European Season so far..

by HQ matt Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:39 am

Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?

by Exiledinborders Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:45 am

HQ matt wrote:Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?

Yes. The talent in English rugby is more evenly spread than in Top14 and Rabo. This makes for a more interesting league but does mean top English sides struggle.

by HammerofThunor Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:54 am

Well they're deliberately held back to they don't outstrip the lower teams too much (and they're still well in front). That's our (their) choice and they have to deal with it.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:14 am

So is the implication that the Italians shouldn't be in the HEC OR the Amlin?

Poor Italians - they do get it in the neck in these here western European parts!

Maybe they should be banned from playing rugby at all by the IRB. "You don't win therefore you shouldn't try to".

On the structural and financial point, and it being the reason why English sides seem to have a tough time in HEC.
I'd point out, like Hammer just did, that you can't have it every way. English club rugby makes its own decisions. It makes its decisions on how to run the AP League, it makes its decisions on salary caps, and it very much makes its own exclusive decision on how the six HEC places are issued each year.

Those are all structural decisions very much in the hands of English rugby (RFU/PRL combined). And therefore, if the structures of the League are making conditions tough at European levels for its teams, then those structures are changeable. English rugby doesn't need pan-European negotiations or back room deals with foreigners to make decisions about the structures of it own systems. It can change them if that is the requirement needed to make the English clubs more competitive.

But then, as Hammer mentioned, 'it's their choice' to keep the structures they have in place at AP. They can't have it both ways. Change the structures or keep them as they are.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:54 am

The HC just doesn't do it for me, its unbalanced and unfair and that is why its got to change or go.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:08 pm

Scrumpy wrote:The HC just doesn't do it for me, its unbalanced and unfair and that is why its got to change or go.

This nonsense of women being able to refuse me sex doesn't do it for me, its unbalanced and unfair and that is why its got to change or go.

Let's get rid of it because one guy doesn't like it eh? Laugh

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:12 pm

Scrumpy wrote:The HC just doesn't do it for me, its unbalanced and unfair and that is why its got to change or go.

Just unbalance it a new way and all will be good with the world, Scrumpy?.

This isn't a debate on HEC though, so I skirted around the looming issue as much as I could but still needed to include an implied reference to it to address HQ matt's 'structural and financial' point.

Back to European season so far then. It's not all that bleak for English sides.... one less in the knock out stages than Irish sides or French? And certainly either of them could still obviously win it. I'm not sure what more was needed to feel better about English involvement in this year's HEC. Still there, still could take it.

by Bathite Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:15 pm

I'm a massive HC fan. Love the quality of the rugby and the intensity of the collisions.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:17 pm

Oh dear, looks like more people have fallen for the fake hype that Sky have created for the HC!

If you step back and watch the games as a neutral then you do begin to wonder what all the fuss is about, you get a good game now and then but most are awful to watch.

Thank god its nearly over. thumbsup

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:28 pm

You've had to watch it as a neutral for a few years now ok. Laugh

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:31 pm

That is true.

But Bath haven't been good enough to qualify by our fair system in the Aviva Prem, remember we aren't handed a place just for turning up unlike others. Very Happy

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:54 pm

Scrumpy wrote:That is true.

But Bath haven't been good enough to qualify by our fair system in the Aviva Prem, remember we aren't handed a place just for turning up unlike others.

That's true. You're handed six of them. Wink

No compromise on the number...didn't even make a guest appearance in the compromise non-talks.

by Bathite Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:10 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You've had to watch it as a neutral for a few years now ok. :laugh:

Haha! Exactly my point, i've watched it as a neutral for quite a while now and really enjoyed it!

by **Notch** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

The Aviva Prem I actually admire in a sense in that it is committed as a competition to remaining competitive from positions 1-12. They don't want the salary cap to go because it would create a situation where the league becomes dominated by a small handful of sides. Its even possible for sides like Harlequins to be relegated and bounce back up again. That has to be to do with the salary cap, right? At least to some partial extent- its certainly a factor in that a club can go through a few bad years and return to contention. I don't believe that most English fans want it to go, I may be wrong.

This has created the problem of how do you hold teams back on the domestic front without handicapping them on the European front when the French have more money and the answer is- you can't! The French can outspend them, likely outspend all of us.

I think it would be a shame if the English got into an arms race of trying to raise the salary cap to match the French and the two competing leagues try to outspend each other. But I don't see any way to put this genie back in the bottle. The English have raised the salary cap no doubt in response to the money in the French game and the fact they have fallen off the pace in terms of winning European cups. Will that be the end of the salary cap increasing? It's hard to imagine so.

