Ireland vs Scotland

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Ireland v Scotland

Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Sunday, 2 Feb 2014
Kick-off: 15:00

Referee: Craig Joubert (SARU)
Assistant referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant referee: Mike Fraser (NZR)
TMO: Carlo Damasco (FIR)

A. Squads

1. Ireland

Backs:
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster), Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster), Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster), Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster), Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster), Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster), Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht), Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster), Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster), David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster), Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster), Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster), Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster), Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *, Luke Marshall (Ballynahinch/Ulster), Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster), Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster), Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster), Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92), Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Forwards:
Rodney Ah You (Buccaneers/Connacht) *, Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster), Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster), Robin Copeland (Cardiff Blues) *, Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *, Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster), Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster), Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster), Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster), Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) *, David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster), Mike McCarthy (Leinster), Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) *, Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) *, Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster), Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster), Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster), Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster), Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster), Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster), Damien Varley (Garryowen/Munster)

* Uncapped player

2. Scotland

Forwards:
John Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Geoff Cross, David Denton, Alasdair Dickinson, Ross Ford (all Edinburgh Rugby), Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby), Ryan Grant, Jonny Gray (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Kieran Low (London Irish), Moray Low, Pat MacArthur (both Glasgow Warriors), Ross Rennie (Edinburgh Rugby) Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan), Tim Swinson and Ryan Wilson (both Glasgow Warriors).

Backs:
Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres), Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby), Stuart Hogg, Ruaridh Jackson, Sean Lamont (all Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby), Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Taylor (Saracens), Greig Tonks (Edinburgh Rugby) and Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors).

B. Head To Head

127 Played 127
57 Wins 65
65 Losses 57
5 Draws 5
203 Tries 210
104 Conversions 109
111 Penalties 131
17 Drop Goals 38
1,344 Points 1,303

C. Recent Form

24 February 2013
Scotland 12–8 Ireland

10 March 2012
Ireland 32–14  Scotland

27 February 2011
Scotland 18–21  Ireland

D. Teams

1. Ireland



15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 49
14. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 2
13. Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) 128
12. Luke Marshall (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 4
11. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 50
10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 38
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 22
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 42
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 70
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 34
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 10
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 88
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 19
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 9
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 60

Replacements:

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 30
17. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 3
18. Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
19. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster) 7
20. Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 2
21. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster) 17
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 5
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 21

* Denotes uncapped player

2. Scotland




15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 15 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Duncan Taylor (Saracens) 6 caps
11 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 82 caps, 12 tries, 60 points
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 1 try, 2 conversions, 9 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) 24 caps, 3 tries, 23 conversions, 54 penalties, 223 points
1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 71 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 23 caps
4 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Jim Hamilton (Montpellier) 50 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) CAPTAIN 60 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 17 caps

Replacements:

16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
17 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 30 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 23 caps, 1 try, 5 points
19 Richie Gray (Castres) 33 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 26 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
21 Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors) 64 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
22 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 16 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 37 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

mystiroakey wrote:Lol Guns..

Me and Fly asked to be banned in december so we could get on with something else- namely work- The mods wouldn't do it!!

I finally got away for about a month - under duress!! as I was mad that they wouldn't ban me. I think when this 6N is over - or even before - I might be away a lot longer!

GunsGerms wrote:Anyone see the abuse Notch got off some berated Scottish poster?

That guy was spoiling for a fight and Notch handled him pretty well whilst sucking up the smart-ass lines. I felt like joining in at one point but... Notch can handle himself

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Has 606v2 censored/modded itself out of existence?  This is the deadest 6N I've ever witnessed on a 606 forum (old BEEB one or this one).  There are less people contributing to the 'ye ancient old yearly war of muck and attrition' than contributes to a Connacht v Zebre Pro12 encounter.

The wheel has well and truly fell off the axle as regards rugby enthusiasm on this site.

I have to agree with this. I do like the good natured banter myself but this site is not as fun as it once was. I saw Guns get warned on the France 6 - England 0 thread for absolutely nothing (except the possibility that the Mod didn't understand the humour). Some Mods are more interested in their own power than the encouraging of a little banter and discussion.

