Project Payne is a mistake

by Pot Hale Sun May 25, 2014 11:54 am

The IRFU has allowed a number of players to be deemed to be Project Players - the potential to play for Ireland through 3-year residency rule - and, more critically, being good enough to play.

The first is easy enough to achieve - bend the rule on foreign NIE players by saying Project Players don't count as part of the quota.

The second less so. Richardt Strauss is probably the most high-profile Project Players to have gained a couple of Irish caps in recent years. After that, the cupboard looks somewhat bare, not because there isn't a pool of players there, but the talent they represent. Bluntly, most, if not all, simply aren't good enough.

Rodney Ah You, Brett Wilkinson, Robbie Diack, Quinn Roux, CJ Stander, Tyler Beyendaal, Bundee Aki are/were just some of the names rolled out as possibilities to don the Ireland jersey. And, of course, the apparent dead cert, to wear the 13 shirt in the Autumn Internationals, one Jared Payne.

In fact, it's Payne's imminent arrival into the test arena, that prompted me to put pen to paper, or fingertips to keyboard. Because you just have to ask, is Joe Schmidt really serious about including the New Zealander in his preparations for the World Cup next year?

In my view, Payne is flawed, a flake. He may well wow the crowds at Ravenhill, from his position at full-back, but the thought that he might be deemed to be the best successor to O'Driscoll, and wear an Ireland jersey, has me shaking my head - I just don't get it. He seemed to be largely anonymous in his recent roles there for Ulster, and, if truth be told, hasn't been making waves at 15 either - for the right reasons anyway. He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough. At critical moments in matches, he has made reckless decisions, fatally hesitated, opts for contact rather than space, and his defensive abilities, are somewhat suspect.

Too often, a player arrives on these shores, and because they've got the birth country initials - SA, Aus, or most importantly, NZ - after their name, the running assumption is that they MUST be good. Frankly, they're not. And some of the recent "Project' acquisitions" have been shown up within a short time as being 'journeyman' at best, and downright awful at other times.

I've no idea as to whether the likes of Bundee Aki or Tyler Bleyenhaal will turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread when they arrive to play in Ireland in the new season. The notion that somehow they'll be so much better than their Irish counterparts/equivalents has my eyebrows rising more often than normal. And, even if they are, does Ireland really, really, have to rely on them, rather than put the money, time and investment into developing home-grown players?

It may sound barmy, but I hope sincerely, that the only green jersey that Jared Payne ever might put on would be at best, a Connacht one. Ireland deserve better prospects, not wing and a prayer projects.

by **Notch** Sun May 25, 2014 12:01 pm

I agree, he's been slightly overhyped and he still has a lot to prove as a 13 to secure international honours. A lot of Ulster fans are quite upset at him potentially being given a shot at being first choice 13 for Ulster despite Caves form, as that would involve him moving from his best position- the more time he has on the ball the better he is and at 13 for Ulster he looks less impressive with less time. At 15 he is a counter-attacking creative genius but at 13 it's different and at test level he'll have even less time on the ball there.

He certainly does have the raw talent though- I have no doubt about that, thats where I'd disagree with you. But so do a lot of our homegrown players who have been told to go away and work on things, like Zebo. Payne has 'work-ons' in his game too. He's no certainty.

by Pete330v2 Sun May 25, 2014 12:18 pm

" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

by Standulstermen Sun May 25, 2014 12:46 pm

Yeah, there are some good points in the OP mixed in with a lot of nonsense. I don't think he is a flake at all and I suspect had the Goode incident not occurred no one would be questioning his temperament at all.

Ask saints fans who saw him take their team apart in Franklins Gardens or witness the stunning try he made in Montpellier by spotting space.

Now where I agree with you is that his attributes and appreciation of space is much more evident at 15 than at 13 because he can see everything in front of him. He has a lovely sense of weight on the pass as well. My gut feeling is that with a run of games he is a better 13 than Cave but I think he is an exceptional 15 and could possibly take the position of Kearney.

