What the hell is going on in Wales?

by Intotouch Tue 10 Dec 2013, 12:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

by Cardiff Dave Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:31 pm

Standulstermen wrote:If that is written by Rees it isn't worth the paper it's written on. I will drag up a Thornley article refuting everything and we can all go round in circles.

What, all of it? Which bits are rubbish with respect to the Welsh civil war?

by Guest Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:33 pm

Griff wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

I think Rodney Parade is owned by NRFC? and the Arms Park by Cardiff Athletics?

You are correct.
I mistakenly read that as Newport and Cardiff rugby.
Having said that I do not see their being any issue with them ignoring the WRU.
On reflection true of the other 2 teams.

The regions have I think, fatal problems with defying the WRU but the Union pulling the plug on the grounds they play at isn't one of them

I agree. I don't share the optimism of some of the regions fans of entering the AP, if it comes to that. If the WRU do take over Blues and Dragons then there won't be any issue with grounds. At least not in the short-term. It would also provide at least two competitive teams for the Rabo, although there is talk of a merge.

You seem pretty sure that there won't be any issues. Do you mean issues in using the current ground, or moving to new grounds? Moving to new grounds, then I agree - piece of cake. Using the existing grounds - depends on what the owners feel and how well the buy out goes. Cardiff Athletic Club have a rule/by law where the team playing at CAP have to be called Cardiff. So setting up a new region would see the same trouble as now - i.e. a re badged Cardiff with the same name.

Newport RFC own Rodney Parade, and Tony Brown is involved somehow (perhaps as owner of Newport RFC). The WRU would surely be charged rent to use it, just as Newport Country are now. And Tony Brown can be petty and play hard ball if he has to. If the WRU do some sort of messy takeover then I can imagine Tony/Newport RFC refusing to let the new team use the facilities, such is the way in Welsh Rugby.

But this all depends on how 'clean' the buy out is. If the WRU essentially says we're starting a new team by cutting funding to the current ones to force them to fold, then the current ground owners will obviously be hacked off. And if it's to be new teams/regions playing elsewhere from current then that will be fine - as long as Pontypridd get a team called Pontypridd playing at the Pontypridd ground (Sardis road). If they're called something else then there will be riots.

Didn't know that about the Cardiff name having to be used, but as stated I think remaining at the grounds may be a short-term solution. I don't know if Cardiff Athletic would grant permission to WRU to use a name which excludes Cardiff on a temporary basis, but even if they didn't then perhaps there's some other possible solution which will allow the grounds to be used? I don't think it would be a huge challenge.
Good point on a clean buy-out. If there is a buy out, I would think it's with a view to setting up a new region, but using the existing players to do so. How this would sit with the stadium owners I don't know, but then if the WRU is to merge Blues and Dragons then perhaps only one of those stadiums is required, and to be paid for at whatever the going rate is. Would stadium owners refuse permission, and take the hit on lost revenue?
The WRU would be foolish to label any new regions with existing club names. They have to learn from the previous horlicks of setting up the regions, and hopefully do so with an identity which will have regional, rather than local, appeal.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Didn't know that about the Cardiff name having to be used, but as stated I think remaining at the grounds may be a short-term solution. I don't know if Cardiff Athletic would grant permission to WRU to use a name which excludes Cardiff on a temporary basis, but even if they didn't then perhaps there's some other possible solution which will allow the grounds to be used? I don't think it would be a huge challenge.
Good point on a clean buy-out. If there is a buy out, I would think it's with a view to setting up a new region, but using the existing players to do so. How this would sit with the stadium owners I don't know, but then if the WRU is to merge Blues and Dragons then perhaps only one of those stadiums is required, and to be paid for at whatever the going rate is. Would stadium owners refuse permission, and take the hit on lost revenue?
The WRU would be foolish to label any new regions with existing club names. They have to learn from the previous horlicks of setting up the regions, and hopefully do so with an identity which will have regional, rather than local, appeal.

Ask Keith Morgan, chairman of CAC and board member of Cardiff RFC.
http://www.cardiffathleticclub.co.uk/contact-us.php

and the word of the day is "covenant".

by SecretFly Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:12 pm

The amount of articles written by English based journalists who don't rightly give a damn, talking about the number of solutions that might leave Ireland, Scotland and Italy in a perilous condition OOOOHHH!!!! Blimey! Scary thought, mate!