Hope it gets better through the 6N because this really was a cracking place once.

I made a joke about deaf people which was deleted and in retrospect was probably across the line as it probably offended someone. Mods are doing a good job IMO. Lets be fair.

Yes.It offended me.Having taught deaf kids and seeing a piece on the former Scarlets number 8 Murphy who is profoundly deaf I found your post to be extremely unpleasant.I did not spot who had posted the"joke" so it was nothing personal when I flagged it up.People just need to think about what they post before pressing send.

Taffineastbourne wrote:People just need to think about what they post before pressing send.

Thinking before posting? Hmm, an original idea for us 606ers. I'll defnitely give it a go and see how I get on

SecretFly wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:People just need to think about what they post before pressing send.

Thinking before posting?  Hmm, an original idea for us 606ers.  I'll defnitely give it a go and see how I get on

I can be pretty radical if the wind is from the right direction!

If i thought before I posted I would have posted 26000 less posts

mystiroakey wrote:If i thought before I posted I would have posted 26000 less posts

No comment!   

That's hell of a lot of non-thinking there Mysti. Respect mo chara

I can totally relate to it too. I'm just glad I got up in the middle of the night and deleted most of mine in the past. Ja, they were that bad. You've only seen some the shoite that gets thro. Man.

Its all good craic when its let flow and  I think maybe the mods need to chill out a bit. We all know who the Usual Suspects are. I miss the self-moderation of an article on the old 606 V1. Really miss that. Avoids so much shoite. Just delete the posts you don't think add anything to your article.

The Mods get a break. We all do.

geoff998rugby wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Give examples of where McFadden is so bad at defending,if you leave out the Wales game where North steamrolled him I doubt you'll come up with much else.

Against Savea in the first test in NZ last summer -  4 tries down his wing. Joe Ansboro rounded him in that RWC warm up game which cost us the game in 2011 is another obvious one. His frailties are well known, especially by Gatland.

Last 6 Nations against every team but Wales,Rory Bests throwing was awful,he continued that poor form for Ulster and the Lions.Using your logic I could say he's the worst guy at throwing into a lineout that ever got a professional contract.Obviously that would be a ridiculous argument but it's no different to yours.

Slight difference Rory's was going through a bad patch which he has emerged from - has McFadden's improved his defence?

Also as George Hook put it he is delighted Rory Best is back - his throwing is not the best but the options are no better (Cronin who seems to be the number 2 number 2 is in fact far worse)
On the otherhand there are wingers available for Ireland whose defence is definitely better than McFadden

Of course he has,considering he has only really become a winger in the last 2 years he's bound to take a bit of time to adjust to the intricacies of the position.I think the fact that the only examples thrown up of his poor defending are over 18 months old give a pretty clear indication that saying he's one of the poorest defenders ever to play pro rugby is just showing a basic ignorance of the game.

Let me also make clear that I was only using the Rory Best example to highlight how stupid that statement about McFadden is,I rate him massively and think he's a top class player even if he does occasionally have off days with his throwing.

Gibson wrote:That's hell of a lot of non-thinking there Mysti. Respect mo chara

I can totally relate to it too. I'm just glad I got up in the middle of the night and deleted most of mine in the past. Ja, they were that bad. You've only seen some the shoite that gets thro. Man.

Its all good craic when its let flow and  I think maybe the mods need to chill out a bit. We all know who the Usual Suspects are. I miss the self-moderation of an article on the old 606 V1. Really miss that. Avoids so much shoite. Just delete the posts you don't think add anything to your article.

The Mods get a break. We all do.

There should also be a 'delete' button for use by people who only ever scavange around other people's threads because laziness forbids them from ever writing their own. (Moi)  In that way, anyone could actually delete the thread author himself!  Now there's anarchy to my liking!!!

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Give examples of where McFadden is so bad at defending,if you leave out the Wales game where North steamrolled him I doubt you'll come up with much else.

Against Savea in the first test in NZ last summer -  4 tries down his wing. Joe Ansboro rounded him in that RWC warm up game which cost us the game in 2011 is another obvious one. His frailties are well known, especially by Gatland.

