European Season so far..

by HQ matt Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?

by nathan Tue 21 Jan 2014, 10:38 pm

i see the master of posting off topic is back.

Welcome back SF!

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 10:46 pm

Every class needs a waffling eejit, nathan Wink

I applied and...well, I think I made a mistake when I said I'd work for free on the CV.

606 cheapskates! - they hired me.

by quinsforever Tue 21 Jan 2014, 10:57 pm

HQ matt wrote:Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?

what cac. leics-ulster was a 2-pointer. if a butterfly had flapped its wings differently...

and munster last minute score vs perprgnan.

by ME-109 Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:05 pm

quinsforever wrote:
HQ matt wrote:Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?
what cac. leics-ulster was a 2-pointer. if a butterfly had flapped its wings differently...

and munster last minute score vs perprgnan.

"And if I had Balls said the Queen I would be King"....

by quinsforever Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:09 pm

that's the whole point ME. you missed it in style, congratulations.

"utterly dominant"

apart from a few results of the narrowest margin possible in rugby...hard utterly dominant in those matches, even if the pool final standings could possibly justifly the comment.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:15 pm

of course if you throw in Amlin as well, it's the English who are utterly dominant, as they occupy 8 of the 16 QF spots over both comps Wink

on a more serious note, another problem with a uniform salary cap is the difference in taxes between different countries. The French pay more taxes than the Brits (even moreso for the richest, who are taxed at 75% of anything they earn over 1M, and 50 or 60 % of that 1M), so you would probably have to factor this in for it to be fair...

by MrsP Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:
HQ matt wrote:Just a couple of observations after the first phase of the european season comes to an end.

The Irish provinces and the French super clubs are utterly dominant again. English, wales and scots are not really able to compete consistently for group wins and as such home semi's. I cant really see this changing any time soon and it is a structural and financial issue.

Welsh sides actually out of all forms of european rugby including Amlin is a poor showing. English clubs finish second in 5 of the 6 HC pools and top of 3 of the 5 amlin pools, meaning only the bottom 3 of the premiership fail to qualify for next phase of european season. This leaves me to conclude that english club rugby is not in terrible shape but just cannot compete right at the top of the game.

Oh and one last point, if anyone has the time to check out the amlin tables, do you think the italians should be there at all?
what cac. leics-ulster was a 2-pointer. if a butterfly had flapped its wings differently...

and munster last minute score vs perprgnan.

When I was at school 22-19 = 3

How things change eh?

by quinsforever Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:44 pm

pedant

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:47 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:of course if you throw in Amlin as well, it's the English who are utterly dominant, as they occupy 8 of the 16 QF spots over both comps

on a more serious note, another problem with a uniform salary cap is the difference in taxes between different countries. The French pay more taxes than the Brits (even moreso for the richest, who are taxed at 75% of anything they earn over 1M, and 50 or 60 % of that 1M), so you would probably have to factor this in for it to be fair...

Anyone who earns over a million can and will employ a tax dodger..or leave the country... or tax dodge again to fool the first tax dodger who might get cold feet and ship his employer to the cops.

by MrsP Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:53 pm

While I'm at it...

The smallest margin possible in rugby is actually one point!

But maybe that's another one of those facts that is only important to us pedants and those with basic knowledge of arithmetic.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:56 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:of course if you throw in Amlin as well, it's the English who are utterly dominant, as they occupy 8 of the 16 QF spots over both comps

on a more serious note, another problem with a uniform salary cap is the difference in taxes between different countries. The French pay more taxes than the Brits (even moreso for the richest, who are taxed at 75% of anything they earn over 1M, and 50 or 60 % of that 1M), so you would probably have to factor this in for it to be fair...

Anyone who earns over a million can and will employ a tax dodger..or leave the country... or tax dodge again to fool the first tax dodger who might get cold feet and ship his employer to the cops.

hard to leave the country when you're playing for a French rugby club surely?

by SecretFly Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:59 pm

I'm sorry to be pedantic Mrs P but the smallest margin in rugby is actually .5

As in the difference (often hotly debated here a few seasons back when it surprising became a flavour of the month topic) between a 'Genuine 7' and a 6.5

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:01 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:of course if you throw in Amlin as well, it's the English who are utterly dominant, as they occupy 8 of the 16 QF spots over both comps

on a more serious note, another problem with a uniform salary cap is the difference in taxes between different countries. The French pay more taxes than the Brits (even moreso for the richest, who are taxed at 75% of anything they earn over 1M, and 50 or 60 % of that 1M), so you would probably have to factor this in for it to be fair...

Anyone who earns over a million can and will employ a tax dodger..or leave the country... or tax dodge again to fool the first tax dodger who might get cold feet and ship his employer to the cops.

hard to leave the country when you're playing for a French rugby club surely?

