What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Exiledinborders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.

What the Welsh regions are doing, from what I've read, is motivated by having more independence and perhaps bigger attendances. Where have you read anything that states that the Welsh regions want to quit the pro12 because of how badly their partners have treated them? If you've read this thread you will have seen that the arguments for leaving, that everyone has listed, are primarily about their relationship with the WRU and what they receive from them.

The French and English invited the Irish provinces and Scottish clubs to join their new euro cup.

I have yet to see any quote from any official in any of the organizations involved that states that the Scots and Irish made awful partners. Your argument is total speculation.

As for the HC, there is a big difference between people quitting a competition because they don't like the set up and because they want more money. As it is the demands that the PRL and LNR made for changing the tournament format have been agreed to now. I'm talking about the PRL in particular If BT had not offered more money for a new euro cup, and then bound the contractually to deliver one this situation (they quitting entirely) would not have arisen.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy with the English clubs position. Eight of the AP clubs are making a loss and I do believe that survival was a large part of their motivation. They are of course entitled to choose who they play with and for how much money.

What is awful about this is how this situation will effect everyone else in the short and long term. The regions joining the AP will damage the pro game in four countries. Including Wales if the fallout is bad.

Intotouch wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.

There is no perfect competition design that every European union would want because the countries vary hugely in how the pro game is set up/ number of clubs/ income/ viability. What the Welsh regions are doing from what I gather is motivated by having more independence and perhaps bigger attendances. I don't truly think that you can blame the Welsh regions pro 12 partners for their wanting to quit this league. If you've read this thread you will have seen that the arguments for leaving are internal.

There is a big difference between people quitting a competition because they don't like the set up and because they want more money. I'm talking about the PRL in particular If BT had not offered more money for a new euro cup, and then bound the  contractually to deliver one this situation would not have arisen. As it is the demands that the PRL and LNR made for changing the format have been agreed to already.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy with the English clubs position. Eight of the AP clubs are making a loss and I do believe that survival was a large part of their motivation. They are of course entitled to choose who they play with and for how much money. What is awful about this is how this situation will effect everyone else in the short and long term. The regions joining the AP will damage the pro game in four countries. Including Wales if the fallout is bad.

I agree that the fallout will be bad. I do not want Welsh teams in AP. I hope they settle their differences and carry on in Pro 12.

With regard to PRL and HC. It is true that many of the changes they wanted have been agreed but when the English and French gave notice the response of the Irish, Welsh and Scots was to refuse to discuss the issues for over a year. Only once the BT deal was signed did negotiations start. That is what I mean by bad partners.

As to RRW surely their problems are not entirely internal. In part relate to the uncertainty about European competition and the lack of a Pro 12 sponsor.

If being a bad partner means only negotiating at the last minute then it is the French and English who were the bad parners. The Scottish and Irish both proposed alternative formats for the h-cup that they refused to discuss or even consider. The only negotiating that they wanted was one where everyone else agreed to what they proposed. That's it. Now they got what they wanted and the PRL still won't join the h-cup because they backed themselves into a corner with a tv deal and now the pro 12 pays the price.

However this is going off topic.

Below I have a quote from the pontypool rfc website that was mentioned before. It is an interesting article. I only quoted the last few paragraphs.

"I hope that the regions and the WRU can repair their differences, but what I most hope will come from yet another debacle involving Welsh rugby is that those running the game will finally identify that you can only alienate your core audience for so long before you are left with an unviable situation. Yes, a young audience is emerging who have an affinity to the regional setup, but there also exists a core audience of rugby purists who grew up watching their beloved clubs alongside their families. This group has been completely abandoned and all they really have left is sentiment and memories. That is a crying shame and that has to change.

In my view, the initial solution would have been to invest in sustaining the club game by offering business infrastructure support and training to clubs struggling to adapt to the professional era. That is where an organisation operating within the business administration sector could have sponsored a series and added a real CSR platform – it would have been tangible. As simplistic as that may sound, that is how quality, mutually beneficial partnerships are formed.

This platform would have not required a complete re-inventing of the wheel and not required the forming of four new regions. In doing so, it would have retained the heritage and history of the Welsh game. The Dragons v Blues derby was enjoyable, but it had nothing on the sense of occasion the Newport v Cardiff of old would have offered.

But now the situation is too far advanced. You lose the regions at this stage, how does the game recover? The Welsh setup has kicked the can down the road for far too long and unfortunately, it now has to face the consequences."

Exiledinborders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.

What you've got is professional teams run by private interests who care nothing for international rugby and see the Unions as an anachronism. And then on the other side Union run teams. We're not in the minority really, in fact the three best teams in world rugby have a similar model to the Irish and are all in the SH. The production line of talent down there is nurtured by a model that values fewer, higher quality games. But thats beside the point.

