English view point on the Anglo-Welsh league

by HammerofThunor Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

So some of the other forums are having most of this talk in the English section. Here it's been mainly focused on the Welsh perspective. So all you English club rugby fans out here, what do you think of this idea?

For clarification, there have been a few articles floating around that solid offers are on the table for this league, both from the PRL and sponsors/broadcasters. The main suggestion is a 16 team Wanglo league. One Welsh team can get relegated but only one (seen different suggests for how this would work). Also the Regions have supposedly been offered £4M each (a season? One off? Don't know).

So do you think this a good idea? Bad idea? Ok but needs changing?

Below the options of for supporters of English clubs (so As counts even though he's Scottish). Additional options for English folk that don't support any pro club club and for the non-English view. For comments on the Welsh aspect to this please refer to
https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:01 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I honestly couldn't think of anything worse.

An English/Welsh/Irish league?

Now we're talking!

No Scots ?

IL, I put forward the view way back when this European debacle started that we were probably looking at the demise of pro rugby in Scotland and ultimately an even weaker Scottish international side. I was informed that I was overcooking the egg, but the more that dispute carries on, and now with the added complication of the internal Welsh strife, and having looked at all the various permutations, I honestly can't see one in which Scottish rugby in general does not end up worse off in relative terms. Of course there will be those that rightly point out that Scotland has been getting an 'unfair' share (commercially, or whatever), but I believe that Scotland will have to have a long hard look at the two pro teams, and that within the next 10 years, the 6Ns is reduced back to a 5N tournie (and that's without thinking about how other nations will be affected). It is always very easy to shove on the blinkers and consider only the interests of the game nearest to your heart (we all do it), but the solution to all the current problems MUST be carefully thought thru, else smaller nations will disappear (perhaps the Darwinians, or rather faux-Darwinians, would like that?!)

by HammerofThunor Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:12 pm

Even if domestic pro rugby goes completely in Scotland, why would that mean they dropped out of the 6 Nations? It doesn't cost them to enter and they have plenty of guys overseas like Argentina did (and would have more with no pro-rugby in Scotland).

But at some point you have to ask whether there is sufficient want for pro rugby in Scotland. And if not should it be propped up for historical reasons? Especially if we're keeping a closed shop at the top level of European International rugby to maintain it? Not very nice questions but it has to be asked.

If Scottish rugby is on the climb again then it WOULD be worthwhile continuing. But if it's not...

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:38 pm

Scrumpy wrote:What have Bath got to do with this?

I love the Jeff as it is and I don't want to change it to help out 4 teams which aren't even loved in their own Country.

Sorry mate nothing personal but I don't want the Regions and their mud throwing in the Jeff!

Your chairman/sugar daddy etc has very publically stated that the Welsh Regions will die unless they become involved with the English teams - hense me mentioning Bath

Also mentioned in the Bath Chronicle - seems in favour of a merger

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/TOM-BRADSHAW-Rugby-union-braced-brave-new-world/story-20380068-detail/story.html

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:40 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Even if domestic pro rugby goes completely in Scotland, why would that mean they dropped out of the 6 Nations? It doesn't cost them to enter and they have plenty of guys overseas like Argentina did (and would have more with no pro-rugby in Scotland).

But at some point you have to ask whether there is sufficient want for pro rugby in Scotland. And if not should it be propped up for historical reasons? Especially if we're keeping a closed shop at the top level of European International rugby to maintain it? Not very nice questions but it has to be asked.

If Scottish rugby is on the climb again then it WOULD be worthwhile continuing. But if it's not...

Agreed, Thunor, these are some of the weighty issues that have to be included in any discussion about B&I leagues, European cup competition, the Rabo ptII, etc. - I'm not pretending to have the answers either, but to ignore the questions and the ramifications of various decisions would be criminal. Historical reasons cannot alone decide what should be done, but it would be a shame to see Scotland drop out - i don't think we could manage to pull off an Argentina tbh

by funnyExiledScot Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:47 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Even if domestic pro rugby goes completely in Scotland, why would that mean they dropped out of the 6 Nations? It doesn't cost them to enter and they have plenty of guys overseas like Argentina did (and would have more with no pro-rugby in Scotland).

But at some point you have to ask whether there is sufficient want for pro rugby in Scotland. And if not should it be propped up for historical reasons? Especially if we're keeping a closed shop at the top level of European International rugby to maintain it? Not very nice questions but it has to be asked.

