby related things because of the increased repayment rate. It's a very awkward issue, as in 2020 when there is no debt on the stadium the WRU will have a fair amount to throw around. But in the short term, the regions are being under funded (in my eyes!).

I've found that through life, if someone doesn't like someone, then someone doesn't like someone and will always find reasons for not changing their minds.

There does seem to be a lot of contradictions in the Regions v WRU battles.  Difficult to get to the bottom of them in simple terms - and I've tried over the years.  But basically I've come to the conclusion that it's just a lot of mutual hate between them - so any offer is always seen as an insult by some, any attempt to stabilise the regions is always seen as interference by some, any loyalty to regions is always seen as a sell-out to club culture by some, any talk of true regionalism is always seen as unworkable by some.

It's rather like the PRL/HEC one that's doing the rounds too.  Two diametrically opposed sides not willing to compromise and inch on extremely divergent principles.  When trust goes, it goes.  Usually someone has to be knocked off an admin perch or two before the sides realise that speaking to each other with mutual respect is again the only way forward.
So...in both battles - coldly and clinically I say certain intransigent heads should roll to ease the passage to agreement.  There is always a few bitter eggs in any company that need scrambling before things move again.

Fly, the problem is that I don't see any evidence of compromise from the WRU. They want the regions to sign an agreement that would effectively see them get less money all the way to 2018, in return for 'extra' money to keep Welsh internationals that isn't actually new money at all, but money due to the regions anyway. They're giving with one hand and taking with the other in that instance. And to make matters worse, they declare that they're desperate to keep Welsh players in Wales whilst at the same time trying to persuade them not to sign new contracts here. Would you want to go into business with an organisation that behaves like that?

Lets be clear the WRU will push the Regions to the wall unless they accept a level central control.

The Regions cannot join the Aviva unless the WRU agree

There appears to be no way round that.

The REgions really are between a rock and a hard place

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

Basically 1) is correct, they do not have the money to buy the Regions, 2) the MS is not paid off, they negotiated a lower debt, but with higher repayments over a shorter period, 4) As others have said they have offered CC, but the amount would be taken out of the £6M, this was highlighted in the George North debacle where he was being bought out of his Scarlet contract and was going to be placed with Cardiff, this incensed RRW including Cardiff.

But is there any more money there to go to the regions?

Thank you all for such quick feedback!

If the regions would not get more money by agreeing to central contracts then I can see why they would not go for them.

I'm still puzzled by 2 and 3:

The union may not have paid off the stadium but they are making more money so why not increase funding to the regions?

Even though the WRU give millions to the regions each year they can't insist on central contracts. Apart from a limit on non Welsh players what do they get for all this money? They pay the regions for releasing internationals for one extra fixture so I don't count that. Or are there a heap more things that the regions do for the WRU?

Luckless Pedestrian, if I was giving millions annually to a group I'd expect much more in return. Wouldn't you?
Maybe what the union are offering is the same or less money with more conditions but I don't see what's so strange about that. What I think is strange is that they didn't insist on more conditions to their funding from the start. If the regions want to take their money, or anyone else's money then it will come with strings attached. Sad and frustrating for them but it's hardly unexpected.

Secret Fly if this is really comes down to mutual dislike then it could go on and on. A change of admin could take years.

MarcusHalberstram I get that the regions are in decline, but irreversible it's not. In theory more money could solve this, or more fans, or more success. None of these are impossible goals.

geoff998rugby wrote:Lets be clear the WRU will push the Regions to the wall unless they accept a level central control.

The Regions cannot join the Aviva unless the WRU agree

There appears to be no way round that.

The REgions really are between a rock and a hard place

I don't know why you and others say they cannot join the Aviva without WRU approval Swansea and Cardiff did so in the late 1990s, and if what you say is true RRW have said they will sue the WRU and take them to Court, they have a precedent that Newport County went bankrupt and when they reformed the Welsh FA tried to make them join the Welsh FA League's pyramid, it went to the High Court and Newport won, and funnily enough they have just joined the Football League.

wayne wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Lets be clear the WRU will push the Regions to the wall unless they accept a level central control.

The Regions cannot join the Aviva unless the WRU agree

There appears to be no way round that.

The REgions really are between a rock and a hard place

I don't know why you and others say they cannot join the Aviva without WRU approval Swansea and Cardiff did so in the late 1990s, and if what you say is true RRW have said they will sue the WRU and take them to Court, they have a precedent that Newport County went bankrupt and when they reformed the Welsh FA tried to make them join the Welsh FA League's pyramid, it went to the High Court and Newport won, and funnily enough they have just joined the Football League.  