A European wide salary cap agreed to by all parties is probably a pipe dream with men like Boudjellal etc. around the table. However, the success of the three main Irish provinces- who operate on an equivalent budget to the richest English clubs- shows that its possible to compete. We have advantages compared to the English system as well as disadvantages. It was only in 2011 that Saints played in the Final having won eight on the trot. English clubs can win the Heineken Cup without compromising the Aviva Prem. It's just going to take some careful rotation and prioritising was well as inspired coaching, talent and leadership.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:29 pm

Notch wrote:

A European wide salary cap agreed to by all parties is probably a pipe dream with men like Boudjellal etc. around the table.

Make it a condition. lots of people had conditions attached to the negotiations so far. make that another one (at least as a cap would extend to a European competition) That is to say, Toulon would have the freedom to pay whatever they like for their squad of players (their team, their league, their business as team and league) but when they'd get to European competition, they'd have to select players that amounted to a certain agreed cap. I really don't see how any team could object as it's a continuation of the theme or 'fairness' for everyone.

by HammerofThunor Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:34 pm

The English cap is set based on central income. The French cap won't impact on it. The 'reported' increase is probably based on the extra money the RCC will generate (or not as the case may be).

The biggest issue with salary caps isn't one off owners (both Wray and Craig want a massive increase in the cap or to abolish it completely) , it's things like central contracts. If an international player is paid one salary for both international and domestic rugby how do you split it? Do you include international salaries in the cap (which would make international players less attractive). How much does the Leinster branch of the IRFU pay on salaries? How much does the IRFU pay towards Leinster players? [only using Healey as an example as he's a :cussing good player and expect him to be on a reasonable amount]. If you can square that round peg then maybe it would be doable (not sure how exchange rates would come into it...or cost of living, etc).

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:37 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The English cap is set based on central income. The French cap won't impact on it. The 'reported' increase is probably based on the extra money the RCC will generate (or not as the case may be).

The biggest issue with salary caps isn't one off owners (both Wray and Craig want a massive increase in the cap or to abolish it completely) , it's things like central contracts. If an international player is paid one salary for both international and domestic rugby how do you split it? Do you include international salaries in the cap (which would make international players less attractive). How much does the Leinster branch of the IRFU pay on salaries? How much does the IRFU pay towards Leinster players? [only using Healey as an example as he's a good player and expect him to be on a reasonable amount]. If you can square that round peg then maybe it would be doable (not sure how exchange rates would come into it...or cost of living, etc).

One of the massive problems with a salary cap is the cost of living in various parts of Europe (or even England)

You can live for a lot less in Llanelli than in Paris for example.

by Mickado Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:38 pm

Scrumpy wrote:That is true.

But Bath haven't been good enough to qualify by our fair system in the Aviva Prem, remember we aren't handed a place just for turning up unlike others.

Here are all of the teams that made the knockouts and where they finished in the league that year.

2013/2014* - Munster (1), Leinster (2), Ulster (4)
2012/2013 - Ulster (1), Munster (6)
2011/2012 - Leinster (1), Munster (3), Ulster (6), Edinburgh (11)
2010/2011 - Leinster (2), Ulster (3)
2009/2010 - Leinster (1), Ospreys (2), Munster (4)
2008/2009 - Munster (1), Leinster (3), Ospreys (4), Cardiff (6)
2007/2008 - Munster (3)
2006/2007 - Leinster (3), Scarlets (4), Munster (6)
2005/2006 - Leinster (2), Munster (3)

*Current standings

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:41 pm

The competitiveness of the Irish provinces is based on powerful work carried out in the academy and pipeline (not perfect, and can still be further improved). What this seems to mean is that Leinster/Munster/Ulster get the vast majority of their players through at a young age (so lower wages) and don't have to try and buy-in talent to cover gaps as much as they have had to do in the past. Even Connacht is generating a glut of high calibre youth players (not talking Henshaw, there is a whole production line behind him that is starting to produce quality). Because plenty of money is effectively saved through this method, it means that we can afford to spend quite a bit of money on one or two marquee imports.

I just get the impression, maybe wrongly, that a good few of the Jeff clubs aren't developing their own youth regularly enough anymore. Some clubs do, but it has got the stage that other clubs look to buy-in instead of taking a longer view to developing their own.

Top14 is a leap backwards again, where 'names' are the order of the day and there appears to be less and less 'one club' players left.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:50 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

The biggest issue with salary caps isn't one off owners (both Wray and Craig want a massive increase in the cap or to abolish it completely) , it's things like central contracts.

