What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU  would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

It's called paraphrasing. You have regularly intimated that it is not possible owing to contractual obligations. I disagree with that point of view. I think it's possible if the other parties are willing to renegotiate, which I also believe is possible.

I don't believe it was RRW who negotiated a deal for the RCC. I believe they think they will have more money from it and are consequently amenable to the PRL offer to join. I don't think you managed to demonstrate RRW's negotiating prowess I'm afraid. As for whether or not any other unions would be better off under alternative arrangements for european competition, the devil is in the detail. Yes there are proposals out there, but since this was unilaterally negotiated by PRL (utterly beyond their remit) I'll hold my breath on exact revenue allocation until we see a fully multilateral and completed contract.

Hope that helps   

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU  would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

It's called paraphrasing. You have regularly intimated that it is not possible owing to contractual obligations. I disagree with that point of view. I think it's possible if the other parties are willing to renegotiate, which I also believe is possible.

I don't believe it was RRW who negotiated a deal for the RCC. I believe they think they will have more money from it and are consequently amenable to the PRL offer to join. I don't think you managed to demonstrate RRW's negotiating prowess I'm afraid. As for whether or not any other unions would be better off under alternative arrangements for european competition, the devil is in the detail. Yes there are proposals out there, but since this was unilaterally negotiated by PRL (utterly beyond their remit) I'll hold my breath on exact revenue allocation until we see a fully multilateral and completed contract.

Hope that helps   

TBS, if you followed things, you would have seen when the PRL negotiated their TV deal for the RCC the Irish and Welsh would have been aprox. the same and the Scottish would be worse off as the Scottish gets money for 3 teams and they now only have 2., in their latest communication RRW state the 4 Welsh Regions would be £5M better off, the Irish would be better off and the Scottish basically the same, therefore a NEW DEAL has been negotiated, which is something the WRU failed to do.
It has also been reported in the Irish press, that they would be deeply unhappy with less teams of vastly inferior standard, therefore a number reduction would more than likely be refused.

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU  would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

It's called paraphrasing. You have regularly intimated that it is not possible owing to contractual obligations. I disagree with that point of view. I think it's possible if the other parties are willing to renegotiate, which I also believe is possible.

I don't believe it was RRW who negotiated a deal for the RCC. I believe they think they will have more money from it and are consequently amenable to the PRL offer to join. I don't think you managed to demonstrate RRW's negotiating prowess I'm afraid. As for whether or not any other unions would be better off under alternative arrangements for european competition, the devil is in the detail. Yes there are proposals out there, but since this was unilaterally negotiated by PRL (utterly beyond their remit) I'll hold my breath on exact revenue allocation until we see a fully multilateral and completed contract.

Hope that helps   

TBS, if you followed things, you would have seen when the PRL negotiated their TV deal for the RCC the Irish and Welsh would have been aprox. the same and the Scottish would be worse off as the Scottish gets money for 3 teams and they now only have 2., in their latest communication RRW state the 4 Welsh Regions would be £5M better off, the Irish would be better off and the Scottish basically the same, therefore a NEW DEAL has been negotiated, which is something the WRU failed to do.
It has also been reported in the Irish press, that they would be deeply unhappy with less teams of vastly inferior standard, therefore a number reduction would more than likely be refused.

  

You're really tangling the threads of your argument.

So it wasn't RRW that negotiated then was it?

... also why would these teams be inferior? Like I said if the WRU offered decent contracts to around a half of the current pro players and instigated a "Gatlands Law" policy then we'd be talking about the best players we've got distilled into fewer teams. We've been in this situation before when the Celtic Warriors folded. Of course the IRFU would be unhappy with "inferior" teams ... but that's not a definitive outcome anyway. This is all up in the air.

Look, the point I'm making, which I think you're failing to grasp is that I'm speculating about possibilities. I have written on this forum what I think would be the most sustainable solution. I am not even advocating any particular outcome other than dialogue between the WRU and RRW leading to a lasting solution. I have indeed been following the situation. Most likely outcome at present is RRW join the AP .... eventually leaving that when PRL decide they do want a bit of European action and that there is no room for the Welsh anymore. That's when they'll go belly up. Either that or the WRU will block them successfully (in the courts) and they are forced back to the fold. At that point they will find the WRU are calling the shots as they do not have to nominate them for cross-border competitions (same thing will happen just a few years later if the are allowed to join the AP). Belly up again. With my pragmatic hat on I think it's time for RRW to cut their losses and do the honourable thing. Not what I ever dreamed would happen or ever wanted. Trouble is if they don't Welsh rugby will suffer from a long drawn out and damaging death to the regions.