I would much rather we saw Olding in the centre with Marshall than Payne (at Ulster) and I am very excited about seeing Henshaw develop.

by **Biltong** Sun May 25, 2014 12:52 pm

You have to ask yourself why a player born in a country with the initials of SA, OZ or NZ would leave his country of birth in the first place.

I would think the majority would dream of representing their own country first, until perhaps in their own minds they think they are not good enough to reach the required level to represent their country of birth.

They leave in hope of something better, that does not necessarily suggest they are good enough.

by Pot Hale Sun May 25, 2014 1:10 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

by Pot Hale Sun May 25, 2014 1:12 pm

Biltong wrote:You have to ask yourself why a player born in a country with the initials of SA, OZ or NZ would leave his country of birth in the first place.

I would think the majority would dream of representing their own country first, until perhaps in their own minds they think they are not good enough to reach the required level to represent their country of birth.

They leave in hope of something better, that does not necessarily suggest they are good enough.

Nail on the head.

by Sin é Sun May 25, 2014 1:56 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Yeah, there are some good points in the OP mixed in with a lot of nonsense. I don't think he is a flake at all and I suspect had the Goode incident not occurred no one would be questioning his temperament at all.

I don't think he is a flake, but I can't recall him showing up in a big game yet in the way Pienaar can. He seems to go into his shell and if he does that at club level, he is going to be worse at international level.

That doesn't mean he isn't a very good player - I'd put it this way - he seems to be the opposite of Zebo who just loves (and performs) on the big stage.

by Standulstermen Sun May 25, 2014 2:15 pm

It depends what you mean by a big game. Away to montpellier and Saints last year were as big a game as it gets for Ulster. He was excellent in both and MOTM in one. Similarly he had a big game against leinster last year at the RDS when we won.

He has had some bad games dont get me wrong. He was relatively mediocre against Leicester in welford road without being poor.

by Pete330v2 Sun May 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

by Sin é Sun May 25, 2014 6:21 pm

Standulstermen wrote:It depends what you mean by a big game. Away to montpellier and Saints last year were as big a game as it gets for Ulster. He was excellent in both and MOTM in one. Similarly he had a big game against leinster last year at the RDS when we won.

He has had some bad games dont get me wrong. He was relatively mediocre against Leicester in welford road without being poor.

In one or two games he has gone into his shell - Heineken Cup - Saracens last year for one I think. Can't remember exactly what games, but I remember thinking he needed to stand up and lead as he wasn't it.

by The Great Aukster Sun May 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Biltong wrote:You have to ask yourself why a player born in a country with the initials of SA, OZ or NZ would leave his country of birth in the first place.

I would think the majority would dream of representing their own country first, until perhaps in their own minds they think they are not good enough to reach the required level to represent their country of birth.

They leave in hope of something better, that does not necessarily suggest they are good enough.

Just because they're not good enough to get into a Bok, Black or Wallaby shirt doesn't mean they won't be much better than anything in a green shirt. Ireland has a small number of Pro players so a 2nd or 3rd choice All Black is likely to be way ahead of local players in terms of ability.

If they get selected for their new country then by definition that means that are good enough for that country.

by Standulstermen Sun May 25, 2014 6:42 pm

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:It depends what you mean by a big game. Away to montpellier and Saints last year were as big a game as it gets for Ulster. He was excellent in both and MOTM in one. Similarly he had a big game against leinster last year at the RDS when we won.

He has had some bad games dont get me wrong. He was relatively mediocre against Leicester in welford road without being poor.

In one or two games he has gone into his shell - Heineken Cup - Saracens last year for one I think. Can't remember exactly what games, but I remember thinking he needed to stand up and lead as he wasn't it.

Jesus Sin. Pick a number between 1-15 and they all went into their shell in that one!

by **profitius** Sun May 25, 2014 9:34 pm

Payne is a class player. He isn't playing great lately but that shouldn't take away from what he has done at Ulster over the last 2 or 3 years.

