What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

HammerofThunor wrote:All I'll say at this point is that I hope that whatever comes out of this in the long run is a positive for Welsh rugby. It was in Wales that I got into rugby in the first place and I know what it means to you guys.

Pob lwc (sp?)

Perfect spelling!

Coleman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:The Bridgend / Pontypridd Valleys team controversially went bankrupt with the collusion of the other 4 regional teams.

Is that so?

I've not heard this either. I thought that the guy who owned Bridgend sold off to the WRU and they immediately closed it down.

The feeling at the time is that the other regions were offered more revenue - lots of behind closed doors meetings - ( money split 4 ways / less competition for crowds / sponsorship ) and cherry pick the star studded squad if they agreed to the WRU closing down the Warriors. It was felt that Cardiff and Llanelli were especially eager. Closest link still I can find is :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/10316.php

and the other regions contributed money to the buyout, suspicious or what ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3725539.stm

At the meeting of the Professional Regional Game Board today between the Welsh Rugby Union and the four Regional Organisations a range of topics were discussed.
At this key moment for rugby in Wales the WRU continues to work hard in the best interests of Welsh rugby as a whole.

It would be unfair on the fans, the players and all of Welsh rugby to make any further speculative comment at this time.

However, the WRU remains hopeful that the Regions will decide to continue with the Participation Agreement by the deadline of 31st December 2013.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/29130.php#

This may be just me but that reads like "You know the deal, sign or not. We're talking about our new plans yet"

Gwyn Jones in todays Western Mail :

The WRU on the other hand see the damning PWC report into the financial and commercial management of the regions as sufficient justification not to throw good money after bad into these dysfunctional organisations

Intotouch wrote:Bluedragon, most of what you said makes perfect sense but this:
"The ospreys were supplying 15 or more players to International rugby for large parts of the season and had to employ extra players to cover those players absences - and injuries. It made more commercial sense to sell them to play for other teams in France or England and still receive the same WRU income regardless of number of players missing from your regional squad, and have less players in your squad because you don't need to cover so many international call ups."

Selling off internationals and receiving the same money from the WRU only makes sense in the short term. As the standard of the performances fall how can they expect to build up attendances or win anything?

From memory the fan base that the Ospreys had was growing steadily, only a couple of years ago. They won the mag. league and had a really good side. This year I've not been impressed with the standard of the Welsh teams and from the bits I read hear the attendances are now falling across all the regions. Is this so?

I still am not convinced that the WRU have a villainous plan in all of this. Surely if they want the regions to go bust they could stop funding them today and they'd go bust tomorrow. Why drag it out when they want to set up their own regions?
Not increasing funding to the regions is not the same as deciding to destroy them. Perhaps they don't want to change the current system as the national side have such success.

yes, totally, its a ridiculous thing to do. Welcome to the madness that is welsh rugby. Its why crowds are declining. But that is the apparent thinking. Why else the exodus of players ? The Blues clear out season before last - was when they offered many of their leading players - including many current internationals - reduced terms for their new contract. They lost 15 players at the end of a season. there has a been a deliberate tightening of the belts for short term survival.That is widely acknowledged and commented on by coaches and CEO's. Lots of talk about developing academy players to replace those that have left.  if they hadn't have done this they would have gone bust. Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

The ospreys galaticos team didn't win the Heineken cup and were a very expensive squad. The next season the regions all agree a salary cap suggested by themselves, not WRU. The ospreys have a big clear out replace with youngsters. Survival not success. it really is that bad at the moment.

HammerofThunor wrote:This may be just me but that reads like "You know the deal, sign or not. We're talking about our new plans yet"

I agree. That's how it reads. It was a very short meeting. If there was really room for further negotiations I would think the meeting would have lasted longer.
Maybe the Blues/Dragons to stay on side WRU?

I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

Seen some posts on other forums that suggests the Scots are looking at joining the league. Seen absolutely nothing to substantiate it whatsoever. Would be really bizarre if it did happen

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

I'm thinking now that WRU has to start over again. I just can't see how any other option is going to work. I don't know how realistic this is, but if WRU bought out Blues, and all of Dragons, then maybe they can rebrand the product. That should give them a solid base of players to start with, rather than build from scratch. If not then I agree. WRU would have to start from scratch.

