What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

WRU saying it's all written up, just needs to be signed. BBC saying we're not signing until we're sure there will be a competition to broadcast.

Makes sense to me.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

WRU saying it's all written up, just needs to be signed. BBC saying we're not signing until we're sure there will be a competition to broadcast.

Makes sense to me.

And this sounds almost like a carbon copy of the WRU vs regions argument! WRU saying it's all written up and just needs to be signed, but the regions saying they're not signing until they know what they're going to be playing in!

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:first up who the flip is running rugby in Wales.

Good question. Somebody must be or maybe nobody is.
Years of non negotiation and it's come to this which is not the "envy of the world" Rog.
Anyone remember the Welsh team parking up in a service station on their way to Twickers not so many years ago or am I dreaming that? I'm sure it happened because of a dispute regarding appearance money or something like that.

Wasn't that the insurance costs which the players were not happy with as they were uninsured, or poorly insured, when playing for Wales? Or was that a different 'spat'? There was definitely a player insurance bust up in the not too distant past.

Glad somebody remembers the incident. Insurance issues ring a bell of sorts, but the team did stop on their way to a game which is damning enough.

Yes, I remember the bus being stopped. I'm sure Alfie was highly involved at the time. An 11th hour agreement had to be quickly reached before the coach carried on to the game. Or was it to the airport for an overseas match or tour?! Can't remember.

I think it was on the way to a World Cup and Quinell was certainly involved

If you're on about the players going on strike it was in the lead upto a 6 Nations clash at Twickenham, up until the Thursday before the game we didn't know who was going to be playing.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Players'+anger+over+insurance+cuts.-a0172796976

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/2969538.stm

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/injured-rugby-player-sues-wru-2415014

Top stuff Hammer I'm thinking of the second one where they were in a motorway service station

Supporters' Group meeting with RRW;

Minutes of the Joint Supporters Group meeting with Regional Rugby Wales
Sunday 22nd December 2013
Parc-y-Scarlets, 4pm

Attendees:
Annette Thomas and Mike Phippen from OSC
Dorian Davies, Barrie Jones and Neil Bathgate from Crys 16
Nigel Short, Stuart Gallacher, Mark Davies, Andrew Hore from Regional Rugby Wales

Apologies:
Apologies were received from Cardiff Blues Supporters’ Club, Friends of Newport Rugby, Richard Holland of the Cardiff Blues and Gareth Davies of Dragons.

Minutes:
All present introduced themselves to each other.
AT stated that the supporters’ representatives have a responsibility to their members and the intention was to provide a full update post the meeting. It was confirmed that a copy of the minutes would be send to RRW in advance of general release to ensure that nothing commercially sensitive or inaccurate was reported as had been done with the WRU.

MP asked the RRW representatives if they had seen the minutes from the Supporters Group meeting with the WRU which they confirmed had been provided by the relevant supporters group. It was suggested that RRW provide a response to the points raised at that meeting and recorded in the minutes which was agreed by all present as a basis and structure for the meeting.

DD raised the first point regarding the WRU reference to “vested business interests” and asked if RRW could comment on what interests would be referred to as “vested” ?

MD stated that it was difficult to understand any reference to “vested” in this context given that a small number of investors/benefactors have put over £40m into Welsh Rugby over the last 10 years and questioned where Welsh Rugby would be without that level of subsidy, which no other rugby nation has benefited from. The inference appears to be that there is some unwelcome interest from individuals or businesses, when that has clearly not been the case, beyond any investor clearly needing to protect their investment.

DD asked if RRW agreed that the WRU has always “acted in the best interests of the game”?

MD stated that if so, surely this must have included the creation of the regions in the first place? It is difficult to understand how the only direction that is “in the best interests of Welsh Rugby” , seems to consistently be the Elite National game, rather than the Regions, the Premiership, and particularly the grass roots community club game given the clubs trauma as a result of cuts to their funding. If £2.6m was spent on Millenium Stadium boxes, why not spend £2.5m and restore the Community Clubs grant funding reduced by £100k 2 years ago?

BJ referred to the assertion by RL that a British & Irish league was proposed by RL but rejected by PRL.

