New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

But not really what we, the fans, actually want?  It's a massive shame

Well it seems to be what me and Sin e want but that's just the two of us.

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sin é wrote:Unions meeting in Dublin as they reaffirm loyalty to ERC
Tuesday, January 07, 2014

The Irish Rugby Football Union will sit down with its counterparts from France, Italy, Scotland and Wales today to reaffirm its commitment to an ERC-organised pan-European club competition for next season.

By Simon Lewis
Irish Examiner Reporter

Amid speculation about proposals for cross-border formats involving Anglo-Welsh alliances and a British and Irish Cup, as well as the English Premiership’s Rugby Champions Cup, the five unions will meet in Dublin today with the intent of showing the rugby world they have the only genuine show in town for 2014-2015, by which time the current European Rugby Cup accord will have dissolved.

Is this really what this has devolved down to?  Really?  This is childish.  
No wonder there is no agreement.  We have a big boy sport and a big boy business and little boys at the helm.

Yes, its rather sad that the 5 Unions have to do this to counter the lies and distortions fed to and regurgitated by the English press.

Sadly bro, this comment shows more of the same.  Apologies, because I do not want to be insulting.  
As I have said before everyone is at fault.  I am amazed how anyone can debate this.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

But not really what we, the fans, actually want?  It's a massive shame

Damn effing right, my friend.  Not what we want, big shame.
 
When I was back in England over the holidays I spent a fair amount of time at Saints, attending training and having the occasional pint.  No one, coaches, players, management, and especially fans want this.   It is so ruddy childish at this point on all sides to be almost pathetic.

It seems like the two options on the table are an ERC competition without teams from England on Sky or a British and Irish Cup without the French and Italians on BT Sport.

From a purely rugby point of view, I'd much rather play against the French teams than the English but I'm completely fed up with this whole mess. It seems set to just run and run... by the time it comes to renew my season ticket for next season I'd like to know what I'm renewing it for.

doctor_grey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

But not really what we, the fans, actually want?  It's a massive shame

Damn effing right, my friend.  Not what we want, big shame.
 
When I was back in England over the holidays I spent a fair amount of time at Saints, attending training and having the occasional pint.  No one, coaches, players, management, and especially fans want this.   It is so ruddy childish at this point on all sides to be almost pathetic.

Bravo

PS there's nowt as good as mutual reinforcement!

Notch wrote:It seems like the two options on the table are an ERC competition without teams from England on Sky or a British and Irish Cup without the French and Italians on BT Sport.

From a purely rugby point of view, I'd much rather play against the French teams than the English but I'm completely fed up with this whole mess. It seems set to just run and run...  by the time it comes to renew my season ticket for next season I'd like to know what I'm renewing it for.

Well there are ERC competitions on Sky (current offering is 5 nations [ex. England]). Another option would be an organisation overseen by someone else (FIRA-AER or 6 Nations) with the games on BT [potentially inc. England] or anyone else [ex. England]. No reason why a European competition (with all 6 Countries involved) couldn't be televised on BT, unless the FFR are deadset against playing with the English (I doubt they care who has the UK TV rights). They'd probably be on board if it was overseen FIRA-AER (or at least would be next year).

Aslong as the Celtic Unions don't have to sign up to FIRA-AER control now then the 5 Nations Euro cup is certainly most likely. If the FFR are demanding that the FIRA-AER is signed up to now for either next year or the ones after that then it might not happen.

The whole thing has dragged on far too long to the point where the original disagreement has been almost forgotten.

The PRL appear to be ruled out of an ERC tournament and the French have still said they will not play unless the English are involved and they didn't get their FIRA demand.

The RRW want the extra BT money as part of the PA deal with the WRU and on that basis it is looking like the Welsh have the deciding vote on which way this falls.

I still think the English clubs should have their own RFU knockout competition and a few giant killing dramas. Some of the test sides masquerading as clubs or regions makes the euro comp a mini six nations and I understand the economic argument but which really should be saved for the real thing.

Recwatcher wrote:The whole thing has dragged on far too long to the point where the original disagreement has been almost forgotten.

The PRL appear to be ruled out of an ERC tournament and the French have still said they will not play unless the English are involved and they didn't get their FIRA demand.  

