England Saxons v Irish Wolfhounds - Kingsholm

First topic message reminder :

25th January 2014 - Live on Sky Sports 1 (4:45pm Kick Off)

Saxons XXIII to face Ireland Wolfhounds:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercy
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clarke (c)
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. C Sharples
12. S Hill
13. M Hopper
14. A Watson
15. E Daly

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. R Miller


Ireland XXIII

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
6. Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
8. Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Voldemort would be good at outside centre though Bam-Bam. Very intimidating for the opposition, plus can always provide that 'bit of magic' that can change a match.

(Ugh, can't believe I went there!)

  

Now I might be completely imaging this but perhaps SL sees Nowell's future more at fullback and Watson on the wing? As such he's giving Watson more wing experience.

I think this does point to them looking seriously at Watson for a wing spot against France or the 23 shirt.

It will be interesting to see whether Watson is pulled off after 50 mins or so to preserve him.

I think you're right badger, I think Watson is probably pretty close to a spot in the match day squad and this game will be a bit of a test for him.

Bathman,lucky Watson...we just got oranges...

Clarke as captain, yes he's played a lot of high level matches for saints. But I'd have gone for Wallace, has captaincy experience, terrific player and seems very calm and collected.

Clarke as Captain. Could be either down to how he comes across in training, or that thing about putting more responsibility onto him to help him focus on his behavior as well as his performance- like with Hartley

They must rate Clark so,highly...he's never been out of a squad barely...

There's certainly a physical edge to that back row with him and Ewers....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bathman,lucky Watson...we just got oranges...

The old ones are the best!

Absolutely mate ha ha

Clark and Lancaster go back to when they were both at Leeds.

 I'm sure Clark as captain will be able put a arm round the players who didn't break into the squad.

Tempted to comment on the arm around the players and "break" but as a Saints fan, I thought better of it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:They must rate Clark so,highly...he's never been out of a squad barely...

There's certainly a physical edge to that back row with him and Ewers....

It's a pretty tough pack all round with George a heavyweight hooker, Matthews ans Kruis in the SR are physical combined with Clarke, Wallace and Ewers I don't think they'll be intimidated by the more experienced Wolfhounds.

According to Joe Lydon Clark is Captain because he 'has been a positive influence from the moment he arrived in camp'. He hasn't been playing too badly and if he can keep his temper he could have a good game. Like others though, I still disagree with him being given the Captaincy. Much rather Wallace got it.

Definitely think we'll see Watson on the wing for France and I think he'll displace Ashton!

Sharples has been moved to 11 to accomodate Watson at 14, I think Lancs just wants to give him more time on the right wing.

For France we could see:

11. J May
15. M Brown
14. A Watson

That could be an excellent back three plus they're all fullbacks so Lancs is pleased.

Hope Wardy gets some time off the bench, his form, running and breakdown work is insane, and he can rip the ball like no player I've ever seen, not the most specialist of hooker though his throwing has improved

Ireland team looks quite strong:

Ireland Wolfhounds: F Jones (Munster); F McFadden (Leinster), R Henshaw (Connacht), D Cave (Ulster), C Gilroy (Ulster); I Madigan (Leinster), I Boss (Leinster); D Kilcoyne (Munster), R Herring (Ulster), M Moore (Leinster); I Henderson (Ulster), D Tuohy (Ulster); R Ruddock (Leinster, capt), T O’Donnell (Munster), R Copeland (Cardiff Blues).

Replacements: R Strauss (Leinster), J McGrath (Leinster), S Archer (Munster), R Diack (Ulster), J Murphy (Leinster), K Marmion (Connacht), I Keatley (Munster), S Zebo (Munster).

Plenty of capped internationals in that team, almost the whole team are capped.

The England saxons team by contrast is very inexperienced. Will they get spanked?

Very different (and still valid) approach from the wolfhounds. Think it will be close though, lots of our lads are inexperienced but have played in big matches before and will probably see the caps on the other side as a challenge not something to fear

Is that Cave going in at 12? Doesn't he typically play outside centre?

Slightly surprised to see O'Donnell at 7, and Zebo on the bench. I expected both to be starting against Scotland in the first match.

You'd have to back the Wolfhounds to win this.

wolfhounds are using it as a warm up game for players with a legitimate chance of playing in the 6 nations. Saxons players are all development players with no hope of featuring in the 6 nations.

Yeah well spotted. Cave usually plays 13 and so does Hendshaw (I think) when he plays centre.

GunsGerms wrote:wolfhounds are using it as a warm up game for players with a legitimate chance of playing in the 6 nations. Saxons players are all development players with no hope of featuring in the 6 nations.

Bit harsh, with injuries several could easily take part, and Watson is expected to start for England by many

GunsGerms wrote:Plenty of capped internationals in that team, almost the whole team are capped.