Very interesting article in the Western Fail: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-crisis-rugby-clubs-6468100

Lots of advocates of central contracts around the club scene ... and criticism of the WRU. Conclusion - big blydi mess.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU  would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

It's called paraphrasing. You have regularly intimated that it is not possible owing to contractual obligations. I disagree with that point of view. I think it's possible if the other parties are willing to renegotiate, which I also believe is possible.

I don't believe it was RRW who negotiated a deal for the RCC. I believe they think they will have more money from it and are consequently amenable to the PRL offer to join. I don't think you managed to demonstrate RRW's negotiating prowess I'm afraid. As for whether or not any other unions would be better off under alternative arrangements for european competition, the devil is in the detail. Yes there are proposals out there, but since this was unilaterally negotiated by PRL (utterly beyond their remit) I'll hold my breath on exact revenue allocation until we see a fully multilateral and completed contract.

Hope that helps   

TBS, if you followed things, you would have seen when the PRL negotiated their TV deal for the RCC the Irish and Welsh would have been aprox. the same and the Scottish would be worse off as the Scottish gets money for 3 teams and they now only have 2., in their latest communication RRW state the 4 Welsh Regions would be £5M better off, the Irish would be better off and the Scottish basically the same, therefore a NEW DEAL has been negotiated, which is something the WRU failed to do.
It has also been reported in the Irish press, that they would be deeply unhappy with less teams of vastly inferior standard, therefore a number reduction would more than likely be refused.

  

You're really tangling the threads of your argument.

So it wasn't RRW that negotiated then was it?

... also why would these teams be inferior? Like I said if the WRU offered decent contracts to around a half of the current pro players and instigated a "Gatlands Law" policy then we'd be talking about the best players we've got distilled into fewer teams. We've been in this situation before when the Celtic Warriors folded. Of course the IRFU would be unhappy with "inferior" teams ... but that's not a definitive outcome anyway. This is all up in the air.

Look, the point I'm making, which I think you're failing to grasp is that I'm speculating about possibilities. I have written on this forum what I think would be the most sustainable solution. I am not even advocating any particular outcome other than dialogue between the WRU and RRW leading to a lasting solution. I have indeed been following the situation. Most likely outcome at present is RRW join the AP .... eventually leaving that when PRL decide they do want a bit of European action and that there is no room for the Welsh anymore. That's when they'll go belly up. Either that or the WRU will block them successfully (in the courts) and they are forced back to the fold. At that point they will find the WRU are calling the shots as they do not have to nominate them for cross-border competitions (same thing will happen just a few years later if the are allowed to join the AP). Belly up again. With my pragmatic hat on I think it's time for RRW to cut their losses and do the honourable thing. Not what I ever dreamed would happen or ever wanted. Trouble is if they don't Welsh rugby will suffer from a long drawn out and damaging death to the regions.

Very interesting article in the Western Fail: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-crisis-rugby-clubs-6468100

Lots of advocates of central contracts around the club scene ... and criticism of the WRU. Conclusion - big blydi mess.

TBS, the new contract with the £5M and extra for the Irish and Scots was negotiated by RRW, if I didn't make that obvious I apologise, then again that was rather obvious as it was in the recent RRW statement and the 4 CEOs mentioned them in the half time talks on BBC and S4C.
As for the Eastern Fail article, 3 of the clubs mentioned said they have been misrepresented and a number of other clubs were contacted but as they didn't conform to the WRU viewpoint they were not quoted.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/210227.html

In the latest twist to the worsening Welsh rugby civil war the WRU is considering a contingency plan which would see Lions captain Sam Warburton, Leigh Halfpenny, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Rhys Priestland and Scott Williams signed to central deals allowing them to play for English clubs on a loan deal. The plan was revealed when the players' agents were asked where their clients would be playing rugby next season.

The WRU's mooted plans to move players across the border would aim to keep them match-fit for Wales duty and receive competitive action without continuing the exodus to France.

Seriously?

To be fair this sounds very much like a story hyped by the Regions themselves, and if there is truth behind it most likley one of those "Ok lets consider every possibility " suggestions rather than a serious aim.

But this is more evidence of just how badly things have fallen apart between the union and regions. I really cant see them still existing in the same form next season.

All because senior figures at the WRU want to protect their own power.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/210227.html

In the latest twist to the worsening Welsh rugby civil war the WRU is considering a contingency plan which would see Lions captain Sam Warburton, Leigh Halfpenny, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Rhys Priestland and Scott Williams signed to central deals allowing them to play for English clubs on a loan deal. The plan was revealed when the players' agents were asked where their clients would be playing rugby next season.