The RRW want the extra BT money as part of the PA deal with the WRU and on that basis it is looking like the Welsh have the deciding vote on which way this falls.

I still think the English clubs should have their own RFU knockout competition and a few giant killing dramas. Some of the test sides masquerading as clubs or regions makes the euro comp a mini six nations and I understand the economic argument but which really should be saved for the real thing.

The PRL have ruled themselves out of an ERC tournament as they won't breach contracts (BT). The LNR (French clubs) have kind of said they won't play without the English (Goze) but I think the FFR said it was unconditional and they've since signed a PA (not sure what it says, some have said it states the LNR have to play in ERC competitions, I've not seen anything in the official resleases that say this, who knows). The FFR are the ones that want the FIRA-AER (as they set up the FIRA to rival the IRB back in the day, it was only in the 90s (I think) that the FIRA became part of the IRB and changed to the AER bit). Whether their demand was for the next year, for the following, and whether the next year was conditional on agreement is not clear (unless you're TJ) but will hopefully sorted out today (?)

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:It seems like the two options on the table are an ERC competition without teams from England on Sky or a British and Irish Cup without the French and Italians on BT Sport.

From a purely rugby point of view, I'd much rather play against the French teams than the English but I'm completely fed up with this whole mess. It seems set to just run and run...  by the time it comes to renew my season ticket for next season I'd like to know what I'm renewing it for.

Well there are ERC competitions on Sky (current offering is 5 nations [ex. England]).  Another option would be an organisation overseen by someone else (FIRA-AER or 6 Nations) with the games on BT [potentially inc. England] or anyone else [ex. England].  No reason why a European competition (with all 6 Countries involved) couldn't be televised on BT, unless the FFR are deadset against playing with the English (I doubt they care who has the UK TV rights). They'd probably be on board if it was overseen FIRA-AER (or at least would be next year).

Aslong as the Celtic Unions don't have to sign up to FIRA-AER control now then the 5 Nations Euro cup is certainly most likely. If the FFR are demanding that the FIRA-AER is signed up to now for either next year or the ones after that then it might not happen.

It may well be in the Unions interests to sign up to a FIRA deal, but no need to jump in and sign just yet. The Unions should just get on with the HEC competition for next season, and sort out the details in the interim. Not that the Unions are ever quick to make decisions....
The AP teams should be involved. Their remaining outside of next seasons competition makes little sense, and benefits nobody, including them. I don't buy the argument that they can't participate due to the BT deal.

I know you don't. Of course in the release it was clearly stated that BT hold the UK broadcast rights for any future European competitions the English teams are involved in after the 13/14 season. Since then nothing has even hinted that it's true.

But everyone can believe what they want to believe.

Of course the idea there is something in the contract that specifical blocks them from a competition organised by the ERC or one that is televised by Sky in anyway is complete cowpat.

Paul Rees told me and he know's his Poopie.

HammerofThunor wrote:I know you don't. Of course in the release it was clearly stated that BT hold the UK broadcast rights for any future European competitions the English teams are involved in after the 13/14 season. Since then nothing has even hinted that it's true.

But everyone can believe what they want to believe.

Of course the idea there is something in the contract that specifical blocks them from a competition organised by the ERC or one that is televised by Sky in anyway is complete cowpat.

Paul Rees told me and he know's his Poopie.

He should do. He talks enough of it   

I don't know how the BT deal works, but I'm sure PRL and BT can come to an agreement which releases them to take part in an ERC HEC next season. Even if that means BT scrapping the current contract.
RRW are meeting today to discuss the new PA, as are the Unions to reaffirm their commitment to next years HEC apparently. An interesting week.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:The whole thing has dragged on far too long to the point where the original disagreement has been almost forgotten.

The PRL appear to be ruled out of an ERC tournament and the French have still said they will not play unless the English are involved and they didn't get their FIRA demand.  

The RRW want the extra BT money as part of the PA deal with the WRU and on that basis it is looking like the Welsh have the deciding vote on which way this falls.

I still think the English clubs should have their own RFU knockout competition and a few giant killing dramas. Some of the test sides masquerading as clubs or regions makes the euro comp a mini six nations and I understand the economic argument but which really should be saved for the real thing.