I'd have him in my first choice Ireland squad... If he was Irish! And that's the main point of this thread. Its a disgrace what's happening. Its basically buying players

by Sin é Sun May 25, 2014 10:24 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
Jesus Sin. Pick a number between 1-15 and they all went into their shell in that one!

I'd expect more from him. Rob Kearney is a player who tends to rise to the big occasion.

I wonder how popular Payne is within the Ulster squad - he is litterally pushing Cave out of the club with his ambition.

by Standulstermen Sun May 25, 2014 11:27 pm

I can name you plenty of big occasions in the last two years Rob hasn't risen too. Take nothing away from him at present, he is playing well but that wasn't the case last season as indeed it wasn't for much of the Ireland team.

Let's just wait and see how it goes. My preference is for Henshaw, Olding and Marshall to nail down the centre spots as I have said. If Cave is good enough to be playing 13 for Ulster I'm confident he will be selected. If he isn't he won't. It's called competition and Cave, Payne and any other top player should welcome it

by Pot Hale Mon May 26, 2014 3:56 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

Eh, you said Payne is "mercurial at 15". Then you say he's "consistently a class act". Which is it?

by Pete330v2 Mon May 26, 2014 9:26 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

Eh, you said Payne is "mercurial at 15". Then you say he's "consistently a class act". Which is it?

Such an intelligent retort, about as intelligent as the original post. He would be both, do you need any explanation?

by geoff998rugby Mon May 26, 2014 9:36 am

A number of observations:

Payne came to Ulster for one simple reason - money
He is a class act at 15
I do not believe he is anything special at 13 and believe Henshaw and Cave are better 13's.
I believe he should be going head to head with Kearney for the 15 shirt rather than 13.

Talk of not having the temperament is bunk. Way too much being made of one mistake.
On that basis nearly all players in International rugby don't have the temperament.

Again the myth of players being brought here to play for Ireland being reinforced - the reason these players are brought here is to address shortfalls in the Provincal teams not Ireland. That is why many are not International class and many are brought in in positions where Ireland are strong. As mentioned only 1 player (Strauss) has played at all and even he is, at best, 3rd choice hooker.

by **rodders** Mon May 26, 2014 9:54 am

For me its simple, you select the team on merit regardless of whether a player is indigenous or has qualified through residency or grand parentage.

Ireland has a small player pool and can't afford to turn our noses up at high quality players who are committed and want to play for us.

Payne is a quality player, who can play across the backline so it is nonsense to say he isn't good enough to be in the picture. If he is the best player then he should be picked, if not he shouldn't be,

Are Best and Cronin better or worse players because of Strauss? Chris Henry because of Diack? POM because of Stander? I'd say the former. Competition for places should be embraced not feared,

What I don't agree with is the conscious targeting of other countries players but that's the nature of the sport now.

by rainbow-warrior Mon May 26, 2014 10:04 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
Biltong wrote:You have to ask yourself why a player born in a country with the initials of SA, OZ or NZ would leave his country of birth in the first place.

I would think the majority would dream of representing their own country first, until perhaps in their own minds they think they are not good enough to reach the required level to represent their country of birth.

They leave in hope of something better, that does not necessarily suggest they are good enough.

Just because they're not good enough to get into a Bok, Black or Wallaby shirt doesn't mean they won't be much better than anything in a green shirt. Ireland has a small number of Pro players so a 2nd or 3rd choice All Black is likely to be way ahead of local players in terms of ability.

If they get selected for their new country then by definition that means that are good enough for that country.

My God the sheer arrogance of it. I am off for a puke vomit

by **rodders** Mon May 26, 2014 10:12 am

rainbow-warrior wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Biltong wrote:You have to ask yourself why a player born in a country with the initials of SA, OZ or NZ would leave his country of birth in the first place.

I would think the majority would dream of representing their own country first, until perhaps in their own minds they think they are not good enough to reach the required level to represent their country of birth.