The current conflict is pretty ideological, pretty messy in truth as well with a lot of horsetrading going and a lot of people wearing different hats but it's really about privately run teams chafing at the restrictions imposed by the primacy of the Unions. Are we bad business partners? We have the best traveling fans in Europe, we have had some great teams over the years and we're a pretty big market for sponsors. There's always a big demand for tickets everywhere our provincial teams travel. We've had some big stars of international rugby in those teams. None of that points to us being bad for business. But we do believe that letting private interests take over rugby union is a bad idea, that it ends up distorting the market and damaging the international game so obviously there's a lot of suspicion about the PRLs motives.

I'd honestly say that this has more to do with teams having an ideological opposition to the status quo than any issue with Irish Rugby. And for those who do have an issue with the Unions, it's generally with their own Union- the FFR and the LNR are constantly on the verge of conflict, obviously with the Welsh and the PRL have historically had mixed relations with the RFU.

I do think the offer on the table for the regions to join up with the PRL and BT has more to do with Ireland than Wales though. The PRL would like to be in business with us if we accepted it on their terms, but since we've shown a bit of backbone and stood up to them anything they can do to undermine the Pro12 is good for them. We're talking about an organisation that has been throwing the threats around quite openly. If they can sideline a competitor I guess they think its good business.

Could we please keep this thread on the situation in Wales?

Exiledinborders will you please post your comment as a new thread so that this argument can continue elsewhere?

Thanks.

Ah now, thats me done.

Notch wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.

What you've got is professional teams run by private interests who care nothing for international rugby and see the Unions as an anachronism. And then on the other side Union run teams. We're not in the minority really, in fact the three best teams in world rugby have a similar model to the Irish and are all in the SH. The production line of talent down there is nurtured by a model that values fewer, higher quality games. But thats beside the point.

The current conflict is pretty ideological, pretty messy in truth as well with a lot of horsetrading going and a lot of people wearing different hats but it's really about privately run teams chafing at the restrictions imposed by the primacy of the Unions. Are we bad business partners? We have the best traveling fans in Europe, we have had some great teams over the years and we're a pretty big market for sponsors. There's always a big demand for tickets everywhere our provincial teams travel. We've had some big stars of international rugby in those teams. None of that points to us being bad for business. But we do believe that letting private interests take over rugby union is a bad idea, that it ends up distorting the market and damaging the international game so obviously there's a lot of suspicion about the PRLs motives.

I'd honestly say that this has more to do with teams having an ideological opposition to the status quo than any issue with Irish Rugby. And for those who do have an issue with the Unions, it's generally with their own Union- the FFR and the LNR are constantly on the verge of conflict, obviously with the Welsh and the PRL have historically had mixed relations with the RFU.

I do think the offer on the table for the regions to join up with the PRL and BT has more to do with Ireland than Wales though. The PRL would like to be in business with us if we accepted it on their terms, but since we've shown a bit of backbone and stood up to them anything they can do to undermine the Pro12 is good for them. We're talking about an organisation that has been throwing the threats around quite openly. If they can sideline a competitor I guess they think its good business.

Agree entirely with Notch about this. That's why I get irked when people talk about the "right" thing to do. From whose perspective is it right? I have long assumed that the status of Wales as international rugby power would be the goal that most Welsh rugby fans would prioritise achieving but this thread has effectively taught me that this assumption was wrong.

"Agree entirely with Notch about this. That's why I get irked when people talk about the "right" thing to do. From whose perspective is it right? I have long assumed that the status of Wales as international rugby power would be the goal that most Welsh rugby fans would prioritise achieving but this thread has effectively taught me that this assumption was wrong."

I didn't get that impression from this thread at all. Wanting a sustainable pro rugby structure and for the dispute between the RRW and WRU to be resolved is something that everyone here is arguing for and this surely is to the benefit of the international side as well. What people are arguing about is both the cause of the current crisis and how best Welsh rugby could develop.

I don't know GC; I think you can have both. In fact, I think it's desirable to have both. For Ireland its obvious that the success of Leinster and Munster hasn't translated into the international arena (although our record does get significantly better from around the year 2000 on) but the standards set by the Crusaders obviously help New Zealand and the Bulls help the South African national team etc.

I think the Welsh have so many grievances because their model tries to take the best bits from Union control and the best bits from privately run teams and manages to come up with the worst parts of both, in a sort of horrible dysfunctional frankensteins monster.

Maybe I'm wrong in saying that.

Notch wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote: you talk about RRW not being good partners for Scots and Irish but consider this:

• The Welsh regions do not want to be in Rabo with you.
  
• The English and Welsh teams do not want to be in HC with you.
  
• The French clubs have to be frog marched to play with you.
  
• The Italians look likely to jump ship as you make them pay to play you.
  

Has it occurred to you that just maybe the Irish and Scots have not been such good partners?

Has it occurred to you that just maybe fact that the Irish provinces keep beating everyone pi$$es them off, and (like the PRL) they want to take their ball and run off crying to their mammies.   

No it had not occurred to me that these disputes were about who wins the tournaments. Whilst it is true that certain things about the way the HC was organised gave Irish provinces unfair advantages these disputes are about real business issues.

