Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem

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EDIT March 18th post-Scotland's capitulation to Wales

So, it's the end of the six nations. I have to say the intention of this early prediction thread was to calm all suppositions that Scotland might be anywhere near a threat this year. I have maintained that things look better with Cotter coming in (and hopefully not having to resort to 5th/6th choice wings, though that couldn't have been predicted).

Someone pointed out that in this last game if Wales had received the red card the scoreline would not have been the same in reverse. In fact I would be very worried that we still would have lost. To me it feels like it was an excuse to put the heads down/give Johnson the farewell he deserves.

Personally, I am lost for words. Not really sure where to go from here.

Anyone?

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EDIT March 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to France.

Come hither one and all and we shall drink our sorrows away...

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EDIT February 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to England & Ireland

I was right all along.

***

I got this in early because I did not want to see anybody from any nation suggest for any minute that Scotland has a chance of doing anything other than :

a) Cleaning their dirties in a smeg [White Wash]
b) Making lots of soup this winter [wooden spoon]
c) Scraping a win against Italy , in the dying seconds after a urine poor performance , which still might result in "b)" anyway.

No they did not beat Ireland.  
No they did not beat England.
No they did not beat France.  
No they did not beat Wales.  

They might *look* like they are going to win to any outsiders no privy to the Scotland set up, but I guarantee you no sensible Scottish fan will be expecting anything but a, b & c this season.

Why?

• We have an interim coach (for over a year!!!)who is more worried about what he says on camera than apparently coaching a sensible game plan
  
• Our breakdown is awful
  
• We have the psychological hardness of my nan - you don't know my nan but that's not good
  
• Our best players are either never played in position, not allowed to play in the XXIII at all, or are just awful at the moment. Not making the injury excuse because frankly it doesn't apply with exception of 2 key players that might be back in time. Happens in every squad
  
• etc, etc (feel free to add to this list)
  

So look, when we are compiling our 6N predictions this year, can we just for once all agree on something?

1. AN Other
2. AN Other
3. AN Other
4. AN Other
5. Maybe Scotland
6. Probably Scotland

Anyone mentions "dark horses" and "Scotland" in the same sentence without a negation clause in there somewhere (and you KNOW what I mean) I am getting our the knuckle dusters    

I just can't see there being that same intensity to blow us off the park. I reckon they'll still win, but not by much. This is one that SJ surely needs to target. Just a pity we lost the France game. If we just had that little but more we could be entering the game having beaten Italy away and France compared to a Wales hurting from defeats to Ireland and Wales.

Is the time right, given Beattie's injury, to call in Rennie for a bench spot and introduce him at HT for Wilson? We could have Swinson on the bench too if everything went a bit haywire to replace Brown & give bulk?

Halfpenny ruled out for the season.

Halfpenny keeps doing most everything that is required of him in the Welsh shirt...except take on wing duties too and score the tries as well as all the points and the defending!

The coach let Wales down today.  England were very good.  But the coach let his players down by retaining a 9 and 10 that were going nowhere in thought or deed...but other players too let Wales down.  Drooped shoulders, nothing like the passion needed, sloppiness against such a dangerous side (Care try).

But Halfpenny kept them ticking with his laser guided kicks and the honesty of his efforts.

And so the predictions made all those months ago by Ineffable sadly came to fruition.
Worst 6 Nations since 2012?

If Weir hadn't scored that drop goal I think this would have been the worst 6N ever.

So, that was the last match with Johnson in charge, yes?
Need to put this 6N behind you and look forward to Vern. June can't come quick enough!
Best of luck on the summer tour.

Er, right. I genuinely didn't watch the game because of family commitments.

Would anyone in this family care to take a deep breath, have another shot of old single malt Disappointment and try to describe as objectively as possible how the game was. If it was a slaughter worthy of an Eli Roth film and there are literally no positives whatsoever, then feel free to say.

Very grateful. Let's all pretend that this was all just a bad dream, Toto.

Hogg red card in 22nd minute. Game over. There you go, short summary.

Wales played very well and some of their handling and support lines were very good, but then we didn't exactly make it difficult for them. We played better in the last 20, and managed to stop the riot for a bit, but ultimately Hoggy didn't give us a chance

So, it's the end of the six nations. I have to say the intention of this early prediction thread was to calm all suppositions that Scotland might be anywhere near a threat this year. I have maintained that things look better with Cotter coming in (and hopefully not having to resort to 5th/6th choice wings, though that couldn't have been predicted).

Someone pointed out that in this last game if Wales had received the red card the scoreline would not have been the same in reverse. In fact I would be very worried that we still would have lost. To me it feels like it was an excuse to put the heads down/give Johnson the farewell he deserves.