They leave in hope of something better, that does not necessarily suggest they are good enough.

Just because they're not good enough to get into a Bok, Black or Wallaby shirt doesn't mean they won't be much better than anything in a green shirt. Ireland has a small number of Pro players so a 2nd or 3rd choice All Black is likely to be way ahead of local players in terms of ability.

If they get selected for their new country then by definition that means that are good enough for that country.

My God the sheer arrogance of it. I am off for a puke

But true all the same. Particularly with regards South Africa who have a huge player pool. They could probably populate every team in the 6N with international standard locks and back rowers.

There's certainly no shame in not making it at international level in NZ or SA.

by Pete330v2 Mon May 26, 2014 10:19 am

"For me its simple, you select the team on merit regardless of whether a player is indigenous or has qualified through residency or grand parentage."

Exactly Rodders, we've played non-indigenous players for years be they English or Kiwi so what's the difference if a player's great granny never tasted guinness? The OP is critisising a player about which he obviously has limited knowledge, perhaps a retitling to 'project Strauss was a mistake' would be apt if one player is to be singled out.

by **rodders** Mon May 26, 2014 10:26 am

I don't recall anyone throwing the arms in the air about Simon Easterbuy keeping out home grown talent Pete.....

by geoff998rugby Mon May 26, 2014 10:43 am

But Simon Easterby did at least have an Irish parent

If a player is available you consider them on merit.
Whether or not a player should be available is a different matter.

For me, if good enough, Payne should play.
I would rather he wasn't eligable especially as at the the moment Ireland has a record second to none (with the possible exception of SA) regarding resident only players in the professional era.
I am proud of that

As regards the strength of NZ and SA and the rest.
The simple reality is they have players, who fall short of their Test team, who could get into just about any other side

by SecretFly Mon May 26, 2014 11:08 am

You select a player strictly on Anti EU bureaucracy - "free-for-all movement of peoples, trade and unemployment benefits in the country you don't live in but fly into every month to collect the cheques" - principles! And if you don't believe me, then just tip over to the political news channels to see the future.
The future is Payne having to come up with a false Irish granny (like Cascarino before him) or he's OUT!

I of course have started a little business recently where I provide false Irish grannies for a small fee...plus expenses and bonuses for success rates in evading red tape.

by **rodders** Mon May 26, 2014 11:12 am

Personally I don't think southerners should be selected for Ireland ahead of NI based players but you know sometimes you have to compromise on your principals for the good of the team.

by **Biltong** Mon May 26, 2014 11:40 am

rodders wrote:Personally I don't think southerners should be selected for Ireland ahead of NI based players but you know sometimes you have to compromise on your principals for the good of the team.

The question is how does it impact on core values when you have to compromise? What do you compromise next?

by SecretFly Mon May 26, 2014 11:52 am

Compromise is round table talks - around usually an oblong table - and saying many things that involve the words "in all fairness" and "at the end of the day" - coming and going for cups of tea and meetings with people you won't ever shake hands with in public, and trying to find the media mob somewhere in the corrodors so that you can briskly stop only for some seconds (because you're much too busy and your frown of concentration much too intelligent to linger long) - time enough only to say "no comment -but progress is being made and we might have agreement before midnight 6th Dec 2047."

That's compromise. Anything else is stalemate.

by **rodders** Mon May 26, 2014 12:02 pm

Biltong wrote:
rodders wrote:Personally I don't think southerners should be selected for Ireland ahead of NI based players but you know sometimes you have to compromise on your principals for the good of the team.

The question is how does it impact on core values when you have to compromise? What do you compromise next?

...well actually that was joke but its a good point you make.

I don't have the answer where you draw the line in the sand - I think the status quo is marginally on the lenient side in terms of players jumping ship but not as big an issue as people are making out - quite similar to the arguments about EU immigration ironically enough.... it's not perfect but it's ok....

by Pot Hale Mon May 26, 2014 8:30 pm

[quote="Pete330v2"][quote="Pot Hale"]

Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

Eh, you said Payne is "mercurial at 15". Then you say he's "consistently a class act". Which is it?