In reply, SG referred to the recently published quote from PRL where they refuted that they rejected any such a proposal. SG stated that that he was at a meeting where this was a brief discussion at a lunch break rather than any form of formal proposal from RL.

NB followed on with reference to the question RL posed with respect to the regions having to break existing contractual arrangements to play in an Anglo Welsh competition ? SG stated that the only contract that the Regions have in place is the existing PA. The Regions are a signatory to the existing ERC Accord - which ceases to exist at the end of the season due to the English, French clubs and French federation issuing notice nearly two years ago. The Regions are not a signatory to the Celtic Accord. Therefore no contractual arrangements would be broken by the regions if the PA was not signed.

DD asked if it was true that RL had been invited to attend any discussion regarding the possibility of an Anglo Welsh competition by RRW, as RL had denied this was the case. The group were shown email evidence that a formal invitation was sent to RL. The written invitation also referred to the discussion having taken place at PRGB and this was confirmed by NVS and SG.

NB referred to the WRU statement that no discussions had taken place about a Plan B if Regions don't sign the PA. He stated that he understood there was a players meeting immediately following the meeting the Supporters had with the WRU at the Millennium Stadium where players were informed that the WRU had actually considered a number of options and would be meeting on January 2nd 2014 to finalise these. MD and AW confirmed that they had been informed of the same.

DD referred to the statement from WG and others that the approach to the players during the Autumn Internationals being ‘a complete and utter lie’.
MD and AW acknowledged that they only had “third party” comment as, having first read references to meetings in the media, they had only been told by players and their agents that the meetings had taken place and obviously not attended themselves. They also explained that in the circumstances they would not expect or ask the players to confirm this due to the impossible situation that would place them in.

In line with the players’ discussion, AG expressed concern regarding the statement by WG that Adam Jones had not yet been offered a contract by Ospreys.
AH provided dated written evidence that showed this was not correct.

MP asked for comment regarding the statement by WG that the proposed “one off” WRU payment of £1 million for International player development, recruitment and retention, would be better used on quality coaches

MD stated that Mark Jones was the backs coach for the 6N winning team, whilst Danny Wilson was the Wales U20 Coach when the team reached the JRWC final. AH stated that the new Ospreys coach was WG no 2 in NZ. Both outlined the investment in World Class
Conditioning & physio set ups at Regions plus huge investment in training facilities & Stadia. NB also referred to an article on BBC online with WG referring to the superior coaching & care facilities in Wales which should contribute to keeping Welsh players playing in Wales.

MP asked for clarity of the PWC report comments and conclusions referred to by RL and SP. The group was shown the actual wording of the PWC quote in the report, which is ; "The Regions have recognised that the financial position in FY11 (financial year 2011) was unsustainable and have taken actions to improve the management and performance of the Regions.”

In addition, “The Regions have implemented cost cutting strategies and the new Management teams appear to be putting a strong emphasis on improving the commercial and marketing activities.”

Finally, “External market forces have also had significant impact, which were difficult for the Management teams to combat without a collaborative approach with the Regions and the WRU.”

NB questioned SP’s assertion that the WRU give £16m to the regions and asked for confirmation that only £6m of this is WRU money. SG confirmed this was the case and that the rest is competition revenue (primarily TV revenues) passed through WRU.
SG further confirmed that the Regions solely carry the cost of competing in those competitions - including £1m cost for travel (flights) across the four, plus over £2.5m on coaching infrastructure which is defined as a requirement within the PA. This is in addition to the Squad cost required to be competitive, including the cost of additional player contracts required to enable the Regions to continue to play when International players are with Team Wales, for a longer period than any other country.

MP made reference to the point that RL suggested that the regions should use WG and the Welsh coaches’ expertise more often and asked if this was something the Regions should take up. The group were shown written requests from one of the regions to the WRU requesting coaching support from mid 2013, along with confirmation that no support had been provided.

In relation to the statement that the Wales team returning the region’s "assets in better shape" SG,MD and AW pointed out that there were more examples of the top players returning from Wales with injuries or fitness issues than without – e.g. Jamie Roberts playing only a handful of games for the Blues before his departure to France and more recently Sam Warburton and Jon Davies. MD stated he would like to understand how that constituted “better shape” and would like some proof.