Last 6 Nations against every team but Wales,Rory Bests throwing was awful,he continued that poor form for Ulster and the Lions.Using your logic I could say he's the worst guy at throwing into a lineout that ever got a professional contract.Obviously that would be a ridiculous argument but it's no different to yours.

Rory Best is one of the best Irish forwards of his generation, McFadden is a bit part utility back who's had a few good games so there's a bit of a difference.

That's completely irrelevant,if McFadden is one of the poorest defenders you've ever seen play pro rugby based on the few isolated examples you've provided the Best must also be one of the poorest players at throwing into a lineout,I have far more examples of Bests poor throwing than you have of McFaddens poor defending.The fact that Best is top class at all the other areas of the game mean nothing.

Again I'm just using this to show how ridiculous your original statement about McFadden is,I'd go so far as to say it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen said by any of the Irish regular posters on here and I've read an awful lot of Sín é's posts so that is really saying something.

May I redirect this thread away from petty bickering about McFadden and Best for a minute- what changes (if any do you’s see for Saturday?)

POC obviously back in if fit. My guess is that Joe will choose to drop Tuohy to the bench despite him having a bigger game than Toner last weekend.

What about 12? There seems to be a North/South divide on this shirt. Marshall didn’t do too much wrong last weekend but the Leinster partnership is tried and tested and D’arcy is playing well right now (and that’s coming from an Ulster fan).

Darce and his lovely beard are playing well now but I wouldn't drop Luke. I think Trimble did enough to keep his place but I'd like someone with a bit more line-breaking ability on the other wing with Tommy Tommy Bowe not fit. Zebo would be a welcome addition. What's the craic with Keet? Injured?

I've seen a few comments talking of how quiet BOD was but I thought it was the best he's played since the 1st Northampton game.

Paulie comes straight back in and I'd say Tuohy goes to the bench with Henderson dropping out. Aside from that I don't see many other changes.

Also how much truth is there to the Trimble and BOD animosity? I've seen them having the craic on twitter a few times. And if I fell out with all my team mates that I've had words with in training or a match then I'd have to watch the match this weekend on my own in a house in Lincoln... Oh shoite, wait...

Regarding D'arcy Marshall I think the competition is very healthy. It allows us to rotate and is the best short-term option but it stills allows us to build for the World Cup, as Marshall will have to earn that shirt. I still hope he'll be our 12 by then but D'arcy could provide an important role a la ROG to Sexton (although that could have been handled better).

D'arcy was pretty dross for a couple of seasons and has taken an awful lot of flak but fair play to him for getting back up there.

Whichever way it goes it's not going to be a call that decides the game.

I really don't get the negativity about the performance on Sunday.  There seemed an awful lot to feel positive about, that we are heading in the right direction.  If anyone thought Schmidt would turn round the worst debacle of the professional era in the first Six Nations match and take on the mantle as Malleus Scotorum then you really are a grade A mentula.  This will be a work in progress and I have no doubts there will be setbacks on the way.

But look beyond the actual result on Sunday.  Reasons to be cheerful:
- a viable tighthead replacement for Ross;
- a balanced, effective backrow that complimented each other even though more talented individuals were arguably not playing;
- Fewer occasions of aimless kicking, aided a solid kick chase game;
- Rob Kearney actually running the ball;
- good discipline with the penalty count much reduced;
- having a clear thought out plan to target the Scottish weaknesses, i.e., the rolling maul;
- Real leadership from someone not called O'Connell or O'Driscoll.

Of course it was far from perfect.  But anyone who thought it would be otherwise has either preposterous expectations, or they are rooting for an opportunity to attack Schmidt because he isn't from your province and isn't picking your provincial players.  