If we die, nobody will care. Stop ohh and ahhing the drama of it all, it's embarrassing.

There is no drama. English people want what's best for English club and International rugby. Period. And Welsh regions feel the same way.
Just talk about England (and Welsh regions if you have to) you English based journalists 'coz the "cor blimey, Ireland, Scotland and Italy might loose out a lot if'n they're not careful" is crud 'emotion' coming from heedless hacks.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:13 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Didn't know that about the Cardiff name having to be used, but as stated I think remaining at the grounds may be a short-term solution. I don't know if Cardiff Athletic would grant permission to WRU to use a name which excludes Cardiff on a temporary basis, but even if they didn't then perhaps there's some other possible solution which will allow the grounds to be used? I don't think it would be a huge challenge.
Good point on a clean buy-out. If there is a buy out, I would think it's with a view to setting up a new region, but using the existing players to do so. How this would sit with the stadium owners I don't know, but then if the WRU is to merge Blues and Dragons then perhaps only one of those stadiums is required, and to be paid for at whatever the going rate is. Would stadium owners refuse permission, and take the hit on lost revenue?
The WRU would be foolish to label any new regions with existing club names. They have to learn from the previous horlicks of setting up the regions, and hopefully do so with an identity which will have regional, rather than local, appeal.

Ask Keith Morgan, chairman of CAC and board member of Cardiff RFC.
http://www.cardiffathleticclub.co.uk/contact-us.php

and the word of the day is "covenant".

So CAP is the Park of the Covenant?

Tumbleweed

by Cardiff Dave Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:16 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

So CAP is the Park of the Covenant?

Yes, but this is no time for levity.

by Guest Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:31 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Didn't know that about the Cardiff name having to be used, but as stated I think remaining at the grounds may be a short-term solution. I don't know if Cardiff Athletic would grant permission to WRU to use a name which excludes Cardiff on a temporary basis, but even if they didn't then perhaps there's some other possible solution which will allow the grounds to be used? I don't think it would be a huge challenge.
Good point on a clean buy-out. If there is a buy out, I would think it's with a view to setting up a new region, but using the existing players to do so. How this would sit with the stadium owners I don't know, but then if the WRU is to merge Blues and Dragons then perhaps only one of those stadiums is required, and to be paid for at whatever the going rate is. Would stadium owners refuse permission, and take the hit on lost revenue?
The WRU would be foolish to label any new regions with existing club names. They have to learn from the previous horlicks of setting up the regions, and hopefully do so with an identity which will have regional, rather than local, appeal.

Ask Keith Morgan, chairman of CAC and board member of Cardiff RFC.
http://www.cardiffathleticclub.co.uk/contact-us.php

and the word of the day is "covenant".

Would prefer to wait until we actually know if there is a need for new regions before asking questions. Some history at the Cardiff Arms Park though. Just from reading some of the info' in the link you provided, I can understand any reluctance to remove the name Cardiff from any new regional team.
Bit of bad history between the Blues, and present management it appears:

"The recently announced decision to move the ‘Blues’ side to share the new Cardiff City Football Club Stadium currently being built at Leckwith was an executive decision taken by the Cardiff RFC Ltd. Board. The Management Committee of the CAC was not consulted in the process of reaching the decision and had no means of influencing the conclusion reached by the Board. "

Now that the Blues are back playing there I'm sure that any differences have been resolved. If there actually was bad history.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:43 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Would prefer to wait until we actually know if there is a need for new regions before asking questions. Some history at the Cardiff Arms Park though. Just from reading some of the info' in the link you provided, I can understand any reluctance to remove the name Cardiff from any new regional team.
Bit of bad history between the Blues, and present management it appears:

"The recently announced decision to move the ‘Blues’ side to share the new Cardiff City Football Club Stadium currently being built at Leckwith was an executive decision taken by the Cardiff RFC Ltd. Board. The Management Committee of the CAC was not consulted in the process of reaching the decision and had no means of influencing the conclusion reached by the Board. "

Now that the Blues are back playing there I'm sure that any differences have been resolved. If there actually was bad history.