The PRL have ruled themselves out of an ERC tournament as they won't breach contracts (BT).  The LNR (French clubs) have kind of said they won't play without the English (Goze) but I think the FFR said it was unconditional and they've since signed a PA (not sure what it says, some have said it states the LNR have to play in ERC competitions, I've not seen anything in the official resleases that say this, who knows). The FFR are the ones that want the FIRA-AER (as they set up the FIRA to rival the IRB back in the day, it was only in the 90s (I think) that the FIRA became part of the IRB and changed to the AER bit). Whether their demand was for the next year, for the following, and whether the next year was conditional on agreement is not clear (unless you're TJ) but will hopefully sorted out today (?)

their PA has been published, and there is absolutely nothing in it whatsoever committing french clubs or the french union to ERC. it mentions how monies received from ERC "or whoever runs a european competition" will be distributed. but very carefully avoids any written commitment to ERC at all. that is clearly not an accident given Camou and Lapasset's liking for FIRA-AER.

HammerofThunor wrote:
The PRL have ruled themselves out of an ERC tournament as they won't breach contracts (BT).  The LNR (French clubs) have kind of said they won't play without the English (Goze) but I think the FFR said it was unconditional and they've since signed a PA (not sure what it says, some have said it states the LNR have to play in ERC competitions, I've not seen anything in the official resleases that say this, who knows). The FFR are the ones that want the FIRA-AER (as they set up the FIRA to rival the IRB back in the day, it was only in the 90s (I think) that the FIRA became part of the IRB and changed to the AER bit). Whether their demand was for the next year, for the following, and whether the next year was conditional on agreement is not clear (unless you're TJ) but will hopefully sorted out today (?)

I've saw* the actual agreement (think it was Clause 16) which stated that the LNR would agree to play in an ERC organised competition for the next 4 years.

According to Paul Rees, Camou stormed out of the meeting in Dublin in December because he was pushing FIRA to organise the event.

Two weeks later (minus the RFU), the rest of the Nations are again meeting in Dublin to reaffirm their commitment to an ERC organised 5 Nation Heineken Cup.

I believe Brett Gospor (IRB CEO) is also in Dublin today.

*I'm sure it was posted on this forum. Just haven't a clue how to find it.

I don't remember ever seeing the actual agreement. Perhaps it was somewhere else (or I just missed it).

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:The whole thing has dragged on far too long to the point where the original disagreement has been almost forgotten.

The PRL appear to be ruled out of an ERC tournament and the French have still said they will not play unless the English are involved and they didn't get their FIRA demand.  

The RRW want the extra BT money as part of the PA deal with the WRU and on that basis it is looking like the Welsh have the deciding vote on which way this falls.

I still think the English clubs should have their own RFU knockout competition and a few giant killing dramas. Some of the test sides masquerading as clubs or regions makes the euro comp a mini six nations and I understand the economic argument but which really should be saved for the real thing.

The PRL have ruled themselves out of an ERC tournament as they won't breach contracts (BT).  The LNR (French clubs) have kind of said they won't play without the English (Goze) but I think the FFR said it was unconditional and they've since signed a PA (not sure what it says, some have said it states the LNR have to play in ERC competitions, I've not seen anything in the official resleases that say this, who knows). The FFR are the ones that want the FIRA-AER (as they set up the FIRA to rival the IRB back in the day, it was only in the 90s (I think) that the FIRA became part of the IRB and changed to the AER bit). Whether their demand was for the next year, for the following, and whether the next year was conditional on agreement is not clear (unless you're TJ) but will hopefully sorted out today (?)

their PA has been published, and there is absolutely nothing in it whatsoever committing french clubs or the french union to ERC. it mentions how monies received from ERC "or whoever runs a european competition" will be distributed. but very carefully avoids any written commitment to ERC at all. that is clearly not an accident given Camou and Lapasset's liking for FIRA-AER.

Isn't Jean-Paul Lux, the chairman of the ERC, a great pal of Camou & Lapasset?
Wouldn't look good for the FFR to dump on him.

