England Saxons v Irish Wolfhounds - Kingsholm

First topic message reminder :

25th January 2014 - Live on Sky Sports 1 (4:45pm Kick Off)

Saxons XXIII to face Ireland Wolfhounds:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercy
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clarke (c)
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. C Sharples
12. S Hill
13. M Hopper
14. A Watson
15. E Daly

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. R Miller


Ireland XXIII

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
1. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
5. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
6. Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
8. Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues)

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

At least he's moved the direction towards the youngsters...instead of being full of guys who offer nothing...like Robson, Paice, Waldrom etc....

Chjw131 wrote:So of the current crop we're likely to see:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercey
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clark
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. R Miller

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. M Hopper

Given he was in the original squad I'd guess Wilson has a decent chance of starting ahead of Mercey despite his age. Whilst I've said this over and over again now I would have Brookes ahead of Thomas, Collier, Wilson and Mercey so not sure what's happening there!

Also Simpson and Lewis will be a very tight selection I imagine. Personally I'd go for Lewis as his core SH skills are stronger.

As you say not a bad side at all given the injuries. Still think it would look far better with Brookes at 3, Garvey at 6, Robson at 9 and Fearns covering the back row from the bench though!

I HAVE BOOKED MY PLACE IN 'THE SHED' with an Irish mate to add some edge. Plenty of local interest:
"Gloucester Rugby winger Charlie Sharples has today been called up to the England Saxons squad as they prepare for Saturday's fixture with the Irish O2 Wolfhounds at Kingsholm Stadium (kick off 5pm)Sharples, capped four times at senior level, was an omission from the original squad, but has responded superbly running in tries in the past two fixtures for the Cherry and Whites against Munster and Perpignan. The 24 year, will join up with club mates Freddie Burns and Elliott Stooke as the Saxons prepare for the game and Gloucester Rugby team mate, Dan Robson, is also training with the Saxons squad as injury "

Surprised no one has been outraged at the lack of Garvey?

king_carlos wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:So of the current crop we're likely to see:

1. A Waller
2. J George
3. T Mercey
4. C Matthews
5. G Kruis
6. C Clark
7. L Wallace
8. D Ewers
9. J Simpson
10. F Burns
11. T Varndell
12. S Hill
13. E Daly
14. S Rokoduguni
15. R Miller

16. D Ward 17. N Catt 18. S Wilson 19. E Stooke 20. S Dickinson 21. D Lewis 22. H Slade 23. M Hopper

Given he was in the original squad I'd guess Wilson has a decent chance of starting ahead of Mercey despite his age. Whilst I've said this over and over again now I would have Brookes ahead of Thomas, Collier, Wilson and Mercey so not sure what's happening there!

Also Simpson and Lewis will be a very tight selection I imagine. Personally I'd go for Lewis as his core SH skills are stronger.

As you say not a bad side at all given the injuries. Still think it would look far better with Brookes at 3, Garvey at 6, Robson at 9 and Fearns covering the back row from the bench though!

I'd agree with all those changes but the squad I put up there is what I think we're likely to see rather than what i'd like to see. Robson has played better than either Lewis or Simpson if you ask me and his performance at Perpignan last weekend was superb! Fearns and Garvey must be included at some point.

I must admit, I'm not entirely convinced with Mercey, the Saints scrum always seems to get worse when he comes on to the pitch. It's a shame because he made such a promising start, he looked like he would go on to be something really special. But hey, as a 26 year old prop he still has a bit of time on his side.

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit, I'm not entirely convinced with Mercey,  the Saints scrum always seems to get worse when he comes on to the pitch.  It's a shame because he made such a promising start, he looked like he would go on to be something really special.  But hey, as a 26 year old prop he still has a bit of time on his side.

Mercy is very much the number 2 TH and often struggles to get on the bench ahead of Ethan Waller, Tom's younger brother.

When them two are on the field together, it looks like a school boy team sometimes, neither appear old enough to grow a beard.