Umm, a little yes, but let's not go there.

by Casartelli Thu 12 Dec 2013, 3:05 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Didn't know that about the Cardiff name having to be used, but as stated I think remaining at the grounds may be a short-term solution. I don't know if Cardiff Athletic would grant permission to WRU to use a name which excludes Cardiff on a temporary basis, but even if they didn't then perhaps there's some other possible solution which will allow the grounds to be used? I don't think it would be a huge challenge.
Good point on a clean buy-out. If there is a buy out, I would think it's with a view to setting up a new region, but using the existing players to do so. How this would sit with the stadium owners I don't know, but then if the WRU is to merge Blues and Dragons then perhaps only one of those stadiums is required, and to be paid for at whatever the going rate is. Would stadium owners refuse permission, and take the hit on lost revenue?
The WRU would be foolish to label any new regions with existing club names. They have to learn from the previous horlicks of setting up the regions, and hopefully do so with an identity which will have regional, rather than local, appeal.

Ask Keith Morgan, chairman of CAC and board member of Cardiff RFC.
http://www.cardiffathleticclub.co.uk/contact-us.php

and the word of the day is "covenant".

Would prefer to wait until we actually know if there is a need for new regions before asking questions. Some history at the Cardiff Arms Park though. Just from reading some of the info' in the link you provided, I can understand any reluctance to remove the name Cardiff from any new regional team......

Not that they are old fashioned or narrow-minded or anything.

by Guest Thu 12 Dec 2013, 3:07 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Would prefer to wait until we actually know if there is a need for new regions before asking questions. Some history at the Cardiff Arms Park though. Just from reading some of the info' in the link you provided, I can understand any reluctance to remove the name Cardiff from any new regional team.
Bit of bad history between the Blues, and present management it appears:

"The recently announced decision to move the ‘Blues’ side to share the new Cardiff City Football Club Stadium currently being built at Leckwith was an executive decision taken by the Cardiff RFC Ltd. Board. The Management Committee of the CAC was not consulted in the process of reaching the decision and had no means of influencing the conclusion reached by the Board. "

Now that the Blues are back playing there I'm sure that any differences have been resolved. If there actually was bad history.

Umm, a little yes, but let's not go there.

I don't need to go there, so I will stay censored

by Bluedragon Thu 12 Dec 2013, 4:56 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 12 Dec 2013, 5:13 pm

Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

by doctornickolas Thu 12 Dec 2013, 9:23 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

The Blues signing a 25 year lease on a gamble that Cardiff City Stadium would pull in the crowds is just typical of how poorly the regions are managed. And they didn't even have get out clause built in. It was only the fact that Cardiff FC wanted them out as well because they were wrecking the pitch that meant they could be released. If Cardiff FC had stuck to their guns then the Blues would be bust by now anyway. No wonder the WRU do not want to throw good money after bad. I wouldn't trust the regional management to run a sweet shop.

by Standulstermen Thu 12 Dec 2013, 10:13 pm

That is to mind why any additional funding has to be agreed with a degree of accountability. Maybe if there was the increase (for the sake of argument an extra million per region) that said money had to be used on contracts and said contracts were negotiated with WRU input

by Pyleboy65 Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:37 pm

I don't normally side with the WRU but in this instance I feel that they are in the right - the management of the regions have proved time and time again that they have no idea on how to run a business. This also extends to the clubs with Pontypridd, Neath and Llanelli all going bust at one time or other. I live near Pontypridd and as the old saying goes "they couldn't organise a P*** up in a brewery".

At least the WRU seem to have an idea of what they are doing when it comes to money and I think they are quite right not to give the regions any more control when the current boards are in charge.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:39 pm

Rumours of one of the regions siding with WRU - anything more on this or still just hearsay in the Muppet?

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:46 pm

I've heard rumours of the Blues and Scarlets wavering and I've also heard denials of any wavering. Nothing concrete and it would suit the WRU to generate some inter-regional bickering.

I'm worried for the Dragons as we're 50% owned by the WRU.

by XR Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:52 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

The Blues signing a 25 year lease on a gamble that Cardiff City Stadium would pull in the crowds is just typical of how poorly the regions are managed. And they didn't even have get out clause built in. It was only the fact that Cardiff FC wanted them out as well because they were wrecking the pitch that meant they could be released. If Cardiff FC had stuck to their guns then the Blues would be bust by now anyway. No wonder the WRU do not want to throw good money after bad. I wouldn't trust the regional management to run a sweet shop.

And there's me thinking the move was provoked by a failed bid for CAP by PT.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 1:16 pm

gcBlues wrote:

And there's me thinking the move was provoked by a failed bid for CAP by PT.

