What will Ireland do with Payne?

Ok, so I'm throeing this open to the other irish supporters to see what our expectations are come the summer regarding Jared Payne becoming qualified for Ireland.

Firstly - does anyone think he won't be a starter for Ireland? No? Ok, good, lets move on!

Most of my fellow Ulster supporters would prefer we look at Olding Marshall and Cave as the centers for the future at Ulster. They believe Payne should remain firmly at 15 for Ulster.

What does this mean for Ireland?

Will Henshaw step up to fill BOD's boots? And will Payne take the shirt off Rob Kearney?

Or will Ireland play Payne at 13 regardless of his provincial positioning.

Theres always been chat that the IRFU can dictate where a player plays, but only a centrally contracted one, am I right?

How do we reckon, the loss of BOD and the gain of Payne will pan out??

Payne 13, Kearney 15 - Henshaw 23.

No chance will Joe drop Kearney, he'll be one of the first names on the team sheet over the next 2 years and all the abrakebabras in Galway won't make Henshaw better than Payne in the next 18 months.

Trust me, it's a done deal.

Why isnt Payne already in the Ireland squads even if he isnt eligable to play? Surely he would benefit from training with the squad.

rodders wrote:Payne 13, Kearney 15 - Henshaw 23.

No chance will Joe drop Kearney, he'll be one of the first names on the team sheet over the next 2 years and all the abrakebabras in Galway won't make Henshaw better than Payne in the next 18 months.

Trust me, it's a done deal.

Think you mean Supermacs.

Athletes don't eat supermacs!

13 Fight it out, 15 Fight it out

Notch wrote:13 Fight it out, 15 Fight it out

Yeah in the same way WWE wrestlers fight it out to be champion.....     

If Payne is so good can he not play 13 and 15 for Ireland at the same time?

GunsGerms wrote:If Payne is so good can he not play 13 and 15 for Ireland at the same time?

Well he plays everywhere for Ulster so why not!

Payne's so good he can play 15 for Ulster and 13 for Ireland at the same time .....   

Rodders, history has told me that Irish fans get annoyed when a player is deemed a ‘shoe-in’ in a position he doesn’t play for his province.

Notch, you think Payne could miss out on both positions? Kearney and Henshaw have a possibility of keeping Payne off the team? I KNOW you don’t believe that.

clivemcl wrote:Rodders, history has told me that Irish fans get annoyed when a player is deemed a ‘shoe-in’ in a position he doesn’t play for his province.

History tells me that the Irish fans get annoyed no matter who plays and that when the IRFU decide on something and offer a central contract its very hard for said player to be shifted.

People who think Kearney's 15 spot is up for grabs are in cloud cuckoo land. From next season Payne is an IRFU player, not (just) an Ulster one so there will be pressure to play him where his pay masters need him. That will be either as cover for Kearney or as starting 13 to replace BOD - or both.

Either way Payne and Henshaw competing for that 13 jersey is great to see.

What of Earls then?
Will he be selected on the wing?
There are some good options there to.

Will be intesesting to see what happens.

Well........ first obvious point is that not all of them will be on the team! .... so some will miss the opportunity altogether.

Our 13 has to have a flavour of O'Driscoll in his prime.  I'm sorry but that just has to be the audition.  We can't settle for a workman caretaker... not now.  So, that's lethal pace from a standstill, sharp turn of foot, the abilty to see the right pass to give in heated moments of red haze AND to go ahead and give it!  No heroics when pragmatism has a better chance of scoring.

PLUS - the defensive duties - hard hits, aggressive turn-overs, up quickly after a hit to get back into position.  True physical resiliance at International level - over and over again.