Of course if everybody else does go off with their ball it will be the Scots and Irish who will be the big losers. English and French can survive on their own. If the Welsh join AP they can survive. Can scots and Irish survive? I hope so but I doubt it, particularly the Scots.

In my original post I was not trying to make a joke. I was just pointing out that there must be something wrong with the status quo if the vast majority of professional teams want nothing to do with it.

What you've got is professional teams run by private interests who care nothing for international rugby and see the Unions as an anachronism. And then on the other side Union run teams. We're not in the minority really, in fact the three best teams in world rugby have a similar model to the Irish and are all in the SH. The production line of talent down there is nurtured by a model that values fewer, higher quality games. But thats beside the point.

The current conflict is pretty ideological, pretty messy in truth as well with a lot of horsetrading going and a lot of people wearing different hats but it's really about privately run teams chafing at the restrictions imposed by the primacy of the Unions. Are we bad business partners? We have the best traveling fans in Europe, we have had some great teams over the years and we're a pretty big market for sponsors. There's always a big demand for tickets everywhere our provincial teams travel. We've had some big stars of international rugby in those teams. None of that points to us being bad for business. But we do believe that letting private interests take over rugby union is a bad idea, that it ends up distorting the market and damaging the international game so obviously there's a lot of suspicion about the PRLs motives.

I'd honestly say that this has more to do with teams having an ideological opposition to the status quo than any issue with Irish Rugby. And for those who do have an issue with the Unions, it's generally with their own Union- the FFR and the LNR are constantly on the verge of conflict, obviously with the Welsh and the PRL have historically had mixed relations with the RFU.

I do think the offer on the table for the regions to join up with the PRL and BT has more to do with Ireland than Wales though. The PRL would like to be in business with us if we accepted it on their terms, but since we've shown a bit of backbone and stood up to them anything they can do to undermine the Pro12 is good for them. We're talking about an organisation that has been throwing the threats around quite openly. If they can sideline a competitor I guess they think its good business.

I disagree about PRL caring nothing for international rugby. It is a significant source of income for them and a shop window for rugby. In recent years since the participation agreement came into place the clubs have done a lot to produce young England players. Finally the coaches are constantly arguing that their players should be playing England. The prevalent attitude amongst Irish supporters is that the PRL are money grabbing bar stewards something along the lines of Goldman Sachs. In truth the English clubs are either supporter owned or owned by people who have made money elsewhere and SPEND money on a sport they love. You would have to be an idiot to think you were going to make money from owning a club.

I am not suggesting that the Irish sides and supporters are not a great asset to European competition. I am suggesting that the status quo suited Ireland better than France or England and when England and France suggested changes the attitude of the IRFU and to a lesser extent SRU and WRU was basically "**** off". That I think hardened attitudes at the PRL so that in addition to the changes (belatedly agreed) regarding revenue and qualification they insisted on new governance because the old governance so clearly did not work. In addition they think, with some justification, that the ERC are commercially inept and too expensive.

No, I think you're spot on saying that Notch. And that's where the problems lie. At inception existing club owners were forced to work with rival owners to set up new businesses, while maintaining their current businesses albeit downgraded to a semi-pro status (cheers WRU!). This was because the WRU didn't have the money and/or balls to pay for, set up and run the things in the first place. And they've not really worked. Now that the WRU is in the position to run the game (thanks in no small part to the regions producing better players, leading to better on pitch success and more income for the WRU) they want to blame the regions for failing, for being greedy, etc., rather than saying 'we're in a position to help now where we couldn't in the past'. The mess is the WRU's doing in the first place.

I like the fact that in Ireland, if I have it right, the union has funded the lot and has helped out in terms of funding to the provinces, but now that they're very successful individually they are scaling back the funding a bit as it's not needed - I.e. They're becoming more self sustaining, but still have the union assistance and backing if it were to go t*ts up again. In Wales the regions were left to get on with it and, when it went t*ts up, it was more of a blame game, with back stabbing, calling in the auditors and then only revealing 1 half of the report, insisting on a gagging order on the regions as part of the participation agreement, etc.

So you're right; we've got a Franken-rugby nightmare with the worst bits of the two models.

Notch wrote:I don't know GC; I think you can have both. In fact, I think it's desirable to have both. For Ireland its obvious that the success of Leinster and Munster hasn't translated into the international arena (although our record does get significantly better from around the year 2000 on) but the standards set by the Crusaders obviously help New Zealand and the Bulls help the South African national team etc.

I think the Welsh have so many grievances because their model tries to take the best bits from Union control and the best bits from privately run teams and manages to come up with the worst parts of both, in a sort of horrible dysfunctional frankensteins monster.

Maybe I'm wrong in saying that.

On this thread, not so much "wrong" as "incredibly brave"... 

Notch wrote:I don't know GC; I think you can have both. In fact, I think it's desirable to have both. For Ireland its obvious that the success of Leinster and Munster hasn't translated into the international arena (although our record does get significantly better from around the year 2000 on) but the standards set by the Crusaders obviously help New Zealand and the Bulls help the South African national team etc.

