England *EPS 2014* and 6N Squad

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EPS

Forwards (17)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby) Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints) Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Joe Marler (Harlequins) Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) Billy Vunipola (Saracens) Mako Vunipola (Saracens) David Wilson (Bath Rugby) Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (16)
Chris Ashton (Saracens) Brad Barritt (Saracens) Mike Brown (Harlequins) Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby) Danny Care (Harlequins) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) Owen Farrell (Saracens) George Ford (Bath Rugby) Ben Foden (Northampton Saints) Alex Goode (Saracens) Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby) Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Christian Wade (London Wasps) Marland Yarde (London Irish) Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


England RBS 6 Nations squad (35)

Forwards (18)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby) Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Joe Marler (Harlequins) Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Matt Mullan (London Wasps) Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers) Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks) Billy Vunipola (Saracens) Mako Vunipola (Saracens) Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (17)
Chris Ashton (Saracens) Brad Barritt (Saracens) Mike Brown (Harlequins) Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) Danny Care (Harlequins) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby) Owen Farrell (Saracens) George Ford (Bath Rugby) Alex Goode (Saracens) Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby) Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints) Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


England Saxons squad:
Forwards (17): C Clark (Northampton), J Crane (Leicester), P Doran Jones (Harlequins), W Fraser (Saracens), J Haskell (Wasps), T Johnson (Exeter), G Kitchener (Leicester), G Kruis (Saracens), K Myall (Wasps), D Paice (London Irish), G Robson (Harlequins), E Slater (Leicester), H Thomas (Sale), T Waldrom (Leicester), L Wallace (Harlequins), R Webber (Bath), N Wood (Gloucester).

Backs (15): A Allen (Leicester), L Burrell (Northampton), E Daly (Wasps), G Ford (Bath), J Joseph (Bath), J May (Gloucester), U Monye (Harlequins), S Myler (Northampton), J Nowell (Exeter), C Sharples (Gloucester), J Simpson (Wasps), D Strettle (Saracens), M Tait (Leicester), J Tomkins (Saracens), R Wigglesworth (Saracens).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lancaster has given young and new players a chance to shine, particularly with the forwards and fly half does anyone think this is the tournament where he really goes for it? Will he pull something crazy like plating May at 13 like Sir Clive Woodward keeps banging on about or start one of Nowell, Eastmond or Watson?

I think he'll stick with what he knows against France 36 and Barritt in the centres and maybe one of the new boys on the wing.

Blue for Bath Scrumpy?!

I think I saw a quote from an article in that useless rag the Daily Mail saying that Burrell was central to Lancaster's plans for France.

All the best players that come up on these boards that are available are in the squad. (Some might say Cips but he is 'on the radar' which is the best that could realistically be hoped).

The forwards all but pick themselves - the only real questions is who starts out of Marler and Mako, and possibly Youngs and Hartley. But the backline has the possibility of springing some real surprises. Interesting times

My team would be
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Nowell (prob be Ashton)
12. 36
13. Burrell (will prob Be Barritt)
14. Watson
15. Brown

Bench: Youngs, Marler, Wilson, Slater, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, Goode

Youngs and Slater have played with each other so gives Youngs a target he knows.

But Lancaster will prob go for a Backline of

Dickson
Farrell
Ashton
36
Barritt
Brown
Goode
With youngs, Ford and Watson on the bench.

Can Morgan last 80 minutes ? Surely he'd be better off the bench, Vunahippo to start ? I'm guessing your backrow will have more balance than the one that started in Cardiff

munkian wrote:Can Morgan last 80 minutes ? Surely he'd be better off the bench, Vunahippo to start ? I'm guessing your backrow will have more balance than the one that started in Cardiff

Fingers crossed the Ref does too.   

lostinwales wrote:I think I saw a quote from an article in that useless rag the Daily Mail saying that Burrell was central to Lancaster's plans for France.

All the best players that come up on these boards that are available are in the squad. (Some might say Cips but he is 'on the radar' which is the best that could realistically be hoped).

The forwards all but pick themselves - the only real questions is who starts out of Marler and Mako, and possibly Youngs and Hartley. But the backline has the possibility of springing some real surprises. Interesting times

Marler and Mako will both be facing two monster French frontrows on the weekend so let's see how they fare. I think that will go a long way to seeing who deserves to start vs France.

From an English perspective we need both Quins and Sarries to have strong games vs Clermont and Toulouse respectively - ideally to win too. Saints too actually.