Of course improvements need to be made  Any team that plays with Mike Ross is handicapped by his lack or work around the pitch.  Any team will improve with the sheer presence of POC.  The fact that Tuohy and Toner look like viable internationals is encouraging given that most people would pick Ryan ahead of them if fit.  POM needs a hard working 7 to do the less fashionable stuff to help him excel in his own game.  That person should be TOD or Henry. Neither are world class in their own right, but extremely effective in their roles.  TOD proved it for Munster last season, as did Henry for Ulster and for Ireland on Sunday.  Murray's delivery was interminably slow in the first half, but he has such a clear propensity and hunger to learn and improve.  Sexton, break aside, was poor in the first half but with that break his confidence in his own ability came back and he was excellent thereafter.  Marshall and BOD were solid and distributed the ball very well.  Marshall was excellent with ball in hand in the last half an hour.  At least at 12 there is a competition for the shirt. In the back three it was great to see Kearney actually run the ball out of defence, with Trimble and Kearney showing they are decent 4th/5th/6th/7th choice wingers.  

Most importantly I saw a team who went out to win a match, not just go out and try not to lose.  There was positivity in their play, not the negativity of the past two season under Kidney.  We night not bear Wales, but we need to see if Schmidt can learn from mistakes he made in the first match and beat Gatland in the tactical battle.  Gatland had Kidney's number.  Hopefully a new coaching setup will bring much needed new ideas.

Isn't Dave Kearney ahead of McFadden at Leinster? Ergo he'd be ahead of him for Ireland.

What's the point in discussing the back three anyway? They came up against pace and power in Scotland's back three and came through without a scratch, so why should it be different against Wales? Hogg is a more potent threat than 1/2p with ball in hand, Maitland is quicker than either North or Cuthbert and Lamont is big and well... er... experienced. There is no need to change the Irish back three as it's not as if they were overworked against Scotland.

POC is obviously coming back in, so there's bound to be a change at lock. Hibbard isn't any better from the line than Best so Ireland might keep Toner, despite Tuohy otherwise outplaying him. I'd personally have Henderson on the bench as he is a great impact sub with real pace and power.

The only other question is over Marshall or D'Arcy in the centre. Marshall looks to have better defence these days, offers a kicking option and has a great pass (as demonstrated by the long pass to DKearney). However D'Arcy was Joe's first choice and with Luke putting in so much work on Sunday, reuniting Darce with BOD is probably best for the Welsh game.

Zebo would be a reasonable shout for Kearney. With the game likely to be decided by small margins, a guy with his x-factor could make the difference. Will be satisfied either way though. With Bowe and Fitzgerald both likely to be available for the England game there is some serious competition going on on the wings- a great problem to have!

GUYS!!!

Not sure how many times it has been said! The squad named is for the first two games. Nobody else has been brought in. Zebo/Gilroy/Bowe all of them are not getting in the matchday squad until they are in the 34 man squad which won't happen until after the Wales game.

Goodness me.

InBODWeTrust wrote:May I redirect this thread away from petty bickering about McFadden and Best for a minute- what changes (if any do you’s see for Saturday?)

POC obviously back in if fit. My guess is that Joe will choose to drop Tuohy to the bench despite him having a bigger game than Toner last weekend.

What about 12? There seems to be a North/South divide on this shirt. Marshall didn’t do too much wrong last weekend but the Leinster partnership is tried and tested and D’arcy is playing well right now (and that’s coming from an Ulster fan).  

I don't think there's much of a north/south divide. Most people have acknowledged that we have two quality options at 12 and  are quite objective  in who they think should start. The thing is, D'arcy's form has made him a serious contender again, just as we thought Marshall was going to leapfrog him. Marshall is playing well also, this leaves us in a really strong position. It will probably come down to Darce's familiarity with BOD, but I would be happy with either, in fact, I would probably prefer Marshall, but again, it's a coin toss.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I really don't get the negativity about the performance on Sunday.  There seemed an awful lot to feel positive about, that we are heading in the right direction.  If anyone thought Schmidt would turn round the worst debacle of the professional era in the first Six Nations match and take on the mantle as Malleus Scotorum then you really are a grade A mentula.  This will be a work in progress and I have no doubts there will be setbacks on the way.