Pete330v2 wrote:"Such an intelligent retort, about as intelligent as the original post. He would be both, do you need any explanation?

He would be both?

Mercurial = volatile, capricious, temperamental, excitable, fickle, changeable, unpredictable, variable, erratic, inconstant, inconsistent, unstable, unsteady, fluctuating......

"Consistently a class act"

So is he mercurially consistent or consistently mercurial? Smile

by Pete330v2 Mon May 26, 2014 9:28 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

Eh, you said Payne is "mercurial at 15". Then you say he's "consistently a class act". Which is it?

Pete330v2 wrote:"Such an intelligent retort, about as intelligent as the original post. He would be both, do you need any explanation?

He would be both?

Mercurial = volatile, capricious, temperamental, excitable, fickle, changeable, unpredictable, variable, erratic, inconstant, inconsistent, unstable, unsteady, fluctuating......

"Consistently a class act"

So is he mercurially consistent or consistently mercurial?

Obviously on this subject matter, in this context you are confused.

Mercurial - animated; lively; sprightly; quick-witted.

Don't try the semantics card when your post shows how you know nothing of the subject matter and you try to back up your ridiculous and laughable views by cutting and pasting the wrong definaition from an online dictionary.

by Pot Hale Mon May 26, 2014 11:03 pm

[quote="Pete330v2"][quote="Pot Hale"]

Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:" He may be a really good club player, but his temperament for test rugby, is in my view, not good enough"

How do you even know what his temperament for test rugby is if he hasn't played test rugby. Give the guy a chance before critising his ability, abilities that exceed more than a few who are regulars in the green jersey of Ireland. Payne has plenty to prove at 13 for Ulser let alone Ireland and he has what it takes as his last super rugby season is testament to but at 15 he's mercurial. The on thing Payne is not is a flake and if you can find a single player on the planet that isn't flawed I'd be amazed.
Lets wait and see, you may be feeling a little stupid if he's scoring and pulling the strings for Ireland in future seasons or you may feel very righteous if he falls flat on his face but lets just wait and see.

It's not about feeling stupid or righteous. Even if was really consistently good, I'd still question him being allowed to play for Ireland. And if your assessment of him is that "at 15 he's mercurial", then this is hardly a ringing endorsement of him for Ireland in another position. Ireland doesn't need a mercurial player at 13 - or any other position probably. They need consistency of play - not ups and downs.

Where is it Ireland has had it's consistency of play by any squad member in the last number of years?
Where have Payne's ups and downs been? He's been a class above the rest at times and damn good in others, he always brings something to the party. If you are referrring to the incident against Saracens as to his temperament then look elsewhere, he played that high ball as he should have and always does. The man is consistenly a class act and has most definately got the talent to bring that to the international setup be it at 15 or 13. I'd be looking at some of the homegrown players to question consistency, flakiness or temperament rather than Paynes.
I should add that the All Blacks did come calling for Jared after his Ulster move but he stayed put. He is definately good enough unlike most of our projects

Eh, you said Payne is "mercurial at 15". Then you say he's "consistently a class act". Which is it?

Pete330v2 wrote:"Such an intelligent retort, about as intelligent as the original post. He would be both, do you need any explanation?

He would be both?

Mercurial = volatile, capricious, temperamental, excitable, fickle, changeable, unpredictable, variable, erratic, inconstant, inconsistent, unstable, unsteady, fluctuating......

"Consistently a class act"

So is he mercurially consistent or consistently mercurial?

Obviously on this subject matter, in this context you are confused.

Mercurial - animated; lively; sprightly; quick-witted.

Don't try the semantics card when your post shows how you know nothing of the subject matter and you try to back up your ridiculous and laughable views by cutting and pasting the wrong definaition from an online dictionary.