Personally, I am lost for words. Not really sure where to go from here.

Anyone?

Yeah that was me.

I'm hopeful that we would have won, but we certainly wouldn't have scored 50.

Grim.

I think this Six Nations is something that has to be written off, we had a poor, slightly insane and most importantly outgoing coach. I do not think it is by any means a fair representation of where we are as a rugby nation but it is indicative of where we could be if we don't play to our potential. If it serves as a catalyst for what needs to be done it will be worth it, if it does not then I don't know what will.

Postmortem of the 6 nations:

We've been terrible from start to finish. Really struggling to think of any genuine positives. I mean yeah we beat Italy, but a last min drop goal is hardly convincing. We played with slight competence against France for about 10 mins but still lost to one of the worst France performances I've seen in years.

So all in all it's been a tournament to forget for us and for some reason this one has hurt more than the last few.

I am so glad I recorded that and then could fast forward it.

However wales made it enjoyable to watch good skills

You won a game this year, so technically it hasn't been your worst... Denton playing like that is leadership material in my opinion. I quite felt sorry for him as he was giving 100% when the rest of his team were giving 10% (after the RC).

GLove39 wrote:

Stuart Hogg wrote:
“I would like to apologise to my team-mates, the Scotland management and all Scotland supporters for what happened today. I have let people down.

“I have said sorry in person to Dan Biggar and I have apologised to the referee, Jerome Garces.

“I always try to play hard and fair and what happened today was out of character for me.

“Once again, I’m very sorry.”

Fair enough, and good on him for fronting up. HOWEVER, it does not excuse the red card today. It looked like he was a wee kid trying to prove to the bigger lads how hard he was and he ended up looking like a prize Muppet.   He is usually one of my favourite players and a genuine attacking talent but you can see he gets easily frustrated and he really needs to wind that in.

I still think the red card clouded over some major failings today - your full back getting sent off shouldn't mean your pack puts in such a feeble performance.

Plus, leading up to the red card Wales were getting over the gainline far too easily and we were throwing some really stupid offloads.

Even Owen Farrell, who has a temper, can control it enough to not get a red.

Interesting interviews on the SRU Youtube channel. Greig Laidlaw basically saying how SJ will be missed and is well liked by the players. Not really vice-captain talk in the interview. Then Denton in a separate video talking about how the squad needs to support Hogg, good positive Scottish support and how we've taken a step back but, looking ahead, need to move forward. With Vern Cotter I think Denton should be made captain. He always gives 100% and although he has some imperfections in his game, he's a good leader it seems. And he'd make the XV with Beattie at 6.

Also, the interview was by Peter Wright I think. Interestingly he's been with Scotland doing the interviews. Wonder if he knows that Denton - out of everyone else - is the best leader?

RDW_Scotland wrote:I still think the red card clouded over some major failings today - your full back getting sent off shouldn't mean your pack puts in such a feeble performance.

Plus, leading up to the red card Wales were getting over the gainline far too easily and we were throwing some really stupid offloads.

Well put. Bet Vern Cotter is wishing he'd turned down the offer...

Denton is photogenic and gives good interviews, so they probably pick him more often for that reason, over say someone like Ryan Grant.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Denton is photogenic and gives good interviews, so they probably pick him more often for that reason, over say someone like Ryan Grant.

Yeah it's very possible. But, at least in this 6 nations, he has worked his balls off in every game and really led from the front. I wish he would offload the ball(!), but he has to my mind been much better leadership material than laidlaw.

If Laidlaw continues to kick like he has this tournament then he'll be finished as an international rugby player, let alone fulfil a leadership position.

Furious about today. Total waste of time for the fans. Even down to 14 men we played poor rugby, showed little nous and made silly unforced errors. Weir looks less and less like the answer at 10 with each passing game.

blindsided wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Denton is photogenic and gives good interviews, so they probably pick him more often for that reason, over say someone like Ryan Grant.

Yeah it's very possible. But, at least in this 6 nations, he has worked his balls off in every game and really led from the front. I wish he would offload the ball(!), but he has to my mind been much better leadership material than laidlaw.

He actually offloaded. Couple of times today

In terms of moving forward, I really think we've just got to move on from this 6N as soon as possible and look to the future.

We have a new coach, a decent summer tour, and a chance to make a new start.

The summer tour will serve for Cotter to put his tactics and style in place, the AIs will help test that against top nations, and then we should be going into the next 6N slightly more settled.  Not ideal preparation for a world cup, but it's what we've got.