HammerofThunor wrote:Seen some posts on other forums that suggests the Scots are looking at joining the league. Seen absolutely nothing to substantiate it whatsoever. Would be really bizarre if it did happen

What joining the AP - no chance. would be really stupid. Even more stupid than wales joining. someone has been smoking something good

I still think that if the WRU wanted rid of the regions to start their own teams then they would do it right away. Because they could. Without the funding from the WRU they would not survive. If they haven't done it it's because they want the regions to function and to continue to do so.

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

I'm thinking now that WRU has to start over again. I just can't see how any other option is going to work. I don't know how realistic this is, but if WRU bought out Blues, and all of Dragons, then maybe they can rebrand the product. That should give them a solid base of players to start with, rather than build from scratch. If not then I agree. WRU would have to start from scratch.

Would be interesting to see where a rebadged Blues/Dragons team would play! Would the current owners allow the new entity to play at their grounds?!

It could move to the valleys I suppose. Or North Wales. Or they could build a new stadium.

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Seen some posts on other forums that suggests the Scots are looking at joining the league. Seen absolutely nothing to substantiate it whatsoever. Would be really bizarre if it did happen

What joining the AP - no chance.  would be really stupid.  Even more stupid than wales joining.  someone has been smoking something good

Maybe a case of chinese whispers after the 8 team Scot's 'super league' was reported about a week or two ago?

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

I'm thinking now that WRU has to start over again. I just can't see how any other option is going to work. I don't know how realistic this is, but if WRU bought out Blues, and all of Dragons, then maybe they can rebrand the product. That should give them a solid base of players to start with, rather than build from scratch. If not then I agree. WRU would have to start from scratch.

Would be interesting to see where a rebadged Blues/Dragons team would play! Would the current owners allow the new entity to play at their grounds?!

It could move to the valleys I suppose. Or North Wales. Or they could build a new stadium.

The current owners would cease to be owners if WRU bought them out.

Intotouch wrote:I still think that if the WRU wanted rid of the regions to start their own teams then they would do it right away. Because they could. Without the funding from the WRU they would not survive. If they haven't done it it's because they want the regions to function and to continue to do so.

I don't believe it's as simple as that. The WRU still have to tread carefully with regards to possible legal action, and also that Wales players remain to be contracted to the regions. Things could get even more messy than they are at present, and have an impact on the National team. Not great leading up to a WRC next door. I'm sure they also don't want to be looked upon as the bad guys in this. At least not to those who don't already believe they are.

Intotouch wrote:I still think that if the WRU wanted rid of the regions to start their own teams then they would do it right away. Because they could. Without the funding from the WRU they would not survive. If they haven't done it it's because they want the regions to function and to continue to do so.

The WRU has a soon to expire contract with the regions. Today they put their new offer on the table.

The- unseen by us - price waterhouse Report on regional rugby had some clear ways forward. It seems like someone isn't happy with the ways forward. We don't yet know who.

Just hope somehow, in all the mess, we eventually get some good rugby and big crowds returning to our club grounds for the regional teams full of welsh and a few overseas superstars.

Munchkin wrote:

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Seen some posts on other forums that suggests the Scots are looking at joining the league. Seen absolutely nothing to substantiate it whatsoever. Would be really bizarre if it did happen

What joining the AP - no chance.  would be really stupid.  Even more stupid than wales joining.  someone has been smoking something good

Maybe a case of chinese whispers after the 8 team Scot's 'super league' was reported about a week or two ago?

It could be made up cowpat. It could be many things. All more likely than it being true.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Seen some posts on other forums that suggests the Scots are looking at joining the league. Seen absolutely nothing to substantiate it whatsoever. Would be really bizarre if it did happen

What joining the AP - no chance.  would be really stupid.  Even more stupid than wales joining.  someone has been smoking something good

Maybe a case of chinese whispers after the 8 team Scot's 'super league' was reported about a week or two ago?