I think the Welsh have so many grievances because their model tries to take the best bits from Union control and the best bits from privately run teams and manages to come up with the worst parts of both, in a sort of horrible dysfunctional frankensteins monster.

Maybe I'm wrong in saying that.

No that sounds about right Notch.
Though it also seems the regions want to monopoly and keep the status quo, so they are the dominant 4 teams. Notice how relegation from this new Aviva Premiership was a major sticking point?

When the Union suggested copying the Irish model and underfunding 1 region like Connacht to help the other 3 was rejected out of hand.

To me it seems they want the monopoly on their terms.

Personally I'd rather throw the 10 Celtic teams and 12 Aviva teams into 1 mammouth league, or failing that have a Professional Welsh Premiership and 2 Provinces, 1 in the South and 1 in the North.

Truth is though I dont think anything is going to work, Welsh rugby is in such a mess. Even a new peace deal will only last a year or two until the regions start squealing for more money again.

The truth is I think Wales is simply unwilling (or too stupid) to see that there are larger and richer countries, who can pay more for our rugby talent.

If I say FC Ajax, FC Benefica, everyone knows who they are and where their from, but they still have to suck it up if Real Madrid, Barcelona or Manchester United come calling for one of their players. History or not, they can't compete with a bigger fish.

Intotouch wrote:"Agree entirely with Notch about this. That's why I get irked when people talk about the "right" thing to do. From whose perspective is it right? I have long assumed that the status of Wales as international rugby power would be the goal that most Welsh rugby fans would prioritise achieving but this thread has effectively taught me that this assumption was wrong."

I didn't get that impression from this thread at all. Wanting a sustainable pro rugby structure and for the dispute between the RRW and WRU to be resolved is something that everyone here is arguing for and this surely is to the benefit of the international side as well. What people are arguing about is both the cause of the current crisis and how best Welsh rugby could develop.

Obviously both are desirable for the sake of Welsh rugby, should be achievable. All I'm saying is that my pea brain will not let me overcome the core problem which is that each side seems to be content for the other's needs to be met if this coincides incidentally with theirs.

Hardly 'brave' GC. Of all the threads I've read on this site and the old 606, this one has been pretty well observed. We're 19 pages on and no wumming as far as I can see. That's pretty rare. Probably the only thread I've stuck with long term. Certainly beats the 'Gatland robbed my Auntie and so shouldn't be knighted' threads.

This sort of thread is exactly what this site was set up for: good, honest, emotive debate.

Regarding that Pontypool article I linked to, that fella has one very very good point.

If the Regions are 'scrapped' (whatever happens to them) then the WRU really REALLY need to think about what they replace them with. In consulation with the clubs throughout the structure. If they have funding for 2.5 or 3 teams they say that, come up with proposals, discuss them, get what it 'best' for as many people as possible. Some people won't be happy, they never will. But it HAS to be a system that works for domestic and international rugby in the long term.

And is the "greedy club owners don't care about rugby, just making money" revenge for all the years of "celtic league is micky mouse league", "Irish teams rest all the their best players during celtic league", etc? Fighting cowpat with cowpat?

'Regions' were never 'fit for purpose' and the Barclays 'credit risk guys' call the shots when it comes to the WRU finances (i.e. give 90% of the surplus to the bank, not the game).

A complete and utter farcical meltdown is, in many ways, the best thing that could have happened. We may just create one or two relevant club/superclub/rheeeejhunal teams out of the mess.

Silver lining - none of this seems to affect the test team. Shambolic administration seems to, somehow, produce a respectable national side.

Casartelli wrote:'Regions' were never 'fit for purpose' and the Barclays 'credit risk guys' call the shots when it comes to the WRU finances (i.e. give 90% of the surplus to the bank, not the game).

A complete and utter farcical meltdown is, in many ways, the best thing that could have happened.  We may just create one or two relevant club/superclub/rheeeejhunal teams out of the mess.

Silver lining - none of this seems to affect the test team.  Shambolic administration seems to, somehow, produce a respectable national side.

Will it affect the test teams of the future. The regions have produced good players who now play in France and England but who will produce the players of the future?

From WRU website:

The Board of Directors of the Welsh Rugby Union met today and unanimously agreed that a positive way forward for professional rugby in Wales as set out in the WRU's statement of 31 December 2013, is in the best interests of Welsh rugby.
The WRU has today informed the four Regional Organisations that they will shortly be presented with a new agreement in respect of professional rugby in Wales. A timetable for discussion has been provided by the WRU.

The new agreement will further reflect the WRU's desire to ensure that Welsh player development and the retention of Welsh players is properly recognised. This is in the best interests of all of rugby in Wales, from the grass roots to the international level.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Casartelli wrote:'Regions' were never 'fit for purpose' and the Barclays 'credit risk guys' call the shots when it comes to the WRU finances (i.e. give 90% of the surplus to the bank, not the game).

A complete and utter farcical meltdown is, in many ways, the best thing that could have happened.  We may just create one or two relevant club/superclub/rheeeejhunal teams out of the mess.