What I'm hoping for is

Kilcoyne-Varley-Moore
Toner-Tuohy
Diack-Copeland-O'Donnell
Marmion-Madigan
Marshall-Henshaw
Zebo-Jones-Gilroy

Best-Healy-Ah-You-Henderson-Ruddock-Boss-Keatley-Henshaw

Is Ah-You a real name?

Its as real as Yossarian's name.

It's a traditional galwegian name.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Is Ah-You a real name?

Yup Rodney is from the Ah You tribe, the long lot eighth tribe of Galway

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What I'm hoping for is

Kilcoyne-Varley-Moore
Toner-Tuohy
Diack-Copeland-O'Donnell
Marmion-Madigan
Marshall-Henshaw
Zebo-Jones-Gilroy

Best-Healy-Ah-You-Henderson-Ruddock-Boss-Keatley-Henshaw

Are you guys likely to play Best and Healy as well?! If so I think the Saonxs/Wolfhounds challenge just got a lot spicier. Pretty good looking back 5 how's Kilcoyne gone recently?

Good halfback pairing and looks generally strong across the backline although Marshall didn't have the best of games against Tigers I thought. It'll certainly be a learning curve for young Sam Hill and the young locks!

flankertye wrote:Surprised no one has been outraged at the lack of Garvey?

People are sick of discussing his absence now...its just getting rediculous

Sharples has been called up because Varndell is injured (bicep I believe) also Rokadeguni was injured training for the Saxons & is out of the game Saturday.

Any call ups? Strettle is probably next man in line

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Sharples has been called up because Varndell is injured (bicep I believe) also Rokadeguni was injured training for the Saxons & is out of the game Saturday.

Good job Stewie prefers FBs on the wing then, as within a week or two there'll be no English wingers left standing (except for the Splash of course - he's indestructible). Even our emergency winger Croft is out.

Which FBs are left, all of them are in the EPS! Maybe Jamie Elliott? Can't even think of who is left

Eliott
Banahan ( )
Monye?
Williams (actually, we need them, don't take them, as Walker is injured)
Thompstone?
Cueto, literally could do a job whilst all the young ones are injured

Ah Cueto - that weird experience of seeing someone run (for a winger) very slowly but constantly leaving defenders grabbing thin air.

(I guess that makes him the Brown prototype)

BamBam wrote:Which FBs are left, all of them are in the EPS! Maybe Jamie Elliott? Can't even think of who is left

Cooke at Glos is having a good season. Just sayin.

Chjw131 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What I'm hoping for is

Kilcoyne-Varley-Moore
Toner-Tuohy
Diack-Copeland-O'Donnell
Marmion-Madigan
Marshall-Henshaw
Zebo-Jones-Gilroy

Best-Healy-Ah-You-Henderson-Ruddock-Boss-Keatley-Henshaw

Are you guys likely to play Best and Healy as well?! If so I think the Saonxs/Wolfhounds challenge just got a lot spicier. Pretty good looking back 5 how's Kilcoyne gone recently?

Good halfback pairing and looks generally strong across the backline although Marshall didn't have the best of games against Tigers I thought. It'll certainly be a learning curve for young Sam Hill and the young locks!

Best and Healy are both lacking a bit of game time along with guys like Zebo and Gilroy so I would expect them to get some yes.
The backs do look pretty strong as long as Madigan can control a game, his form has nosedived a fair bit but he is the ideal man for the bench due to his versatility and his impact so I think he will be given this chance.

Toner and Tuohy is a pretty handy combo too and the introduction of Moore could be the start of a potentially very exiting and long career at TH prop.

From a Wasps pov I would like Daly to get game time. He has been unfortunate the Shug and Masi have been out injured and has been forced to play 15.

Simpson has gone backwards* but is still bloody quick and capable of some stunning breaks. His decision making has gone downhill though.

Box kicking off turnover ball being infuriating.

Not sure whether that's a coaching call, or if Simmo genuinely can't see the attacking opportunities out wide.

Kitchener being crocked is a big blow; England need him do disrupt the Irish lineout.

I always look forward to these games. The 2nd string sides play with more adventure than the seniird.

From a Wasps pov I would like Daly to get game time. He has been unfortunate the Shug and Masi have been out injured and has been forced to play 15.