Want all English sides to do well obviously but I feel that Quins and Sarries have the stiffest challenges then perhaps Saints, Exeter and Tigers should win their matches.


Not playing in the HC limits the Bath players like Webber,Ford,Watson and Eastmond from proving themselves against the top sides in Europe.

How is Kevsic in instead of Wallace?

beshocked wrote:

Not playing in the HC limits the Bath players like Webber,Ford,Watson and Eastmond from proving themselves against the top sides in Europe.

Depends if you think Teams like Zebre and Connacht are top teams I guess!   

People putting Nowell & Watson as starting wings for England need to give their head a shake.

Both have very little experience against top players and are completely untested on the Int scene.

They also only have 1 AP try between them........

Sgt_Pooly wrote:People putting Nowell & Watson as starting wings for England need to give their head a shake.

Both have very little experience against top players and are completely untested on the Int scene.

They also only have 1 AP try between them........

Thats about the same as Englands try scoring rate form the wings under Lancaster

beshocked wrote:

Not playing in the HC limits the Bath players like Webber,Ford,Watson and Eastmond from proving themselves against the top sides in Europe.

Im shocked that you dont think Saracens are one of the top teams in Europe

There's some interesting picks there, and on the whole i think most people appear to be pleased with them. I just can't see how Ashton has retained his place.

Scrumpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Not playing in the HC limits the Bath players like Webber,Ford,Watson and Eastmond from proving themselves against the top sides in Europe.

Depends if you think Teams like Zebre and Connacht are top teams I guess!   

Fair point but I was referring more to this weekend plus pool 3 is an exception, most of the other pools have stronger teams.

Well PSW depends what you mean by top. I wouldn't say Sarries are one of the favourites to win the HC (might be if they can beat Toulouse though).

If Watson can't score a try vs Mogliano in the Amlin what chance has he got with the way England utilise the back three! Contrast that to Bananaman who got 4!

Ashton has retained his place in the squad because (in terms of caps) he is one of the most experienced and he is on good form in the AP. He also has a very good try scoring record domestically at the moment. He hasn't worked that well internationally recently for reasons that are constantly debated in these threads, but in the absence of Yarde and Wade he is still going to be there

I think some of you are getting carried away about Watson's selection.

Yes he hasn't scored many tries for Bath but he hasn't really been in a position too, but he is great going forward his balance and eye for a gap is a step up compared to most in the Jeff plus for someone so young his defence is way beyond his years. (you can't really teach that)

This year the most I expect SL to give him is a couple of games on the bench and the experience of being involved with the main squad.

Jimpy wrote:There's some interesting picks there, and on the whole i think most people appear to be pleased with them. I just can't see how Ashton has retained his place.

You wouldn't be able to see it. I will try and explain it for you though.

Yarde and Wade who would have both been likely to start on both wings are injured.

Watson and Nowell are two 20 year olds with still very little experience both at club level and internationally. They only have 1 try between them this season.

Ashton in contrast has 8 tries - 4 in the AP, 4 in the HC - he's in good club form, he's also an experienced wing option with 37 caps for England. He has not been playing well internationally recently hence why he would be 3rd in the wing pecking order -behind Yarde and Watson.

Neither Watson and Nowell have done anything to warrant being picked ahead of Ashton - they simply aren't playing as well for their clubs even before you look at experience. It's not just about their lack of tries compared to Ashton, Ashton's been doing other things well too, e.g. assisting others in scoring.

Scrumpy wrote:I think some of you are getting carried away about Watson's selection.

Yes he hasn't scored many tries for Bath but he hasn't really been in a position too, but he is great going forward his balance and eye for a gap is a step up compared to most in the Jeff plus for someone so young his defence is way beyond his years. (you can't really teach that)

This year the most I expect SL to give him is a couple of games on the bench and the experience of being involved with the main squad.

Surely a winger should be getting in the position to score?

We all know that Ashtons defence at the top level is weak.

Anyone can walk a try in if given the chance so picking purely on tries scored in the Jeff isn't a very good thing to go on.

Watson's defence is so much stronger than Ashtons, and don't forget Watson has mostly played Fullback this season Sgt.

Scrumpy wrote:I think some of you are getting carried away about Watson's selection.

Yes he hasn't scored many tries for Bath but he hasn't really been in a position too, but he is great going forward his balance and eye for a gap is a step up compared to most in the Jeff plus for someone so young his defence is way beyond his years. (you can't really teach that)

This year the most I expect SL to give him is a couple of games on the bench and the experience of being involved with the main squad.