The England saxons team by contrast is very inexperienced. Will they get spanked?

No, I don't think so- I wouldn't be surprised if either team wins.

Don't be fishing GG! This has been a decent thread with some good banter.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Is that Cave going in at 12? Doesn't he typically play outside centre?

Slightly surprised to see O'Donnell at 7, and Zebo on the bench. I expected both to be starting against Scotland in the first match.

He does play 13, almost exclusively.

And I'd say Chris Henry is now the heavy favourite to start at open side flank against the Scots.

Watson probable- Burns possible if he really tears things up. If there are a stack of injuries there may be more. If Ewers shows good form he may well end up as the 3rd choice no.8.

I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps?

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

I think that the depth of the Ireland talent pool and the England talent pool aren't comparable. There are better players further down the English pecking order due to their superior depth who aren't near international caps. It's not so much that there is a gap in quality with the English lads, but there's certainly a gap in quantity. These guys are competing with more players of a similar standard each year. Many of these guys are good players, and whilst I hope and am very optimistic this Ireland team is good enough to avenge last seasons defeat in Galway, I know a lot of the names on that Saxons team sheet and I respect them.

I make Ireland favourites, just, but of you look at the history of this fixture England Saxons have the better of it and when we win it's usually a very enjoyable and competitive game so whilst I really do think we can win, I don't agree that we'll win easily- especially over there in Gloucester.

Mainly these games come down to preparation, tbh. Neither side has much time to prepare and the team that gels better usually wins.

I'd agree with Notch there. England's A team will always be strong. Just because we don't know many of them doesn't mean they're not good players.


As for the team next week, who knows?? Some players are rested, some need game time. I hope Schmidt remains unpredictable with his selections.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:wolfhounds are using it as a warm up game for players with a legitimate chance of playing in the 6 nations. Saxons players are all development players with no hope of featuring in the 6 nations.

Bit harsh, with injuries several could easily take part, and Watson is expected to start for England by many

Yea I don't really see it like that. There are others who aren't included who would be more likely to receive a call up. At the moment perhaps Robson if we had a SR crisis, TJ has already been called in, Matt Tait would be well in front of Miller were he not injured.

As CJ said though there are several candidates who, if they put in a good performance will make themselves next picks over those older heads. Jamie George could become 4th choice hooker, George Kruis or Charlie Matthews could get ahead of Robson, Dave Ewers could well leapfrog Haskell if he has a good game. Likewise Wallace is pushing Kvesic very hard for his place in the seniors.

In the backs it's really only Watson with a chance for the seniors but Sharples and Daly could really enhance their cases. Burns is the strong contender as well and could make it a shoot-out with him and Ford for a possible France bench spot.

All in all then plenty to play for and that is a big Saxons pack with plenty of carriers and more firepower in the shape of Ward, Wilson, Catt, Stooke and Dickinson on the bench. I don't think it'll be a walkover but if the Saxons win it'll have been a very tough and hard-fought win!

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Is that an Irish count of three?!   

Chjw131 wrote:I don't think it'll be a walkover but if the Saxons win it'll have been a very tough and hard-fought win!

Likewise, substituting Saxons for Ireland- here's to a close fought game and entertaining game!   

I think a walkover is not what either side want anyway, because in some ways you learn a bit less. Both the Ireland and England coaching staff will want a game which pushes players to up their levels.

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps?

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

I think that the depth of the Ireland talent pool and the England talent pool aren't comparable. There are better players further down the English pecking order due to their superior depth who aren't near international caps. It's not so much that there is a gap in quality with the English lads, but there's certainly a gap in quantity. These guys are competing with more players of a similar standard each year. Many of these guys are good players, and whilst I hope and am very optimistic this Ireland team is good enough to avenge last seasons defeat in Galway, I know a lot of the names on that Saxons team sheet and I respect them.

I make Ireland favourites, just, but of you look at the history of this fixture England Saxons have the better of it and when we win it's usually a very enjoyable and competitive game so whilst I really do think we can win, I don't agree that we'll win easily- especially over there in Gloucester.

Mainly these games come down to preparation, tbh. Neither side has much time to prepare and the team that gels better usually wins.

Not that I want to be blowing smoke up anyone's *?/% here but it's nice to be able to have a decent debate and bit of banter with even-handed fans on both sides. This is what the new 606 is about!

Got to say I think Ireland are slight favorites on international experience but every single one of those (Saxons) players have been first choice Heineken Cup picks for their team. That goes some way to demonstrating that there's high quality there. Not that i'm comparing intentional experience but with youngsters they've achieved at the highest level available to them.

Quite a few of the England team have played in the Heineken Cup, and most are regular starters in the AP.