Silver lining - none of this seems to affect the test team.  Shambolic administration seems to, somehow, produce a respectable national side.

Will it affect the test teams of the future. The regions have produced good players who now play in France and England but who will produce the players of the future?

The 'regions' have destroyed as much as they have created in terms of young talent. They even rejected Halfpenny at one stage. Roberts was a full-back until a proper coach had a look at him. The cream has risen to the top despite the regional set up, not because of it.

(This isn't a direct criticism of the regions as such. They never stood a chance, given the WRU's incompetence).

Munchkin wrote:From WRU website:

The Board of Directors of the Welsh Rugby Union met today and unanimously agreed that a positive way forward for professional rugby in Wales as set out in the WRU's statement of 31 December 2013, is in the best interests of Welsh rugby.
The WRU has today informed the four Regional Organisations that they will shortly be presented with a new agreement in respect of professional rugby in Wales. A timetable for discussion has been provided by the WRU.

The new agreement will further reflect the WRU's desire to ensure that Welsh player development and the retention of Welsh players is properly recognised. This is in the best interests of all of rugby in Wales, from the grass roots to the international level.

So at least that's not just it. This needs to be sorted out quickly because the Irish, Scots and Italians need to know who they're playing next year, not to mention sponsorship.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:From WRU website:

The Board of Directors of the Welsh Rugby Union met today and unanimously agreed that a positive way forward for professional rugby in Wales as set out in the WRU's statement of 31 December 2013, is in the best interests of Welsh rugby.
The WRU has today informed the four Regional Organisations that they will shortly be presented with a new agreement in respect of professional rugby in Wales. A timetable for discussion has been provided by the WRU.

The new agreement will further reflect the WRU's desire to ensure that Welsh player development and the retention of Welsh players is properly recognised. This is in the best interests of all of rugby in Wales, from the grass roots to the international level.

So at least that's not just it. This needs to be sorted out quickly because the Irish, Scots and Italians need to know who they're playing next year, not to mention sponsorship.

Says feck all really though about what the going to do, also just said on the BBC News that they are toying with idea of paying Regions dependant on the amount of Welsh players in their set up.

Can see that from certan point of view but what if say a Region has brought a player through their academy spent time and effort etc developing him but then he moves to a 'bigger' Region to get capped, which we all know happens or has happened.

Surely thats unfair on the Region that developed him, its obvious they trying to split the Regions as well.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:From WRU website:

The Board of Directors of the Welsh Rugby Union met today and unanimously agreed that a positive way forward for professional rugby in Wales as set out in the WRU's statement of 31 December 2013, is in the best interests of Welsh rugby.
The WRU has today informed the four Regional Organisations that they will shortly be presented with a new agreement in respect of professional rugby in Wales. A timetable for discussion has been provided by the WRU.

The new agreement will further reflect the WRU's desire to ensure that Welsh player development and the retention of Welsh players is properly recognised. This is in the best interests of all of rugby in Wales, from the grass roots to the international level.

So at least that's not just it. This needs to be sorted out quickly because the Irish, Scots and Italians need to know who they're playing next year, not to mention sponsorship.

There's still room for some sort of agreement, although if RRW are going to sign the contract then they will be signing up to remaining in the Rabo, ERC HEC and giving way on the central contracting issue at the very least, I would think.
The WRU may feel they have to offer the regions first refusal of the new contract keeping in mind any possible legal action against them later on. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, and the regions feel able to sign up, but it needs to be sorted very soon as you say. It has dragged on long enough, and the longer it drags on the more damaging it is for all involved, including those in the Rabo.

Griff wrote:Hardly 'brave' GC. Of all the threads I've read on this site and the old 606, this one has been pretty well observed. We're 19 pages on and no wumming as far as I can see. That's pretty rare. Probably the only thread I've stuck with long term. Certainly beats the 'Gatland robbed my Auntie and so shouldn't be knighted' threads.

This sort of thread is exactly what this site was set up for: good, honest, emotive debate.

Completely agree. Will provide no further attempt to bring the funny.

McCafferty/PRL ( The voice behind RRW? ) statement:



On behalf of its clubs, Premiership Rugby today welcomed the news that the Welsh Regions are backing the creation of the Rugby Champions Cup next season and has endorsed the need for resolution in a short timescale.
The concept of the new competitions was announced in September last year and as well as providing a strong, merit-based sporting format, the Rugby Champions Cup will deliver higher commercial values and a platform for expansion. It remains essential within the governance structure for the new competitions that the participant clubs are able to deliver this sporting and commercial improvement under the overall aegis of unions.

"We believe that the new competitions are clearly the best solution. They will deliver more matches between the top teams, as decided on merit, and as the Welsh Regions have stated, they will generate the financial returns to ensure continued strong investment into the club game, including player development and retention," said Premiership Rugby Chief Executive Mark McCafferty.


And this helps RRW in negotiations with WRU how exactly? Notice there's no mention of the regions joining with Aviva......