Is it because they would lose their funding from the WRU even if they won their case?

Sorry everyone but could we keep the possible move to the AP to the other thread?

TJ wrote:But is there any more money there to go to the regions?  

If your Union (Scotland) with your crowds can give more money to your Regions than what the WRU with bigger crowds and MORE matches can then something is sadly wrong.

IT

re 2. Essentially any increased monies they planned on earning (on top of there projections) was never going to be spent on increasing funding to the regions (not even allowing for inflation in the participation agreement is just an insult imo) - it was always going into restructuring the debt for the millenium stadium.

I dont even want to know what sort of bonus/pay scheme the WRU board are on, but they wont be short of coal this winter, put it that way.

re 3. its all around the way the regions were 'set-up' (aka existing enemies and rivalries forced to merge resources). This goes towards the animosity between the regions benefactors and the WRU board, its constantly been boobie for tat for years on end.

After the PWC report, the PRGB was formed and an independant adjucator announced (Judge Williams?) to oversee meetings between RRW and the WRU. To date the WRU have not attended any of these meetings (and its assumed because at these meetings - which they agreed too - they have less power).

The way things have panned out, it does look like the WRU are watching(and throwing a bucket of water in regularly) the regions drown with a wry smile before it swoops in to pick up the pieces and has some union controlled superclubs.

jheez, thats depressing.

wayne wrote:

TJ wrote:But is there any more money there to go to the regions?  

If your Union (Scotland) with your crowds can give more money to your Regions than what the WRU with bigger crowds and MORE matches can then something is sadly wrong.

Scotland get more than their fair share of HC monies - still paid for a third team.

wayne wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Lets be clear the WRU will push the Regions to the wall unless they accept a level central control.

The Regions cannot join the Aviva unless the WRU agree

There appears to be no way round that.

The REgions really are between a rock and a hard place

I don't know why you and others say they cannot join the Aviva without WRU approval Swansea and Cardiff did so in the late 1990s, and if what you say is true RRW have said they will sue the WRU and take them to Court, they have a precedent that Newport County went bankrupt and when they reformed the Welsh FA tried to make them join the Welsh FA League's pyramid, it went to the High Court and Newport won, and funnily enough they have just joined the Football League.  

Wayne they cannot join the Aviva without WRU because they are the rules of the IRB
The Newport County ruling has since been superceeded by a EU dictate stating restraint of trade for the greater good of the sport in question is legitimate. This takes precendence

Please respond in the joining Aviva folder as requested

Thanks

Also for Newport they were already part of the English system and they wanted to rejoin it didn't they? Also there is a massive difference between the English and Welsh football systems. The Regions 'could' play in the PRO12 or the AP, both roughly 'equal' in terms of quality so I'm not sure on what basis it would be challenged.

And of course the RFU would have to agree...and why would they?

wayne wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Lets be clear the WRU will push the Regions to the wall unless they accept a level central control.

The Regions cannot join the Aviva unless the WRU agree

There appears to be no way round that.

The REgions really are between a rock and a hard place

I don't know why you and others say they cannot join the Aviva without WRU approval Swansea and Cardiff did so in the late 1990s, and if what you say is true RRW have said they will sue the WRU and take them to Court, they have a precedent that Newport County went bankrupt and when they reformed the Welsh FA tried to make them join the Welsh FA League's pyramid, it went to the High Court and Newport won, and funnily enough they have just joined the Football League.  

Which league were Newport County playing in before they went bankrupt?

Did Swansea and Cardiff have the permission of the WRU to play in the Aviva?

edit: just seen the above post!

Swansea and Cardiff didn't join the league they played a bunch on meaningless friendly games.

Sin, Newport County were relegated from the old 4th division in 1988 into the Conference, early 1989 (JAN,FEB) they went bankrupt, when they reformed the Welsh FA tried to force them into their Pyramid system, the rest is as I said.
As far as I know Cardiff and Swansea dropped out of the Welsh League system, but they did play a full range of fixtures against English teams that were in their top league, they are down in the Fixtures and Results sections as Friendlies, but then again as they (Swansea) won 20 odd and lost 6, they were anything but Friendlies.
They did play in the IIRC Swalec Cup that season, when they hammered every team in that Competition, especially so the Final where they slaughtered Llanelli, and Scott Gibbs came out with the memorable quote of it was MEN AGAINST BOYS. This schism was also about MONEY.
BW, you might think they were nothing games, but at the time those players thought the games were much more meaningful in the English system and the Results prove Conclusively so.