"My ridiculous and laughable views"?? I didn't deride your views

I provided synonyms, not your dictionary definition - from which you omitted "volatile" by the way. I'm familiar with the definition. Try looking up the cliche sporting phrase "mercurial player". I think you'll find it applied to a certain type of player and their temperament. Hence why I queried it in your description of Payne.

However, I agree with you - he is a mercurial player - that is my point. And as a number of other posters on here have acknowledged may not be suitable for 13 and the requirements of the role.

by Pete330v2 Tue May 27, 2014 9:47 am

I deride your views because it's simply ridiculous to consider turning away a world class player just because he can't trace a full blooded irish ancestor. It beggars belief that we've allowed utter dross to play for us in the past just because great granny was an O'Sullivan. If under the current guidlines a player is elligable and is the caliber of player that Jared Payne is then why the hell would we close the door on him. You actually say you hope he never plays for Ireland, I don't need a reason to deride a view that hopes the best players available to us never wear an Irish shirt.

by fa0019 Tue May 27, 2014 10:16 am

Schmidt isn't paid to develop rugby in Ireland. He's paid to deliver for the national team. If he improves the side, then Schmidt will add him.

I do myself believe that in the clutch moments though, mercenaries tend of fall down more than most, that they don't have enough care for the shirt, that playing for the test side is literally a job, nothing more. From that for him to get in the side, he should be far superior to the next indigenous option... at least IMO.

by SecretFly Tue May 27, 2014 10:25 am

.......................... first of all. Jared Payne will have as much right to play for Ireland when he 'qualifies' as had Richardt Strauss before him.

Strauss wears his heart on his sleeve and whilst his obvious first allegiance was to his own nation (SA) he certainly made it clear that he intended to wear the Irish jersey not with the mind of a crafty mercenary but with the same heart and sense of honour of his fellow colleagues in green. Nobody asked him to learn the Irish anthem - tough enough task even for indigenous Irish people - he did it to prove he's more than a mercenary. And he's certainly played like a wild Irishman in terms of passion when he has worn the Jersey.

So............... Payne has every right, and should be given the opportunity if considered good enough, to prove his allegiance to the shirt he would have chosen to wear. The only proving he can muster is when and if he ever plays for us. We'll demand from him the same genuine desire to fully represent US - not himself, not his personal career, not his personal goals, but the Nation he has adopted as his. Irish players (when playing in an Irish shirt) don't play for career salaries or private club bosses or owners. They play for US.

All that being said though. Pete, the whole idea of International is that it is Nations battling against each other for the honours that come with victory. That means all the shouting and crowing that goes with it, the "We're better than you...even for a day!"
When we constantly see 'best' in outside alternatives, or constantly drag in outsiders in the hope that they will be 'best' in a few years time - when we have an attitude like that and it becomes commonplace to think of project players being naturally always on the list of future potentials simply because their 'project status' seems to suggest that is their very purpose - then we risk continuously overlooking home grown players who might not know the Irish anthem themselves but will have grown up from birth and through childhood with a strong sense of who they are and who they'd love to play for.

Let's not overdo the genuflections to the outside project player who seems always tagged for greater things when in actual fact he usually plays in a full squad of 'project' indigenous players. They all want a shot at an Irish jersey and most of them have wanted an Irish jersey a lot longer than the Project players. Wink

by funnyExiledScot Tue May 27, 2014 10:37 am

It comes down solely to merit in my view. He qualifies for Ireland and therefore to me his background isn't important.

I do however query the assumption that he'll be the successor to BOD in the 13 jersey for Ireland. I've seen great things from Payne, but all from 15, and I'm yet to be convinced that he's as good in the 13 jersey. Based on what I've seen I suspect there are better options in the Ulster squad at 13, so I think it's premature to consider him at international level in that position.

Were Rob Kearney to get injured at any point, then I think Payne would have a strong claim as cover at 15 though.

by SecretFly Tue May 27, 2014 10:39 am

fa0019 wrote:Schmidt isn't paid to develop rugby in Ireland. He's paid to deliver for the national team. If he improves the side, then Schmidt will add him.

