New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

lots of things have been agreed, which have since been disagreed.

however absolutely nothing has been contractually entered into.

for example, for ERC to continue beyond june 2014, a brand new participation agreement needs to be drawn up and entered into. not a trivial matter at the moment methinks.

Yo9u see this is why I am laughing at this thread. watching folk deny reality so they can cling to their dreams. the reality is very simple.

the FFR cannot withdraw from next years comp.

without a new participation agreement there is no ERC beyond june 2014.

that is the only "fact".

a press release does not count as a contract.

TJ wrote:Yo9u see this is why I am laughing at this thread.  watching folk deny reality so they can cling to their dreams.  the reality is very simple.

the FFR cannot withdraw from next years comp.

I'm not clinging to any dreams, I'd be much happier to know there definitely was an ERC competition next year as opposed to having nothing confirmed- the reality is it remains up in the air.

As 5 unions and the FFR have agreed the outline structure for next year what will happen is something very close to that. IIRC it does not have to be the ERC - only that it is union controlled.

quinsforever wrote:without a new participation agreement there is no ERC beyond june 2014.

that is the only "fact".

a press release does not count as a contract.

However an agreement between 5 unions and the FFR is a fact. an inconvenient one for you quins as it means the RCC is dead and the PRL are isolated but thats it. No more negotiation for next year. Merely details to settle and until we are certain the PRL will not join in the details are hard to settle but it will be based on the structure agreed

TJ wrote:As 5 unions and the FFR have agreed the outline structure for next year what will happen is something very close to that.   IIRC it does not have to be the ERC - only that it is union controlled.

my only point was that lots has been "agreed" that we know about through a non-binding press release. so who knows where we are now.

i'm waiting for contracts to be signed, but i'm certainly not holding my breath, especially with the WRU v RRW playing out in the background.

TJ wrote:Yo9u see this is why I am laughing at this thread.  watching folk deny reality so they can cling to their dreams.  the reality is very simple.

the FFR cannot withdraw from next years comp.

TJ, my dream would be that the ERC HEC goes ahead as planned.

TJ wrote:

quinsforever wrote:without a new participation agreement there is no ERC beyond june 2014.

that is the only "fact".

a press release does not count as a contract.

However an agreement between 5 unions and the FFR iswas a fact.  an inconvenient one for you quins as it means the RCC is dead and the PRL are isolated but thats it.  No more negotiation for next year.  Merely details to settle and until we are certain the PRL will not join in the details are hard to settle but it will be based on the structure agreed

no charge for the correction.

if it wasn't a contract then it isnt binding.

as i've said before, i'm happy to watch the celtic regions settle into bed alongside the french, and the english clubs sit out europe for a year. in fact that is my preferred outcome. and i would like FIRA-AER to run things. breaking open the cozy 6N cartel can only be healthy for european rugby.

No but none is going to renege on it. the unions are solid and have been from the start. the FFR will not pull out as it would endanger their funding. Its what is going to happen.

Yo have to learn to ignore the attempts by some to muddy the waters - the PRL talking about what they want for next year for example. simple nonsense. No one is listening to the PRL anymore.

Given up- on the RCC now quins? Given up on the clubs controlling european rugby? - thats a change. last time I looked at this thread you were adamant the clubs had to run the european cup and that the RCC was going to happen. My you have moved a long long way in your position

you may yet be right TJ. but i dont think anything's settled yet.

when everyone was rejoicing at the 5N ex-RFU statement, i did caution that Camou and Lapasset's agenda might yet backfire for the celtic nations. i hope that is not the case, yet fear otherwise.

TJ wrote:Given up- on the RCC now quins?  Given up on the clubs controlling european rugby? - thats a change.  last time I looked at this thread you were adamant the clubs had to run the european cup and that the RCC was going to happen.  My you have moved a long long way in your position

i have always said the ERC is dead, never that the RCC was definitely going to happen. Camou is getting ready to read the last rites to ERC. i still think the clubs should run the commercial aspects of club competitions.

RCC may yet happen, certainly it would be without the french clubs though. but ironically, the finances could yet be very attractive to the celtic nations even (especially) without France given the Bt contract (maybe). so it may happen. but yes i have given up on it being meaningful because the french clubs aren't in it. therefore i think prl clubs (and potentially some french ones) should sit out the comp for a year and give everyone time to cool their heels, and see who brings what commercially to the table.

If the PRL do sit out a year as looks very likely that will only weaken their case for reentry.

Why keep going on about the ERC - no one is wedded to it. Only to union governance which all the 5 unions agree on and are absolutely solid on. How the union governence is structuired is not fixed in stone.