3 ) yes, thats true. basically the regions are privately owned businesses or franchises - a bit like American football teams. So the players are employed by the regions, not the WRU. This dates back to the days in the 90's when welsh rugby had 10 -12 pro teams that were financially unsustainable. All threatened court action if put out of business by central contracts, so a compromise of 5 merged regional teams ( not provincial or regions you notice ) In effect, this created 4 super teams in Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli. the Bridgend / Pontypridd Valleys team controversially went bankrupt with the collusion of the other 4 regional teams. What should have happened was central contracts.

The WRU is responsible for TV contracts and earns most money from internationals. Since the recession bit, regions have struggled with crowds, advertising revenue, poor marketing, animosity from the mergers and disenfranchised supporters of the old teams, and poor on pitch performances.

It soon became clear that team Wales - the 5th region - competed with the other regions for crowds and revenue and had access to all the best players. In order to get players released from their regional contractual commitments to play international rugby, the WRU agreed a 4 way split of TV and competition money between all regions. Thsi worked for a few years, until first the Ospreys, then the Blues - noticed that they were paying large wages to international players who rarely played for them. The ospreys were supplying 15 or more players to International rugby for large parts of the season and had to employ extra players to cover those players absences - and injuries. It made more commercial sense to sell them to play for other teams in France or England and still receive the same WRU income regardless of number of players missing from your regional squad, and have less players in your squad because you don't need to cover so many international call ups.

In England and France, teams often lose one or two players as there are more teams to draw from ( Leicester excepted, don't knwo how they do it ) and Ireland and Scotland have central contracts / ownership of teams.

More recently, there appears to be some sort of behind the scenes war going on between regions and WRU to do with money. Nobody is really sure what the WRU agenda is - some think they want the top welsh players playing overseas, others think they want them playing in wales.

WRU offered central contracts but claimed that putting all top players on contract would leave nothing for the regions. Its also unclear how they would be distributed across the regional teams. Regions rejected this - I think the WRU is trying to bring them to their knees to agree to this.

What is feared by fans is that the regions will go bust - best players leaving, crowds and sponsorship dwindling and rugby become a minority sport at club level. Blues lost £2m for each of the previous 2 seasons - made a small profit last season after return to Arms park and huge trimming of wage bill. Or that the WRU will set up its own teams like in ireland and Scotland. This was the original intention - North in Wrexham, South east in cardiff, south west in Swansea and west in Llanelli.

And us Welsh people fall out easily with each other. Its part of our national identity  .

Bluedragon wrote:The Bridgend / Pontypridd Valleys team controversially went bankrupt with the collusion of the other 4 regional teams.

Is that so?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:The Bridgend / Pontypridd Valleys team controversially went bankrupt with the collusion of the other 4 regional teams.

Is that so?

I've not heard this either. I thought that the guy who owned Bridgend sold off to the WRU and they immediately closed it down.

Lookout....

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/the-blues-are-wobbling_topic38619_page1.html

It would be crazy if Wales went down to two pro teams (which the runour about Cardiff wobbling said).

Although if they're told they can keep the well known Cardiff brand I wouldn't be surprised.

-.-

Welsh rugby is a nightmare.

What do the WRU plan to do to meet their contractural obligation to enter 4 teams in the Pro12 if they go down to 2 Regions?

Stick a couple of premiership team in there? Or the Cardiff and Gog A teams?

geoff998rugby wrote:What do the WRU plan to do to meet their contractural obligation to enter 4 teams in the Pro12 if they go down to 2 Regions?

They'll be fined a ...few cents in relative terms if a fine is formally needed to resolve it. I mean the others will hardly punish them too harshly (WRU) for sticking with them or certanly trying to in the face of all that has gone down in areas they can't control.

Rugby in the last few months just went from quite a pleasant place to be to a dark and foul smelling place.... where people now run around in fear as others sit waiting on their dragon's pile of gold, waiting for fellow rugby people to implode and capitulate or die. Nice family atmosphere at Christmas time .

The'll be more than fined, they will be in court, if the significantly affect Irish, Scottish and Italian revenue streams.

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in the last few months just went from quite a pleasant place to be to a dark and foul smelling place....

I agree fly, it's an omnishambles of epic proportions.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in the last few months just went from quite a pleasant place to be to a dark and foul smelling place....

I agree fly, it's an omnishambles of epic proportions.

Yep. Professional is the last word I'd use to describe any of this.