I do myself believe that in the clutch moments though, mercenaries tend of fall down more than most, that they don't have enough care for the shirt, that playing for the test side is literally a job, nothing more. From that for him to get in the side, he should be far superior to the next indigenous option... at least IMO.

Actually he is paid to develop rugby in Ireland in as much as improving the side involves increasing skillsets, fitness and general ability through the entire sphere of his influence. It might differ in some nations but the IRFU are his employers and the IRFU also own the four Provinces - meaning his hand will also weave a few spells throughout what might be considered by outsiders to be self-regulating 'Private' professional clubs. Both Schmidt and his coaches have already had stints with the Junior World Cup group, he'll have 'influencial' opinions on where certain Provinical players play in Provinces in the immediate future and that is all designed with the intention of increasing the quality of potential Ireland players into the immediate future and also longer term into a period when Schmidt might already have moved on.

Schmidt's appointment is part of an overall IRFU development strategy not simply a man-manager managing his distinct select bunch of players.

by **Biltong** Tue May 27, 2014 11:00 am

The Fly wrote:All that being said though. Pete, the whole idea of International is that it is Nations battling against each other for the honours that come with victory. That means all the shouting and crowing that goes with it, the "We're better than you...even for a day!"

Totally agree with that, but then you aren't really crowing about your own stock then, eh?

The odd player comes and goes and we think nothing of it, but eventually when a team is represented by 2, 3, 4, or even more, when we do we stop crowing?

by SecretFly Tue May 27, 2014 11:16 am

Biltong wrote:
The Fly wrote:All that being said though. Pete, the whole idea of International is that it is Nations battling against each other for the honours that come with victory. That means all the shouting and crowing that goes with it, the "We're better than you...even for a day!"

Totally agree with that, but then you aren't really crowing about your own stock then, eh?

The odd player comes and goes and we think nothing of it, but eventually when a team is represented by 2, 3, 4, or even more, when we do we stop crowing?

I am and always have been at one with you on this issue. I was just pointing out the objective reality that Payne has as much right (under current 'qualifying' conditions) to play for Ireland as Strauss had before him.

My personal views on the 'merits' of the quick buy project player system versus more time and effort being put into developing our own 'Project' young players is probably well outlined at this stage.

I say the whole idea of being able to crow about International rugby is inherent in the very indigenous nature of it as its purest. You lose that ability to appreciate the uniqueness of International above club when other peoples can begin to retort that you only beat them because you had two or three of their guys playing with you.

So International - the very concept of it - risks dying out if we continually adopt 'clubisation' !!!!! ;)tactics and weld them to International. International - in any sport - is different. It's a unique concept in today's world of constant professionalisation of virtually every sport and the contant creation of even more club v club events.

International isn't club. I do think some people do think that it should be though. And that's where the major gap is between my views and the softer views of others on 'Project' players.

by ME-109 Tue May 27, 2014 11:23 am

Spot on Fly....

by Pete330v2 Tue May 27, 2014 11:34 am

My heart always has and most likely always will agree with the purist view that anyone who plays for Ireland should be Irish through and through, my head says different. The fact is that in the professional era an international team is a lot more than a simply a sporting side. We may well have to accept the fact that the 'clubisation' is going to happen and is most probably already with is to a large extent with those running the show as sport related business along side the sport itself in it's pure form. There will always be a much stronger link to an international ethos within the IRFU for sure. We have had the machinations in place for years to ensure a predominantly 'real Irish' representation in Irish rugby. I don't see anything wrong with the odd injection of imported class when it'll help the prospects and leave the coaching team with more choice of top level players to select from. It's all very positive if a project player can do just that. Payne will and if he doesn't I'll prepare my hat for dinner.

by **rodders** Tue May 27, 2014 11:35 am

Well I suppose the reality is it could take 15 -20 years to overhaul our grass roots and club systems to make it fit for purpose and capable of producing international quality players in every position of sufficient depth to keep us competitive with the top tier nations.