Shush mun. You've spoilt my little game now.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 1:19 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

The Blues signing a 25 year lease on a gamble that Cardiff City Stadium would pull in the crowds is just typical of how poorly the regions are managed. And they didn't even have get out clause built in. It was only the fact that Cardiff FC wanted them out as well because they were wrecking the pitch that meant they could be released. If Cardiff FC had stuck to their guns then the Blues would be bust by now anyway. No wonder the WRU do not want to throw good money after bad. I wouldn't trust the regional management to run a sweet shop.

Aye that old chestnut. Build it and they will come! Pull the other one Pete.
Seriously though do you reckon there was a method to the madness and who was to gain from Cardiff bloos vacating the Arms Park?

by XR Fri 13 Dec 2013, 1:21 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
gcBlues wrote:

And there's me thinking the move was provoked by a failed bid for CAP by PT.

Shush mun. You've spoilt my little game now.

Haha, sorry Dai!

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 1:34 pm

Standulstermen wrote:That is to mind why any additional funding has to be agreed with a degree of accountability. Maybe if there was the increase (for the sake of argument an extra million per region) that said money had to be used on contracts and said contracts were negotiated with WRU input

With regards to Cardiff flushing away cash while at CCS, I would assume that it wasn't PA money. Think it probably was PT who took the hit and the club is a tad further in debt to him.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 13 Dec 2013, 2:12 pm

I haven't got a link for this - I've nicked it from Scarlet Fever - but it's a great article that deserves to be read by as many people as possible:

Andrew Collins wrote:A Brief History of Regional Rugby and the PA

Past; Present; Future?

No WRU negotiation; 3 new regions; Sam and Leigh to leave. Even by Welsh rugby’s standards, last night’s ‘showdown meeting’ was farcical.

Reaction to last night’s meeting has been explosive on social media, with the #UniteAndFight regional support message dominating posts all day. Never before has the WRU been called into question like this in the public gaze. For years, they have fought an aggressive PR battle with the four Welsh regions, and won hands down, but as murky details emerge about the obsessive and ruthless union, Wales is finally seeing the truth.

As this story continues to grow and develop, and speculation mounts as to whether there even is a future in Welsh rugby, here is a brief history as to how this mess came to be.

When the 5 new regional teams in Wales were announced over a decade ago, the aim was a clear one which represented the shared needs of the whole game in the country; to make Wales a successful rugby nation at both club and international level. It was rushed, poorly managed, unimaginative and extremely unclear, but at very least there was a genuine desire for all parties to pull together towards this shared goal.

Shortly after, they shocked Northern Hemisphere rugby winning their first recent Grand Slam in 2005, it looked as though a shiny new era was on the horizon. But somewhere along the way, international rugby became the focus, egos replaced ambitions and success was redefined.

No one can question the triumph of the Welsh national team since the formation of regional rugby. Four 6 Nations crowns, three Grand Slams, a Rugby World Cup Semi-Final and consistently matching the Southern Hemisphere’s big 3. Off the pitch there’s been massive success too, with income from tickets and merchandise at an all-time high – the WRU have been able to reinvest millions to redecorate their corporate facilities, while still paying off the historical Millennium Stadium debt ahead of schedule.

But all of this has come at a significant cost to club rugby.

The Celtic League has failed to inspire the vast majority of fans to attend on a regular basis, with qualification to European rugby all-too-easy, no threat of relegation, too many televised matches, inconsistent kick off times and, most significantly, an apathy which existed in both the fans and players as stars are rested weeks ahead of ‘Team Wales’ matches.

The regions have been forced into a position where they can’t make any more revenue, as the competition they play in isn’t attractive to fans, sponsors or lucrative TV deals.

Then there’s the Participation Agreement.

When the PA was signed between the WRU and the 4 regions five years ago, it seemed a fair way to compensate teams for losing their best players during the Celtic League season. The regions were starting to pay big bucks to keep their new Welsh stars, following their international success, and the WRU were helping to support them. Like the formation of the regions, it was messy and poorly done, but it felt as though all parties were doing so for the right reasons.

Yet since then, all the regions have done is compromise. The Union have insisted on longer preparation time with the players ahead of Wales matches, extra rest time following international competitions, less risk when players are carrying injuries and even scheduling players’ operations and surgeries around their fixture list. They have wrestled control of the players away from their actual employers, citing ‘the greater good’ as their reason for doing so.