AT referred to the response to the supporters questions about the 4th Autumn International with the WRU stating that this was at the regions’ request and to support WG vision that ‘beat the best you have to play the best’
SG stated that the Regions received £400k from the Australia International- just £100k each. NB commented that he understood that Australia received £750,000. SG stated that sounded about right and that, including TV revenues , he would estimate that income for the WRU from this would be circa £2.5m - £3m. That’s 80-90% revenue to WRU and 10-15% to the Regions. By contrast in England, RFU agreed 4th International every two years with the revenue split 50:50 between RFU & Clubs. AH and MD stated that the impact of the 4th International timing, the week prior to the Heinekin cup obviously had a fundamental effect on the competitiveness of the Regions in European Competition. MD pointed out that if it is possible to assimilate players back into Regional squads effectively in just a few days, why was it necessary to have such extended player release to ensure the National Team can perform.

NB asked for clarification of the point made by SP regarding distributions for player release. SG stated that this is factually incorrect as the payments purely related to player release monies as defined in the PA are actually distributed based on call up, not equally split as SP had stated. However the other monies - Welsh Qualified Player Incentive, Autumn International, Participation payment are split equitably across the four regions. The direct payment for player release is £1.2m not £6m. A significant element of the remainder is for maintaining a very high level of Welsh Qualified Players in their squads throughout the season – a higher level than other Nations.

AT asked why the Regions believed that the obvious answer of ‘Gatland's law’ was not being applied. SG and NVS stated that whilst WG has been supportive of this suggestion, with some sensible safeguards, RL Has consistently and formally stated it will not be applied. MD presented dated material that confirms the Regions have included a version of “Gatland’s law” as part of their proposals since May 2012.

AT then asked what the Regions’ view of the point made by DP where he suggested that "pertinent questions" should be asked by supporters of their regions. MD stated that perhaps in the next meeting with WRU DP could be asked to define the pertinent questions he referred to. AH stated that the PWC report cost WRU circa £60k and asked every question possible of the Regions as you would expect from such a reputable organization. MD stated that he was unaware that DP had asked any business question of the Regions at any time and is always welcome to personally review with the Regions Management teams.

NB asked if the WRU were actively involved in running Dragons given their 50% shareholding. SG stated that as far as he was aware the WRU do not attend any Board meetings at Dragons, nor have any involvement in its management.

MP made reference to the statement made by RL and SP that the Regions need to better maximise their income, MD stated that the biggest earner for the WRU was a home game against England every other year where there is no air travel involved. WRU do not sell out Italy, Tonga, Samoa, Argentina, or possibly Scotland. The Regions play teams from Italy, Scotland and Ireland. Eight of the Eleven Home games for the Regions would involve flights for any away supporters travelling to Wales, with almost no service into Cardiff and very little into Bristol. This results in the Regions enjoying no away support at all. In addition, whilst the WRU has the ability to market their games 6 -12 months ahead with confirmed kick off times, the Regions have only 3 weeks at the start of the season and 3 weeks for the second half, with no consistency of KO time at all. This point was strongly acknowledged by all supporters as a huge factor from their own experiences.

Currently, the Regions cannot currently confirm or sell next seasons games as they have no knowledge of competitions for next year; they cannot confirm ANY sponsor revenue for next season - games & TV - as the competitions are yet to be defined.

The group were shown that RRW have raised all of these points to the WRU with no response.

With reference to the point raised by SP that 12,000 attendees are required at each game, MD and AH stated that this was at best disingenuous as it did not take any account of the many factors impacting on attendance
• Local populations at a fraction of Irish provinces or Scottish, English, French and even Italian teams
• The difficult economic and employment situation in Wales
• The short notice and confirmation of kick offs and inconsistent days and times
• No away support due to air travel and the difficulty of access to Wales
• Dragons & Blues do not have 12,000 capacity
• Even if 4000 extra/Region/16 home games x £15 were possible – that would amount to £3.8m TOTAL across all 4 Regions – a fraction of the anticipated 80 – 100 Million Euro or the French Clubs’ TV deal.