Which players are earning over a million?

by Mad for Chelsea Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:09 am

SecretFly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:of course if you throw in Amlin as well, it's the English who are utterly dominant, as they occupy 8 of the 16 QF spots over both comps

on a more serious note, another problem with a uniform salary cap is the difference in taxes between different countries. The French pay more taxes than the Brits (even moreso for the richest, who are taxed at 75% of anything they earn over 1M, and 50 or 60 % of that 1M), so you would probably have to factor this in for it to be fair...

Anyone who earns over a million can and will employ a tax dodger..or leave the country... or tax dodge again to fool the first tax dodger who might get cold feet and ship his employer to the cops.

hard to leave the country when you're playing for a French rugby club surely?
Which players are earning over a million?

I genuinely have no idea. One million is about 20k a week, so you'd have to imagine there'd be a few, surely? (and almost all footballers, which is why they kicked up a bit of a fuss about the idea Very Happy

)

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:16 am

Wilkinson is I think top paid player in France at the moment... I know Chabal was once reputed to be earning in the million mark (poor devil on those tax rates!)

Anyway... I think Wilkinson is on £56000 a month. Oh he might be pulling in more down other avenues but reckon it's still safely beneath the one million mark.

Rugby players have a long long way to go still before they're remotely in football territory. And by that stage, football players will be buying planets for their ladies to wear as jewellery!

by Feckless Rogue Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:17 am

None of the English sides are currently as good as Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Toulouse, Toulon or Clermont. But that doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with the tournament. They have no god given right to be better at rugby. Currently the French are buying better players and the Irish are producing better players (and holding onto them). It's as simple as that. The French financial advantage is coming from their more affluent domestic league not the HC. And there is no HC rule that I know of that is forcing the Irish to produce better players or play with such passion for their jersey.

If the English clubs don't like it they don't have to play, and it seems they won't. They could try and play the South Africans but I wouldn't fancy their chances. Then maybe McCafferty and the boys can explore inter-planetary possibilities since earth is so inherently unfair. Or it would be easier to just suck it up, and try and improve until you can beat them on the rugby field. Which is what I think the great Wasps, Leicester and England sides of a more successful England era would do.

by MrsP Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:20 am

SecretFly wrote:I'm sorry to be pedantic Mrs P but the smallest margin in rugby is actually .5

As in the difference (often hotly debated here a few seasons back when it surprising became a flavour of the month topic) between a 'Genuine 7' and a 6.5

I thought the difference between a 6.5 and a 7 was at least 40 points!

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:26 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:Then maybe McCafferty and the boys can explore inter-planetary possibilities since earth is so inherently unfair.

I don't want to stir the old hornet's nest again tonight as things are right peaceable overall...but that line just needed repeating. Laugh

Inter-planetary possibilities. I can genuinely see McCafferty doing a quick viability analysis on that one if you passed on the idea to him. That's how confident and ambitious a guy he is................... hmmmmm, inter - planetary - possibilities............. hmmmmmmm. The first game on the moon to test out scoring in no oxygen

by beshocked Wed 22 Jan 2014, 9:09 am

SecretFly wrote:
MrsP wrote:I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions there Secret.

You have no way of knowing why Beshocked prefers Ulster to the other teams.

Explain why I would rather see Clermont lift the trophy than Toulon. I think the fans of other clubs can influence our opinion of that club hugely.

I have plenty of reasons to dislike the Saints (Dylan Hartley is surely reason enough) and yet I have a soft spot for them because of their fans, both individually and collectively. The fact that a Saints jersey was one of the first I noticed attached to the fence in honour of Nevin Spence plays a part also.

Sometimes the reasons we prefer teams are much more complex than pure nationalism.

Sometimes Nationalism gets a bad rap because people think of bombs, bullets and war. Nationalism is simply being where you are from and knowing it. So I make the point of not being afraid to use it in a sporting context because it's a very important slice of why we like rugby, most especially the rugby that's coming down the line in 6N. Nationalism - a celebration of it - through rugby, through sport. No bad thing, nothing to be afraid to mention on these pages. It is what it is and it's why 6N has the rich heritage it has.

Now onto Beshocked and my reasons for Humourously!!! floating the nationalist word past him:

I know beshocked - we know each other...we've spoken many times...we've debated much on the HEC issue...we've debated the reasons, the causes, the underlying distinctions between Unions and clubs, the underlying distinctions between Pro12 as a pan-national League and the AP, as a single nation League. We've talked about how we view the teams, how differently we view the teams at a fundamental level. We've discussed how difficult it is to make two incompatible Leagues come to an understanding about 'merit' and 'fairness' in a joint European context.

We've talked about all of that - over weeks, over months. Beshocked knows why I brought up the subject of Nationalism when he named his preferences. He knows my underlying meaning - it harks back to all those disucssions we've had. He knows what I mean, even if you can't very well be expected to - as you weren't party to most of those discussions, if any, Mrs P.