Depends, Lux is on his way out and could be set up as the chairman of the new FIRA-AER Domestic European Cup. That's how these things work isn't it? Or will Lux retire completely and Comou get that spot?

I've just realised, are you suggesting the ERC and IRB are inherently helping each other out due to friendly relationships? All mates and jobs for the boys? That's pretty disgraceful if true.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't remember ever seeing the actual agreement. Perhaps it was somewhere else (or I just missed it).

Could have been Munsterfans (who have a couple of French posters who unearth and supply a lot of information there. The guy who owns/runs the site is French living in France and married to an Irish woman who support Munster).

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't remember ever seeing the actual agreement. Perhaps it was somewhere else (or I just missed it).

Could have been Munsterfans (who have a couple of French posters who unearth and supply a lot of information there. The guy who owns/runs the site is French living in France and married to an Irish woman who support Munster).

Yeah a lot of that sort of stuff seems to come from their. I don't go routinely and just follow specific links for stuff.

i read the entire french PA. every word. it's on the FFR website, and various other places. and i am telling you there is absolutely no written commitment to ERC.

and yes Thunor, i am sure JP Lux will be taken care of by his buddies.

HammerofThunor wrote:Depends, Lux is on his way out and could be set up as the chairman of the new FIRA-AER Domestic European Cup. That's how these things work isn't it? Or will Lux retire completely and Comou get that spot?

I've just realised, are you suggesting the ERC and IRB are inherently helping each other out due to friendly relationships? All mates and jobs for the boys? That's pretty disgraceful if true.

Chairing a so-called 'failed' organisation wouldn't look good on his cv though!

It would be a bit of a comedown from being Chair of the FFR for Camou to that. I'd imagine he has his eyes set on IRB chair after Lapassat.

quinsforever wrote:i read the entire french PA. every word. it's on the FFR website, and various other places. and i am telling you there is absolutely no written commitment to ERC.

Link?

quinsforever wrote:i read the entire french PA. every word. it's on the FFR website, and various other places. and i am telling you there is absolutely no written commitment to ERC.

and yes Thunor, i am sure JP Lux will be taken care of by his buddies.

Can you supply a link?

What does Clause 16 say?

http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/CONVENTION_2013-2017.pdf

article 16 is to do with club training centres.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Depends, Lux is on his way out and could be set up as the chairman of the new FIRA-AER Domestic European Cup. That's how these things work isn't it? Or will Lux retire completely and Comou get that spot?

I've just realised, are you suggesting the ERC and IRB are inherently helping each other out due to friendly relationships? All mates and jobs for the boys? That's pretty disgraceful if true.

Chairing a so-called 'failed' organisation wouldn't look good on his cv though!

It would be a bit of a comedown from being Chair of the FFR for Camou to that. I'd imagine he has his eyes set on IRB chair after Lapassat.

Why is the FIRA-AER DRC a failed organisation? It hasn't even been set up yet. Talk about jumping the gun. IRB Chair would make a more sensible aim.

It seems to be Article 14

"Conformément aux termes du préambule de la Convention, la représentation du Rugby français au plan international relève de la compétence de la FFR.
 A ce titre, la FFR est notamment compétente pour autoriser les clubs membres de la LNR à participer chaque saison aux compétitions européennes et pour les y inscrire, sur proposition de la LNR, selon les dispositions des accords conclus pour l’organisation et la gestion de ces compétitions, étant précisé qu’à la date de la signature de la Convention l’organisme gérant ces compétitions européennes est l’ERC.
 A défaut de propositions de la LNR, la FFR sera libre de procéder librement à l’inscription de clubs membres de la LNR avec leur accord, aux compétitions européennes.
 La FFR s’engage à soutenir avec la LNR une optimisation des compétitions, et une évolution de l’organisation et du fonctionnement interne de la structure organisatrice des compétitions européennes dans le cadre de la structure actuelle puis au sein de la FIRA-AER.
 Plus généralement, la FFR s’engage à associer la LNR à la recherche de solutions communes dans les dossiers relevant des institutions internationales concernant l’organisation des compétitions et toute autre question intéressant directement ou indirectement le Rugby professionnel ;
 La FFR et la LNR conviennent d’engager une démarche conjointe en vue de la mise en place d’organes en charge du secteur professionnel au sein des institutions internationales, auxquels participeront l’ensemble des acteurs concernés ;"