AT confirmed that as stated at the start of the meeting the supporters representatives have a responsibility to their members and the intention was to provide a full update post the meeting.
AT thanked the RRW for their time and urged them to continue to talk to supporters. RRW encouraged the supporters to ask them any questions to ensure that they understood the full picture.

Meeting closed at 18:45pm

Thank you Cardiff Dave - quite illuminating. Most of the things that are being discussed on this forum from the horses mouth. So we've got both perspectives now. Right then, some simple questions for us all. What kind of budget does a region need? How much money, at best, could the regions currently get under the current competitions (bearing in mind the new Sky Pro12 contract and uncertainty with the HEC)? What is the most we realistically think the regions could get if RRW & WRU by some miracle came to an agreement on funding and competitions?

I then propose a simple calculation:

Number of viable regions = Total funding available/Funding requirements per region

Let's try to figure out exactly what Welsh rugby can afford.

How though do you decide what a viable region needs? The French salary cap is €9.2 million. If you want to keep players from joining French sides for the money is this how much you need to spend on salaries for a viable region? Or do you think a more modest amount would serve? How much is enough and how much is too little?

Its not all about money though is it.  Most Welsh Players in France (Roberts, Lydiate & JD) have already stated off air that they wouldn't have left if there was a Gatlands law policy.  Therefore players would have sacrificed higher offers for international recognition.  The only reason I assume the WRU have not moved to address this issue must relate to EU law.  New Zealand can do this as their policies are not governed quite like the minefield that is EU employment law.   I wouldn't be surprised if the legal angle is what is making this move more complicated.  

Thanks Dave, the meeting points (which I had read elsewhere already) did outline some of the regions viewpoints and in some cases they made solid arguments on various issues.  

That said I cant agree with some points they refer too.  Firstly regarding the 4th international.  I know for a fact the staffing costs (including the bill they get from various governing bodies & including the police service) for hosting matches at the MS are significant.  You cant on that estimate base a simple mathematical equation on what the WRU actually received in turnover.  Hosting the event in itself will have cost a significant amount as well as player payments etc.  So basically this viewpoint on their behalf is purely conjecture and probably a total misrepresentation of the facts.  

I also totally disagree with their sentiments regarding the player release issues over performance.  Leinster similarly have had these issues to overcome and have still on following weekends managed to perform in Europe.  Stating this is a major reason why the regions are underperforming in Europe is passing the buck in my opinion.  

Regarding players coming back as better players which the regions are refuting the case too, my view is that playing international rugby subjects the player to a faster, more physical game.  Therefore by playing at that level the experience gained returns players as better players.  I don't believe all player gains can actually be measured via fitness test or injury monitors.

I do think some blame regarding the organisation of the league calendar is also a little fault of the regions.  Primarily this is because of the schedule of the Anglo Welsh Cup.  Games have to be rescheduled around the weekends they play in this.  I do however agree with the overall view here the planning during the pro12 is poor.  That said I don't actually think this is something that the WRU are at fault at.  Primarily improving the Pro12 falls on all participating nations including their team management.  I personally think all games should be played on the same weekends and mirrored similar to the Aviva where only games cancelled are re-scheduled and most round matches take place on the allotted time slot and fixed in place making scheduling even easier.  There are certainly some things we can learn from the PRL in this respect.  I do think there is a need to get a professional setup at the Pro12 for the teams in it to benefit from scheduling and commercial aspects.  That should be down to the teams to sort out as part of the Pro 12 board though.

I do wonder what the need for this meeting was other than trying to gain Public votes.  The WRU refused to meet with the Private supporters clubs as they wanted dealings to remain confidential and felt it was disrespectful to the regions if it aired its views.

Welshmushroom, I agree with most of what you say here. And yes, there are factors other than money that determine what makes a viable region. But the question posed was one about money so how much money do you think can the WRU afford to spend on pro teams and how many can they run? So what do you think is the answer?

As for Gatlands law and EU regulations there are ways around that. One way is to mostly only pick players that are based in Wales. It is very hard to prove then that someone is not being picked because of where they play. For years only Geordan Murphy and Tommy Bowe were picked for internationals to play for Ireland and now players who want to get noticed or chosen feel that they need to be playing in Ireland for that. But that's all it is. A feeling. Nothing that can be proven. So yes that is one thing that could be done.