I'm hoping for a win, but I think the Wolfhounds start as favourites

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Might not be experienced but it's a very strong pack in particular in my opinion. Their difficulty will be cohesion because most of them won't have played together.

Backline worries me more.

beshocked wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Might not be experienced but it's a very strong pack in particular in my opinion. Their difficulty will be cohesion because most of them won't have played together.

Backline worries me more.

That's becoming a recurring theme I feel! Nice to see a decent pack though.

GunsGerms wrote:Plenty of capped internationals in that team, almost the whole team are capped.

The England saxons team by contrast is very inexperienced. Will they get spanked?

Robbie Diack covering second row - some good players in there but I expect the Saxons to win with home advantage, I think their tight 5 will be too powerful.

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Is that an Irish count of three?!   

Is that an English sense of humour? I noticed Diack at the last minute and forgot to change the number.

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Is that an Irish count of three?!   

Is that an English sense of humour? I noticed Diack at the last minute and forgot to change the number.

Is that a failure of an Irish sense of humour?!

What was the joke? Irish people are thick?

GunsGerms wrote:What was the joke? Irish people are thick?

It was a bit of light-hearted fun but if you'd like to take offence to it please be my guest.

Chjw131 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Might not be experienced but it's a very strong pack in particular in my opinion. Their difficulty will be cohesion because most of them won't have played together.

Backline worries me more.

That's becoming a recurring theme I feel! Nice to see a decent pack though.

Weird not to see one Tiger. Suppose they have been blighted by rafts of injures.

Don't know much about Hill - can anyone tell me what's he is like and how he has been doing?

Sam Hill has put in some really good performances for Chiefs and he's started one or two HEC games as far as I can remember. He was a real pivotal player for the U20s, runs hard offloads well and has some good hands.

He hasn't managed to get past Dollman yet for the Chiefs but i'm sure he will soon.

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wasnt fishing. The Wolfhounds are geuninely much more experienced than the Saxons. There are only three players in the Wolfhounds squad that dont have Ireland caps. Marmion, Herring, Diack and Copeland. how many of the Saxons have England caps? Sharples and Burns obviously but not too many others.

Surely you would expect full internationals to win easily against development players?

Is that an Irish count of three?!   

Is that an English sense of humour? I noticed Diack at the last minute and forgot to change the number.

Is that a failure of an Irish sense of humour?!

I'd say so, aye.

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What was the joke? Irish people are thick?

It was a bit of light-hearted fun but if you'd like to take offence to it please be my guest.

Just wanted to understand the humour so I could laugh along too. Sorry Im being a Diack, rough day today.

GunsGerms wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What was the joke? Irish people are thick?

It was a bit of light-hearted fun but if you'd like to take offence to it please be my guest.

Just wanted to understand the humour so I could laugh along too. Sorry Im being a Diack, rough day today.

Likewise, at least we can all have a good laugh at the Callum Clark jokes. Hawkins might have another opinion however!

Alright Guns, now I'm not sure if you're circumventing the swear filter or if you're comparing yourself to a South African back row who qualifies for Ireland on residency...

Here's a thing; how about you guys pick 5 exciting England Saxons players to watch and I'll try and do the same for Ireland.

1) Martin Moore- the big Leinster tight head ousted Mike Ross from the team for their final home game in the Heineken Cup and continues to impress. Should win a host of caps.
2) Iain Henderson- played lock at Under 20s before impressing at blindside for Ulster. He's used mainly as a lock this year but is a highly mobile ball carrier with real athleticism and power.
3) Robin Copeland- the Irishman has been one of the real bright spots in Cardiff Blues' season, a dynamic ball carrying 8 who is heading back to Ireland and Munster for next season
4) Ian Madigan- one of the most exciting or frustrating or both players in Ireland, depending on the day. Incredibly talented footballer who has the speed of thought and skill to play right at the gain line whatever number  is on his back. Has struggled a bit with his decision making and been in and out of the Leinster team since Gopperth arrived. A confidence player looking to regain some confidence.
5) Robbie Henshaw- a real contender to replace BOD long term, highly rated by the Irish coaching staff and made his debut against Australia. Tall, fast, strong- he's seen as a player who can develop into a modern strike running outside back.

Who coaches the wolfhounds?

Does McFadden start at 11 indicate hes ahead of the other wingers? Gilroy Zebo and he all need the game time yet he gets one of the spots?

Notch wrote:Alright Guns, now I'm not sure if you're circumventing the swear filter or if you're comparing yourself to a South African back row who qualifies for Ireland on residency...

You will never know.

Henderson, Gilroy, McGrath, Hendshaw and Moore. i look forward to seeing how Copeland does too.

McFadden starts at 11 because if everyone's fit he and Bowe will start for Ireland...

...and you can take that to the bank.

Surely Zebo has to be in there rodders?