How can the agreement backfire when its only for one year and its an AGREEMENT agreed by all there.

TJ wrote:If the PRL do sit out a year as looks very likely that will only weaken their case for reentry.

Why keep going on about the ERC - no one is wedded to it. Only to union governance which all the 5 unions agree on and are absolutely solid on.  How the union governence is structuired is not fixed in stone.

How can the agreement backfire when its only for one year and its an AGREEMENT agreed by all there.

cause its not a contract.

if you and i agree that we should meet in northumberland for a pint, and we put out a press statement to that effect, if we instead decide to meet somewhere else, or not meet at all, neither of us could sue the other, as there was no contract.

Welcome back TJ and Quinsforever. Good break over the holidays? Really missed this back and forth, sabre rattling, feints, and all that.

Tj and i are having a perfectly sensible, calm discussion.

if you can't see that from your lofty self-appointed perch then maybe just dont bother reading our posts?

What's lofty about my position? But yes it is self appointed as I can sit where I like (well as long as the wife agrees)

quinsforever wrote:Tj and i are having a perfectly sensible, calm discussion.

Tee hee    You two?!   

i think you will find that TJ and i are quite civil to each other.

we were forced into an unholy alliance by a holy-moronic poster, and have never looked back   

This is a summary of events as of 23 December, 2013 by David Walsh, despite working for the Times, has tons of integrity.

Note the bolded part part down there.

Europe at war
The deadline day is fast approaching but it looks like the future of rugby's European Cup is far from guaranteed


AFTER a meeting of top European rugby union officials in Dublin on Friday, the succinct public message was that it had been a positive get-together and further mediation would continue in January. In private, the word was different. At the end of a long day, the way forward appeared less clear and less negotiable than it had at the beginning. So Merry Christmas, then.

As these meetings happen and time passes, the chips on the table rise ever higher. At stake is the future of European club rugby and the growth of the game in countries with sharply divergent resources. It wouldn’t take a lot to kill off elite professional rugby in the Welsh regions, nor much to destroy the fragile structure that maintains elite professional rugby in Scotland and Italy. Soon, decisions must be made that will have serious implications for every elite club, region and province in Europe.

In the beginning there was dissatisfaction among England’s Premiership clubs with the competitive structure and the distribution of television revenues from the Heineken Cup, organised by the Dublin-based European Rugby Cup (ERC). English clubs felt it was unfair that Celtic participants in the Heineken Cup were guaranteed entry while they had to fight for it.

Their frustration with their television money stemmed from a system that split the money equally between participating unions, meaning the more numerous English clubs got proportionately less than their Celtic rivals. Partly because the Heineken Cup was a compelling tournament, English grievances weren’t taken as seriously as they should have been.

Then, at the eleventh hour, the other countries agreed to most of Premiership Rugby’s demands. They were then surprised to find that it wasn’t enough. England’s clubs had taken the decision to leave the Heineken Cup at the end of this season. It wasn’t a decision taken lightly but with the creation of a major new television player, BT Sport, England’s clubs felt empowered. They signed a lucrative deal with BT Sport for the Aviva Premiership and set their sights on a BT broadcasting deal for a new European competition. Many believe that Premiership Rugby had committed to a new television deal with BT Sport for a European competition and hence their hands were tied.

With undue haste, they called the new competition Rugby Champions Cup (RCC) and were encouraged by French club owners who saw greater financial rewards coming their way and said “count us in”. Confident that they had the French on board, Premiership club representatives suggested the Celts and Italians really had no choice but to abandon the Heineken Cup and join the rush to the RCC. The Celts weren’t pleased.

Backed into a corner by the English clubs, they looked to the French union for support and when FFR president Pierre Camou said his country’s clubs would not be allowed to play in the proposed RCC, the pendulum swung away from Premiership clubs. Soon after that, a meeting attended by union representatives from France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales formulated a plan to play next season’s European Cup without English clubs.

That such a meeting could have taken place without a representative of the Rugby Football Union being invited sent out a message that seemed to say that the other five countries were united against Twickenham — a difficult situation for the country hosting the 2015 World Cup.

But the Welsh regions feel their existence is endangered by lack of support from their own union and are adamant that they will not sign the participation agreement that commits them to playing in the RaboDirect Pro 12 as well as the re-cast European Cup, organised by ERC.

The deadline for signing is December 31 and after that date the uncivil war raging in Wales between regions and union will escalate. Struggling for fan support and new revenue streams, the Welsh regions know that they would have a much better chance in an Anglo-Welsh league than a revamped European Cup without the English. Meanwhile, the flight of Wales’ best players to the French and English leagues continues unchecked.