Summer tour:

USA
Canada
Argentina
SA (outside the international window so only Glasgow and Edinburgh players allowed to play   )

Really not sure what we're going to do against SA with only Glasgow and Edinburgh players to choose from, especially at 9 where Cusiter and Laidlaw will be unavailable.  Hart? Sam H-C? Pyrgos? Not ideal.

Cotter needs to get a good idea of his starting XV quickly.  Some key decisions:

Hooker
Tighthead
Backrow
Half backs

The other positions are fairly settled with clear starters.

Rumours are that Cotter sees Hogg as his first choice 10.  I hope this is unsubstantiated as, red cards aside, he still has the potential to be a world class 15. As for who we do pick at 10, I just think we've got to persevere with Weir. He's all we've got for now really.

So the players need to go back to their clubs, put all this behind them quickly, work hard to improve and regroup for the summer tour.

Really is very grim being a Scotland fan.

Glad that's over, been some tough viewing.

Onwards and upwards.

Can't wait for Cotter to get started, our pack simply haven't been organised or consistent enough.  That's got to be the priority for Cotter, we're a long way behind the English and Irish in this respect.

Personally I'd like to see MacArthur, Welsh, Gray and Harley all come into the pack, more mobility.  Obviously one of our two top open-sides and hopefully Beattie isn't out for too long.

Backs will come together, encouraging that Seymour and Fife both proved themselves as solid understudies but will be good to have Visser and Maitland back.  Hopefully we'll get to see a bit of Horne and Bennett during the summer. Stick with Weir at 10, look what Clermont have managed to achieve with a limited 10 in Brock James.

Don't despair friends, we're not as bad a Guscott says.

Mentioned this before but the SRU or Cotter should do everything in its/his power to get Steve Diamond on board either a forwards coach or in the set up somewhere.

The work he's done with the Sale pack is exactly what's needed for the Scottish forwards. Playing to their mobile, smaller strengths and not trying to play like Ireland, Wales or England would probably be far more effective for them.

I agree with that yappy. Scotland have looked most dangerous in the past few years in flashes, when their forwards secured a quick turnover ball and it's been shipped to the backs (plus wing forwards & Gray) for a quick score when the defence isn't set.

In the past few years Scotland have looked their most toothless when on phase 10-20 - very little happens, very little go forwards, not enough strength in the pack to worry the defence and it results in an inevitable turnover (lately) or a penalty (a few years back).

There have been great games we have won from brilliant defence and sneaking kicks but I wouldn't say that's Scotland looking dangerous - every team with a well set defence will have a small chance of doing that (and thus a big chance of doing that to any one team in any one year).

Basically all we're asking is a good head coach, a good forwards coach and a good backs coach at the same time ...

I would take AR back as forwards coach in a flash. Johnson could even be not a bad backs coach if we gave him a chance. Leave all selection decisions to Cotter, though...

Will Hogg even be available for the SA game? Callum Clark got a huge ban for breaking that guy's elbow and Hogg's hit was deliberate???

Selection for SA will be interesting. We could have though:

Grant, Ford, Welsh, J Gray, Gilchrist, Harley/Eddie, Rennie, Denton, Cusiter/Hart, Weir, Visser, Scott, Dunbar, !Lamont (Maitland), Maitland (!Hogg) which is decent enough.

* Cusiter to sale

Hogg's hit was reckless but on the lower end of the severity scale. A clumsy mid air challenge is no where near as bad as trying to deliberately break someon's arm....not that Jiffy would agree!

Cusiter is unavailable for the SA game as he's moving to Sale and will officially be a sale player then.

I developed a real respect for the Scottish players during that game from hell they had yesterday.

They really don't deserve all the schit that's going on around them from comic coach to bad luck on a red in a closed-roof Millennium of all places.  
Hogg deserved everything he got! - not saying he didn't deserve his bad luck - he did.  But his team-mates, they didn't deserve him having a needless melt-down moment. I was thinking how sick the Scottish players would have been going into that dressing room at half time...but then I wondered what Hogg must have been contemplating having to meet them.

They fought on and against all the odds kinda brought the Welsh flood under some kind of control.  Yes it was a rout, but they can hold their heads up very high, they did as well as any side that was without their 15 for most of the game and that had to play against a Welsh side with lots to prove, playing at home in the Milliennium.

I think that this notion of the Scottish pack being 'small' is one of these strange, self-perpetuating pieces of 'received wisdom' from a few years ago. They are directly comparable in size to other nations and the set piece has always been competitive (note the scrum against the French, for example) - the difference is that as a collective, they have looked underpowered in the loose. I really think that a great deal will be remedied by choosing a settled front row and a balanced back row.