Bluedragon, most of what you said makes perfect sense but this:
"The ospreys were supplying 15 or more players to International rugby for large parts of the season and had to employ extra players to cover those players absences - and injuries. It made more commercial sense to sell them to play for other teams in France or England and still receive the same WRU income regardless of number of players missing from your regional squad, and have less players in your squad because you don't need to cover so many international call ups."

Selling off internationals and receiving the same money from the WRU only makes sense in the short term. As the standard of the performances fall how can they expect to build up attendances or win anything?

From memory the fan base that the Ospreys had was growing steadily, only a couple of years ago. They won the mag. league and had a really good side. This year I've not been impressed with the standard of the Welsh teams and from the bits I read hear the attendances are now falling across all the regions. Is this so?

I still am not convinced that the WRU have a villainous plan in all of this. Surely if they want the regions to go bust they could stop funding them today and they'd go bust tomorrow. Why drag it out when they want to set up their own regions?
Not increasing funding to the regions is not the same as deciding to destroy them. Perhaps they don't want to change the current system as the national side have such success.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout....

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/the-blues-are-wobbling_topic38619_page1.html

Scarletfever has a comedian.....

"We Blues Wobble But We Don't Fall Down."

Very good though.

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

The suggestion is that they will go to court claiming restraint of trade by the WRU and IRB.

All I'll say at this point is that I hope that whatever comes out of this in the long run is a positive for Welsh rugby. It was in Wales that I got into rugby in the first place and I know what it means to you guys.

Pob lwc (sp?)

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

The suggestion is that they will go to court claiming restraint of trade by the WRU and IRB.

would be a nonsense case. Yes they can join the AP - without any payuments from the WRU and without the use of WRU facilities

TJ wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

The suggestion is that they will go to court claiming restraint of trade by the WRU and IRB.

would be a nonsense case.  Yes they can join the AP - without any payuments from the WRU and without the use of WRU facilities

er no they can't. There's no way the WRU would allow that. Also they don't use WRU facilities.

What Hammer said and it is far from certain they would win

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

The suggestion is that they will go to court claiming restraint of trade by the WRU and IRB.

would be a nonsense case.  Yes they can join the AP - without any payuments from the WRU and without the use of WRU facilities

er no they can't. There's no way the WRU would allow that. Also they don't use WRU facilities.

I think the point is that the WRU cannot prevent a business (i.e. a region) dealing with another group of businesses (i.e. PRL). There is some truth in TJ'S point that they would need to do without the WRU's money. Whether a share of BT money would compensate for this I do not know.

TJ wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Biltong wrote:what I don't get is how the Regions who play under the auspices of the Welsh rugby Union can have the power to decide whether they want to do their own thing?

The suggestion is that they will go to court claiming restraint of trade by the WRU and IRB.

would be a nonsense case.  Yes they can join the AP - without any payuments from the WRU and without the use of WRU facilities

Maybe, just maybe, the regions feel that they will get by on the TV monies that they'll get from whatever tournament(s) they'll join? Because currently, as I understand it, the only additional money each region gets on top of their current tv money is £1.5m for player release. Not an insignificant amount, but maybe one that could be covered if TV monies were better elsewhere. Only a guess really. It won't happen IMO as the WRU needs to sanction it, which I can't see them doing.

And as Hammer says, I don't think they use WRU facilities. Remember, when they were set up they were set up independently of the WRU - existing businesses told to join forces - so they remain that way in most things. Apart from the Dragons who are 50% WRU owned, but don't ask me how that works. But essentially the WRU wants to control these independent businesses that they chose not to set up/run/control in the first place. It's now come back to bit them to a certain extent.

The WRU CAN stop that. The Regions could try and take them to court but it's not just a business. It's a business that works within the IRB framework. They can't just breach that. The only way a court case would work would be if the WRU couldn't back up their decision. If they were taken to court and the WRU's defence was "The    should do what they're   ing told". Then they would probably lose. If they can show they offered a reasonable offer and were turned down then I don't think they will.

On top of this the RFU still have to approve. And they won't (proabably) for the same reasons they were against the Premiership expanding to 14 a few years ago.

Unless of course a decision was made to do this in a couple of years time. That 'could' happen and would be practical. But it would unleash an unholy Poopie in the meantime

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout....

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/the-blues-are-wobbling_topic38619_page1.html

Cardiff Dave, this also appeared on the Os website, I do not know whether you know this but the 4 Regions Supporters Clubs met yesterday to formulate a strategy IF a decent outcome doesn't prevail at todays meeting, when the link you provided came on the Os forum, the Chairman of the OsSC came on the forum to totally refute that story.