The current PA contract is up at the end of this season, and it seems only fair that the WRU addresses the imbalances. One of the biggest issues is how much money the WRU should pay to gain almost unlimited access to players at the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets. During the past 5 years, player contracts in Wales rose immensely as Welsh stars become sought after all over the world, yet despite these rising costs, the WRU didn’t increase their contributions to match the rate of inflation.

And now, as the WRU attempt to ‘negotiate’ the regions into re-signing the PA, all they’re offering is exactly the same funding as was in place 5 years ago, meaning the WRU’s compensation package to the regions will not have increased in real terms in 10 years.

Many people are incorrectly seeing this as a war between two selfish entities unwilling to compromise, but that simply isn’t true. The problem lies with the WRU and their ruthless pursuit to gain absolute control of Welsh rugby. Following years of being chocked and strangled into the financial mess we find ourselves in today, the regions’ united defiance is an inspiring breath of fresh air.

So as the regions attempt to join the Aviva and the WRU claim they will create 3 new clubs, be sure that the blame here lies squarely at the feet of the Union. They have forgotten that the core values of a successful Welsh national squad are underpinned by a harmonious and fruitful club game. If the WRU suffocate the regions to death this year, it will be the end of professional club rugby in Wales forever.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 2:16 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I haven't got a link for this - I've nicked it from Scarlet Fever - but it's a great article that deserves to be read by as many people as possible:

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s170/st184435.htm

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 13 Dec 2013, 2:27 pm

Thanks. It's a cracking article, especially the way he points out just how inflexible the WRU has been over funding.

by Guest Fri 13 Dec 2013, 2:57 pm

"Consistently matching the Southern Hemisphere's big 3"

Say wha'?!

Good article though. Sums up pretty much how I feel. It seems to be all take take take from the union. People always seem to point to the money the union gives the regions. But when you look into it you find that they are 'giving' the regions the TV monies that is rightfully theirs and £1.5m for player release, a practice employed to a greater extent/amount in other countries. So we really are the poor relation among the top nations.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 13 Dec 2013, 3:16 pm

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21837&start=3280#p568599

Leinsterfans and Planet rugby meet on 606.

Page 165 of a general thread on the feud in European Rugby.

Read the last page and a half as it refers to Welsh current situation and contains posts from a Welsh ex member here.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 7:36 pm

Rick O'Shea presents Radio Wales Sport, with all the sports news of the day, big name interviews and live commentary from the Heineken Cup - Ospreys v Castres and Glasgow v Blues.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpl9l

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 7:47 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpl9l
Interesting views from a Scottish player (didn't catch his name) on the current state of affairs.
Mike philips interviewed now Dicomidis.
Jamie Roberts interview coming up.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 7:57 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpl9l
Jamie Roberts interview coming up.

Wrong Jamie. I think it was Robinson.

by HammerofThunor Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:05 pm

JB was always a sound poster. Got to agree with his comments on the regions. For the last 10 years the talk has been about how the regions were set up shoddily. Do they need burning down to be built again?

by Artful_Dodger Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:06 pm

I'd forgotten about JB1973 - would love to have him back here.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:JB was always a sound poster. Got to agree with his comments on the regions. For the last 10 years the talk has been about how the regions were set up shoddily. Do they need burning down to be built again?

Cardiff and Llanelli stood alone. Regionalism was and still is a sham.

by Bluedragon Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:43 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
doctornickolas wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

The Blues signing a 25 year lease on a gamble that Cardiff City Stadium would pull in the crowds is just typical of how poorly the regions are managed. And they didn't even have get out clause built in. It was only the fact that Cardiff FC wanted them out as well because they were wrecking the pitch that meant they could be released. If Cardiff FC had stuck to their guns then the Blues would be bust by now anyway. No wonder the WRU do not want to throw good money after bad. I wouldn't trust the regional management to run a sweet shop.

Aye that old chestnut. Build it and they will come! Pull the other one Pete.
Seriously though do you reckon there was a method to the madness and who was to gain from Cardiff bloos vacating the Arms Park?