I absolutely agree with the comment above that the first forwards coach I would have back is Andy Robinson, provided he let Vern get on with it and wasn't allowed within the length of a disinfected bargepole of team selection.

I think Cotter needs to come in and clear out the existing coaching staff. Or, as a minimum, Jonathan Humphries.

Need a fresh start in all regards, but can't see the SRU being willing to pay off their contracts.

Just the fact that Andy Robinson would play Rennie, or probably Barclay, would be enough for me for him to be jettisoned back in.

With Cotter coming in, he'll get the selection right though and I'd doubt discriminate against players.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Cotter needs to come in and clear out the existing coaching staff. Or, as a minimum, Jonathan Humphries.

Need a fresh start in all regards, but can't see the SRU being willing to pay off their contracts.

That's a really scary thought, RDW. I had actually assumed that the SRU had grown common sense overnight and promised Cotter he could bring in whomever he liked. Completely moronic that anyone could stay in a senior coaching position after the omnishambles we were forced to witness over the past months.

Look at how much more effective Edinburgh are defensively and at the breakdown. That's not Solomons alone - it's down to Omar Mouneimne who came with him from the Kings. Crazy if the SRU insists on keeping the existing staff. Oh no. Oh no. That just can't be possible, can it? I was assuming he'd bring Franck Azema at the very least to give our attack some teeth. Now I'm worried. But then, I'm very worried generally at the moment.

If we weren't depressed enough, from Scotland, Scotland A, Scotland under 20s, Scotland club and Scotland women we only won one game - a last minute drop goal against the worst team in the tournament...

.      

Did we learn anything yesterday that could be useful? One or two things possibly.

1. Euan Murray is still our best TH and should play up to the next world cup. Our scrum went so much better when the front row changed and I would say that Dickinson played as well if not better than Grant as well. We certainly should have in theory at least a competitive front row.

2. Cusiter is our best SH. We all probably already knew that but it should not even be up for discussion now. In the summer we will see someone else come through as well, probably Hart. Laidlaw's form is completely shot and he will need to re-invent himself at Gloucester, which he may well do, to even get back into the squad next year.

3. Swinson and Wilson have not proved to be international players so far. I have defended Wilson and pretty much everyone thought highly of Swinson but both have disappointed. Time to bring on Gray jr and others, Gilchrest and Atkins spring to mind and let them show what they can do.

4. Denton is probably the only back row player to come out of the tournament with any credit. Beattie may have joined him if he had played more often but no one else, including Kelly Brown, has really put up their hands for on going selection. The back row really is an open book for anyone to put their name down into if they play well. Hopefully this will drive Rennie, Barclay, Harley, Fusaro, Strokosch, Low and on the horizon Strauss as they attempt to put down a marker for world cup selection.

4. Our backs can play with the ball when they have it and showed that they can score some good tries without our best two strike runners. Scott and Dunbar look comfortable in international rugby both in attack and defence and have been one of the few partnerships which has developed well over the tournament. Add Bennett and potentially Vernon into that mix and we could have a backline that we would not have dreamed about a few years ago. There is still some hope there.

5. FH remains a huge problem for us and we are no closer to being sure who our playmaker should be. Every time Duncan weir did something good on Saturday, and there were plenty of good things, he then spoilt it by a rash mistake. You just don't get that kind of luxury at international level and he needs to shape up pretty quickly or be moved on for the next guy. Who that would be is the question, I hope not Hogg, apart from anything else you do have to question his temperament after yesterday. Russell or Haethcote give more potential I think, but I am not sure the former is ready and the later is not playing. Edinburgh need to sign him!

5. The coaching situation is still not clear. Will JH have a future under Cotter, he does not appeared to have covered himself in glory this tournament. Where will SJ fit in as well, will he still be in a tracksuit coaching the backs. Cotter really should be allowed to bring in his own men. As it is going to be his head and reputation on the block you would think that he would insist on that.

6. In some teams the sum is better than the total of their parts. For Scotland I do believe that the opposite is still the case. We are not the finished article and we still have huge problems in some positions, FH and hooker in particular. Lawson has done ok, but I don't believe he is the answer to our problems there. I still believe though that this is the best group of Scottish players we have seen in years, many of whom are playing very well in professional rugby for their respective club sides. Someone must be able to mould them into a better rugby team than the ones we have seen in this tournament.

I remain a Scottish rugby fan and will always believe!

Just to make us all feel worse, the SRU tweeted yesterday afternoon the half time score from Scotland 's under 20 woman against Belgium... We were 24-0 down. And they didn't tweet the final score, so cam only assume another bad loss.