But look beyond the actual result on Sunday.  Reasons to be cheerful:
- a viable tighthead replacement for Ross;
- a balanced, effective backrow that complimented each other even though more talented individuals were arguably not playing;
- Fewer occasions of aimless kicking, aided a solid kick chase game;
- Rob Kearney actually running the ball;
- good discipline with the penalty count much reduced;
- having a clear thought out plan to target the Scottish weaknesses, i.e., the rolling maul;
- Real leadership from someone not called O'Connell or O'Driscoll.

Of course it was far from perfect.  But anyone who thought it would be otherwise has either preposterous expectations, or they are rooting for an opportunity to attack Schmidt because he isn't from your province and isn't picking your provincial players.  

Of course improvements need to be made  Any team that plays with Mike Ross is handicapped by his lack or work around the pitch.  Any team will improve with the sheer presence of POC.  The fact that Tuohy and Toner look like viable internationals is encouraging given that most people would pick Ryan ahead of them if fit.  POM needs a hard working 7 to do the less fashionable stuff to help him excel in his own game.  That person should be TOD or Henry. Neither are world class in their own right, but extremely effective in their roles.  TOD proved it for Munster last season, as did Henry for Ulster and for Ireland on Sunday.  Murray's delivery was interminably slow in the first half, but he has such a clear propensity and hunger to learn and improve.  Sexton, break aside, was poor in the first half but with that break his confidence in his own ability came back and he was excellent thereafter.  Marshall and BOD were solid and distributed the ball very well.  Marshall was excellent with ball in hand in the last half an hour.  At least at 12 there is a competition for the shirt. In the back three it was great to see Kearney actually run the ball out of defence, with Trimble and Kearney showing they are decent 4th/5th/6th/7th choice wingers.  

Most importantly I saw a team who went out to win a match, not just go out and try not to lose.  There was positivity in their play, not the negativity of the past two season under Kidney.  We night not bear Wales, but we need to see if Schmidt can learn from mistakes he made in the first match and beat Gatland in the tactical battle.  Gatland had Kidney's number.  Hopefully a new coaching setup will bring much needed new ideas.

Great post.  

Agreed on that Hook has summarized nicely

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Again I'm just using this to show how ridiculous your original statement about McFadden is,I'd go so far as to say it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen said by any of the Irish regular posters on here and I've read an awful lot of Sín é's posts so that is really saying something.

Not really. The line out is a team effort so missed throws aren't always down to the thrower, any more than every failed scrum is down the tight head so your argument is completely bogus. By contrast one on one tackling is an individual skill, just like catching the ball, and its a skill McFadden does not possess at an acceptable level. If you don't like my statement then feic off, do your own research and rebute it with some relevant evidence - the fact that your only counter argument revolves around singling out a different player in a different position shows how one eyed you are.

If Biltong is making the effort to come on here from SA and single out McFadden's ineptitude in defence then maybe you should take notice and look a bit closer at his performances rather than start throwing your blue/green eyed prejudices around and insulting other posters.

Rodders to be fair you are exagerating a bit when it comes to McFadden. Although his defence isnt as good as Trimble who I rate really highly or even Dave Kearney who I also rate highly it isnt as bad as you make it out to be. McFadden has his limitations but is a player who is always very busy, good at finding space and making yards and has a pretty good try scoring record. My ideal pick for the wings for this game would be Trimble and Bowe but that isnt going to happen.

Other than McFadden getting bounced by North 2 years ago, I can't remember him missing a tackle badly. Bare in mind, that he was in the center that day, and if picked this weekend would be on the wing.

The Great Aukster wrote:

What's the point in discussing the back three anyway? They came up against pace and power in Scotland's back three and came through without a scratch, so why should it be different against Wales? Hogg is a more potent threat than 1/2p with ball in hand, Maitland is quicker than either North or Cuthbert and Lamont is big and well... er... experienced. There is no need to change the Irish back three as it's not as if they were overworked against Scotland.

Are those lines done for a dare??  Scotland much more dangerous than Wales at 15 and on the wings?  Well...........................  .........so be it.  I'd personally say the players mentioned are on a different planet to each other - threat-wise.