At the time I applauded the ambition - I though they were genuinely aspiring to be a European Superclub with big crowds. Northhampton ahve created a big fan base as have Leinster and munster, so why not in Cardiff. Sadly the marketing was so appalling it was always going to be a disaster. The move was controversial - and they put prices up ! Shouldve made it dirt cheap to get it to fill the place and create a habit of going. They were rumoured to be paying CCFC £75 K a game with a break even crowd of £10K, and only getting 10 % of food and beer revenue. It was interesting that after announcing the return to CAP, Norster resigned as CEO and the marketing director also left. They were a commerical shambles. Richard Holland posted a small profit in his first season in charge and has been innovative and tackled some of the foundational stuff. I have been quietly impressed.

by Cardiff Dave Sat 14 Dec 2013, 12:29 am

Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
doctornickolas wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yup. Thats why they left and the Soccer club released them from the 25 year contract. They would go bust and then the soccer club would get nothing. And the big clear out of well paid players.

So they're not losing millions any longer. In fact Richard Holland said a profit was on the cards.
What were the reasons for moving to CCS?

The Blues signing a 25 year lease on a gamble that Cardiff City Stadium would pull in the crowds is just typical of how poorly the regions are managed. And they didn't even have get out clause built in. It was only the fact that Cardiff FC wanted them out as well because they were wrecking the pitch that meant they could be released. If Cardiff FC had stuck to their guns then the Blues would be bust by now anyway. No wonder the WRU do not want to throw good money after bad. I wouldn't trust the regional management to run a sweet shop.

Aye that old chestnut. Build it and they will come! Pull the other one Pete.
Seriously though do you reckon there was a method to the madness and who was to gain from Cardiff bloos vacating the Arms Park?

At the time I applauded the ambition - I though they were genuinely aspiring to be a European Superclub with big crowds. Northhampton ahve created a big fan base as have Leinster and munster, so why not in Cardiff. Sadly the marketing was so appalling it was always going to be a disaster. The move was controversial - and they put prices up ! Shouldve made it dirt cheap to get it to fill the place and create a habit of going. They were rumoured to be paying CCFC £75 K a game with a break even crowd of £10K, and only getting 10 % of food and beer revenue. It was interesting that after announcing the return to CAP, Norster resigned as CEO and the marketing director also left. They were a commerical shambles. Richard Holland posted a small profit in his first season in charge and has been innovative and tackled some of the foundational stuff. I have been quietly impressed.

BD, it was all about CAP basically and its very valuable city centre location, location, location. Get it?

by maestegmafia Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:53 am

Griff wrote:

Good article though. Sums up pretty much how I feel. It seems to be all take take take from the union. People always seem to point to the money the union gives the regions. But when you look into it you find that they are 'giving' the regions the TV monies that is rightfully theirs and £1.5m for player release, a practice employed to a greater extent/amount in other countries. So we really are the poor relation among the top nations.

Griff

The WRU stipulated exactly what the regions would get when they signed the PA last time. They had a guaranteed amount, if they need more money they need to generate cash themselves rather than ask for handouts.

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013, 8:02 am

They're not asking for handouts as such Maes. All the top nations have funding for player release as I understand it. Remember, the WRU are asking for extra release so of course the unions would charge for this as they need to get other players to cover their absence outside of the normal international window. That's not a handout.

So, they get a fee for their players being away for longer than they should and they get their own tv monies. That's all the WRU fund them.

And yes, they did sign up to it so they had themselves to blame. But looking at the snippets of info about the currently wrangling and how they're being threatened with being wound up, taken to court, having a gagging order imposed on them, then it suggests to me that similar happened last time. Perhaps the arm was twisted 5 years ago to sign the poor agreement (poor in relation to other unions) in a similar manner as now.

by Coleman Sat 14 Dec 2013, 10:50 am

For those of you in the UK, this was on Sports Wales last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/25374811

by **Notch** Sat 14 Dec 2013, 12:28 pm

The WRU are crap business partners for the IRFU, SRU and FIR- RRW likewise.

We're trying to negotiate a new sponsorship deal for the Pro12 right now and they're throwing this up. I understand that they want more Union control but why didn't they take it when they were setting up professional rugby in the first place in Wales. They need to fund their sides to the same extent as we and the other unions do to ensure a high quality Pro12. The WRU more than anyone have been guilty of undermining the Pro12 with their extra internationals and their apathy about players leaving the regions and that competition being strong is necessary for all the Celtic and Italian Unions.