Munchkin wrote:From WRU website:

The Board of Directors of the Welsh Rugby Union met today and unanimously agreed that a positive way forward for professional rugby in Wales as set out in the WRU's statement of 31 December 2013, is in the best interests of Welsh rugby.
The WRU has today informed the four Regional Organisations that they will shortly be presented with a new agreement in respect of professional rugby in Wales. A timetable for discussion has been provided by the WRU.

The new agreement will further reflect the WRU's desire to ensure that Welsh player development and the retention of Welsh players is properly recognised. This is in the best interests of all of rugby in Wales, from the grass roots to the international level.

They are clearly going to put incentives in for the best players to remain in Wales. That said I am concerned that if based on numbers of current internationals a side like the Dragons (my team) would receive a whole lot less than a side with more of Gats squad in it. I don't disagree with that to some degree but surely how a regions finishes in the Pro12 should also incentives the teams to take the league more seriously. At least that gives everyone a benchmark.

The real problem with this agreement is how they will work the scheme because as it stands a lot of current internationals will be abroad. That could at least see the gap in funding between the Ospreys and Dragons for example not be as large as would have though usually so both sides may be only contributing a couple of players to the squad.

Let's wait and see...!

Looks positive.

Yep I think any talk of looking at a new agreement has to be viewed positive - at least they are working on it which is all anyone can ask at this stage really as I was worried the dialogue had completely broken down.

Welshmushroom wrote:Yep I think any talk of looking at a new agreement has to be viewed positive - at least they are working on it which is all anyone can ask at this stage really as I was worried the dialogue had completely broken down.

To a degree that is right but the standpoint is still the same as is the two alternatives for welsh non international professional rugby. Union control or syndicate business control.

In my mind the regions backers, owners, directors and business advisors have already shown they couldn't run a Pss up at the Brewery...! Ten years of it.

Now is a great opportunity to get rid of these guys and sort the situation out.

No rush, mun. The Millennium wasn't built in a day.

Let's extend the deadline another decade, get the guys round the table once a month and see if they can gradually thrash out a mutually beneficial deal going forward, bit by bit.

Casartelli wrote:No rush, mun.  The Millennium wasn't built in a day.

Let's extend the deadline another decade, get the guys round the table once a month and see if they can gradually thrash out a mutually beneficial deal going forward, bit by bit.

Why would we copy the English business model...?

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:No rush, mun.  The Millennium wasn't built in a day.

Let's extend the deadline another decade, get the guys round the table once a month and see if they can gradually thrash out a mutually beneficial deal going forward, bit by bit.

Why would we copy the English business model...?

That's a bit of a mindbender.

What's the least dangerous? Clueless rich benefactors or clueless union on a budget.....

....  

"Obviously both are desirable for the sake of Welsh rugby, should be achievable. All I'm saying is that my pea brain will not let me overcome the core problem which is that each side seems to be content for the other's needs to be met if this coincides incidentally with theirs." -George Carlin

I don't think that the fans, at least the ones posting on this thread, see it as an either/ or argument though. They seem to want both the international and the regional sides to be successful. When you said that international success wasn't a priority for them I didn't get that from the discussion. Still don't really.

As for what the regions want they are (if I'm following this correctly) facing falling attendances and a grim future. It would probably be a lot cheaper in the long run for the WRU to give more money to the existing regions than to set up new ones. If they do this in return for a greater say in how they're run this might not be welcomed by the regions though.

This welsh fan definitely wants both: strong something (I.e clubs or regions) AND a strong international team. The two definitely go hand in hand. But for me a strong international team is achieved through having the best access to players, WRU coaches and analysts linking with the clubs/regions (like they do already in Wales). But if our players are all abroad then we lose the access, proximity, links, coaching, watchful eye, etc. And until we can afford to keep them then the players will leave and the access will be further limited for a greater proportion of the squad. We'll end up in the situation of Fiji, Samoa, etc. where the players fly in from 'round Europe for a quick training session and then the game. We talk about creating strong domestic leagues for these countries to stop this very problem, but the same applies to us too.

So for me I want either: a) the union to buy the regions outright and bankroll them entirely and call all of the shots, so that there can be no fighting or blaming or fallouts. I can't see the WRU (or more specifically Roger) wanting to do this. I'm not sure they could afford it, but more importantly I don't think they/he would want to take the risk. The more I see of Roger the more I get the feeling that he's trying to grow his own profile as much as he can - and as chief exec paying off the debt as quick as possible, and not putting the WRU in financial difficulty, will make him look great! And I don't blame him to a certain extent from a career perspective. But, like a politician approaching an election, I don't think he wants to take any risks that could damage his 'star' and future career prospects, so this option is out for me; or b) the union to make up any existing funding shortfall harmoniously and un-begrudgingly (!). Yes that would be very generous, and people will call the regions greedy, but it's where we are and it's where we're falling behind. The WRU didn't have the money at the start so the clubs' owners generously set up at their own cost. Now the WRU does have money, it would be nice if they were to offer to help - and not just paying for 20 central contracts with all competition monies being stopped. Let's not do this on the cheap. Let's be transparent. Decide what it costs. Ask the senior players what they think - would more money (realistic money) keep them in Wales? A proper partnership is needed in this, not just the bare minimum calculated to keep the regions alive.