It could be made up cowpat. It could be many things. All more likely than it being true.

Who knows? I just can't envisage the Scot's moving into the AP, if that's the league you mean. The Welsh regions I can, but not the Scots.
There is so much speculation now, which is understandable, and sometimes speculation is mistaken as fact.

Yes, it was the AP.

Ah, the wonders of the internet. Misinformation has never had a better medium for travel.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yes, it was the AP.

Ah, the wonders of the internet. Misinformation has never had a better medium for travel.

This is true, but it is also true that it's a fantastic tool for sorting out fact from fiction. Facts are in short supply in these debates, but then we have the fun of speculation   

It is if you're willing to put the effort in. In my experience people don't. Often they don't go beyond a headline

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/11/sam-warburton-cardiff-blues-welsh-rugby-union

Guardian suggesting that the WRU would set up three new teams based in Neath, Pontypridd and North Wales. But it's the Guardian with no references or quotes.

HammerofThunor wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/11/sam-warburton-cardiff-blues-welsh-rugby-union

Guardian suggesting that the WRU would set up three new teams based in Neath, Pontypridd and North Wales. But it's the Guardian with no references or quotes.

I suggested that this might be an outcome on another thread. What a power shift it would be. Three teams north of the M4.

Bluedragon wrote:There has a been a deliberate tightening of the belts for short term survival.That is widely acknowledged and commented on by coaches and CEO's. Lots of talk about developing academy players to replace those that have left.  if they hadn't have done this they would have gone bust. Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

The belt-tightening you mention has come in response to the PwC report (which the WRU has never published fully, for some reason). The regions were criticised for the way they ran themselves, hence they've begun to live within their means - some were already doing so, others weren't - and now they're in much better shape. Their reward from their governing body for this? A freeze on funding.

HammerofThunor wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/11/sam-warburton-cardiff-blues-welsh-rugby-union

Guardian suggesting that the WRU would set up three new teams based in Neath, Pontypridd and North Wales. But it's the Guardian with no references or quotes.

Taking top-flight rugby away from the three biggest cities in the country. Yep, that'll boost attendances.

@robindavey01: The regions were today threatened with being replaced by four other teams if they don't sign the PA in 2 weeks

@robindavey01: The regions were also told they will be taken to the High Court if they join the Aviva

Seems the plan includes the fourth team being some Cardiff/Newport combo.
Was talk of Cardiff wavering last night.

Would this mean just Llanelli and Ospreys gong east, if they can?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/11/sam-warburton-cardiff-blues-welsh-rugby-union

Guardian suggesting that the WRU would set up three new teams based in Neath, Pontypridd and North Wales. But it's the Guardian with no references or quotes.

Taking top-flight rugby away from the three biggest cities in the country. Yep, that'll boost attendances.

Yep you are right, it probably will.

Stupid for the regions to continue their line of defection when there is so little option open to them.

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

I'm thinking now that WRU has to start over again. I just can't see how any other option is going to work. I don't know how realistic this is, but if WRU bought out Blues, and all of Dragons, then maybe they can rebrand the product. That should give them a solid base of players to start with, rather than build from scratch. If not then I agree. WRU would have to start from scratch.

Would be interesting to see where a rebadged Blues/Dragons team would play! Would the current owners allow the new entity to play at their grounds?!

It could move to the valleys I suppose. Or North Wales. Or they could build a new stadium.

The current owners would cease to be owners if WRU bought them out.

Buying the Dragons wouldn't buy Rodney Parade though. It's not owned by the Dragons. Not a problem really. There's plenty of other grounds around. Just saying.

@simonrug: Very revealing to hear Paul Rees say on the radio that the WRU are lining up alternative regions based in Neath, Pontypridd and north Wales.

It would be really interesting if NEath does get set up. My in-laws live in the Neath valley and I've gone to watch a fair bit of rugby in the village clubs. They're all Ospreys supporters and don't seem to have the issues with the regions plenty of other places do. Would they switch over to a Neath team? Or try and stick with the Ospreys as they limp along? It's going to take a hell of a lot of funding to keep such a team afloat before the support gets there. And the funding isn't supposed to be there.