In relation to any Anglo-Welsh league, the difficulty for the Welsh regions is that they need their union’s approval to play in a cross-border competition. They’re not going to get that and though they speak about taking what they see as a “restraint of trade” before a magistrate, that is not a route they can easily travel.

Ian Ritchie, chief executive of the Rugby Football Union, has found himself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Twickenham has spent a lot of time and taken great care in forging a good working relationship with the clubs who nurture and support England’s best players. But less than two years out from the World Cup, the English union cannot afford to be at war with its neighbours.

Neither is the prospect of his players not playing European rugby next season pleasing Stuart Lancaster, the England head coach. For all the structural and commercial weaknesses of the Heineken Cup, it has been an excellent bridge between domestic and Test level rugby.

And so Ritchie turned up in Dublin on Friday, hoping to move things forward. His difficulty was Premiership Rugby’s insistence that, come hell or high water, they would not play in a competition that was being run by the ERC, while the other five participating countries have committed to ERC for one more year. As long as the Welsh union was set against an Anglo-Welsh tournament, that route was also barred.

It was thought that Ritchie might seek to exploit Celtic fears of the French desire to create Uefa-type governance in European rugby, in line with what Bernard Lapasset, president of the International Rugby Board, sees as the need for “greater democratisation.” As things stand, the home countries are in the privileged position of having two representatives on the international board because they were part of the group that became the game’s original founders.

But Friday delivered far less than those present had hoped. Mediator Graeme Mew wasn’t as effective as he might have been and some were surprised that two ERC executives were in attendance. As Premiership Rugby considers ERC part of the problem, how sensible was it to have two of their people at such a sensitive meeting?

It is the English clubs and the Welsh regions who now stand to lose most. They must decide whether or not to join the revamped European Cup or not. English clubs seem ready to sit it out for a season, but at what price to the national team?

The new year beckons and rugby fans will hope that it brings new ideas and fresh thinking to what seems an intractable situation.

Many believe that Premiership Rugby had committed to a new television deal with BT Sport for a European competition and hence their hands were tied.

Perhaps this is because that was specifically stated as part of the BT deal press release.

i prefer to bold the initial, summary paragraph:

"AFTER a meeting of top European rugby union officials in Dublin on Friday, the succinct public message was that it had been a positive get-together and further mediation would continue in January. In private, the word was different. At the end of a long day, the way forward appeared less clear and less negotiable than it had at the beginning. So Merry Christmas, then."

Yep, it didn't go well for the Richie/England because ERC reps were at the meeting and the 5 Unions are committed to the ERC for a year and then they will think about it.

The PRL cannot participate in any competition organised by the ERC, so England loses out.

enjoy your ride with Camou, if that is the case. but i fear he's not a reach-around kind of guy so it may prove ultimately to be somewhat unsatisfying...

Quins - once again you cast slurs on others simply because to accept the truth would mean you have to abandon your untenable position.

Camou has shown more integrity, reasonableness and honesty than the PRL. He has helped broker a deal that is in the interests of european rugby. all the PRL have done is leave a trail of destruction and confusion behind them.

The english are the biggest losers here if they continue to boycott the European cup because they dont get their own way. Cutting off your nose to spite your face its known as and the PRL look ridiculous and stupid. They had theuir chance after the Ritchie / Mew meeting where the rest gave them 9-0% of what they wanted. they will never get such a good offer again.

english rugby will live to regret this and the arrogance they have shown and the dictatorial attitudes shown will have lost them goodwill allround. They are isolated and reviled.

quinsforever wrote:enjoy your ride with Camou, if that is the case. but i fear he's not a reach-around kind of guy so it may prove ultimately to be somewhat unsatisfying...

To be honest, he is the one that is standing up for the smaller nations, so why should we worry about him. Its a fight between the RFU v FFR as the big boys in the school yard and as Philip Browne said, small nations like Ireland are just like corks on the tide.

As a small nation, we are well used to having to hang in there using our wits against the big boys.

What else would you expect The Times to print?

And a slightly different view
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10552343/Fan-power-Not-in-European-club-rugbys-murky-waters.html

good point bb.

sin e, camou is not looking after the smaller nations. for as long as your interests appear aligned than it may appear he cares. i wouldnt mistake that for actual concern though. the move to FIRA-AER is explicitly an attempt to reduce the power of the celtic nations in NH rugby. this will become clear to all over the next few months.

off to bed now.

quinsforever wrote:off to bed now.

School tomorrow I hope?