Lads, since this is the Ireland v Scotland thread we should probably take the discussion over 'ere...

https://www.606v2.com/t51632-likely-ireland-team-v-wales

SecretFly wrote: Are those lines done for a dare??  Scotland much more dangerous than Wales at 15 and on the wings?  Well...........................  .........so be it.  I'd personally say the players mentioned are on a different planet to each other - threat-wise.

But that is not a difference in the quality of the palyers more the capacity of the midfield to give them decent ball.
The Scottish midfield is cr$p but having said that I would suggest Maitland and Hogg are a bigger threat than Halpenny and Cuthbert.
They are aren't able to utilise that threat because of the inability of their team mates.

Now not saying Scotland have a better backthree overall because they have North and Scotland have Lamont but the point is worth making.

Maitland and Hogg could replace Halfpenny and Cuthbert in the Welsh team and I think it would make Wales a better team in open play (obviously Halfpenny kicking is another matter)

Mickado wrote:Other than McFadden getting bounced by North 2 years ago, I can't remember him missing a tackle badly. Bare in mind, that he was in the center that day, and if picked this weekend would be on the wing.

He was bounced by a winger though. A winger twice his size.

GunsGerms wrote:McFadden has his limitations but is a player who is always very busy, good at finding space and making yards and has a pretty good try scoring record.

Don't disagree with any of that. However he does, from what I have witnessed on numerous occasions (although clearly some others haven't) is him struggle to make one on one tackles against big powerful players. Given that Wales have probably the most powerful 3/4 line in world rugby then I don't want to see him start this game, given the other options available. That doesn't extend to every game, but specifically this one.

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Again I'm just using this to show how ridiculous your original statement about McFadden is,I'd go so far as to say it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen said by any of the Irish regular posters on here and I've read an awful lot of Sín é's posts so that is really saying something.

Not really. The line out is a team effort so missed throws aren't always down to the thrower, any more than every failed scrum is down the tight head so your argument is completely bogus. By contrast one on one tackling is an individual skill, just like catching the ball, and its a skill McFadden does not possess at an acceptable level. If you don't like my statement then feic off, do your own research and rebute it with some relevant evidence - the fact that your only counter argument revolves around singling out a different player in a different position shows how one eyed you are.

If Biltong is making the effort to come on here from SA and single out McFadden's ineptitude in defence then maybe you should take notice and look a bit closer at his performances rather than start throwing your blue/green eyed prejudices around and insulting other posters.

If you can find examples of his poor defense that aren't 18 months old I might take your argument seriously but to use another Ulster analogy I could say Jackson isn't up to international standard since he was so bad in the 2012 HC final and didn't start for Ulster until the last couple of games that season.Those examples are as relevant as yours since they happened around the same time.As it is you are just basing your opinion on old data and refusing to acknowledge that a player can improve as he gets familiar with a position,my counter picked Best as it was the first easy example that came to mind and I've just given you another in Jackson.

How about if I state that Luke Marshall is the most concussion prone player ever to play professional rugby,Declan Fitzpatrick the most injury prone,Darren Cave the slowest 13,all of these are as false and irrelevant as your statement on McFaddens defense yet you aren't man enough to climb down and admit you made ridiculous statement that you would argue against if it was made about an Ulster player,you're the biased one here.I have never claimed McFadden is a fantastic defender but is he worse than RoG,,Quade Cooper,Noel Reid,Jimmy Gopperth and up until very recently Rob Kearney.That's off the top of my head and bar Reid those are all players with international caps,maybe there are other players who don't play at such a high level with worse defense than them too.

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Are those lines done for a dare??  Scotland much more dangerous than Wales at 15 and on the wings?  Well...........................  .........so be it.  I'd personally say the players mentioned are on a different planet to each other - threat-wise.

But that is not a difference in the quality of the palyers more the capacity of the midfield to give them decent ball.
The Scottish midfield is cr$p but having said that I would suggest Maitland and Hogg are a bigger threat than Halpenny and Cuthbert.
They are aren't able to utilise that threat because of the inability of their team mates.

Now not saying Scotland have a better backthree overall because they have North and Scotland have Lamont but the point is worth making.