As for the meeting being held to gain public sympathy/ votes that's a good point. It suggests to me that they are expecting things to get worse soon and want to get their side across before pro rugby bellies up. Not a good sign.

Intotouch wrote:How though do you decide what a viable region needs? The French salary cap is €9.2 million. If you want to keep players from joining French sides for the money is this how much you need to spend on salaries for a viable region? Or do you think a more modest amount would serve? How much is enough and how much is too little?

Well, salaries will be the biggest expenditure so what would be reasonable for a squad of say 40 players at a level sufficient to retain our top internationals. £4m? £6m? £8m?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Intotouch wrote:How though do you decide what a viable region needs? The French salary cap is €9.2 million. If you want to keep players from joining French sides for the money is this how much you need to spend on salaries for a viable region? Or do you think a more modest amount would serve? How much is enough and how much is too little?

Well, salaries will be the biggest expenditure so what would be reasonable for a squad of say 40 players at a level sufficient to retain our top internationals. £4m? £6m? £8m?

By the time this gets sorted all the best players will be in France and (a couple in) England.

Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option.

Casartelli wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Intotouch wrote:How though do you decide what a viable region needs? The French salary cap is €9.2 million. If you want to keep players from joining French sides for the money is this how much you need to spend on salaries for a viable region? Or do you think a more modest amount would serve? How much is enough and how much is too little?

Well, salaries will be the biggest expenditure so what would be reasonable for a squad of say 40 players at a level sufficient to retain our top internationals. £4m? £6m? £8m?

By the time this gets sorted all the best players will be in France and (a couple in) England.

Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now.  Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Whether it's the status quo or new teams, what can Wales afford?

"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

Welshmushroom wrote:

I do wonder what the need for this meeting was other than trying to gain Public votes.  The WRU refused to meet with the Private supporters clubs as they wanted dealings to remain confidential and felt it was disrespectful to the regions if it aired its views.

The WRU did meet the supporters group though. Have you not seen the minutes from that meeting? They're on this forum somewhere. The reason for this meeting with RRW is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Simples.;

"MP asked the RRW representatives if they had seen the minutes from the Supporters Group meeting with the WRU which they confirmed had been provided by the relevant supporters group. It was suggested that RRW provide a response to the points raised at that meeting and recorded in the minutes which was agreed by all present as a basis and structure for the meeting."

Intotouch wrote:"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

There are no 'good' options left and no rehashing plan is going to be easy. But the Union pen-pushers and the 'benefactors' have had years and years to sort this out and have failed. A meltdown is inevitable. Better to get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Casartelli wrote:

Intotouch wrote:"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

There are no 'good' options left and no rehashing plan is going to be easy.  But the Union pen-pushers and the 'benefactors' have had years and years to sort this out and have failed.  A meltdown is inevitable.  Better to get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Yep and Armageddon is coming folks.
Makes me wonder what was the point of the PWC report.

How do you get it out of the way sooner though? Surely coming to a mutually beneficial plan is better than letting it all collapse.

Just because two groups have yet to be able to work well together doesn't mean that they never will, or that they shouldn't try to.

I'd like to see the IRB get involved in some way. Everyone just watching while Welsh rugby tears itself apart seems crazy to me.

The PWC report was, in my opinion, a way for the WRU to show up the regions and how badly they've performed, and thus give the WRU the upper hand in negotiations. It did this to a certain extent, but also showed up the failings of the WRU which is a can of worms they hadn't bargained on. Hence why we've only seen half of the report - the 'regions are rubbish' half.

Intotouch wrote:How do you get it out of the way sooner though? Surely coming to a mutually beneficial plan is better than letting it all collapse.

Just because two groups have yet to be able to work well together doesn't mean that they never will, or that they shouldn't try to.

I'd like to see the IRB get involved in some way. Everyone just watching while Welsh rugby tears itself apart seems crazy to me.