"So for me I want either: a) the union to buy the regions outright and bankroll them entirely and call all of the shots, so that there can be no fighting or blaming or fallouts. I can't see the WRU (or more specifically Roger) wanting to do this. I'm not sure they could afford it, but more importantly I don't think they/he would want to take the risk. The more I see of Roger the more I get the feeling that he's trying to grow his own profile as much as he can - and as chief exec paying off the debt as quick as possible, and not putting the WRU in financial difficulty, will make him look great! And I don't blame him to a certain extent from a career perspective. But, like a politician approaching an election, I don't think he wants to take any risks that could damage his 'star' and future career prospects, so this option is out for me; or b) the union to make up any existing funding shortfall harmoniously and un-begrudgingly (!). Yes that would be very generous, and people will call the regions greedy, but it's where we are and it's where we're falling behind. The WRU didn't have the money at the start so the clubs' owners generously set up at their own cost. Now the WRU does have money, it would be nice if they were to offer to help - and not just paying for 20 central contracts with all competition monies being stopped. Let's not do this on the cheap. Let's be transparent. Decide what it costs. Ask the senior players what they think - would more money (realistic money) keep them in Wales? A proper partnership is needed in this, not just the bare minimum calculated to keep the regions alive."

Option (a) is only an option if the regions offer themselves for sale. Option (b) makes sense, but if the WRU do this they really should get some guarantees and more power in return. Otherwise imaging a scenario where the regions get more money but still sell on their best players for profit when they see fit. To keep the players in Wales central contracts make the most sense for me. To save the regions it's logical that the WRU should increase funding to them too.

Sorry Intotouch, I failed to mention that. Yes, definitely the WRU should get some guarantees, should get more access, more control, more everything really if they put more in. I agree totally. That's what I meant by a proper partnership, not this standoff war ridden relationship we've got. That would be ideal, but will be far from easy to broker!

The problem with the last central contracts offer was that to pay for it, rather than use their own profits, the WRU said they'd use the £9m competitions money that is currently the life blood of the regions. So, they'd pay for the top 30 players but bankrupt the regions at the same time!

Didn't they say they would use the £6M and leave the region with just the £9M?

That wasn't my understating Hammer. But I'm not 100% confident!

That would make sense, as you wouldn't need player release payments if you're paying for their contracts. Can't see why they could turn that down to be honest, unless they thought the £6m wouldn't pay for many players?

I think the issue was that the £6M isn't just for player release. It's also for NWQ player limits and all the other stuff.

From what I read the central contract deal proposed would not have made any difference to the regions financially, perhaps they would have, like Hammer said, have less access to players if it went ahead.

If joining the AP means that they could stay solvent without ceding power to the WRU I can see why they'd go for that.

Here's a radio podcast with Eddie O'Sullivan and Shane Horgan discussing what's going on in Wales and the ramifications for the pro 12. (The second half of the conversation focuses on Irish player exodus issues)
It's from yesterday, about 10minutes in:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/second-captains

One thing they said that shocked me was that the sponsorship deal runs out next year. This chaos will scare off sponsors even if it's sorted. In other words the whole competition could end, the income for all the countries involved will be impacted either way.

If the dip into the AP doesn't work out there may not be a pro12 competition to go back to.

Yeah RaboDirect ended their sponsorship deal early. There was some talk that it was allowed because they had a better sponsor lined up, but nothing mentioned yet.

More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

Cardiff Dave wrote:More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

Intotouch wrote:One thing they said that shocked me was that the sponsorship deal runs out next year. This chaos will scare off sponsors even if it's sorted. In other words the whole competition could end, the income for all the countries involved will be impacted either way.

If the dip into the AP doesn't work out there may not be a pro12 competition to go back to.

Yup and yup!

WRU & RRW fallout is creating massive issues. Forget possible leagues and competitions - first up who the flip is running rugby in Wales. Sort it out before it all goes to hell. Get around the blydi table and come to a blydi agreement. Keep this crap up and you will lose the game in Wales to wendyball. Kids are growing up in Llanelli going to watch the Swans because it's a better spectacle in a strong brand. To me that is an anathema. I was gutted RRW came back with yet another deadline. Bunch of wusses. If you're going to do something, get on with it! Same goes for the WRU and their ridiculous "new agreement." For Grud's sake you need to agree between you what is going to happen NOT pontificate and posture.

Sorry feeling grumpy ... stupid losing to poxy ospreys   

Cardiff Dave wrote:More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

On a side note Sky have signed up to the Pro 12 for 30 featured games for the tune of 5 million a season. It is understood this will also feature the semi finals and finals at the play offs.

My understanding here is the BBC Wales deal is worth the tune of 3 million. It is unclear how this will affect the current schedule they receive now as I am sure the 30 game deal Sky have the exclusive too will almost certainly include some of the more high profile matches in Ireland & Wales as well as how many games BBC Wales will be allowed to screen.