Maitland and Hogg could replace Halfpenny and Cuthbert in the Welsh team and I think it would make Wales a better team in open play (obviously Halfpenny kicking is another matter)

It's a difference in reality, geoff.  And that's the only thing you can prepare for and expect to meet you in the 6N.  Reality.  Scottish players are in no way a match (threat-wise) to their cousins the Welsh. They just aren't.  And anyone who knows anything about Halfpenny (try the Lions final test) knows that he can cut through sides like a knife through hot butter when he has a mind to.  His role with Wales dampens down that part of his game but it's there and I'd personally advance that when he plays it he is infinitely more lethal than Hogg.

Asore you are entitled to make every one of those statements, some have merit and I'd concur with, some I wouldn't.

However I wasn't discussing any of those players, I was making reference to a specific area of McFadden's game. We aren't going to agree.

A more recent example of his defence was Leinster v Glasgow in the Rabo SF.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I have never claimed McFadden is a fantastic defender but is he worse than RoG,,Quade Cooper,Noel Reid,Jimmy Gopperth and up until very recently Rob Kearney.

Yes he is worse from what I've seen otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement.

Secret we will have to disagree I would rather have Hogg and Maitland than 1/2penny and Cuthbert.

I just believe that in open player they have more to offer.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:McFadden has his limitations but is a player who is always very busy, good at finding space and making yards and has a pretty good try scoring record.

Don't disagree with any of that. However he does, from what I have witnessed on numerous occasions (although clearly some others haven't) is him struggle to make one on one tackles against big powerful players. Given that Wales have probably the most powerful 3/4 line in world rugby then I don't want to see him start this game, given the other options available. That doesn't extend to every game, but specifically this one.  

I wouldnt pick him to start for this one either. He could probably make an impact as a sub. Whatever happens though Jamie Roberts is about 19 stone and really mobile, North and Cuthbert are massive too, so whoever plays will have a tough time stopping them.

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I have never claimed McFadden is a fantastic defender but is he worse than RoG,,Quade Cooper,Noel Reid,Jimmy Gopperth and up until very recently Rob Kearney.

Yes he is worse from what I've seen otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement.

Fair enough I have to say I think you are as wrong as it is possible to be on any subject.

Well we won't stop them all game, Roberts will make yards and Wales will score. It's about minimizing their impact and also exploiting them in defence.

Phillips looked sluggish too so he needs to be shut down as its his ball to Roberts/North that gets them the go forward they need.

K2 did a great job against the ABs and Trimble is defensively very strong - big men don't like playing other big men and Trimble has a good track record against these guys in the league. North is rubbish under the high ball too.

I honestly believe the backline we had against Scotland is the best for this game. Isaac Boss would be the only change I'd consider.

rodders wrote:Well we won't stop them all game, Roberts will make yards and Wales will score. It's about minimizing their impact and also exploiting them in defence.

Phillips looked sluggish too so he needs to be shut down as its his ball to Roberts/North that gets them the go forward they need.

K2 did a great job against the ABs and Trimble is defensively very strong - big men don't like playing other big men and Trimble has a good track record against these guys in the league. North is rubbish under the high ball too.

I honestly believe the backline we had against Scotland is the best for this game. Isaac Boss would be the only change I'd consider.

Blitz defense is required. Put them under pressure and give them no space to get up a head of steam. This is the only way. In 2011 we used a drift defense and let them run at us with disasterous consequences.

geoff998rugby wrote:Secret we will have to disagree I would rather have Hogg and Maitland than 1/2penny and Cuthbert.

I just believe that in open player they have more to offer.

We will have to disagree (most especially about Hogg v Halfpenny in the run-around stakes).
I still say isolating players like Maitland and Hogg from the Scottish team they belong to - and therefore suggesting that the Irish players were tested to a higher standard on the wings and at 15 against Scotland than they'll get tested against Wales is stretching how far logic can go.

Maitland and Hogg are not on the Welsh team, their threat value was tied into the Scottish team they belong to and unless Wales dramatically underperform, the threat value of the Welsh players you mention will make the Irish players work much harder to keep them out. That's the reality I'm talking about. Welsh players in a Welsh team under their Welsh coach - Irish wings must be much more alert defensively.... much more so.