Simpson has gone backwards* but is still bloody quick and capable of some stunning breaks. His decision making has gone downhill thoughHis box kicking off turnover ball being infuriating.

* Not sure whether that's a Wasps coaching call, or if Simmo genuinely can't see the attacking opportunities out wide.

Kitchener being crocked is a big blow; England need him do disrupt the Irish lineout.

I always look forward to these games. The 2nd string sides play with more adventure than the seniors.

Kilcoyne Varley Moore
Toner Tuohy
Ruddock TOD Copeland
Marmion Madigan
Zebo Keatley Cave Trimble
Jones


I think it'll be something like that. Players who need matches will be playing. So Madigan is a cert and maybe even Boss if Schmidt has bigger plans for Marmion.

I think Keatley could be asked to play a centre or even fullback role to see how he goes. It could then be up to himself and Madigan for the sub slot. Jackson will either start or not be involved IMO.

Henshaw might also make an appearance.

I think Moore will be sub in most 6 nation games and will start 1 or 2 also. Ross won't be needed to do all the donkey work.

Copeland is certain to start with Jordi Murphy on the bench. Kilcoyne will also start to see how he goes. Fullback will be Jones or as I said, it could be keatley.

Jamie Elliot would not let the Saxons down, he tackles like a tiger (better than a Leicester one   ) and unlike some ex Saints wingers doesn't get trampled and run over. He also has the instinct a certain often trampled ex Saints winger had for being on the shoulder of a player making a break, aka North's classic break earlier this season which Elliot finished. Too much plonk is inhibiting my recollection of who it was against.

I think he has averaged a try every two games, a number as a replacement. Not a bad record for a youngster especially one his size

lostinwales wrote:Ah Cueto - that weird experience of seeing someone run (for a winger) very slowly but constantly leaving defenders grabbing thin air.

(I guess that makes him the Brown prototype)

Both do have that knack of spinning out of tackles.

Eastmond has played a lot on the wing. And if he's not even going to be on the bench for the 1st team he'd be better off playing in these games.

I see Watson has been called up for the Saxons game on Saturday...and he'll be on the wing. Pretty much suggests they're looking at him for the opener of the 6n on the wing...

Has the team been announced?

A blog about this game from an Irish perspective, a decentish read weighing up selection options;

http://www.ballhandlinghooker.com

If you don't fancy reading it here's his stab at a likely 23:

15. Jones
14. Gilroy
13. Henshaw
12. McFadden
11. Zebo
10. Madigan
9. Boss
1. Kilcoyne
2. Varley
3. Archer
4. Henderson
5. Tuohy
6. Ruddock
7. Murphy
8. Copeland

16. Herring
17. McGrath
18. Moore
19. McCarthy
20. Diack
21. Marmion
22. Keatley
23. Cave

I personally disagree with picking the team based on provincial combinations; why not test players in combinations they are unfamiliar with? Thats the way it is at test level and this game is about preparing guys to step up to test level... but these are always the hardest team selections to call. The Wolfhounds are picking from a panel of around 45 players- Schmidt will know his starting 15 for Scotland more or less and if its like previous years none of them plus a few of the guys likely to be on the bench will not be involved but other than that it could be anything.

Saxons team announced at 9am this morning

Notch wrote:A blog about this game from an Irish perspective, a decentish read weighing up selection options;

http://www.ballhandlinghooker.com

If you don't fancy reading it here's his stab at a likely 23:

15. Jones
14. Gilroy
13. Henshaw
12. McFadden
11. Zebo
10. Madigan
9. Boss
1. Kilcoyne
2. Varley
3. Archer
4. Henderson
5. Tuohy
6. Ruddock
7. Murphy
8. Copeland

16. Herring
17. McGrath
18. Moore
19. McCarthy
20. Diack
21. Marmion
22. Keatley
23. Cave

I personally disagree with picking the team based on provincial combinations; why not test players in combinations they are unfamiliar with? Thats the way it is at test level and this game is about preparing guys to step up to test level... but these are always the hardest team selections to call. The Wolfhounds are picking from a panel of around 45 players- Schmidt will know his starting 15 for Scotland more or less and if its like previous years none of them plus a few of the guys likely to be on the bench will not be involved but other than that it could be anything.