God, Hammer. We (Irish Provinces) are three sides usually amongst 19 others and we're still the root of the problem - no matter what angle is taken? English rugby is prefectly structured and is in no way ever an obstacle to anything. It's always the Irish element or the league they play in?

The biggest issue in this present Europe (HEC) is very much Caps and what one team might be able to afford against the best efforts of another team.
Nothing fair in that - but as I always say, PRL have never made an issue of it about French rugby as they've been all to eager to do against the structure of the Pro12.

And why not? Because, as I've said many times, PRL don't want to criticise the idea of umlimited budgets because that's the route the big PRL sides eventually want to go down themselves.

This whole HEC debate has been about attempts made to get the foundations for that projected future off the ground.

I'd say wage caps is pretty much central to the whole debate on the future course of Europe - more income from TV rights are going to go somewhere, they're going to go to players, and the increase is going to be used so that big clubs can syphon off best players from the lesser sides. It's a major issue.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:51 pm

For the HCup season so far, I'd say Ulster and Clermont A+. Put themselves into a commanding position and showing some real class. Munster, Saracens, Leicester in a B territory. They did well in their groups, some good displays but messed up in places. Toulon and Toulouse B-. Toulon I feel are coasting along and not showing real elite performances while Toulouse I feel are inconsistent, they show up against Saracens and boss the games up front yet fall to Connacht. Leinster C, they have not been consistent, are doing enough to get through, but that showing against Saints in Dublin was shocking, they have also lost some of the specialness that had them humming and a real threat in previous years.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:53 pm

Mickado wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:That is true.

But Bath haven't been good enough to qualify by our fair system in the Aviva Prem, remember we aren't handed a place just for turning up unlike others.

Here are all of the teams that made the knockouts and where they finished in the league that year.

2013/2014* - Munster (1), Leinster (2), Ulster (4)
2012/2013 - Ulster (1), Munster (6)
2011/2012 - Leinster (1), Munster (3), Ulster (6), Edinburgh (11)
2010/2011 - Leinster (2), Ulster (3)
2009/2010 - Leinster (1), Ospreys (2), Munster (4)
2008/2009 - Munster (1), Leinster (3), Ospreys (4), Cardiff (6)
2007/2008 - Munster (3)
2006/2007 - Leinster (3), Scarlets (4), Munster (6)
2005/2006 - Leinster (2), Munster (3)

*Current standings

Your point being?????? Erm

by Guest Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:19 pm

The Irish players are no better or worse than the Welsh and Scots, the difference is probably kiwi coaches.

The greedy French and English club owners who have piled tens of millions into clubs have created a critical mass of teams that enable a euro competition to be commercially viable. The RFU & FFR had neither the funds or the appetite for Central contracts.

The R12 has sadly failed to keep up financially with the other leagues and euro funds are a necessity and required even when now split three ways. I have some sympathy for some teams being entered into the top tier in perpetuity but in reality that never works for long.

Bottom up structures are the way to go for access and interest. Euro comps and the absurd number of Tests we have now can take care of themselves.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:37 pm

The Irish players are no better or worse than the Welsh, Scots, English or French, the difference is probably kiwi coaches.

That puts us all on equal footing with the ABs. Nice.

by Mickado Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:43 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:That is true.

But Bath haven't been good enough to qualify by our fair system in the Aviva Prem, remember we aren't handed a place just for turning up unlike others.

Here are all of the teams that made the knockouts and where they finished in the league that year.

2013/2014* - Munster (1), Leinster (2), Ulster (4)
2012/2013 - Ulster (1), Munster (6)
2011/2012 - Leinster (1), Munster (3), Ulster (6), Edinburgh (11)
2010/2011 - Leinster (2), Ulster (3)
2009/2010 - Leinster (1), Ospreys (2), Munster (4)
2008/2009 - Munster (1), Leinster (3), Ospreys (4), Cardiff (6)
2007/2008 - Munster (3)
2006/2007 - Leinster (3), Scarlets (4), Munster (6)
2005/2006 - Leinster (2), Munster (3)

*Current standings

Your point being??????

That the best performing Pro12 teams in Europe are also the best performing Pro12 teams in the Pro12. So being "handed a place" is irrelevant as all teams that have made the knockouts in Europe over the past 8 seasons bar one would have qualified by merit anyway.

by **rodders** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:01 pm

Scrumpy wrote:The HC just doesn't do it for me, its unbalanced and unfair and that is why its got to change or go.

Well its unbalanced and unfair from the perspective that some sides are better than others I suppose scrumpy..... maybe we should hand out spot prizes, raffle the trophy and give medal and free t-shirt to each competitor so that everyone can feel like a winner... king

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:11 pm

Maybe!