I see this as the beginning of the investment from Sky who will likely be reeling from the loss of the Aviva rights. If all the Celtic clubs can actually keep it together this could become very lucrative in the long run for them.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:first up who the flip is running rugby in Wales.

Good question. Somebody must be or maybe nobody is.
Years of non negotiation and it's come to this which is not the "envy of the world" Rog.
Anyone remember the Welsh team parking up in a service station on their way to Twickers not so many years ago or am I dreaming that? I'm sure it happened because of a dispute regarding appearance money or something like that.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

On a side note Sky have signed up to the Pro 12 for 30 featured games for the tune of 5 million a season.  It is understood this will also feature the semi finals and finals at the play offs.  

My understanding here is the BBC Wales deal is worth the tune of 3 million.  It is unclear how this will affect the current schedule they receive now as I am sure the 30 game deal Sky have the exclusive too will almost certainly include some of the more high profile matches in Ireland & Wales as well as how many games BBC Wales will be allowed to screen.  

I see this as the beginning of the investment from Sky who will likely be reeling from the loss of the Aviva rights.  If all the Celtic clubs can actually keep it together this could become very lucrative in the long run for them.  

That's a positive from you then WM which is good, but what I can't fathom are the bits in bold. One side is saying a deal has been concluded the other is saying it hasn't.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

On a side note Sky have signed up to the Pro 12 for 30 featured games for the tune of 5 million a season.  It is understood this will also feature the semi finals and finals at the play offs.  

My understanding here is the BBC Wales deal is worth the tune of 3 million.  It is unclear how this will affect the current schedule they receive now as I am sure the 30 game deal Sky have the exclusive too will almost certainly include some of the more high profile matches in Ireland & Wales as well as how many games BBC Wales will be allowed to screen.  

I see this as the beginning of the investment from Sky who will likely be reeling from the loss of the Aviva rights.  If all the Celtic clubs can actually keep it together this could become very lucrative in the long run for them.

Very much so ... particularly if games are going to be mostly on Sky that should translate into a boost for attendances. Come on WRU/RRW - get your act together! This pathetic stand-off is not getting us anywhere!

Anyone know some "professional" men? I think it's time we abducted the bigwigs at RRW/WRU and stuck them in a room together with one toilet and a big table and say to them "You're not coming out until you agree on how you're going to work together!"

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:first up who the flip is running rugby in Wales.

Good question. Somebody must be or maybe nobody is.
Years of non negotiation and it's come to this which is not the "envy of the world" Rog.
Anyone remember the Welsh team parking up in a service station on their way to Twickers not so many years ago or am I dreaming that? I'm sure it happened because of a dispute regarding appearance money or something like that.

Wasn't that the insurance costs which the players were not happy with as they were uninsured, or poorly insured, when playing for Wales? Or was that a different 'spat'? There was definitely a player insurance bust up in the not too distant past.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:More fuel for the fire, as if there wasn't enough already;

"BBC Wales yet to commit to deal to screen Pro12 games next season as Welsh rugby civil war rages on.

In a statement BBC Wales said: “We can confirm that discussions regarding broadcasting rights for the Pro12 have not been concluded. We are monitoring the current situation closely.”

A spokesman for the WRU said: “Discussions [with BBC Wales] have been concluded and we are awaiting formal sign off.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bbc-wales-yet-commit-deal-6466953

On a side note Sky have signed up to the Pro 12 for 30 featured games for the tune of 5 million a season.  It is understood this will also feature the semi finals and finals at the play offs.  

My understanding here is the BBC Wales deal is worth the tune of 3 million.  It is unclear how this will affect the current schedule they receive now as I am sure the 30 game deal Sky have the exclusive too will almost certainly include some of the more high profile matches in Ireland & Wales as well as how many games BBC Wales will be allowed to screen.  

I see this as the beginning of the investment from Sky who will likely be reeling from the loss of the Aviva rights.  If all the Celtic clubs can actually keep it together this could become very lucrative in the long run for them.  

That's a positive from you then WM which is good, but what I can't fathom are the bits in bold. One side is saying a deal has been concluded the other is saying it hasn't.

WRU saying it's all written up, just needs to be signed. BBC saying we're not signing until we're sure there will be a competition to broadcast.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:first up who the flip is running rugby in Wales.

Good question. Somebody must be or maybe nobody is.
Years of non negotiation and it's come to this which is not the "envy of the world" Rog.
Anyone remember the Welsh team parking up in a service station on their way to Twickers not so many years ago or am I dreaming that? I'm sure it happened because of a dispute regarding appearance money or something like that.

Wasn't that the insurance costs which the players were not happy with as they were uninsured, or poorly insured, when playing for Wales? Or was that a different 'spat'? There was definitely a player insurance bust up in the not too distant past.

Glad somebody remembers the incident. Insurance issues ring a bell of sorts, but the team did stop on their way to a game which is damning enough.