Great idea.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Intotouch wrote:"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

There are no 'good' options left and no rehashing plan is going to be easy.  But the Union pen-pushers and the 'benefactors' have had years and years to sort this out and have failed.  A meltdown is inevitable.  Better to get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Yep and Armageddon is coming folks.
Makes me wonder what was the point of the PWC report.

The PWC report was a PR 'move' by Roger Lewis that allowed him time to 'carpark some issues' while he 'pursued other opportunities' in local politics and regeneration schemes.

I'm sure he's fine as a box-ticking administrator, but as a leader of a sports organisation/union he's a floppy flaccid member.

I agree with the point made above. This mess should be handed over to the IRB to manage. We're a failed state, rugby admin wise, and we need some competent impartial folk to roll into town in white tanks to help us out.

Griff wrote:The PWC report was, in my opinion, a way for the WRU to show up the regions and how badly they've performed, and thus give the WRU the upper hand in negotiations. It did this to a certain extent, but also showed up the failings of the WRU which is a can of worms they hadn't bargained on. Hence why we've only seen half of the report - the 'regions are rubbish' half.

My thoughts too.
Weird though isn't it that the same WRU commissioned PWC report advised collaboration and against central contracts yet the WRU have refused to collaborate and have shouted about offering central contracts. Something more fundamental going on if you ask me, so feck it and let's go to court.

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Intotouch wrote:"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

There are no 'good' options left and no rehashing plan is going to be easy.  But the Union pen-pushers and the 'benefactors' have had years and years to sort this out and have failed.  A meltdown is inevitable.  Better to get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Yep and Armageddon is coming folks.
Makes me wonder what was the point of the PWC report.

The PWC report was a PR 'move' by Roger Lewis that allowed him time to 'carpark some issues' while he 'pursued other opportunities' in local politics and regeneration schemes.  

I'm sure he's fine as a box-ticking administrator, but as a leader of a sports organisation/union he's a floppy flaccid member.

I agree with the point made above.  This mess should be handed over to the IRB to manage.  We're a failed state, rugby admin wise, and we need some competent impartial folk to roll into town in white tanks to help us out.

Are you certain that's what the IRB are?

Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Intotouch wrote:"Is a forecast budget designed to bring these players back to Wales when their contracts expire, or to finance the next generation of 'talent' coming through the ranks and staying at home?

There are too many variables now. Let it all collapse and re-hash something out of the pieces is the low risk option."

Letting it all collapse is anything but a low risk option! It could take a long time and cause damage that may take a generation to recover from. If the regions head off to the AP it may take them being relegated before they collapse. While they are in the AP the WRU are obliged to scrape together some pro teams to play in the pro12. During this time the Welsh player pool will be stretched across two leagues and eight teams, none of which will be able to maintain a high standard. The pro12 may collapse due to the inability to find a new sponsor or one that pays very well. Welsh players will most likely leave for France if they are talented, rather than play in a dodgy side for little pay. Do you really see this as a good option or something that will be re-hashed with ease?

There are no 'good' options left and no rehashing plan is going to be easy.  But the Union pen-pushers and the 'benefactors' have had years and years to sort this out and have failed.  A meltdown is inevitable.  Better to get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Yep and Armageddon is coming folks.
Makes me wonder what was the point of the PWC report.

The PWC report was a PR 'move' by Roger Lewis that allowed him time to 'carpark some issues' while he 'pursued other opportunities' in local politics and regeneration schemes.  

I'm sure he's fine as a box-ticking administrator, but as a leader of a sports organisation/union he's a floppy flaccid member.

I agree with the point made above.  This mess should be handed over to the IRB to manage.  We're a failed state, rugby admin wise, and we need some competent impartial folk to roll into town in white tanks to help us out.

Are you certain that's what the IRB are?

Far from certain.  But we're way past the point where their intervention would be more palatable than another decade of petty bickering.

We act like we're the centre of the rugby universe.

The rest of the world doesn't give a shyte whether Sardis or Rodney Parade get home Rabo games ffs.

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Nope, but it was probably all about cash or rather not having enough of it.

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

Well good luck with supporting them and your dog, because most of the supporters will be with ME, watching the Regions play Leicester, Northampton and Exeter, Sale etc in the new revamped AW and the top French clubs in the RCC

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

I am not a WUM. I started this thread because I know little about this situation. This report may well have been mentioned many times but obviously I didn't pick up on this. There is no need to insult me because of this.