Interesting, the people I know in Neath are not pleased the way they feel Swansea dominate the Region and would absolutely love this to happen.

The funding will be there if they accept central control... that would be my take.
Maybe Ponty and Neath are happy to accept that as a price worth paying to become the big boys of Welsh rugby

geoff999rugby wrote:Interesting, the people I know in Neath are not pleased the way they feel Swansea dominate the Region and would absolutely love this to happen.

The funding will be there if they accept central control... that would be my take.
Maybe Ponty and Neath are happy to accept that as a price worth paying to become the big boys of Welsh rugby

I'm not talking about Neath. I'm talking about the Neath valley. If the new Neath based club just became Neath nothing would be solved. If the team is formed by destroying the Ospreys or through bad feeling I think there will be a lot of people in that catchment area that will be just as peed off as before. The current old school guys not happy with the current regions, proabbly won't be happy with the new ones either (unless they're in their backyard). So you have two groups of disgruntled fans.

Over time people would get over it like they were getting over the current regions but the WRU will have to pump a lot of money into them to keep them afloat until this happens. The WRU says they don't have the money...

But they do have the money they just wont give it to independently run regions.

They have choosen to pay off the Millenium debt quicker than necessary - they don't have to.
There are choices - the WRU have made their choice

'Destroy the regions in their current format'

The grounds according to Rees

EAST

Pontypridd Rugby Football Club
Location : Pontypridd, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Wales
Ground : Sardis Road (Capacity: 7,861)

WEST

Neath Rugby Football Club
Location Neath, Wales
Ground(s) The Gnoll (Capacity: 7,500)

NORTH

Rygbi Gogledd Cymru 1404
Location Colwyn Bay, Wales
Ground(s) Parc Eirias (Capacity: 6,500)

geoff999rugby wrote:The grounds according to Rees

EAST

Pontypridd Rugby Football Club
Location : Pontypridd, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Wales
Ground : Sardis Road (Capacity: 7,861)

Interestingly, there are a few fans on the Ponty forum suggesting their club joins the team exodus to England.

Whatever about the WRUs plan the Rabo could begone before they get anything significant set up. If the RRW go we are left with 1 less team, a good Glasgow side along with three very strong provinces and the rest. It's going slightly that way at the minute anyway but you will be able to pick the top 4 for years. 

There was word a new sponsor had been signed up for more money too but who is going to pay for that. 

I still maintain the RFU don't want the regions and that's why they are hell bent on resolving Europe (as we all should be). There needs to be some compromise from the WRU too. They should be increasing the funding as long as there is a bit of accountability to them in regards to spending

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think the WRU would want that. Really the WRU need to put more money into the teams (per sam). If more money isn't available that means a reduction in teams. If they're left with a couple of the current regions the remaining areas are going to be even more peed off than they are now with the Regions. If they're cutting teams they need to just start again. Either all the Regions are on board or none are.

I would have thought.
BTW my previous comment should have been "We're NOT talking about our new plans yet"

I'm thinking now that WRU has to start over again. I just can't see how any other option is going to work. I don't know how realistic this is, but if WRU bought out Blues, and all of Dragons, then maybe they can rebrand the product. That should give them a solid base of players to start with, rather than build from scratch. If not then I agree. WRU would have to start from scratch.

Would be interesting to see where a rebadged Blues/Dragons team would play! Would the current owners allow the new entity to play at their grounds?!

It could move to the valleys I suppose. Or North Wales. Or they could build a new stadium.

The current owners would cease to be owners if WRU bought them out.

Buying the Dragons wouldn't buy Rodney Parade though.  It's not owned by the Dragons.  Not a problem really.  There's plenty of other grounds around.  Just saying.

No, it wouldn't Griff. Don't think either of Blues or Dragons own their grounds, but what buying them out would do is give WRU access to their players.

Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

geoff999rugby wrote:Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

I think Rodney Parade is owned by NRFC? and the Arms Park by Cardiff Athletics?

Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Munchkin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

I think Rodney Parade is owned by NRFC? and the Arms Park by Cardiff Athletics?