Or we could manipulate the fact that certain nations have a surplus of top players and naturalize a couple here or there.

I know what I would prefer but at the same time am not going to be too happy with bottom 3 spots in the 6N for the rest of my lifetime.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Where do you draw the line - foreign coaches, overseas training camps, mixed marriages, fake grannies?

I don't know but as a small country we need to use the means at our disposal to compete with the best, within reason.

by SecretFly Tue May 27, 2014 11:56 am

rodders wrote:

I know what I would prefer but at the same time am not going to be too happy with bottom 3 spots in the 6N for the rest of my lifetime.

A tad overspun, Rodders. Wink

One or two Projects every six or seven years - fine. No problemo. Homegrown prioritised - Projects filling perhaps a hole in a tooth for a time.
Relaxing of rules to the extent that the Emerald AllBlacks win the World Cup though.......... nah, not my cup of tea. That's club.

by **Biltong** Tue May 27, 2014 12:01 pm

I can certainly understand the challenges that faces smaller nations, but the mere fact that a country like Australia have shown little intent in 18 years of Super Rugby to develop their grassroots beyond the existing system and rather pay their top players more have shown how some Unions have little quabbles in importing talent.

The issue I see is that SARU as an example do with the same revenue (close to) as the ARU the following.

Varsity rugby, Amateur rugby, Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup B division, Currie Cup A Division, Currie Cup U19, Currie Cup U21 and Super rugby.

SO it really is a question of whether you really want to develop, or take the easy way out.

Amongst the 5 Super Rugby Franchises in Australia by last count there were about 45 South Africans and New Zealanders playing for Australian Franchises.

And they have a population of over 20 million.

New Zealand, with a population smaller than Ireland, and likely a similar economy has very much the same development structures as SA.

So my question is this, do Unions use excuses to not develop their own talent and think they fool anyone with it, or do they simply not care whether we believe them or not?

by SecretFly Tue May 27, 2014 12:09 pm

They increasingly don't care whether you believe them or not. Rodders is right about professionalism/marketing/sponsorship/big business happening regardless of any of us dreaming of the purer past.

But it'll be a strange old (or new!) world that suggests we think International when all we see are more glorified Etihad Club sides fighting against Qantas or Guinness sides....and calling themselves Ireland, Australia, Scotland etc.

Strange new world indeed.

by **Notch** Tue May 27, 2014 12:11 pm

My preferred solution is that teams can name players who have qualified on residency; but only a maximum of two players in any match day 23.

by **rodders** Tue May 27, 2014 12:11 pm

I think we do produce our own talent - but in some key positions every so often the well runs dry - and I mean totally dry.

It's a chicken and egg situation. Without success there is no interest and no money and without money and interest there are no players and no success. It is hard to break that cycle and its mich easier to fix things top down than bottom up.

Hence in the past 20 years of pro rugby the focus has been on the professional game. Now the chickens are coming home to roost a bit with the ERC going down the pan the challenge is to make the game successful and sustainable at all levels - not just from academy and U-20s upwards.

by Pete330v2 Tue May 27, 2014 12:12 pm

I can't see how we could ever introduce such developmental structures in Ireland Biltong, god knows I'd love it to happen but with rugby not being anywhere near the most popular of sports in Ireland it would be finding the players / clubs to populate and sustain those structures. There's no doubting the huge disparity between the quality of player AIL level and provincial and how to reduce the quality gap is problematic to say the least.

by **rodders** Tue May 27, 2014 12:17 pm

P.S, Might I add that the IRFU and provinces/branches - whilst not being perfect have done a phenomenal job and rugby is the only true professional game in Ireland and something to be proud off.

There is a long way to go but way more right is being done than wrong, especially in the face of those FFR, PRL gobshoites intent on wrecking the game.

We are a small Union driven nation doing what we need to do to punch above our weight and doing a damn fine job too.

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