If it bothers you to read questions that you think someone should know the answers to DON'T BOTHER ANSWERING! I wasn't even asking you.

If it annoys you that I haven't memorized the details of every report posted then tough. No one is forcing you to read this thread or reply to every question that I pose.

As for the last point about the teams to be entered in the pro12 not having to be good teams, I'm not too sure if that applies. There must be some kind of standard specified in the pro12 agreement to insure a certain standard of rugby. Any rugby team the union chooses could not seriously be entered.

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

But will still require 12,000 average attendances apparently.
Meh.

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

Well good luck with supporting them and your dog, because most of the supporters will be with ME, watching the Regions play Leicester, Northampton and Exeter, Sale etc in the new revamped AW and the top French clubs in the RCC  

Without wishing to be negative, there aren't going to be many showing up at those games to watch Welsh 3rd stringers shipping 50+ points to English/French opposition.

Maybe a few English on a day out. And the odd dog.

The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

Well good luck with supporting them and your dog, because most of the supporters will be with ME, watching the Regions play Leicester, Northampton and Exeter, Sale etc in the new revamped AW and the top French clubs in the RCC  

Without wishing to be negative, there aren't going to be many showing up at those games to watch Welsh 3rd stringers shipping 50+ points to English/French opposition.

Maybe a few English on a day out.  And the odd dog.

I would willingly gamble there will be quadruple the number at an Ospreys Sale game than at a Valleys Connaught and what would be there when Ospreys play Scarlets and further down the road when Valleys play Bedwas on Boxing Day.

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So how the hell are they going to be able to pay for the 4 sides that THEY ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY TO THE RABO and ERC controlled competitions.

They don't have to be good teams.

Well good luck with supporting them and your dog, because most of the supporters will be with ME, watching the Regions play Leicester, Northampton and Exeter, Sale etc in the new revamped AW and the top French clubs in the RCC  

Without wishing to be negative, there aren't going to be many showing up at those games to watch Welsh 3rd stringers shipping 50+ points to English/French opposition.

Maybe a few English on a day out.  And the odd dog.

I would willingly gamble there will be quadruple the number at an Ospreys Sale game than at a Valleys Connaught and what would be there when Ospreys play Scarlets and further down the road when Valleys play Bedwas on Boxing Day.

And the rest of the rugby world won't give a stuff either way.

They, rather selfishly(?), aren't waiting for us to get our house in order. The game moves on regardless of what the Welsh are trying to do. To the surprise of many.

Interesting article on T14 salaries here:

http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/194183.html

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Intotouch wrote:The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

Steve Phillips [SP] from WRU;

"SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable."

Did he count the freebies? There were stink loads of 'em at CCS and nobody give a sh!t.
Another meeerrhhh i'm afraid.

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Thank you for posting this, it's an interesting article.

"But while the league's top stars continue to benefit from the generosity of the leading clubs, the newspaper reports that average Top 14 salary - €14,300 in 2012-13 - is likely to fall this season for the first time since the league went fully professional in 1997. The players' union Provale claims that the decrease may be as much as "10-15%" having monitored contract dealing during the off-season."
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/194183.html#ARHPUhdZtU3ijHjh.99

This is obviously good news for every other country, as is the news further down that the salary cap will be strictly enforced now. What they don't explain is why this is happening though.

It could be because of the JIFF deal, where clubs there have to employ more French trained players each year, forcing them to employ people other than the best and more expensive from overseas. This limit on foreigners would bring the average cost of employing players down of course but it still leaves plenty of room to recruit the best from overseas.

That they increased the salary cap after only one year is really ominous though. It means that even the poorer top14 sides can afford or aspire to €9.2million on salaries each year.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

Steve Phillips [SP] from WRU;

"SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable."

Did he count the freebies? There were stink loads of 'em at CCS and nobody give a sh!t.
Another meeerrhhh i'm afraid.

Steve sounds a bit clueless too. Bless.

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

Steve Phillips [SP] from WRU;

"SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable."