You are correct.
I mistakenly read that as Newport and Cardiff rugby.
Having said that I do not see their being any issue with them ignoring the WRU.
On reflection true of the other 2 teams.

The regions have I think, fatal problems with defying the WRU but the Union pulling the plug on the grounds they play at isn't one of them

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yes it was, last season i believe we made some money. I'm not sure if it was pre or post tax though.

Coleman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:Blues lost £4 million over 2 seasons !!!!! That is unsustainable. Its almost like they have accepted failure.

Was that while they were playing at CCS?

Yes it was, last season i believe we made some money. I'm not sure if it was pre or post tax though.

So that would suggest the PWC report was based around our performance while at CCS and not CAP?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

I think Rodney Parade is owned by NRFC? and the Arms Park by Cardiff Athletics?

You are correct.
I mistakenly read that as Newport and Cardiff rugby.
Having said that I do not see their being any issue with them ignoring the WRU.
On reflection true of the other 2 teams.

The regions have I think, fatal problems with defying the WRU but the Union pulling the plug on the grounds they play at isn't one of them

I agree. I don't share the optimism of some of the regions fans of entering the AP, if it comes to that. If the WRU do take over Blues and Dragons then there won't be any issue with grounds. At least not in the short-term. It would also provide at least two competitive teams for the Rabo, although there is talk of a merge.

"Guardian.

We've been here before with the Heineken Cup, so all hope is not lost

Brinkmanship and bickering is part of the process, but a solution for the European game could be closer than it seems.

There has been a belief that, never mind the entrenched positions taken by various parties, there will be a settlement by the end of the season that will ensure a six-country European club tournament for the next eight years.

After all, candles have burned down to the end before, not least before the current accord was signed, on the day of the Heineken Cup final; brinkmanship has yielded reward. It may do again and this week the Rugby Football Union chief executive, Ian Ritchie, who has spent the season trying to broker a deal only to find his goalposts not so much moved as stolen, said it was imperative that everyone involved realised what they stood to lose.

A danger in the current disagreement is that a number of avenues that lead to a resolution have been blocked off. The English clubs will not have anything to do with the Heineken Cup organisers, European Rugby Cup Ltd, but are prepared for the competition to be run by the Six Nations committee.

That is not acceptable to the French rugby federation, which is campaigning for the way the game in Europe is run to be shaken up, proposing a Uefa-style organisation is formed, responsible not just for overseeing a major tournament but embracing all the smaller unions, and based in Geneva.

It is why it wants next season to be a transitional one in Europe with ERC continuing to run the Heineken Cup for another year while the new company is set up, a wildly optimistic timescale given the reluctance of the Celtic nations to concede power to clubs to run the commercial side of a cross-border tournament. The FFR's plan would widen the franchise and provide a pathway for countries like Georgia and Russia.

The Welsh regions are not prepared to play in a transitional Heineken Cup because it would mean a drop in income. Under the plan agreed by the RaboDirect Pro12 unions and the FFR at a meeting in Dublin last month that the RFU was excluded from, 20 teams will take part in the tournament next season when the Amlin Challenge Cup will be suspended.

The Rabo would provide 12 of the teams, France six and the other two would be filled by sides from, probably, Spain and Portugal. It is estimated that a full-blown Heineken Cup next season would have been worth €60m but without the English and more than half the French clubs, that figure will drop to €40m.

Even though France would provide less than a third of the sides, they will receive 50% of the pot, leaving the four Pro12 nations to divide the rest equally. The regions, who wanted to take part in the aborted Rugby Champions Cup proposed by the French and English clubs, were committed to the tournament by their union but are unwilling to take part because their income would drop and they would have to sell fixtures of little value.

They wanted the Welsh Rugby Union to fight for the Pro12 pot to be divided 12 ways, according to the number of teams, but they feel that their union wants to take control of the regional game and cut the number of professional sides to three, meaning that an equal four-way split suits them. And they cannot understand why the French get half for supplying six unnamed clubs.