Whoever fits the bill should get the ticket.  Who does fit the bill?  We'll find out.  Some of the candidates still haven't played full-on International rugby and others haven't played enough of it yet.  We'll find out who has the ability - IF Schmidt has time in his calendar of games to give all candidates a shot.  I'm not so sure he will have enough time between now and WC.  Ireland have a solid platform to rebuild,

I feel luck of the draw at any time might define some positions as I think Schmidt prefers to coach players up to standard rather than constantly trying to find the perfect player at the right standard, if you know what I mean.  If Payne gets it, he might keep it - and Schmidt will coach any extras he needs into him.  If Payne misses out on a chance to prove himself, then the alternative perhpas becomes the player Schmidt might concentrate on. The roll of a dice.

SecretFly wrote:Well........ first obvious point is that not all of them will be on the team! .... so some will miss the opportunity altogether.

Our 13 has to have a flavour of O'Driscoll in his prime.  I'm sorry but that just has to be the audition.  We can't settle for a workman caretaker... not now.  So, that's lethal pace from a standstill, sharp turn of foot, the abilty to see the right pass to give in heated moments of red haze AND to go ahead and give it!  No heroics when pragmatism has a better chance of scoring.

PLUS - the defensive duties - hard hits, aggressive turn-overs, up quickly after a hit to get back into position.  True physical resiliance at International level - over and over again.

Whoever fits the bill should get the ticket.  Who does fit the bill?  

Paddy Wallace?

Was thinking of him but didn't want to jinx him with my pedantry

What ever position he plays, he need to be in the starting XV.
He i such a talented and explosive player. I think 15 is his best position though, Kearney blows more cold that hot for the international team. At least there is good competition there withe Felix Jones as well.

Payne has to play 13. I don't really see any other way around it and by the looks of things neither does the IRFU.

I suppose the reasons/positives of playing Payne at 13 are:

*He will be the best 13 we have come the 2014 AI's, Henshaw has progressed but I can't see him overtaking Payne as a 13 by the AI's

*Kearney at 15 and Payne at 13 is much stronger than Payne at 15 and Henshaw at 13 because we will lose Kearney's skills under highball and his left boot (mind you Zebo has a good left as well)

*On form Kearney is a superb player and not someone I can see schmidt dropping

Thats just a few reasons off the top of my head. The real question is not whether Payne will play 13 or 15 for Ireland, it's whether or not Schmidt will drop Kearney for Payne, I don't think he will.

Jhamer25 wrote:What ever position he plays, he need to be in the starting XV.
He i such a talented and explosive player. I think 15 is his best position though, Kearney blows more cold that hot for the international team. At least there is good competition there withe Felix Jones as well.

And Payne hasn't played an inch of International, hot or cold, yet. Let's wait to see how he....to coin the old phrase..., 'steps up'. Many have promised a step up and a good many have suffered in the process. Time will tell who Needs to be in the starting XV

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:What ever position he plays, he need to be in the starting XV.
He i such a talented and explosive player. I think 15 is his best position though, Kearney blows more cold that hot for the international team. At least there is good competition there withe Felix Jones as well.

And Payne hasn't played an inch of International, hot or cold, yet.  Let's wait to see how he....to coin the old phrase..., 'steps up'.  Many have promised a step up and a good many have suffered in the process.  Time will tell who Needs to be in the starting XV

OK, very true but if Payne does 'step up' and continues his Ulster form, he would offer a lot more than Kearney does. Don't get me wrong I like Kearney and think he is one of the best full backs out there but I feel he let's Ireland a lot; he is much more effective for Leinster than he is consistency for Ireland.
If he does step up, then you have something very special there

And I agree with everyone who says Kearney has been Mr hot'n'cold in a Irish shirt.  Yes, he has.  Me no like that.  Me get very mad with him sometimes in the past and it's recorded here.

No Kearney does not deserve his place if he continues the hot'n'cold approach.  I've said he's not good enough at cold level for Ireland.  We need a really incisive and involved player in that position.