Did he count the freebies? There were stink loads of 'em at CCS and nobody give a sh!t.
Another meeerrhhh i'm afraid.

Steve sounds a bit clueless too.  Bless.

Group finance director - WRU.
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/thewru/structure/16660.php

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

Steve Phillips [SP] from WRU;

"SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable."

Did he count the freebies? There were stink loads of 'em at CCS and nobody give a sh!t.
Another meeerrhhh i'm afraid.

Steve sounds a bit clueless too.  Bless.

Group finance director - WRU.
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/thewru/structure/16660.php

Yeah, he's the one of Peter Thomas's gang with a city & guilds in accounting. Shame he forgot to mention the ticket price that each of the '12.000' should pay. Thus rendering the soundbite meaningless.

Other countries are right to laugh at us.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

wayne wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Cardiff Dave, do you know why they advised against central contracts?

Intotouch you are either a WUM or incredibly mis informed, it is part of the PWC report that has been leaked and has been mentioned many times that Price Waterhouse Cooper report stated the WRU does Not have the money, to be able to pay CC.  

This keeps cropping up here. They don't have the money for say 140 odd players at four regions. But what if they offered decent contracts to about 70 and development contracts to 30 at 2+1 regions. At an average of £150k per player per season full contract and £50k development that would give a total of less than £13m in wages. Given the figures bandied about I think that might be do-able. With all the talk of the WRU being free to enter alternatives to the RRW sides this may be a possibility. If the WRU declared a form of "Gatlands Law" the players could be put in a very difficult position and the RRW sides could find it very hard to retain Welsh players.

I think there are many possible outcomes. That is just one of them and a very messy one at that. I think we all want both parties to get into dialogue and get an agreement going because both sides have some damaging moves at their disposal - I hope that sanity rules and that we get a lasting and viable solution.

The point is the WRU ARE CONTRACTED TO SUPPLY 4 (NOT 2+1 1+2 OR 0+3) 4 TO THE Rabo and ERC sanctioned Competitions. As one of the most respected Financial Companies within the UK, who the WRU put in to investigate the Regions ADVISED THEM THEY COULD NOT AFFORD.

Wow, dude, you're going to have an embolism!

And if the WRU go along to the IRFU and SRU and say, look guys, we cannot afford more than three teams? Time to renegotiate will be the reply I think. The WRU want to stay in the celtic league and I'm pretty certain the Irish and Scots want us to stay. In fact if it were a more secure long term prospect why on earth would the irish and Scots make a stink about it? Why are you saying impossible all the time? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? Contracts have been renegotiated before and will be again in all sorts of business arrangements. This is no different.

Keep your hair on!  

Considering I'm nearly bald this is really funny, I've said it on here a number of times when I use CAPITALS it is to emphasise a point, I'm not shouting
FYI I have not used the word impossible, it's not in my vocabularly. Under the proposed RRW proposals they would stay within the WRU and the IRFU would financially benefit and the SRFU would stay as they are in the new RRW deal that they have negotiated outside of the WRU for the new RCC COMPETITION. They just want to be able to control their own destiny and as I just proved they can negotiate BETTER deals than the WRU CAN

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Intotouch wrote:The 12,000 is to be commercially viable, independent of the union. If the union is funding the teams until this happens then this is not the case.

The question again is what can the union afford to do if the regions leave? Will they have the money to support pro sides, how many and for how long?

If the WRU pro teams are set up as actual regions and they are the only Welsh sides who can participate in the h cup then maybe they will win support away from the existing regions. Especially if the current sides get relegated in the AP. If these sides are well funded they could of course keep good players and achieve a high standard of rugby.

Steve Phillips [SP] from WRU;

"SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable."

Did he count the freebies? There were stink loads of 'em at CCS and nobody give a sh!t.
Another meeerrhhh i'm afraid.

Steve sounds a bit clueless too.  Bless.

Group finance director - WRU.
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/thewru/structure/16660.php

Yeah, he's the one of Peter Thomas's gang with a city & guilds in accounting.  Shame he forgot to mention the ticket price that each of the '12.000' should pay.  Thus rendering the soundbite meaningless.

Other countries are right to laugh at us.

Speaks volumes to me and he's their finance bloke.