Who is at fault for the lack of tries for Watson?

Surely he can't blame it on the pack who have been giving the backs an excellent platform. If not them it has to be either the halfbacks or the centres.

Stringer gives good quick ball and I thought that Ford was seen as an attacking fly half so it can't be him.

The centres then? Are they being restrictive?

Or perhaps it is the gameplan and instructions given to players that mean the back three is not utilised sufficiently?

If so why not?

My point is if Watson is struggling to score tries for Bath how do you think he'll cope for England? England have had problems with the back three but I am not convinced the players are the problem.

Surely if the hopeless Saracens back three can score 16 tries between in the AP, other sides like Saints and Bath with similar powerful packs and good backlines can do similar no?

Guys Bath have mostly played rugby in monsoon conditions and the Rec is a mud pit at the moment which isn't suited to running rugby, remember we don't all have plastic pitches suited to the quick guys just yet!

Believe me Watson will only make the bench if SL is feeling flamboyant, he is a creature of habit and will only select what he already knows.

Sgt Pooly very good point. Support play is such an underrated skill - being in the right place at the right time is so important. Ashton scores a lot of tries because he gets in the position to do so.

When there's a break you want one of your fastest men on the pitch to be there in support.

Scrumpy Watson's defence might be good at club level but till he tests it on the international level, we still don't know how good it truly is.

Ashton doesn't generally beat men but he's just there at the right time to take that potential try scoring pass.

So the excuse for Watson's lack of tries is rain? It was horrific conditions against Leicester but Ashton still scored 2 tries.

Scrumpy wrote:We all know that Ashtons defence at the top level is weak.

Anyone can walk a try in if given the chance so picking purely on tries scored in the Jeff isn't a very good thing to go on.

Watson's defence is so much stronger than Ashtons, and don't forget Watson has mostly played Fullback this season Sgt.

That argument is completely flawed Scrumpy.

Why is Watsons defence stronger than Ashton's? Ashton only generally has an issue on the Int scene, Watson is yet to be tested. What I have seen of Watson is he's extremely bad positionally at AP level.

So Ashton's try's are all walk ins and Watson hasn't scored because he's played mostly at FB, that makes no sense.

I hope these comments were tongue in cheek Scrumpy!

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly very good point. Support play is such an underrated skill - being in the right place at the right time is so important. Ashton scores a lot of tries because he gets in the position to do so.

When there's a break you want one of your fastest men on the pitch to be there in support.

Scrumpy Watson's defence might be good at club level but till he tests it on the international level, we still don't know how good it truly is.

Ashton doesn't generally beat men but he's just there at the right time to take that potential try scoring pass.

So the excuse for Watson's lack of tries is rain? It was horrific conditions against Leicester but Ashton still scored 2 tries.

I'm not saying Watson should start for England he is only 19 and still learning the game but he is a great prospect, for what its worth I think Aston will start for England, but I've given up waiting him to repeat his early performances for England as he simple isn't that player anymore.

Sgt - that is rubbish and you know it, he has made several try saving tackles this season and his defence is the main reason he has been selected in SL squad.

Well said Sgt pooly.

Scrumpy if you want to compare Watson to FBs instead then he should be compared to Goode and Brown - both who have 4 tries and 3 tries in the AP respectively. I know tries aren't everything but both have done a good job getting their teams on the front foot.

I am sure you'll mention the armchair ride given by the Sarries pack but how does that explain Brown's good attacking form for Quins?

Surely you don't think the Quins pack is better than Bath.

Scrumpy, I said he positional play was poor not his actual tackling. Hardly surprising as he's not a winger.

Ashton is exactly the same player, it's the way England play that doesn't suit him.

We either utilise his skill sets or don't play him.

Yeah, not buying the 'rain' excuse at all. Pretty sure its not a localised monsoon in Bath.

Ashton has been a shadow of himself since 2011 for England and his defence hasn't improve one bit.

munkian wrote:Yeah, not buying the 'rain' excuse at all. Pretty sure its not a localised monsoon in Bath.

That's good as I'm not selling it!

the Bath coaches have admitted themselves that the weather has held them back this season in most games.

Very true Sgt Pooly. You could also argue that the likes of Care and B.Youngs have suffered because their style doesn't suit England.

I would say B.Youngs has been able to adapt his style more effectively than Care but is now suffering from a dip of form at club level.