Just kidding  

I wouldn't say Camou is standing up for the little guy. He's just as hungry for power as any of the other villains of the piece, if he gets his way the French will be the most powerful union in Europe and he (or his successor) will have the most power of any rugby administrator in Europe.

I don't mind if future competitions are run by FIRA-AER, I think the Irish more than hold our own in any structure where we get our fair share of the revenue, but let's be realistic about the French motive for wanting this.

Steffan wrote:

quinsforever wrote:off to bed now.

School tomorrow I hope?

Just kidding  

jetlagged from arriving back from japan yesterday evening. have been up since 1.30am this morning.

havent been to school since the 80s my friend.

broadlandboy wrote:What else would you expect The Times to print?

The Times are printing different opinions - for instance Stephen Jones is very much in the corner of the PRL. Jones is a clown though. whereas David Walsh is a great sports writing known for his pursuit of the truth (he was instrumental in exposing Lance Armstrong as a drugs cheat).

Is that David Walsh the Irish journalist? He is good.

Notch wrote:I wouldn't say Camou is standing up for the little guy. He's just as hungry for power as any of the other villains of the piece, if he gets his way the French will be the most powerful union in Europe and he (or his successor) will have the most power of any rugby administrator in Europe.

I don't mind if future competitions are run by FIRA-AER, I think the Irish more than hold our own in any structure where we get our fair share of the revenue, but let's be realistic about the French motive for wanting this.

As I've said previously, I think I'd prefer to throw my lot in with FIRA than with those snakeskin oil salesmen of the PRL.

FIRA are the body in charge of the Six Nations already, so I don't know why we should fear them - after all we are a small nation as well and should make life easier for small countries like Italy and Scotland and ourselves who the PRL have tried to bully. Only for the French saving the competition, we'd have nothing.

HammerofThunor wrote:Is that David Walsh the Irish journalist? He is good.

Yes. Now chief sports writer with the Sunday Times. 4 x Irish sports writer of the year and 3 UK Sportswriter of the Year.

snakeskin oil salesmen

What a wonder version of that phrase (is it a phrase?). Very apt   

FIRA-AER are in charge of the 6 nations? Are they buggery. Or are you talking about the ECN known as 6 Nations B. IF you're right the talk about the RFU suggesting 6 Nations committee control and FFR suggestion FIRA-AER control don't make any sense.

Do you have ANYTHING to back that up as it would be really interesting development to my limited knowledge. The FIRA-AER don't seem to appear anywhere on the official 6 Nations website.

They list the 2014 Six Nations as one of their competitions (see under Competitions
http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales are all llsted as member organisations here (6 of 44 Member Unions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRA_%E2%80%93_Association_of_European_Rugbyd

International competitions
The highest level of rugby competition played among European countries is the Six Nations Championship, contested every year in February and March, by England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, and Italy -- all countries routinely ranked in the Top 15 in the world. The tournament began in 1883, and is the oldest international rugby tournament. The tournament has been known as the Six Nations Championship since 2000, when Italy joined; it had previously been known as the Five Nations. There is no promotion or relegation, and since 2000, no country has entered or left the Six Nations.

The next highest level of international rugby played by European countries is the European Nations Cup Division 1A, which is contested by six countries -- Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, and Belgium -- all of which are ranked in the Top 25 in the world. Of these six countries, all but Belgium have been in Division 1A since 2007, and all but Belgium have played in a Rugby World Cup. There is promotion and relegation between the ENC Division 1A and lower divisions. In total, the ENC has seven divisions, all of which have promotion and relegation.

Doesn't say they're in charge of the competition. Nor does the Wikipedia entry. They have the current table that's it.

Maybe you're right but it make all that talk about the FIRA-AER taking overt he 6 Nations a Bit pointless wouldn't it?

Unions meeting in Dublin as they reaffirm loyalty to ERC
Tuesday, January 07, 2014

The Irish Rugby Football Union will sit down with its counterparts from France, Italy, Scotland and Wales today to reaffirm its commitment to an ERC-organised pan-European club competition for next season.


By Simon Lewis
Irish Examiner Reporter

Amid speculation about proposals for cross-border formats involving Anglo-Welsh alliances and a British and Irish Cup, as well as the English Premiership’s Rugby Champions Cup, the five unions will meet in Dublin today with the intent of showing the rugby world they have the only genuine show in town for 2014-2015, by which time the current European Rugby Cup accord will have dissolved.

The feeling within the five unions is they are the only ones with a concrete, five-nation, 20-club European tournament agreed and in place for the autumn.

Mediated negotiations, involving those five unions as well as fellow stakeholders from England’s RFU, are still set to resume this month following a meeting held on December 21, although Premiership Rugby, the group representing English clubs, refuses to negotiate in any form with ERC.