But remember its not just my view, its the view of the English clubs too.

I will not be sorry to see the back of the HC.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:20 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe!

But remember its not just my view, its the view of the English clubs too.

I will not be sorry to see the back of the HC.

It, however, doesn't give a flying fock about you. Whistle

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:30 pm

That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only it was played on a level playing field for all, oh well.

by **rodders** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:32 pm

Ah here now don't start having ago at the grounds keepers.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:39 pm

Scrumpy wrote:That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only ~~it was played on a level playing field for all,~~ We could go back to the days when English teams won everything and Irish ones "knew their place" oh well.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:49 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only ~~it was played on a level playing field for all,~~ We could go back to the days when English teams won everything and Irish ones "knew their place" oh well.

No problem losing fella as long as its all done fair and square, which it hasn't been for a long time imo.

If only all the teams had the luxury of resting star players for the big games.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:54 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only ~~it was played on a level playing field for all,~~ We could go back to the days when English teams won everything and Irish ones "knew their place" oh well.

No problem losing fella as long as its all done fair and square, which it hasn't been for a long time imo.

If only all the teams had the luxury of resting star players for the big games.

Yeah. If only your Union owned all the teams and enforced restricted gametime on the national players. idea

Oh well.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:03 pm

Scrumpy wrote:That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only it was played on a level playing field for all, oh well.

So the funding field between French Top14 and AP is level? I suggest you try a different spirit level, Scrumpy - the bubble can sometimes be way off.

by Mickado Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:16 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:That has been apparent for years!

ERC should hang their heads in shame, the HC could have been a fantastic Comp if only ~~it was played on a level playing field for all,~~ We could go back to the days when English teams won everything and Irish ones "knew their place" oh well.

No problem losing fella as long as its all done fair and square, which it hasn't been for a long time imo.

If only all the teams had the luxury of ~~resting star players for the big games~~ having a better squad / being a better team.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:24 pm

I also think whatever replaces the HC should be for clubs only and not regions, provinces or tax dodging super clubs. Very Happy

Lets create a true club competition for european rugby fans.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:31 pm

Scrumpy wrote:I also think whatever replaces the HC should be for clubs only and not regions, provinces or tax dodging super clubs.

Lets create a true club competition for european rugby fans.

It's what the fans want! (And it would be easier to win)

Except that if you got your wish and All the Irish players went to France, you would have even less chance of an English winner than you do now.

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:37 pm

But I don't want an English club to win, I only support Bath.

That is the big difference between us club supporters I guess, we don't jump onto the tails of others to bask in their glory. Wink

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:45 pm

Scrumpy wrote: But I don't want an English club to win, I only support Bath.

That is the big difference between us club supporters I guess, we don't jump onto the tails of others to bask in their glory.

If I knew what you were on about I could dream up a witty retort.

by beshocked Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:53 pm

Scrumpy that's where we differ. I want all English sides to do well.

Order of preference of who wins in the HC this season goes as of now:
1.Sarries
2.Leicester
3.Ulster

by Scrumpy Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:56 pm

Deep down you don't mean that. Whistle

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:12 pm

Scrumpy wrote:I also think whatever replaces the HC should be for clubs only and not regions, provinces or tax dodging super clubs.

Lets create a true club competition for european rugby fans.

So that's the Welsh, French and Irish out? AP as a domestic English competition - and the AP as the European competition as well? Makes sense. Less needlessly complex than the ERC show. Same sponsor - BT, same 12 clubs. Good idea.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:15 pm

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy that's where we differ. I want all English sides to do well.

Order of preference of who wins in the HC this season goes as of now:
1.Sarries
2.Leicester
3.Ulster

Now you're getting the picture, beshocked Wink

. Welcome to the nationalist club competition deluxe!!!! But you're late. Where were you when I needed your support against the hounds that kept saying "English" means nothing in HEC?

by whocares Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:16 pm

beshocked wrote:Scrumpy that's where we differ. I want all English sides to do well.

Order of preference of who wins in the HC this season goes as of now:
1.Sarries
2.Leicester
3.Ulster

Why Ulster?
Mind you I would probably end up supporting Munster would Toulouse or Clermont fail to qualify.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:30 pm

Ulster because it's GB&NI .... although technically, it ain't - but we'll gloss over that because we like beshocked's sporting nationalism finally emerging

by beshocked Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:42 pm

Actually it's not anything to do with nationalism.

I liked Ulster when I saw them taking on Leinster in the HC final at Twickenham. Great support and I was in the Ulster section so supported them for the day.