Care is very effective at club level, it seems strange that he struggles at international level.

You could argue that SL picked Watson because he's more of the style of winger that SL likes and would fit into his gameplan.

Obviously SL doesn't mind the lack of tries by Watson and Nowell so it must be their defence and other skills he is looking at.

beshocked wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Not playing in the HC limits the Bath players like Webber,Ford,Watson and Eastmond from proving themselves against the top sides in Europe.

Depends if you think Teams like Zebre and Connacht are top teams I guess!   

Fair point but I was referring more to this weekend plus pool 3 is an exception, most of the other pools have stronger teams.

Well PSW depends what you mean by top. I wouldn't say Sarries are one of the favourites to win the HC (might be if they can beat Toulouse though).

If Watson can't score a try vs Mogliano in the Amlin what chance has he got with the way England utilise the back three! Contrast that to Bananaman who got 4!

Maybe they should play to win, not to lose

As I said Scrumpy, his skills are not being utilised. He's not a stay on the wing type of player and this is the way he's being told to play for England.

We either let him roam around or drop him, it's that simple.

Ashton is obviously not out of form as soon as he goes back to Sarries he's on fire

I'd say that what Lancaster doesnt like doing is picking a young player then drop them when they struggle in their one chance.

The Watson/ Nowell thing is so glass half full/empty. I think its fantastic that Lancaster has decided to give two young inexperienced players, with real potential, experience in the national squad. And yet there are plenty here who would have Lancaster's head for not playing them...

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Yeah, not buying the 'rain' excuse at all. Pretty sure its not a localised monsoon in Bath.

That's good as I'm not selling it!

the Bath coaches have admitted themselves that the weather has held them back this season in most games.

Yes, they've used that as an EXCUSE. Other teams have played in the same conditions yet they have scored tries.

Is Lancaster really scared of giving young or inexperienced players a go? Launchbury, T Youngs, Vunipolas, Farrell, Eastmond, 36, Tomkins, Yarde (wanted to go with Wade) could all point towards Lancaster giving them support and a chance. I think he wants to give players a realistic go by giving them a few games and not the massive pressure of 1 game to prove themselves. I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw the youngsters getting some game time.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Ashton is obviously not out of form as soon as he goes back to Sarries he's on fire

Rory Underwood would look good for Sarries on the wing at the moment!

I bet you a billion pounds that Wigglesworth wont be in a matchday squad unless there injuries.

This may have been covered somewhere, but why isn't David Wilson in the 6 nations squad?   Is his injury that serious?  You don't tend to see people out that long from calf injuries.

If he's out, that means Henry Thomas will be on the bench.  That is both exciting and terrifying in equal measure.

munkian wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Yeah, not buying the 'rain' excuse at all. Pretty sure its not a localised monsoon in Bath.

That's good as I'm not selling it!

the Bath coaches have admitted themselves that the weather has held them back this season in most games.

Yes, they've used that as an EXCUSE. Other teams have played in the same conditions yet they have scored tries.

Not in the same games as Bath they haven't!   

PSW not sure what you mean. England always play to win, perhaps the problem.

I get the impression many England fans would prefer a pretty loss to a boring win. Obviously I fall into the boring win category.

Scrumpy perhaps I am wrong but I believe it could be your gameplan holding Bath back attacking wise, not the weather.

It's a coaches job to pick the right players and right gameplan to execute an effective 80 minutes of rugby.

Surely most of us agree that SL has picked a decent squad overall. It's getting that backline balance right which none of us can agree upon.

beshocked wrote:
Scrumpy perhaps I am wrong but I believe it could be your gameplan holding Bath back attacking wise, not the weather.

It's a coaches job to pick the right players and right gameplan to execute an effective 80 minutes of rugby.

Surely most of us agree that SL has picked a decent squad overall. It's getting that backline balance right which none of us can agree upon.

The game plan has been limited due to the conditions Bath have played in, that is a fact and that is why some players have spat their dumbies out, over the last few weeks Bath are begining to spread their wings so to speak hence why they are beginging to score more tries.

I just don't get the calls for a Wigglesworth + Farrell axis.

Even with the forwards playing out of their skins in the AI's, the total lack of threat offered by Dickson & Farrell closed down all space for our centre's. What makes any one think that this new combo is going to do anything different? Wigglesworth has looked an average 9 every time he's played Int rugby bar one game, his only skills are the same as Dicksons and his weaknesses are the same as Dicksons. How is this not going to turn out the same?