So yes, I don't KNOW why Beshocked would prefer Ulster. But in the course of a discussion, I have a right to playfully suggest that I do KNOW the answer.... again, all going back to long discussions between us.

Now, just back to the 'nationalism' thing again before I finish. I don't need to be told how complex sport is and why a person might like one side over another - but I do know that I'll be totally, with grim conviction, be behind all Irish Provinces through the next round - Ulster included.
Not because I have an especial soft spot for Payne or Olding, not because big Paulie is a loveable auld divil when not playing rugby. No, I'll be behind them because they are OF ME. I identify with them - they are part of my fabric as a rugby lover of many years. I'm also loyal to players who are chosen to wear Ireland shirts and put their bodies on the line so that I can cheer and yell and feel sad, angry, disappointed and elated. I owe them my loyalty and my respect - present and future players....and that loyalty and respect comes oh so easily. No effort - instinct. That's nationalism - that's not a dirty word. It's an abused word, yes, but in and of itself, not remotely a dirty word.

Personally I see Ulster as Irish. Ulster players play for Ireland in the 6 nations. Preferring Ulster to the other sides is not to do with nationalism. I'd just rather see them lift the HC trophy than the others. It's nationalism though wanting Leicester to do well, despite Cockerill being one of the coaches I most dislike in rugby because of his attitude.

Strangely enough too - Leicester are the heavy underdog. Would be great if they can go over to Clermont and win.

Toulon have more Englishman in their starting XV than Frenchman but I won't support them.

Secretfly you say you know me. How would you describe me then?

MrsP I can understand a few reasons why you would want Clermont to win instead of Toulon.

Feckless Rogue perhaps hold onto that thought until after the HC quarter finals - None of the English sides are currently as good as Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Toulouse, Toulon or Clermont.

If you are indeed wrong as you could be. I will not hesitate in reminding you of your hubris.

You say the French are buying better players - this season Saints signed George North and Saracens signed Billy Vunipola. Racing Metro signed plenty of high profile players but they have been ineffectual. A less talented player who is playing well is far more useful than a more talented one playing poorly.

Irish producing better players? Is that why Ireland continue to be behind England in the world rankings and lost the last two matches between the two countries?

England generally do the best in the U20s out of the NH sides. They won the U20s world cup too.

by HammerofThunor Wed 22 Jan 2014, 9:32 am

The reason they're better at U20 level is because they're all a lot bigger and just batter the opponents. They have poor skill levels. That's what I've heard anyway. Also they tend to be more experienced at pro level, but they don't push on because they aren't given a chance at pro level.

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 9:33 am

Rubbish, the reason they won the WC is that they are a bloody good team.

by HammerofThunor Wed 22 Jan 2014, 9:40 am

Scrumpy wrote:Rubbish, the reason they won the WC is that they are a bloody good team.

Nah, just big lumps who can't pass. I have it on good authority from someone on the internet.

by munkian Wed 22 Jan 2014, 9:44 am

The English side were huge compared to the rest of the U20s teams. Doesn't mean they were just lumps but the gameplan did seem one of a battering ram. The Welsh U20s were more skillfull but couldn't compete physically. I bet the young Welsh lads will be used more for their clubs though

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:01 am

It’s amazing what some people choose to believe!
Did any of you watch it, as if you did then you would realise that England had good skills to match their size too.

I guess it’s just that time of year again when everyone is looking to put the old enemy down. No doubt Braveheart will be shown in Scotland and the Welsh public will be bombarded with previous re-runs of games and the Irish will be subjected to hours worth of history programmes showing how mean we once were. Rolling Eyes

by **rodders** Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:05 am

Ah here now that's nonsense scrumpy .....are you saying you aren't mean anymore .... Wink

by beshocked Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:19 am

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/march/news-articles/030313_u18_report_sco

Great skill here from the England U18s.

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:30 am

Great stuff.

The Jocks looked bigger to me.

by munkian Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:50 am

u18s...I was talking about the U20s, and yes, I saw the final.

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 10:57 am

Scrumpy wrote:It’s amazing what some people choose to believe!
Did any of you watch it, as if you did then you would realise that England had good skills to match their size too.

I guess it’s just that time of year again when everyone is looking to put the old enemy down. No doubt Braveheart will be shown in Scotland and the Welsh public will be bombarded with previous re-runs of games and the Irish will be subjected to hours worth of history programmes showing how mean we once were.

And the English will have the BBC: "Yes, the Italians look like they might score a try but... but let's talk about England" right in the middle of the French Italy game Wink

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:02 am

When has that ever happened?