It seems to be Article 14

"Conformément aux termes du préambule de la Convention, la représentation du Rugby français au plan international relève de la compétence de la FFR.
 A ce titre, la FFR est notamment compétente pour autoriser les clubs membres de la LNR à participer chaque saison aux compétitions européennes et pour les y inscrire, sur proposition de la LNR, selon les dispositions des accords conclus pour l’organisation et la gestion de ces compétitions, étant précisé qu’à la date de la signature de la Convention l’organisme gérant ces compétitions européennes est l’ERC.
 A défaut de propositions de la LNR, la FFR sera libre de procéder librement à l’inscription de clubs membres de la LNR avec leur accord, aux compétitions européennes.
 La FFR s’engage à soutenir avec la LNR une optimisation des compétitions, et une évolution de l’organisation et du fonctionnement interne de la structure organisatrice des compétitions européennes dans le cadre de la structure actuelle puis au sein de la FIRA-AER.
 Plus généralement, la FFR s’engage à associer la LNR à la recherche de solutions communes dans les dossiers relevant des institutions internationales concernant l’organisation des compétitions et toute autre question intéressant directement ou indirectement le Rugby professionnel ;
 La FFR et la LNR conviennent d’engager une démarche conjointe en vue de la mise en place d’organes en charge du secteur professionnel au sein des institutions internationales, auxquels participeront l’ensemble des acteurs concernés ;"

quinsforever wrote:http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/CONVENTION_2013-2017.pdf

article 16 is to do with club training centres.

Thanks for that.

this is the link to the financial protocole

http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/ANNEXE_2_PROTOCOLE_FINANCIER_2013-2017.pdf

see article 5 where referring to European Cups monies, it says "A la date de signature des présentes, l’European Rugby Club (ERC) organise et commercialise les Coupes d’Europe (H Cup, et Challenge)."

this is the only mention of ERC, and it actually says that "ERC organises and commercialised european cups at the date of these signatures." that's hardly a commitment for 4 years, or even another year.

Damn you sin e . You can't delete posts that have been replied to   

Google translate is awesome. It would be quicker to learn French than decipher the translation.

Chapter 4 Article 14 refers to ERC. EDIT: IF "l'ERC" is the ERC

quinsforever wrote:this is the link to the financial protocole

http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/ANNEXE_2_PROTOCOLE_FINANCIER_2013-2017.pdf

see article 5 where referring to European Cups monies, it says "A la date de signature des présentes, l’European Rugby Club (ERC) organise et commercialise les Coupes d’Europe (H Cup, et Challenge)."

this is the only mention of ERC, and it actually says that "ERC organises and commercialised european cups at the date of these signatures." that's hardly a commitment for 4 years, or even another year.

What about article 14?

"In this respect, the FFR is especially competent to authorize members of the NRL clubs to participate in European competitions each season and for the register, on a proposal from the NRL , in accordance with agreements for the organization and management these competitions , it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body."

"

thx hammer

"étant précisé qu’à la date de la signature de la Convention l’organisme gérant ces compétitions européennes est l’ERC"

"to be precise, at the date of signing of this PA, the organisation looking after european competitions is ERC"

also "La FFR s’engage à soutenir avec la LNR une optimisation des compétitions, et une évolution de l’organisation et du fonctionnement interne de la structure organisatrice des compétitions européennes dans le cadre de la structure actuelle puis au sein de la FIRA-AER."

= "FFR/LNR seeking to optimise competitions in european club rugby, and evolve the organisation and functioning of these european competitions in the current structure and then within the bosom of the FRIA-AER"

Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Depends, Lux is on his way out and could be set up as the chairman of the new FIRA-AER Domestic European Cup. That's how these things work isn't it? Or will Lux retire completely and Comou get that spot?

I've just realised, are you suggesting the ERC and IRB are inherently helping each other out due to friendly relationships? All mates and jobs for the boys? That's pretty disgraceful if true.

Chairing a so-called 'failed' organisation wouldn't look good on his cv though!