If Scottish rugby is on the climb again then it WOULD be worthwhile continuing. But if it's not...

Agreed, Thunor, these are some of the weighty issues that have to be included in any discussion about B&I leagues, European cup competition, the Rabo ptII, etc. - I'm not pretending to have the answers either, but to ignore the questions and the ramifications of various decisions would be criminal. Historical reasons cannot alone decide what should be done, but it would be a shame to see Scotland drop out - i don't think we could manage to pull off an Argentina tbh

I thought you were pro-independence?? Headscratch

.....anyhoo, on this topic we are entirely agreed.

by Scrumpy Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:49 pm

munkian wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:What have Bath got to do with this?

I love the Jeff as it is and I don't want to change it to help out 4 teams which aren't even loved in their own Country.

Sorry mate nothing personal but I don't want the Regions and their mud throwing in the Jeff!

Your chairman/sugar daddy etc has very publically stated that the Welsh Regions will die unless they become involved with the English teams - hense me mentioning Bath

Also mentioned in the Bath Chronicle - seems in favour of a merger

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/TOM-BRADSHAW-Rugby-union-braced-brave-new-world/story-20380068-detail/story.html

See above in Bold.

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:50 pm

I guess you have enough of that with Cockers....

by PenfroPete Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:51 pm

Scrumpy wrote:What have Bath got to do with this?

I love the Jeff as it is and I don't want to change it to help out 4 teams which aren't even loved in their own Country.

Sorry mate nothing personal but I don't want the Regions and their mud throwing in the Jeff!

Maybe this is why the 'top brass' at Bath might be interested - http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Record-2-8-million-loss-Bath-Rugby/story-18644371-detail/story.html

For what it's worth, I don't want the regions having anything to do with an 'Anglo-Welsh' league

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:53 pm

You'd have to have the regions involved with an 'anglo-welsh' league, surely ? Wink

by PenfroPete Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:56 pm

Ah, but you know what I'm saying Munkian Rolling Eyes

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:59 pm

So you wouldn't want any kind of competition with Welsh teams or you just wouldn't want them in the Jeff ?

Can we have North, Jordan Williams, Mitchell, Gill and James back please ? You can keep Priestland Wink

by funnyExiledScot Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:03 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Even if domestic pro rugby goes completely in Scotland, why would that mean they dropped out of the 6 Nations? It doesn't cost them to enter and they have plenty of guys overseas like Argentina did (and would have more with no pro-rugby in Scotland).

But at some point you have to ask whether there is sufficient want for pro rugby in Scotland. And if not should it be propped up for historical reasons? Especially if we're keeping a closed shop at the top level of European International rugby to maintain it? Not very nice questions but it has to be asked.

If Scottish rugby is on the climb again then it WOULD be worthwhile continuing. But if it's not...

Agreed, Thunor, these are some of the weighty issues that have to be included in any discussion about B&I leagues, European cup competition, the Rabo ptII, etc. - I'm not pretending to have the answers either, but to ignore the questions and the ramifications of various decisions would be criminal. Historical reasons cannot alone decide what should be done, but it would be a shame to see Scotland drop out - i don't think we could manage to pull off an Argentina tbh

I would also add that I do think Scottish rugby is on the climb again. Perhaps not the international XV just yet (although the current squad has more potential than anything we've had since 1999), but the club sides are both far tougher propositions than they were only 3-4 years ago. Glasgow are already a pretty decent side, and under Solomons Edinburgh have come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 months. I personally think we'd bring a fair bit to the table from a rugby perspective (remember that of the Welsh sides only the Ospreys sit above Glasgow in the Pro12, and Glasgow have two games in hand over them. If Edinburgh win their game in hand, they also go above the Scarlets and the Dragons).

It's on the fan base that we struggle, particularly at Edinburgh, although I believe that with progress on the pitch we should be able to attract more fans through the gates on a weekly basis.

by quinsforever Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:19 pm

I think the reason that the english and welsh clubs could cooperate together in a league is the community and club rugby mentality in both countries, and the fact that real rugby people are first and foremost club and community participants and supporters, and secondarily, national team supporters.

both england and wales have similar dynamics at HQ and MS with relatively overpriced tickets sold to those who can afford them, rather than rugby purists.

and both england and wales have a thriving schools and club rugby setup, much like NZ and SA, but certainly not like Aus.

so for these reasons i think that the welsh clubs (maybe regions?) and english clubs are more natural bedfellows than anyone else. plus the geography makes sense too.