On hot - he's the ticket.  Too much cold and I just want someone who'll take care of business there and answer to a high tempo game that I'm sure Schmidt will be trying to perfect.  If Payne is that guy, he's that guy, with my blessing.  But no talk - he'll need to do it where it matters (if he gets his chance) on the field, in an Irish shirt.  He walks the walk and that'll be good enough for me

SecretFly wrote:And I agree with everyone who says Kearney has been Mr hot'n'cold in a Irish shirt.  Yes, he has.  Me no like that.  Me get very mad with him sometimes in the past and it's recorded here.

No Kearney does not deserve his place if he continues the hot'n'cold approach.  I've said he's not good enough at cold level for Ireland.  We need a really incisive and involved player in that position.

On hot - he's the ticket.  Too much cold and I just want someone who'll take care of business there and answer to a high tempo game that I'm sure Schmidt will be trying to perfect.  If Payne is that guy, he's that guy, with my blessing.  But no talk - he'll need to do it where it matters (if he gets his chance) on the field, in an Irish shirt.  He walks the walk and that'll be good enough for me

Yes I feel your Kearney is our Sam Warburton. Great players, but well you know
I don't think I have ever seen Payne do wrong in an Ulster shirt, would be a great asset to the Irish team. He definitely deserves it, has consistently been one of the best fullbacks in Europe these past few seasons. Good luck to him

I can see Payne starting out at 13 for Ireland in the AIs. But with Henshaw getting more experience and Olding forcing his way into the Ulster team (it will probably be him or Marshall at 13 longer term) I can see him playing 15 at the world cup.

Golden wrote:I can see Payne starting out at 13 for Ireland in the AIs. But with Henshaw getting more experience and Olding forcing his way into the Ulster team (it will probably be him or Marshall at 13 longer term) I can see him playing 15 at the world cup.

Might be a bit early for Henshaw, although in saying that if Schmidt starts him against Italy in the 6 Nations (not a prerequisite but would be interesting to see what he could do given the chance) and plays him at 13 during the summer tour/ AIs and for the duration of the 2015 6 Nations then we would surely see Henshaw at 13 and Payne at 15 for the RWC.

So far as I know Schmidt is very keen on Henshaw so it does looks likely. However, I still think Payne will start 13 during the AIs because as I said before, Schmidt won't be dropping Kearney anytime soon so we might see Henshaw as backup 13.

As for Olding it's a real shame he got injured, I think he will take the 13 jersey at Ulster and be our backup 13 in time, he also provides cover at 10 and 12

slane wrote:Payne has to play 13. I don't really see any other way around it and by the looks of things neither does the IRFU.

I suppose the reasons/positives of playing Payne at 13 are:

*He will be the best 13 we have come the 2014 AI's, Henshaw has progressed but I can't see him overtaking Payne as a 13 by the AI's

*Kearney at 15 and Payne at 13 is much stronger than Payne at 15 and Henshaw at 13 because we will lose Kearney's skills under highball and his left boot (mind you Zebo has a good left as well)

*On form Kearney is a superb player and not someone I can see schmidt dropping

Thats just a few reasons off the top of my head. The real question is not whether Payne will play 13 or 15 for Ireland, it's whether or not Schmidt will drop Kearney for Payne, I don't think he will.

100% spot on mr slane.

clivemcl wrote:Rodders, history has told me that Irish fans get annoyed when a player is deemed a ‘shoe-in’ in a position he doesn’t play for his province.

Notch, you think Payne could miss out on both positions? Kearney and Henshaw have a possibility of keeping Payne off the team? I KNOW you don’t believe that.

Clive, to be perfectly honest with you, I don't really mind at the moment. There's long term planning to be done, sure, but I tend to think of internationals in blocks. I'm just more concerned about the Six Nations than next season. I suppose rugby fans have the luxury of thinking ahead and speculating about what might happen compared to players and coaches.