How is it we can afford central contracts and four strong provinces and Wales can afford nothing right now? They have an extra test match and the money doesn't trickle down at all. I understand why they don't want to throw good money after bad money because the regions strike me as having been run exceptionally poorly- especially with regards to decisions being made about grounds like Cardiff City Stadium and Parc Y Scarlets. But ffs, if they allow the regions to die and set-up new regions who is going to support them? The Welsh public are already famously fickle and reluctant to get off their couch and support professional rugby below international level. Ospreys got 6000 for the French champions at home the other night. With the degree of controversy an all-out civil war will provoke the only people who actually care about supporting the Welsh regions will be alienated and not bother with these new teams.

If the WRU let the regions die, they're showing extreme negligence towards the Pro12 and the other Unions they are in business with. They've signed up to provide 4 sides to this competition and its hard to believe that they can meet that commitment with any degree of quality without the current regions. It's also very hard to believe that they can set-up four decent regions for cheaper than what it would cost to fund the current ones appropriately! So they need to pull their finger out and start dealing with some of these grievances before they jeopardise the future of everyone.

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013, 12:47 pm

Totally agree Notch. Yes, the regions haven't been run brilliantly by the regions themselves. But all have scraped by on a shoestring and have managed to keep from going bust (although there have been a few helping hands along the way). The only one to my knowledge that has always remained financially stable is the Dragons, but you can see what that level of frugal spending, conservative approach and business acumen actually buys you - sweet FA for 10 years slog.

The problem I guess is this: if the fans don't come, for whatever reason (and let's be honest we've a long list of supposed reasons), how do the regions do better? It's not like they can diversify and sell a new product. They only have one thing to sell, and that's rugby. But the one avenue available is the national governing body who could step in, improve investment, so that facilities improve, players are retained, coaching teams are of a higher standard, etc. I feel that the regions have actually been in decline for a number of years now as they stagnate and struggle by being unable to grow their business.

Of course, the other left field option is to find a benefactor who is happy to invest/waste millions. But from a sport development point of view this isn't sustainable. To develop long term you need sustainability and a knowledge that the money will be there for x number of years to come so that the player development pathways are not compromised.

by kingjohn7 Sat 14 Dec 2013, 1:57 pm

Notch, the Irish and Scottish Unions are funding their own teams. Yes the WRU need to do something but why should they fund something that isnt theirs (talking from their viewpoint here). Would IRFU fund the provinces to the same extent if they were privately owned/runned?
"But ffs, if they allow the regions to die and set-up new regions who is going to support them?" Maybe they are thinking, it cant really get any worse so why not set up some true 'Regions' run by them, it could work a long way down the road.
Must say this pretty depressing.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Sat 14 Dec 2013, 2:52 pm

I had a conversation with my mate on the way down to PYS earlier this year. I was bemoaning the lack of marketing by the Scarlets around the region. He said "Have a guess what our marketing budget is." I said I don't know, about £200k?" He said "We haven't got one." Other than sending the players out to schools and clubs the Scarlets depend on the media for their publicity. They don't do marketing as such (apart from the odd token gesture).

This year we've managed to put together a pack that can win some possession ... but we've lost or are losing George North, JD2, Priestland and Easterby's talking about the ambition to hang on to Scott Williams.

Most of the Pro12 games are on BBC/S4C. We've won 1 out of the last 9 HEC games.

Scarlets Pro12/HEC home attendance is about 6,715 so far this season.

Glad to see the laws of causality haven't been broken! I think that's a decent attendance when you take all the ongoing picard

into account Laugh

Seriously though, you can see where the problems lie.

Hand on heart the only sustainable future I can see for Welsh rugby is this:

West/East/North teams at Liberty/CCS/Parc Eirias funded £7m/£7m/£3m centralised contracts

Welsh Prem feeding regions (Llanelli/Neath/Swansea/Aberavon/Carmarthen/Bridgend/Cardiff/Ponty/Newport/Ebbw+2 North Wales) - games played 2:30pm Saturday only 1 televised, the rest highlights, a decent sponsorship deal (hope against hope!) and salary cap of £750k PA

North/West/East divisions with amateur participation agreement - no more pay for play if you play for Abercwmcabbage in West division 7!

by Breadvan Sat 14 Dec 2013, 3:04 pm

If thats the case Tbs, I can see the 'West' team being based at your place, the PYS. Good excuse for the Swans to kick us out the Liberty...