i dont think its likely for all the reasons already mentioned, but insofar as thinking about whether it would work, yes i do think it would. i think it would work quite well. quite a few changes would make sense though. maybe the regions themselves could be rivalled from within wales by premiership clubs for their Wenglo div1+2 spots? that would keep everyone a bit more honest.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

quinsforever wrote:I think the reason that the english and welsh clubs could cooperate together in a league is the community and club rugby mentality in both countries, and the fact that real rugby people are first and foremost club and community participants and supporters, and secondarily, national team supporters. NO DIFFERENT TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY

both england and wales have similar dynamics at HQ and MS with relatively overpriced tickets sold to those who can afford them, rather than rugby purists. HMM, LIKE MURRAYFIELD OR LANDSDOWNE RD?

and both england and wales have a thriving schools and club rugby setup, much like NZ and SA, but certainly not like Aus. AGAIN, NOT DISSIMILAR TO OTHER NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES, ALTHO I'D PREFER TO SEE INCREASED BREADTH IN ALL

so for these reasons i think that the welsh clubs (maybe regions?) and english clubs are more natural bedfellows than anyone else. plus the geography makes sense too.

i dont think its likely for all the reasons already mentioned, but insofar as thinking about whether it would work, yes i do think it would. i think it would work quite well. quite a few changes would make sense though. maybe the regions themselves could be rivalled from within wales by premiership clubs for their Wenglo div1+2 spots? that would keep everyone a bit more honest.

by quinsforever Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:29 pm

ok, to the extent rugby is played in all these countries at international and club level, then yes there are going to be similarities.

what i am highlighting is the degree of similarity between wales and english rugby. and the club vs union debate, which only happens in wales and england (and france but i'm really referring to home nations) is the one-line summary of what is so similar, and so different from other nations.

by PenfroPete Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:39 pm

munkian wrote:So you wouldn't want any kind of competition with Welsh teams or you just wouldn't want them in the Jeff ?

I want us (the Welsh regions) to carry on in the Rabo. We cannot leave the Irish, Scottish & Italians in the lurch

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:42 pm

PenfroPete wrote:
munkian wrote:So you wouldn't want any kind of competition with Welsh teams or you just wouldn't want them in the Jeff ?

I want us (the Welsh regions) to carry on in the Rabo. We cannot leave the Irish, Scottish & Italians in the lurch

Even to our own downfall ? Does anyone see all the blazer wearers swallowing their pride and backing down ? Their whole 'creating new regions' does seem to be grasping at straws though

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:48 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Even if domestic pro rugby goes completely in Scotland, why would that mean they dropped out of the 6 Nations? It doesn't cost them to enter and they have plenty of guys overseas like Argentina did (and would have more with no pro-rugby in Scotland).

But at some point you have to ask whether there is sufficient want for pro rugby in Scotland. And if not should it be propped up for historical reasons? Especially if we're keeping a closed shop at the top level of European International rugby to maintain it? Not very nice questions but it has to be asked.

If Scottish rugby is on the climb again then it WOULD be worthwhile continuing. But if it's not...

Agreed, Thunor, these are some of the weighty issues that have to be included in any discussion about B&I leagues, European cup competition, the Rabo ptII, etc. - I'm not pretending to have the answers either, but to ignore the questions and the ramifications of various decisions would be criminal. Historical reasons cannot alone decide what should be done, but it would be a shame to see Scotland drop out - i don't think we could manage to pull off an Argentina tbh

I thought you were pro-independence??

.....anyhoo, on this topic we are entirely agreed.

Typical 'No' voter, unable to distinguish between rugby (a game) and the real world! Wink

by PenfroPete Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:57 pm

munkian wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
munkian wrote:So you wouldn't want any kind of competition with Welsh teams or you just wouldn't want them in the Jeff ?

I want us (the Welsh regions) to carry on in the Rabo. We cannot leave the Irish, Scottish & Italians in the lurch

Even to our own downfall ? Does anyone see all the blazer wearers swallowing their pride and backing down ? Their whole 'creating new regions' does seem to be grasping at straws though

No, not to our downfall. When you say the 'blazer wearers' are you just talking about the WRU or those at the Regions too? The whole issue is not black and white, rather a horrible grey-corpse like shade, there is much blame on BOTH sides here

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:03 pm

Both sides dude, both sides, under no illusions on how badly the regions have been run

by Scrumpy Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:53 pm

I love a bit of Harris Tweed.

by munkian Tue 07 Jan 2014, 4:37 pm

'shocker'

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