Richardt Strauss has been called into the Irish squad, could make the bench for this match?

How much could a standout performance ie from Daly or someone...influence the starting lineup in the first 6n game?

Hmmm, interesting- maybe. I didn't know Strauss had been called up. It means we now have five hookers in the squad. Best, Cronin, Herring, Varley, Strauss   

It won't be Best, and probably won't be Cronin but any one of the other three could start. Two out of three to be involved.

According to someone on planetrugby our Backrow will be Ruddock, O'Donnell and Copeland.

Team is up:

England Saxons
15 Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
13 Matt Hopper (Harlequins)
12 Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
11 Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
10 Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
1 Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
2 Jamie George (Saracens)
3 Tom Mercey (Northampton Saints)
4 Charlie Matthews (Harlequins)
5 George Kruis (Saracens)
6 Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, captain)
7 Luke Wallace (Harlequins)
8 Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements

16 Dave Ward (Harlequins)
17 Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
18 Scott Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
19 Elliott Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)
20 Sam Dickinson (Northampton Saints)
21 Dave Lewis (Exeter Chiefs)
22 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
23 Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)


Clarke as captain. Some people get all the breaks.

Some good some bad.

Daly at 15 not 13 pah

Clarke captain? Is he Lancasters love child

I hope Miller gets on and Daly gets some time at 13. Hopper is not ready to play there for England, he is a great player to watch but has too many flaws. However, I suspect the only wy that will happen is if Hopper gets injured and Quins really really can't afford to have that happen

Standulstermen wrote:According to someone on planetrugby our Backrow will be Ruddock, O'Donnell and Copeland.

I'd be happy with that. Diack or Murphy on the bench I wonder- both quite versatile players.

It's a strong Saxons team. Should be a good match, not sure when Ireland announce their side.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Clarke as captain. Some people get all the breaks.

  

Really like the backrow balance though, Clark is in form and Ewers >> Dickinson at this level for me

I'd have Wallace as captain though. Not sure Clark should be that forgiven yet

Looks like Nowell is ahead of Watson too

I guess, looking at that squad - Clarke has had the most experience in and around the England setup!
I would have preferred Wallace as capt. At least he's done it a few times for Quins.
I am still looking forward to this game on Saturday - I think we will struggle with the wolfhounds physicality but I'm also looking forward to seeing who will step up.

Freddy could really do with a good game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some good some bad.

Daly at 15 not 13 pah

Clarke captain? Is he Lancasters love child

Good old Stewie, showing how he values team spirit and leading by example - could be a bloodbath.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Really like the backrow balance though, Clark is in form and Ewers >> Dickinson at this level for me

Agreed, it has a nice looking balance to it. Arguably more balanced and traditional than the likely England 1st team backrow.

I'm also looking forward to seeing Sam Hill in action, its good to see so many youngsters in there.

Calum Clarke as captain?  Leaving his playing ability aside (which is good), the lad is a headcase!

Other than the obvious (DALY SHOULD BE PLAYED AT 13!!!!!!!) I quite like it.

Pack looks strong, Mercey probably the only weaker link but can't be helped due to injury. Pack replacements also good, Ward and Stookes in excellent form, Catt needs to start pushing on soon and Dickinson is being rewarded for his decent club play. Backrow is well balanced, but surely we could find a better captain than bloody Clarke

Backs I'm undecided on. Would have preferred Lewis over Simpson at 9, especially given Ewers at 8. Burns needs a good game, Hill is a real talent for the future, interested to see how he goes if he is up against Luke Marshall.

Hopper is the weak link in the backs, I would have played you know who at 13 (not Voldemort) and Miller at FB. Watson could push for a starting place vs France with a strong game, and Sharples adds a bit of experience to a young backline

ChequeredJersey wrote:Looks like Nowell is ahead of Watson too

Doesn't look like it. I think Nowell is someone they are definitely looking at for the future but this could be a test to see if Watson can cut it right now.