I let you have John Inverdale is a biased Kumquat at half time but not during the game itself!

by munkian Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:06 am

Scrumpy wrote:When has that ever happened?

I let you have John Inverdale is a biased Kumquat at half time but not during the game itself!

Are you serious ? John 'Lets talk about Wilkinson' Inverdale .... Jesus, the English pundits will talk about England at any given oppotunity

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:08 am

munkian wrote:u18s...I was talking about the U20s, and yes, I saw the final.

You'll have heard the commentary that said the Welsh had a 14kg weight advantage in the pack, then?

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:10 am

They don't on Scrum V, England barely get a mention yet do we moan?

by munkian Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:12 am

Yeah, nice try, Scrum V don't host 6 nations matches.

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:19 am

But Wales does get a weekly show provided by the BBC.

Yet in England we get nothing, so I guess it balences out during the 6 nations. Very Happy

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:23 am

Scrumpy wrote:But Wales does get a weekly show provided by the BBC.

Yet in England we get nothing, so I guess it balences out during the 6 nations.

I'm sure the BBC Wales production people in Wales are Interested in having a weekly rugby show. I guess the English production people in BBC England aren't so gone on the idea??? I assume regional BBC have some autonomy in deciding the kinds of shows they want.

by Cyril Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:25 am

I still think that during Six Nations games a slowmo of Jonny's World Cup Final drop goal should be shown on the big screen at all grounds while the kicker is teeing up a shot at the posts.

For television viewers this could be replaced by a little box in the corner showing a montage of Ashton's swallow dives.

Who's with me? Wink

by munkian Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:29 am

Maybe because the Aviva is on BtSport.

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:30 am

There is more Bitter here than there is at a Tesco express! Laugh

by Cyril Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:32 am

I think BT Sport have done a pretty good job with the Aviva and Top14 games so far. It's also great to be able to watch so much rugby! Smile

I've even been known to watch a Pro12 game on a Friday night.

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:35 am

Poor you

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:37 am

Cyril wrote:I think BT Sport have done a pretty good job with the Aviva and Top14 games so far. It's also great to be able to watch so much rugby!

I've even been known to watch a Pro12 game on a Friday night.

God Bless you, sir.

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:37 am

Scrumpy wrote:There is more Bitter here than there is at a Tesco express!

Tetchy, tetchy, Scrumpy. Relax...it's all just clean dirty fun.

by quinsforever Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:51 am

beshocked wrote:http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/march/news-articles/030313_u18_report_sco

Great skill here from the England U18s.

that 2nd try is one of the best i have ever seen on tv. they passed the ball literally in all 4 corners of the pitch in a single phase! incredible.

by quinsforever Wed 22 Jan 2014, 11:53 am

Cyril wrote:I still think that during Six Nations games a slowmo of Jonny's World Cup Final drop goal should be shown on the big screen at all grounds while the kicker is teeing up a shot at the posts.

For television viewers this could be replaced by a little box in the corner showing a montage of Ashton's swallow dives.

Who's with me?

i would wind it back 1 phase and show the matt dawson dummy that got the field position as well. but yes i think that's a great idea for HQ. Smile

by Cyril Wed 22 Jan 2014, 12:47 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Cyril wrote:I still think that during Six Nations games a slowmo of Jonny's World Cup Final drop goal should be shown on the big screen at all grounds while the kicker is teeing up a shot at the posts.

For television viewers this could be replaced by a little box in the corner showing a montage of Ashton's swallow dives.

Who's with me?
i would wind it back 1 phase and show the matt dawson dummy that got the field position as well. but yes i think that's a great idea for HQ.

Yes, indeed. Those extra yards were crucial (as Dawson likes to point out every time he's on telly) Very Happy

by quinsforever Wed 22 Jan 2014, 1:08 pm

am not a matt dawson fan. have played golf with him and he's not gracious or charming at all.

but it was a delightful dummy...

by Scrumpy Wed 22 Jan 2014, 1:10 pm

Everyone love Daws surely?

by SecretFly Wed 22 Jan 2014, 3:56 pm

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you say you know me. How would you describe me then?

Is that a genuine question of "how would I describe you form our converstaions to date" or is it a half-disguised but not fully disguised mocking comment of "You think you know me, SecretFly. But you don't know me"....................?

There are two ways I could answer the question, beshocked, but I'd feel the need to ask you to clarify the tone of the question first.

by beshocked Wed 22 Jan 2014, 5:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you say you know me. How would you describe me then?

Is that a genuine question of "how would I describe you form our converstaions to date" or is it a half-disguised but not fully disguised mocking comment of "You think you know me, SecretFly. But you don't know me"....................?

There are two ways I could answer the question, beshocked, but I'd feel the need to ask you to clarify the tone of the question first.

Bit of both really. Just would be interesting to see what your answer would be.

Perhaps you could answer it in both ways.

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