Plus I thought there friendly and sporting when they lost to Sarries last season at Twickenham. Again was impressed by the amount of support.

Not saying that the other fans of other sides aren't sporting/friendly but I would like Ulster to win it if Sarries or Leicester don't.

Toulouse have won it too many times already, ditto Leinster,Munster,Toulouse and Toulon! Clermont are hardly an underdog with their massive budget.

Ulster haven't won the HC in 15 years either.

Probably after Ulster I would say Clermont because they haven't won the HC before.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 5:46 pm

Nationalism isn't a bad word, beshocked. I'm just trying to teach you that. It can be used for bad purposes but it isn't a bad thing. Your Sarries, Leicester and I still say even Ulster preferences are informed by your national identity and pride in it. A good thing, not a bad thing.

by MrsP Tue 21 Jan 2014, 6:28 pm

I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions there Secret.

You have no way of knowing why Beshocked prefers Ulster to the other teams.

Explain why I would rather see Clermont lift the trophy than Toulon. I think the fans of other clubs can influence our opinion of that club hugely.

I have plenty of reasons to dislike the Saints (Dylan Hartley is surely reason enough) and yet I have a soft spot for them because of their fans, both individually and collectively. The fact that a Saints jersey was one of the first I noticed attached to the fence in honour of Nevin Spence plays a part also.

Sometimes the reasons we prefer teams are much more complex than pure nationalism.

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:02 pm

MrsP wrote:I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions there Secret.

You have no way of knowing why Beshocked prefers Ulster to the other teams.

Explain why I would rather see Clermont lift the trophy than Toulon. I think the fans of other clubs can influence our opinion of that club hugely.

I have plenty of reasons to dislike the Saints (Dylan Hartley is surely reason enough) and yet I have a soft spot for them because of their fans, both individually and collectively. The fact that a Saints jersey was one of the first I noticed attached to the fence in honour of Nevin Spence plays a part also.

Sometimes the reasons we prefer teams are much more complex than pure nationalism.

Sometimes Nationalism gets a bad rap because people think of bombs, bullets and war. Nationalism is simply being where you are from and knowing it. So I make the point of not being afraid to use it in a sporting context because it's a very important slice of why we like rugby, most especially the rugby that's coming down the line in 6N. Nationalism - a celebration of it - through rugby, through sport. No bad thing, nothing to be afraid to mention on these pages. It is what it is and it's why 6N has the rich heritage it has.

Now onto Beshocked and my reasons for Humourously!!! floating the nationalist word past him:

I know beshocked - we know each other...we've spoken many times...we've debated much on the HEC issue...we've debated the reasons, the causes, the underlying distinctions between Unions and clubs, the underlying distinctions between Pro12 as a pan-national League and the AP, as a single nation League. We've talked about how we view the teams, how differently we view the teams at a fundamental level. We've discussed how difficult it is to make two incompatible Leagues come to an understanding about 'merit' and 'fairness' in a joint European context.

We've talked about all of that - over weeks, over months. Beshocked knows why I brought up the subject of Nationalism when he named his preferences. He knows my underlying meaning - it harks back to all those disucssions we've had. He knows what I mean, even if you can't very well be expected to - as you weren't party to most of those discussions, if any, Mrs P.

So yes, I don't KNOW why Beshocked would prefer Ulster. But in the course of a discussion, I have a right to playfully suggest that I do KNOW the answer.... again, all going back to long discussions between us.

Now, just back to the 'nationalism' thing again before I finish. I don't need to be told how complex sport is and why a person might like one side over another - but I do know that I'll be totally, with grim conviction, be behind all Irish Provinces through the next round - Ulster included.
Not because I have an especial soft spot for Payne or Olding, not because big Paulie is a loveable auld divil when not playing rugby. No, I'll be behind them because they are OF ME. I identify with them - they are part of my fabric as a rugby lover of many years. I'm also loyal to players who are chosen to wear Ireland shirts and put their bodies on the line so that I can cheer and yell and feel sad, angry, disappointed and elated. I owe them my loyalty and my respect - present and future players....and that loyalty and respect comes oh so easily. No effort - instinct. That's nationalism - that's not a dirty word. It's an abused word, yes, but in and of itself, not remotely a dirty word.

by MrsP Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:11 pm

Context is everything eh!

I clearly was not privy to your previous dicussions with Beshocked. I have tried to avoid "those" threads. Not becuase of you and Beshocked though, well, not entirely anyway! Wink

Fully agree with you on both your reasons for supporting any Irish team and on your assertion that nationalism is an abused word.

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