It would be a bit of a comedown from being Chair of the FFR for Camou to that. I'd imagine he has his eyes set on IRB chair after Lapassat.

Why is the FIRA-AER DRC a failed organisation? It hasn't even been set up yet. Talk about jumping the gun. IRB Chair would make a more sensible aim.

I was talking about the ERC being a failed organisation, bearing in mind that Lux would have been responsible for ERC signing the Sky Agreement which could lead to the ERC (Unions) liable to breach of contract if they don't fulfill their obligations.

Thanks quinns for that - it looks like the FFR have tied the LNR into participating in some sort of a cross border competition after all.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

It means that from the date of signing it has been agreed by LNR that they participate in an ERC run competition.

Quins, so that suggests the ERC will continue to run European cups until the FIRA-AER take over?

What does this entire bit mean?

"A ce titre, la FFR est notamment compétente pour autoriser les clubs membres de la LNR à participer chaque saison aux compétitions européennes et pour les y inscrire, sur proposition de la LNR, selon les dispositions des accords conclus pour l’organisation et la gestion de ces compétitions, étant précisé qu’à la date de la signature de la Convention l’organisme gérant ces compétitions européennes est l’ERC."

Is it the LNR agreeing to join the ERC competitions, or is it FFR giving permission to join ERC competitions? As in have they already signed up to it or is it agreed in potential, if you follow?

you're welcome sin e.

the LNR do have to agree to participate though. that's the "la FFR sera libre de procéder librement à l’inscription de clubs membres de la LNR avec leur accord, aux compétitions européennes." bit. means with their agreement.

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

It means that from the date of signing it has been agreed by LNR that they participate in an ERC run competition.

i think it actually just is specifying who runs euro cups at the date of signing of the PA. nothing more. and certainly nothing forward looking.

Sin é wrote:I was talking about the ERC being a failed organisation, bearing in mind that Lux would have been responsible for ERC signing the Sky Agreement which could lead to the ERC (Unions) liable to breach of contract if they don't fulfill their obligations.

But I didn't suggest Conou would join the ERC. Haven't you heard? The ERC is dead. Also, if the ERC signed up to a TV deal they had to fulfil when the participants (including the unions) hadn't signed up to take part in it, then he would deserve everything he got?

If however they signed as 'if the competition continues you get the TV rights' kind of deal then no problem.

"FFR has responsibility for authorising LNR member clubs participation each season in Euro competitions, and for signing them up, at the instigation of the LNR, to any new organising body of these competitions, specifying that at the signing of the PA, that organising body of euro cups is ERC"

french legalese is painful. but it appears to be making clear that FFR has responsibility to negotiatie, at LNR's suggestion, participation in any new competitions (RCC or renewed ERC post june 2014 or whatever else), and also for authorising their ongoing participation each year.

all of article 14 is really just laying down how the process for Euro club comps works between the FFR and LNR. it is clarifying the mechanism, and hinting at making "improvements" while aiming to get FIRA-AER more involved.

classic french institutional stuff!

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:I was talking about the ERC being a failed organisation, bearing in mind that Lux would have been responsible for ERC signing the Sky Agreement which could lead to the ERC (Unions) liable to breach of contract if they don't fulfill their obligations.

But I didn't suggest Conou would join the ERC. Haven't you heard? The ERC is dead.  Also, if the ERC signed up to a TV deal they had to fulfil when the participants (including the unions) hadn't signed up to take part in it, then he would deserve everything he got?

If however they signed as 'if the competition continues you get the TV rights' kind of deal then no problem.

I thought you suggested that Camou would be the Chair of this new FIRA organisation that would control the European Cup (Camou was Hon Treauser of FIRA up to taking over as FFR President). I thought he has his eyes set on something IRB chair after Lapassat.

You may think he deserved to be dropped, but its highly unlikely his own countrymen are going to stab him in the back.

Anyone know what Serge Blanco's opinion is on FIRA (he is in line to take over from Camou).

quinsforever wrote:all of article 14 is really just laying down how the process for Euro club comps works between the FFR and LNR. it is clarifying the mechanism, and hinting at making "improvements" while aiming to get FIRA-AER more involved.

classic french institutional stuff!