The one thing I would say is that I'm a believer in playing players in the position they find themselves most comfortable in at provincial level instead of trying to force them into what the national team needs. It's a constant debate in Irish Rugby because we have limited resources but.... well watching Tom Court and Paddy Wallace get forced into roles they weren't good at as utility players kind of cemented my views I think, rightly or wrongly. Now Payne is much more capable at 13 than Court was at tight head or Wallace was covering fullback from the bench but its the same principle. If his performances for Ulster are better at 15 than 13, he should really be able to put his hand up for that 15 shirt and force Kearney to work for it. That might push Kearney up to a different level in response. If Payne excels more at 13 than 15 for Ulster then by all means, give him a run-out for Ireland in his best position.

The important thing for me is that right now we're seeing Payne get game time in both positions at Ulster.

What will Ireland do with Payne?  

Break him?

They've done it before!  Careful what you wish for!!  Kidney liked throwing stones at players who came to him with big game reputations.  "That's lovely an'all .... now here's what I want you to do instead.  Don't be a hero now, we'll have none of that invention in Ireland.  Stay back..wait to defend...and never..ever.. never let me hear you telling Big Paulie what to do on the field.  Are we okay now?  Do we understand each other, son??"

This is the depth chart that I am hoping for/expecting come RWC 2015


9 Marmion-Murray-McGrath-Marshall
10 Sexton-Madigan-Jackson-Hanrahan
11 Zebo-Fitzgerald-D.Kearney
12 Marshall-Darcy
13 Payne-Henshaw
14 Bowe-Gilroy-McFadden
15 Kearney-Payne-Henshaw

Ps: the reason I have Madigan in at 2nd place is because he is more versatile and more of a impact bench option than the others. On form he would not be in my 23 but I think given form he should be

McGrath 3rd for ireland? He's 4th choice at Leinster. He would need a massive year next year to get any where near am ireland squad IMO.

He has lots of potential but he really needs to work on his pass.

I think reddan will be there and I'd love for Olding to have a big year and break into the squad.

Reddan is playing the best rugby of his career right now. Don't think he'll usurp Murray who's also come on leaps and bounds since the Lions but he'll push him closer than people think. Boss 3rd and Marmion 4th would be my pecking order.

Marshall started the season well but Pienaar's a fixture for Ulster at the minute.

Murray needs consistency in an Irish shirt and he'll be number one for quite a while.  But he needs consistency...no drop dog, hangy eared days over the 6N.  On fire and alert at all times.  Be the player he talks of being.  Last chance saloon for him to show he's boss through 5 games.

The others?  Sometimes it's Redden, sometimes it's very much Boss.  Boss is more resilient in International terms - won't get knocked about as much as light boned Redden.  More of a greedy dog than an artist.  My heart thinks he'd excel as number two (replacement) for Murray in Schmidt's Ireland.

Redden has always been used when Leinster want to 'play' more than they want to engage in the attritional forward based, defensive kind of game.  But in real terms, you get more chances to play in Pro12 and even in HEC than you're likely to get in the 6N.  Physicality always goes up a few notches and Redden can often be seen sucking for breath even in a relatively light encounter.  He brings pace but he can also feel it when things aren't going according to plan.

And yet still - hmmm Boss or Redden.  Haven't decided.

He's sucking for breath because he's old.... old people aren't supposed to be running around rugby pitches.... but if the anti ageism in sport PC brigade insist that age is just a number and giving these auld fellas contracts then we aren't in a position to be leaving our elderly form players out.

God, it's terrible times when a young fella like Redden is called old............ terrible times not for him but for others who still thought they were 'young' and are a good decade older than him

Anyway...it can look absolutely painful at times when you see him engage in it. Maybe he has asthma.... but I'm still undecided.  Like them both - could we sneak in a 16th player when the ballboys aren't looking?

It will all end in tears. We should be rounding up our over 30s and creating a bowling team.

BOD is 35 today. Just thought Id drop that in.

Ouch.

Two years past his Jesus period.  That's why Redden is playing the best rugby of his career.  33 is a significant age for most men strangely.  Though I can't remember what Jesus stuff I got up to at that age..