The regions wrote to the WRU last week saying that the proposal for the Heineken Cup next season meant they would not be in a position to agree a new participation agreement for the next four seasons. They have until the end of the month to say yes or no knowing that it is not so much an accord they would be signing as a suicide note with the deal worth the same, before inflation, as it was in 2009.

Both the regions and the WRU are looking at options should the agreement not be signed. The former are talking with Premiership Rugby about an Anglo-Welsh league while the union is considering setting up two professional teams in South Wales, in Neath and Pontypridd, and another in the north, with players on central contracts, but if the regions remained trading the governing body would struggle for players and next season's Heineken Cup would be even less prestigious.

The Anglo-Welsh plan involves a five-year agreement and a 16-team league. The regions are prepared to go to court to win the right to play in a cross-border tournament without the consent of their union, but they will also take out an injunction against the WRU if it next month tries to set up new teams and centrally contract players. If successful, they would almost certainly have to put Anglo-Welsh plans on hold until the outcome of a hearing.

A five-year Anglo-Welsh league, broadcast by BT Sport, would mean no way back for the Welsh and English clubs into the Heineken Cup as it is currently run. They envisage two smaller tournaments of 20 teams each, divided into four pools with sides playing each other once before the semi-finals and final.

That would leave Ireland, Scotland and Italy in a perilous position, with the Pro12 stripped of the Welsh and the number of European weekends cut by three. They would struggle to hold on to their leading players and there would be a potential knock-on effect in the Six Nations championship.

There are still logistical hurdles to be cleared before an Anglo-Welsh league is a viable option, not least the issues of promotion and relegation and funding. The regions want a moratorium on relegation while they replenish their stocks and they accept they would initially receive less income than the English, who currently receive more than £2.7m each for taking part in the Premiership, more than double what the regions get for being in the Pro12.

The league is at this stage more of a threat than reality, a way of jolting the Pro 12 unions and getting them to negotiate about a six-country European club tournament again, but so much time has been wasted there is little left. And, never mind the season, there is no goodwill. Attitudes have hardened and there is no mood for compromise despite what everyone stands to lose, a bitter Heineken brew.

WELSH REGIONS HAVE HAD GOOD REASON FOR KEEPING SILENT

The Welsh regions have said little publicly over the dispute, not least because there is a clause in the participation agreement that leaves them subject to a fine if they make critical comments about the WRU or any of its officials.

The clause does not work in reverse and the battle between the two has tended to be one-sided in terms of media response, but opinion has shifted more towards the regions in recent weeks, especially after the WRU approached the players who were coming out of contract when Wales were in camp last month and pointed out potential pitfalls in signing new deals with their regions.

The players were told that central contracts would be on offer next month if the participation agreement was not signed, an approach that ignored the attachment they had to their regions. Certainty for them lies elsewhere.

The regions had been in talks with BT Sport about sponsoring them next season, when the Pro 12 will be televised by the company's arch-rivals, Sky. Both want to have the exclusive rights to Europe next season, the biggest single reason the dispute over the Heineken Cup has not been resolved.

BT currently sponsors Edinburgh and Glasgow. Signing up the four Welsh regions would have meant that half the Pro12 teams would have worn their logo with no chance of Sky airbrushing it out. The stunt would not be worth it if the quartet joined an Anglo-Welsh league, although it would open the door for Sky to reciprocate.

"I've said for years a British league would be absolutely fantastic," remarked the Ospreys No8 and former Wales captain, Ryan Jones. "I don't understand the nuts and bolts of it and all the intricacies but if I had my way that would be it.

"We've got to create a domestic environment, from the national team down, where players don't want to leave. My worry is it's going to leave a scar on the domestic game which is going to take a while to heal. We've got to be competitive financially and we've got to offer above and beyond to keep our best players. The stars of tomorrow need to be watching the stars of today.

"I'm tired of it and I know the other players here are tired of it and so are the Welsh public. The sooner this is resolved, the better."

As one of Wales's senior players, Jones is able to speak out without fear of reprisal. One of the problems has been the lack of a proper debate in Wales, with coverage based on leaks rather than engagement. It was the WRU which insisted on the change from club to regional rugby 10 years ago, a move at the time it said would take a while to come to fruition because it was a radical departure. As Ian Ritchie said this week, a proper partnership is based on collaboration and working towards a common good.

SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE TOURNAMENTS SHOW WAY FORWARD

The regions point to New Zealand's super rugby model as an example of what they are looking for. This month it was announced that the Waikato and Taranaki unions were taking a half share between them in the Chiefs franchise with private investors contributing the other 50% investment.

The New Zealand Rugby Union acts as back-stop. It is a partnership with the two unions entrusted with growing the game in their areas. In Wales, when the Welsh Premiership was reduced to 10 clubs a couple of seasons ago, the number only remained at 12 when the Scarlets and Ospreys backed Carmarthen Athletic and Bridgend respectively, pumping in £150,000 a year and offering practical support at a time when the WRU preferred to pay more than it needed to reduce its debt on the Millennium Stadium.

Australia, which in recent years has invested in its leading players and its super rugby franchises, announced this week that next year it is launching a new competition, the national rugby championship, which is designed to do for rugby there what the Currie Cup does for the game in South Africa and the provincial championship in New Zealand.

The competition, which will run from August to November, will be self-funded through a big television deal and it will be run not by the ARU but a commission that includes representatives from the union, the country's players' association, the super rugby franchises and the commercial backers. It will be chaired by an independent sports consultant.

While the NZRU and ARU decentralises, the WRU wants to assume total control in a country whose club system, so it liked to boast, was once the envy of the world.

Munchkin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Blues and Dragons grounds are owned by Newport and Cardiff rugby so I doubt there would be a problem.

Its Scarlets and Ospreys that don't own their grounds.

Worth a read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

Listen/Watch the Eddie Butler video - wise words

I think Rodney Parade is owned by NRFC? and the Arms Park by Cardiff Athletics?

You are correct.
I mistakenly read that as Newport and Cardiff rugby.
Having said that I do not see their being any issue with them ignoring the WRU.
On reflection true of the other 2 teams.

The regions have I think, fatal problems with defying the WRU but the Union pulling the plug on the grounds they play at isn't one of them

I agree. I don't share the optimism of some of the regions fans of entering the AP, if it comes to that. If the WRU do take over Blues and Dragons then there won't be any issue with grounds. At least not in the short-term. It would also provide at least two competitive teams for the Rabo, although there is talk of a merge.

You seem pretty sure that there won't be any issues. Do you mean issues in using the current ground, or moving to new grounds? Moving to new grounds, then I agree - piece of cake. Using the existing grounds - depends on what the owners feel and how well the buy out goes. Cardiff Athletic Club have a rule/by law where the team playing at CAP have to be called Cardiff. So setting up a new region would see the same trouble as now - i.e. a re badged Cardiff with the same name.

Newport RFC own Rodney Parade, and Tony Brown is involved somehow (perhaps as owner of Newport RFC). The WRU would surely be charged rent to use it, just as Newport Country are now. And Tony Brown can be petty and play hard ball if he has to. If the WRU do some sort of messy takeover then I can imagine Tony/Newport RFC refusing to let the new team use the facilities, such is the way in Welsh Rugby.

But this all depends on how 'clean' the buy out is. If the WRU essentially says we're starting a new team by cutting funding to the current ones to force them to fold, then the current ground owners will obviously be hacked off. And if it's to be new teams/regions playing elsewhere from current then that will be fine - as long as Pontypridd get a team called Pontypridd playing at the Pontypridd ground (Sardis road). If they're called something else then there will be riots.

Just more dross....

The French clubs down to 6? That was the guarantee of Camou at the 5N meeting, but think all T14 are now committed to HEC, even with the bluster of some from those quarters. There can only be 6 teams qualify anyway.

'The Welsh regions have said little publicly over the dispute, not least because there is a clause in the participation agreement that leaves them subject to a fine if they make critical comments about the WRU or any of its officials.'

Wow. I wasn't aware of that. I bet they're absolutely dying to put across their side of things.

If that is written by Rees it isn't worth the paper it's written on. I will drag up a Thornley article refuting everything and we can all go round in circles.