The ERC/FIRA/European Cup (whichever) will be looking to all the participating Unions to sign up to participating in whatever competition they are organising for at least 5 years. You seriously think the FFR would leave themselves open to having signed agreement with the organisers for the LNR to decide that they didn't want to play in it after all!

You must be having a laugh!

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

It means that from the date of signing it has been agreed by LNR that they participate in an ERC run competition.

i think it actually just is specifying who runs euro cups at the date of signing of the PA. nothing more. and certainly nothing forward looking.

It is saying that LNR agree to the current structure, as from the date of signing, along with agreeing to any FFR changes to that structure - FIRA-AER.

It's speaking of what had been agreed between the 5 Unions - ERC HEC, and the possible transition of governance which, I think, has still to be agreed - FIRA-AER.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

It means that from the date of signing it has been agreed by LNR that they participate in an ERC run competition.

i think it actually just is specifying who runs euro cups at the date of signing of the PA. nothing more. and certainly nothing forward looking.

It is saying that LNR agree to the current structure, as from the date of signing, along with agreeing to any FFR changes to that structure - FIRA-AER.

It's speaking of what had been agreed between the 5 Unions - ERC HEC, and the possible transition of governance which, I think, has still to be agreed - FIRA-AER.

no, it's not.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:all of article 14 is really just laying down how the process for Euro club comps works between the FFR and LNR. it is clarifying the mechanism, and hinting at making "improvements" while aiming to get FIRA-AER more involved.

classic french institutional stuff!

The ERC/FIRA/European Cup (whichever) will be looking to all the participating  Unions to sign up to participating in whatever competition they are organising for at least 5 years. You seriously think the FFR would leave themselves open to having signed agreement with the organisers for the LNR to decide that they didn't want to play in it after all!

You must be having a laugh!

i didnt say that. i said (actually their PA says) that the FFR can't sign the LNR up to anything unless the LNR agree. once signed up they (the LNR) would obviously have to honour the terms of their contract with the organising body (which is ERC until june 2014).

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah that makes no real sense. "it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body"??? Does that mean "at the time of signature the ERC organsies these events" Or something else?

It means that from the date of signing it has been agreed by LNR that they participate in an ERC run competition.

i think it actually just is specifying who runs euro cups at the date of signing of the PA. nothing more. and certainly nothing forward looking.

It is saying that LNR agree to the current structure, as from the date of signing, along with agreeing to any FFR changes to that structure - FIRA-AER.

It's speaking of what had been agreed between the 5 Unions - ERC HEC, and the possible transition of governance which, I think, has still to be agreed - FIRA-AER.

no, it's not.

I'm not saying that it's specifying that, quins. I am saying that it is allowing that ERC HEC runs according to the 5 Union agreement, and also that it's allowing that after that agreement expires, one season, they, the LNR, agree to a new structure if implemented - FIRA-AER.

It really can't be saying anything else. FFR had already agreed an ERC run HEC.

it's allowing everything, as long as it follows the process outlined in article 14.

what it doesnt do is commit FFR or LNR to anything after june 2014.

quinsforever wrote:it's allowing everything, as long as it follows the process outlined in article 14.

what it doesnt do is commit FFR or LNR to anything after june 2014.

No, it doesn't. What it does do is commit LNR to next years ERC HEC should FFR agree to participation. FFR has agreed to next years HEC according to the 5 Unions agreement, as I have already pointed out.
I don't know if the article by Paul Rees suggesting that Camou has withdrawn his support for the 5 Unions agreement, is true. I doubt it, but hopefully the 5 Unions will issue a statement today which will shed some light on that.

an ERC run HEC next season would require a new agreement to be signed between all participants (current one expires june 2014). therefore, as per the PA just agreed between FFR and LNR, the FFR would negotiate the new terms (as it is a new agreement) on behalf of the LNR, and would need the approval of the LNR to do so.

the french are sticklers for institutional process so that is exactly what will need to happen as that is exactly what is written down.

and just to be clear, there is no HEC next year until a brand new participation agreement is negotiated between all parties as the current one expires june 2014. even if its only for 1 year, it still needs to be renegotiated, because as things stand, with a simple "extension" the RFU and PRL will still have votes, board seats and 24% of the revenue.