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:There's some interesting picks there, and on the whole i think most people appear to be pleased with them. I just can't see how Ashton has retained his place.

You wouldn't be able to see it. I will try and explain it for you though.

Yarde and Wade who would have both been likely to start on both wings are injured.

Watson and Nowell are two 20 year olds with still very little experience both at club level and internationally. They only have 1 try between them this season.

Ashton in contrast has 8 tries - 4 in the AP, 4 in the HC - he's in good club form, he's also an experienced wing option with 37 caps for England. He has not been playing well internationally recently hence why he would be 3rd in the wing pecking order -behind Yarde and Watson.

Neither Watson and Nowell have done anything to warrant being picked ahead of Ashton - they simply aren't playing as well for their clubs even before you look at experience. It's not just about their lack of tries compared to Ashton, Ashton's been doing other things well too, e.g. assisting others in scoring.

 
If you weren't insult removed, i'd thank you for your explanation. But you are, so i wont.

Scrumpy you play in the same conditions as everyone else (okay arguably not Saracens because we have the artificial pitch but we are the exception). Do you think that it's been proportionally raining more in matches with Bath?

If the Rec is a mud pit then perhaps invest in some more ground staff or a plastic pitch.  

Can't even blame lack of tries on injuries like other sides could.

Yappysnap the reason for the Wigglesworth-Farrell call is simple - both play for the same club so have more of an understanding. Don't underestimate the importance of an understanding between the 9 and 10 - was interesting to see an example of that on the BT sport show on Wednesday.

Both are in good form too (not saying Dickson isn't by the way). Plus I think Wigglesworth is a better box kicker than Dickson - SL and co love the box kick.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:There's some interesting picks there, and on the whole i think most people appear to be pleased with them. I just can't see how Ashton has retained his place.

You wouldn't be able to see it. I will try and explain it for you though.

Yarde and Wade who would have both been likely to start on both wings are injured.

Watson and Nowell are two 20 year olds with still very little experience both at club level and internationally. They only have 1 try between them this season.

Ashton in contrast has 8 tries - 4 in the AP, 4 in the HC - he's in good club form, he's also an experienced wing option with 37 caps for England. He has not been playing well internationally recently hence why he would be 3rd in the wing pecking order -behind Yarde and Watson.

Neither Watson and Nowell have done anything to warrant being picked ahead of Ashton - they simply aren't playing as well for their clubs even before you look at experience. It's not just about their lack of tries compared to Ashton, Ashton's been doing other things well too, e.g. assisting others in scoring.

If you weren't such a patronising little spanker, i'd thank you for your explanation. But you are, so i wont.

I apologise for being patronising. I just felt you were being disdainful and unfairly dimissive of Ashton.

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy you play in the same conditions as everyone else (okay arguably not Saracens because we have the artificial pitch but we are the exception). Do you think that it's been proportionally raining more in matches with Bath?

If the Rec is a mud pit then perhaps invest in some more ground staff or a plastic pitch.  

Do you think that it's been proportionally raining more in matches with Bath?

It has, are you telling me if its raining in one place you think it is the same for everyone else in Britain? Its possible for it to be raining in Bath yet sunny in Bristol at the same time.

As for the Rec until someone leans on one of the residents that is causing the hold ups then we have to wait for the slow process that are in motion  for change to happen.
IMO Bath are better off moving out of the Rec and building a stadium fit for purpose

But lets stay on topic shall we.  

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy you play in the same conditions as everyone else (okay arguably not Saracens because we have the artificial pitch but we are the exception). Do you think that it's been proportionally raining more in matches with Bath?

If the Rec is a mud pit then perhaps invest in some more ground staff or a plastic pitch.  

Can't even blame lack of tries on injuries like other sides could.

Yappysnap the reason for the Wigglesworth-Farrell call is simple - both play for the same club so have more of an understanding. Don't underestimate the importance of an understanding between the 9 and 10 - was interesting to see an example of that on the BT sport show on Wednesday.

Both are in good form too (not saying Dickson isn't by the way). Plus I think Wigglesworth is a better box kicker than Dickson - SL and co love the box kick.

Yes but how effective is the box kick at international level? Defences have that pretty much covered.

I'd say the box kick is extremely effective if chased well, SA still do this exceptionally well.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd say the box kick is extremely effective if chased well, SA still do this exceptionally well.

Very true

You know he said Wigglseworth had been called up solely to add depth to training right?