The WRU's mooted plans to move players across the border would aim to keep them match-fit for Wales duty and receive competitive action without continuing the exodus to France.

Seriously?

To be fair this sounds very much like a story hyped by the Regions themselves, and if there is truth behind it most likley one of those "Ok lets consider every possibility " suggestions rather than a serious aim.

But this is more evidence of just how badly things have fallen apart between the union and regions. I really cant see them still existing in the same form next season.

All because senior figures at the WRU want to protect their own power.

I don't think it is much different between the clubs in England and France and their respective unions. Harmony only lasts a limited period. We should have all followed the Irish/Kiwi model .

Its very different. The RFU is not actively seeking alternatives to the premiership clubs and isntead pushing a deal which gives them what they want. The French Union quickly negotiated a deal with their clubs to get them to sign up to the HC.
Yes theres bound to be some pain in the future again but the situation in Wales is absolute crisis. If they are seriously considering paying for their top players to play in England with no guarantee that they will then join whatever new welsh clubs can be resurrected from the ashes in horrendous.
The loss of the regions will kill a good chunk of the already flagging support for club rugby in wales, and certainly put off future investors and sponsorship. The knock on effects of this could be horrendous for the long term audience of the game.

Actually I agree with maestegmafia on this. I don't know much about the RFU relationship with the clubs but I follow French rugby and what has been going on in France is similar to the Welsh situation.

The FFR threatened to set up regional sides to compete in the h cup if the clubs didn't agree to play in it. It has regular arguments with clubs over numbers of foreign players playing in French sides and really, do you not follow the 6 nations? Year after year French coaches complain that they have the least amount of time with their players of any nation (outside of the world cup preparation) and blame their poor performances mainly on this. Every year there's friction. The JIFF quota has already been delayed. The FFR want more French players playing, more access to French players, the best players rested and every year the clubs refuse and fight against them on this. Not a happy relationship. Honestly, it's not so different to Wales.

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU  would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

It's called paraphrasing. You have regularly intimated that it is not possible owing to contractual obligations. I disagree with that point of view. I think it's possible if the other parties are willing to renegotiate, which I also believe is possible.

I don't believe it was RRW who negotiated a deal for the RCC. I believe they think they will have more money from it and are consequently amenable to the PRL offer to join. I don't think you managed to demonstrate RRW's negotiating prowess I'm afraid. As for whether or not any other unions would be better off under alternative arrangements for european competition, the devil is in the detail. Yes there are proposals out there, but since this was unilaterally negotiated by PRL (utterly beyond their remit) I'll hold my breath on exact revenue allocation until we see a fully multilateral and completed contract.

Hope that helps   

TBS, if you followed things, you would have seen when the PRL negotiated their TV deal for the RCC the Irish and Welsh would have been aprox. the same and the Scottish would be worse off as the Scottish gets money for 3 teams and they now only have 2., in their latest communication RRW state the 4 Welsh Regions would be £5M better off, the Irish would be better off and the Scottish basically the same, therefore a NEW DEAL has been negotiated, which is something the WRU failed to do.
It has also been reported in the Irish press, that they would be deeply unhappy with less teams of vastly inferior standard, therefore a number reduction would more than likely be refused.

  

You're really tangling the threads of your argument.

So it wasn't RRW that negotiated then was it?

... also why would these teams be inferior? Like I said if the WRU offered decent contracts to around a half of the current pro players and instigated a "Gatlands Law" policy then we'd be talking about the best players we've got distilled into fewer teams. We've been in this situation before when the Celtic Warriors folded. Of course the IRFU would be unhappy with "inferior" teams ... but that's not a definitive outcome anyway. This is all up in the air.

Look, the point I'm making, which I think you're failing to grasp is that I'm speculating about possibilities. I have written on this forum what I think would be the most sustainable solution. I am not even advocating any particular outcome other than dialogue between the WRU and RRW leading to a lasting solution. I have indeed been following the situation. Most likely outcome at present is RRW join the AP .... eventually leaving that when PRL decide they do want a bit of European action and that there is no room for the Welsh anymore. That's when they'll go belly up. Either that or the WRU will block them successfully (in the courts) and they are forced back to the fold. At that point they will find the WRU are calling the shots as they do not have to nominate them for cross-border competitions (same thing will happen just a few years later if the are allowed to join the AP). Belly up again. With my pragmatic hat on I think it's time for RRW to cut their losses and do the honourable thing. Not what I ever dreamed would happen or ever wanted. Trouble is if they don't Welsh rugby will suffer from a long drawn out and damaging death to the regions.