I think Vern Cotter needs to bring Henry in and hoover up the mess left by SJ. Some players need to leave as they've had their chances and have wholly not delivered. As the sky rugby podcast said, he's good at picking a squad and going with it so hopefully he'll pick form and future. I'd like to see a 30 man squad like this going into the summer tour:

Grant, Dickinson; Lawson, MacArthur; Cross, Murray, Welsh; R Gray, J Gray, Gilchrist; Eddie, Harley; Beattie, Denton; Rennie, Barclay; Hart, Cusiter; Weir, Heathcote; Dunbar, Scott, Bennett, Horne; Visser, Maitland, Lamont, Vernon; Hogg, Tonks

And just keep the squad. Might be interesting to see Low and Cowan too.

Recent results:
Wales U20 43-15 Scotland U20
Italy Women 45 - 5 Scotland Women
Ireland Club International 28-3 Scotland Club International

I could go on...

First thing is that Scotland need to somehow get a third club side going. I know that isn't a simple task that you only have to mention the idea and it happens, but it should be the most serious idea examined into the short term future. Scotland needs more than two sides.

Definitely. Unless we develop a 3rd pro team we're not going to get better than our current position. It'll allow for our fringe players, like Vernon, Murchie... to get more gametime and really showcase their talent and push for selection.

Would a 'Borders' team be our 3rd team or a team up North like Aberdeen? I'd go with a Borders outfit.

To get a 3rd team we would have to significantly reduce the investment in Edinburgh, Glasgow and the Scotland team. This would mean results will suffer, fans stay away, less money will come into the sru.

The only way a 3rd team is viable is with private investment.

In terms of 'first things to do', a new pro team is well down the list!

RDW_Scotland wrote:To get a 3rd team we would have to significantly reduce the investment in Edinburgh, Glasgow and the Scotland team. This would mean results will suffer, fans stay away, less money will come into the sru.

The only way a 3rd team is viable is with private investment.

In terms of 'first things to do', a new pro team is well down the list!

Unfortunately the status quo isn't working so some radical change is required and all the valid issues you mention will have to be overcome somehow. In the meantime Cotter can improve things a lot by introducing consistency to the Scotland squad (selection, tactics etc etc etc) instead of the shambles this last 6n quickly became.
Unfortunately we can't take our position in the 6N for granted looking to the future, so much of modern sport is money driven first and foremost so you can bet that if the powers that be think that there is a better format without Scotland involved...we could very well see a two tier championship with relegation suggested.
Guscott loves to knock us, but when he says we are nowhere presently then he's unfortunately not too far from the truth.

The only viable third pro team at the moment is London Scottish (as it's already up and running), but there are a number of difficulties with that, not least that the club's formal remit is to develop players for the English RFU. You would need a particular dispensation for the club to be party to the same residence rule as exists for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Not impossible, but other than out of sheer pity, it's not clear why Bill Beaumont would for for that.

There's a crazy alternative suggestion. How about our players get better at rugby so that they get signed by other clubs? I know, I know. It would never fly.

George Carlin wrote:The only viable third pro team at the moment is London Scottish (as it's already up and running), but there are a number of difficulties with that, not least that the club's formal remit is to develop players for the English RFU. You would need a particular dispensation for the club to be party to the same residence rule as exists for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Not impossible, but other than out of sheer pity, it's not clear why Bill Beaumont would for for that.

There's a crazy alternative suggestion. How about our players get better at rugby so that they get signed by other clubs? I know, I know. It would never fly.

What, and select the entire Scotland squad from Doncaster, Cornish Pirates, Rotherham etc? No disrespect to the English Championship but you get my drift.

Can we put the 3rd pro team idea to bed? The SRU can't afford a third team. Even when we had the third pro team, Scotland were still terrible. And for the love if god, the borders won't support a pro team as there us too much inter town rivalry. The borders pro team failed!!!

We need the SRU to invest in grass roots rugby and we need to increase the level of skill, intensity, etc in our club game.

There's only one thing for it then.

We need to send our women to mate with big, athletic Saffers and Kiwis. I mentioned this to Mrs GC once and was disturbed to see how quickly she warmed to the idea.

Hold on. Why can't we men go make with blond saffa girls and exotic kiwi girls?

George Carlin wrote:There's only one thing for it then.

We need to send our women to mate with big, athletic Saffers and Kiwis. I mentioned this to Mrs GC once and was disturbed to see how quickly she warmed to the idea.

  

The Scots don't look too small to me, btw. But yep, it seems all teams now need SH ballast to force their gameplans on sides. Ireland too will need to go chasing after any O'Tuilagis they can find. This ball-carrying jaunt ain't getting any easier year after year.