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013, 3:38 pm

Totally biased Scarlet, I'm sure you're not WUMMING, but are you really suggesting no prem feeder club for the whole of Gwent?
Fair enough no region, but no prem club? Baring in mind that Gwent has the highest number of clubs per area and is one of the most densely populated areas of Wales. Doesn't make sense to me to have no prem club representing that area.

by Luckless Pedestrian Sat 14 Dec 2013, 4:52 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Griff wrote:

Good article though. Sums up pretty much how I feel. It seems to be all take take take from the union. People always seem to point to the money the union gives the regions. But when you look into it you find that they are 'giving' the regions the TV monies that is rightfully theirs and £1.5m for player release, a practice employed to a greater extent/amount in other countries. So we really are the poor relation among the top nations.

Griff

The WRU stipulated exactly what the regions would get when they signed the PA last time. They had a guaranteed amount, if they need more money they need to generate cash themselves rather than ask for handouts.

Yes, a guaranteed amount - a frozen sum - in return for ever more access to the regions' international players. And now the WRU expect the regions to sign up to a new agreement that would see that pay freeze continue all the way to 2018.

Gratitude is probably the wrong word, but the WRU needs to remember that without the regions' players, there is no Team Wales. It's actually the worst and most devious of back-handed compliments that they've been persuading Test players not to sign new regional contracts.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Sat 14 Dec 2013, 6:39 pm

Sorry guys. Should have read - llanelli, swansea, neath, aberavon, carmarthen, bridgend, pontypridd, cardiff, newport, ebbw vale + 2 north wales teams

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:14 pm

Cheers Scarlet! Like I said, I was sure you weren't on the WUM! I can see a rationale for only one region in SE Wales (and the capital has it's obvious advantages), but I'd agree on a prem team or two from Gwent too.

by Cari Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:14 pm

This is just my tuppence worth, and I'm probably not saying anything new. Anyway, in my view, all this hoo-ha boils down to money and who is in charge of the purse strings. I imagine that the WRU makes most of its money from internationals and the Welsh team as a brand through merchandising, match tickets etc and therefore they don't really give a monkeys about the regions, as the regions don't appear to be as lucrative or profitable. As long as Wales keep doing well internationally, then the WRU is making money and paying their own debts. This attitude seems to have filtered down to some players in that to play in the Welsh shirt means more than that of a region - hence they will move elsewhere if the wages are better and they can still play for Wales. That in itself could stem from the fact that the four Welsh regions were created for professional rugby and territorially didn't pre-exist (like the Irish provinces for instance). The way in which the four regions were created as they are now, seems to put off some rugby traditionalists and alienate other supporters. On top of that, all this arguing and pishing about isn't helping the cause either, because it's just upsetting the fans who want to support their region and their country. I'm sure many Welsh rugby fans would love to see their favourite Welsh internationals play week in week out, but that's becoming increasingly difficult because the top players are leaving Wales (understandably so) and some can't afford the TV packages on offer to watch them play on TV. On top of that, the fans in Wales have to watch their region dwindle in big competitions like the Heino, so to some, it's not even worth purchasing an expensive TV package or season ticket to watch their local region when they can support a grassroots team instead.

I really can't suggest any solutions myself - I just don't know much about it, but from what I can tell, rugby (like many professional sports) is becoming more about marketing a brand and making money, than loyalties, traditions and territory. It is this divide that is upsetting rugby in Wales.

Duw, it's hard being a Welsh rugby fan sometimes. Merry Christmas... What the hell is going on in Wales? - Page 3 1054138444

What the hell is going on in Wales? - Page 3 1054138444

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:28 pm

I think you're right Cari. But why is it always us (Wales) in the doldrums?! It's as if we need to have a bit of drama and infighting or it's just not normal!

On your marketing and branding point, I agree. I think this is the reason they went for the regional 'things' that they did, I,e. based on pre-existing stand alone clubs and partnerships. Much easier to market something that sort of already exists e.g. Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli than 4 brand new entities with no existing fan base. However I'm now wondering whether, if they had the money to do so in the first place, whether 4 brand new 'no ties' proper regions would have been a better way to go. Certainly harder to get off the ground but 10 years on they may have avoided all of the in fighting and problems we're now seeing. Who knows!

by bedfordwelsh Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:36 pm

Loyalty went out of the window as soon as the game went proffessional and players had to earn a proper living from it.

In the amateur days you would very rarely see someone from Ponty go to Cardiff or Swansea to Llanelli etc etc but now if club X comes in with big offer they go and who can blame them.

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