There is also still major uncertainty surrounding the participation in any ERC-run competition of the four current Welsh regions, which are at odds with the Welsh Rugby Union.

The WRU countered with the threat of cutting off all financial backing for the regions, creating central contracts for its Test players and introducing new teams to play in the new ERC competition. However last week WRU offered something of a more conciliatory olive branch by seeking to renew negotiations with the quartet, Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets.

The regions, meanwhile, have expressed their wish to play in the Rugby Champions Cup (RCC) proposed by Premiership Rugby and more recently have been linked with a 16-team Anglo-Welsh league competition. “An RCC would provide Wales with an extra £12m [€14.5m] over three years and increase funding to Ireland and Scotland, ” the regions said in a statement. “It would not threaten the Six Nations or bring about its demise.”
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/unions-meeting-in-dublin-as-they-reaffirm-loyalty-to-erc-254507.html

Good. Hopefully it'll be signed and sorted this time. Then we're done (for now)

agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

Sin é wrote:Unions meeting in Dublin as they reaffirm loyalty to ERC
Tuesday, January 07, 2014

The Irish Rugby Football Union will sit down with its counterparts from France, Italy, Scotland and Wales today to reaffirm its commitment to an ERC-organised pan-European club competition for next season.

By Simon Lewis
Irish Examiner Reporter

Amid speculation about proposals for cross-border formats involving Anglo-Welsh alliances and a British and Irish Cup, as well as the English Premiership’s Rugby Champions Cup, the five unions will meet in Dublin today with the intent of showing the rugby world they have the only genuine show in town for 2014-2015, by which time the current European Rugby Cup accord will have dissolved.

Is this really what this has devolved down to? Really? This is childish.
No wonder there is no agreement. We have a big boy sport and a big boy business and little boys at the helm.

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

But not really what we, the fans, actually want? It's a massive shame

doctor_grey wrote:

Sin é wrote:Unions meeting in Dublin as they reaffirm loyalty to ERC
Tuesday, January 07, 2014

The Irish Rugby Football Union will sit down with its counterparts from France, Italy, Scotland and Wales today to reaffirm its commitment to an ERC-organised pan-European club competition for next season.

By Simon Lewis
Irish Examiner Reporter

Amid speculation about proposals for cross-border formats involving Anglo-Welsh alliances and a British and Irish Cup, as well as the English Premiership’s Rugby Champions Cup, the five unions will meet in Dublin today with the intent of showing the rugby world they have the only genuine show in town for 2014-2015, by which time the current European Rugby Cup accord will have dissolved.

Is this really what this has devolved down to?  Really?  This is childish.  
No wonder there is no agreement.  We have a big boy sport and a big boy business and little boys at the helm.

Yes, its rather sad that the 5 Unions have to do this to counter the lies and distortions fed to and regurgitated by the English press.

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

I'm sure the other 5 nations won't throw England out of the 6 Nations a year before the world cup.

doctor_grey wrote:

Sin é wrote:Unions meeting in Dublin as they reaffirm loyalty to ERC
Tuesday, January 07, 2014

The Irish Rugby Football Union will sit down with its counterparts from France, Italy, Scotland and Wales today to reaffirm its commitment to an ERC-organised pan-European club competition for next season.

By Simon Lewis
Irish Examiner Reporter

Amid speculation about proposals for cross-border formats involving Anglo-Welsh alliances and a British and Irish Cup, as well as the English Premiership’s Rugby Champions Cup, the five unions will meet in Dublin today with the intent of showing the rugby world they have the only genuine show in town for 2014-2015, by which time the current European Rugby Cup accord will have dissolved.

Is this really what this has devolved down to?  Really?  This is childish.  
No wonder there is no agreement.  We have a big boy sport and a big boy business and little boys at the helm.

I would think 'the only show in town' is the wording of the journalist. If this is a response to the story that Camou walked out on the last meeting, and that FFR have withdrawn support of the 5 Union agreement, then it's right that the Unions reaffirm their commitment to ERC HEC.
If the 'Camou storms out' story was just more nonsense put out there by PRL/Paul Rees, then really the juvenile tactics are those of the same.
If Simon Lewis has it right then at least we can move on from any talk of an RCC/B&I. No RCC, and no AW for next season.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agreed. 5N without english clubs for a season will be a good reality check for all.

I'm sure the other 5 nations won't throw England out of the 6 Nations a year before the world cup.

Certainly not as that would be a breach of contract and the RFU would be able to sue them (as would the BBC).