Very interesting article in the Western Fail: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-crisis-rugby-clubs-6468100

Lots of advocates of central contracts around the club scene ... and criticism of the WRU. Conclusion - big blydi mess.

TBS, the new contract with the £5M and extra for the Irish and Scots was negotiated by RRW, if I didn't make that obvious I apologise, then again that was rather obvious as it was in the recent RRW statement and the 4 CEOs mentioned them in the half time talks on BBC and S4C.
As for the Eastern Fail article, 3 of the clubs mentioned said they have been misrepresented and a number of other clubs were contacted but as they didn't conform to the WRU viewpoint they were not quoted.

Now have they really negotiated - or is it once again they've been offered to come on board? They are hanging on to the coat tails of the PRL. They say they've negotiated £12m extra for Welsh rugby. Smoke and mirrors. They've been offered money to join the RCC. They've also been offered money to join the AP. Just because the RRW CEO's say they've negotiated a deal, it doesn't mean that's what they've done. Shenanigans is what it all is particularly since they are not in the clear to join up as things stand.

Frankly I'd be very reluctant to put my faith in any of the factions involved here. It's another blydi power struggle. I'm just hoping, as I said, for a sustainable solution. That will only happen when all parties stop acting like a bunch of toddlers, grow up and get around the table to thrash out a deal that works for everyone best as can be.

Not holding my breath on that one yet.

wayne wrote:
It has also been reported in the Irish press, that they would be deeply unhappy with less teams of vastly inferior standard, therefore a number reduction would more than likely be refused.

Do you have a link to where this was said (and who said it)?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its very different. The RFU is not actively seeking alternatives to the premiership clubs and isntead pushing a deal which gives them what they want.  The French Union quickly negotiated a deal with their clubs to get them to sign up to the HC.
Yes theres bound to be some pain in the future again but the situation in Wales is absolute crisis. If they are seriously considering paying for their top players to play in England with  no guarantee that they will then join whatever new welsh clubs can be resurrected from the ashes in horrendous.
The loss of the regions will kill a good chunk of the already flagging support for club rugby in wales, and certainly put off future investors and sponsorship. The knock on effects of this could be horrendous for the long term audience of the game.

What kills support is the confusion that the fans and players suffer through these political and financial wrangles.

We want to watch rugby and the players want to play.

The disruptions throughout European rugby that have come to a head in nearly all countries, the disparity, the unhappiness, the striving to recoup financial investments are now effecting the game throughout and it is possibly time for the IRB to act on the various cases throughout Europe and get some resolution.

If anyone thinks there is harmony in any NH nation at the moment they are gravely mistaken.

Rugby needs to make a decision on its professional destiny no sides are unanimous in opinion.

English Championship teams are going to kick up a stink about any Anglo-Welsh league
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-joining-aviva-6469985

Intotouch wrote:Actually I agree with maestegmafia on this. I don't know much about the RFU relationship with the clubs but I follow French rugby and what has been going on in France is similar to the Welsh situation.

The FFR threatened to set up regional sides to compete in the h cup if the clubs didn't agree to play in it. It has regular arguments with clubs over numbers of foreign players playing in French sides and really, do you not follow the 6 nations? Year after year French coaches complain that they have the least amount of time with their players of any nation (outside of the world cup preparation) and blame their poor performances mainly on this. Every year there's friction. The JIFF quota has already been delayed. The FFR want more French players playing, more access to French players, the best players rested and every year the clubs refuse and fight against them on this. Not a happy relationship. Honestly, it's not so different to Wales.

The French regional thing was complete nonsense. It was a off-the-cuff that got blaimed way out of proportion. The club in the French case was the TV deal. It always was and the French clubs were always going to toe a union line until it was signed. Completely different. Haven't they also recently signed an EPS-type agreement with the union that gives them (FFR) extra time with the players, etc? All the stuff between the FFR and LNR seems to have died down now. It seems to be about the FFR trying to dictate the way they want Europe to go (nothing wrong with trying it, if they aren't happy with what the others are willing to do then they shouldn't take part).

geoff998rugby wrote:English Championship teams are going to kick up a stink about any Anglo-Welsh league
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-joining-aviva-6469985

Well of course they are. That was obvious. It's looking more like the comeptition that was discussed is just the RCC. I honestly don't think the AW league was every serious on the table at all.

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