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Are those lines done for a dare??  Scotland much more dangerous than Wales at 15 and on the wings?  Well...........................  .........so be it.  I'd personally say the players mentioned are on a different planet to each other - threat-wise.

But that is not a difference in the quality of the palyers more the capacity of the midfield to give them decent ball.
The Scottish midfield is cr$p but having said that I would suggest Maitland and Hogg are a bigger threat than Halpenny and Cuthbert.
They are aren't able to utilise that threat because of the inability of their team mates.

Now not saying Scotland have a better backthree overall because they have North and Scotland have Lamont but the point is worth making.

Maitland and Hogg could replace Halfpenny and Cuthbert in the Welsh team and I think it would make Wales a better team in open play (obviously Halfpenny kicking is another matter)

Many thanks.Your post gave me a chuckle.How did the Lions selectors not spot what is clear to you?Imagine the carnage if they had picked a full strength Lions side!  

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:Well we won't stop them all game, Roberts will make yards and Wales will score. It's about minimizing their impact and also exploiting them in defence.

Phillips looked sluggish too so he needs to be shut down as its his ball to Roberts/North that gets them the go forward they need.

K2 did a great job against the ABs and Trimble is defensively very strong - big men don't like playing other big men and Trimble has a good track record against these guys in the league. North is rubbish under the high ball too.

I honestly believe the backline we had against Scotland is the best for this game. Isaac Boss would be the only change I'd consider.

Blitz defense is required. Put them under pressure and give them no space to get up a head of steam. This is the only way. In 2011 we used a drift defense and let them run at us with disasterous consequences.

...and a blitz requires players who can both time the shoot and make the tackle otherwise you have guys like North and Cuthbert left with space on the outside and one on one with Rob Kearney which means try time. That's why the selection is so key here, the defence did a great job on a big Scottish backline so I'd be trusting the same players.

I never though I'd say it but BOD is the defensive weak link in the current backline so his assured performance last week was a good confidence boost.

I definitely would encourage a blitz defense.

There is nothing worse you can do than stay on the gainline against big guys. They will straighten and take you over that gainline with them. If you come up and drift you leave yourselves in weak tackle positions in that you are almost tackling them as they are going past you as opposed to when you come and meet them and attempt to win a collision.

Marshall is very strong and as Gert Smal used to say, "defensively very agile".....just about get the meaning behind that one. So I like the idea of using him there. Darcy has looked good IMO though.

rodders wrote:

...and a blitz requires players who can both time the shoot and make the tackle otherwise you have guys like North and Cuthbert left with space on the outside and one on one with Rob Kearney which means try time. That's why the selection is so key here, the defence did a great job on a big Scottish backline so I'd be trusting the same players.

I never though I'd say it but BOD is the defensive weak link in the current backline so his assured performance last week was a good confidence boost.

Rodders, just going on the mood of a lot of your posts in recent days.
A question? Do you see us defending for the entire game? An awful lot of your opinions is based around defence and the players we might need to do it. If we do plan on doing a lot of it, I'll be very disappointed as I think it truly is about time we pushed Wales off our doorstep and went visiting their front door for extended periods. Offence is the best defence would be my cliched mantra. If we think too heavily about the right defensive players we'll lull ourselves back into a defensive game mindset. We all know where we were with those gameplans in the past.
A tad more positivity in the idea of attack would be welcome from Irish 606ers leading in to the game

SecretFly wrote:
Rodders, just going on the mood of a lot of your posts in recent days.  
A question?  Do you see us defending for the entire game?  An awful lot of your opinions is based around defence and the players we might need to do it.  

Fly, no absolutely not - we need to do the right things when we have the ball first and foremost. Although we haven't exactly been scoring tries for fun I'm confident that we can attack Wales up the middle with our maul and put their wings under pressure.... their midfield was exposed by Italy too.

However we will spend periods in this game defending and we know exactly what is coming at us. Phillips will attack the fringes and use first, second phase ball to Roberts and North - big men with pace, and they'll look to offload out of the tackle. If they get momentum they will score tries - small man double tackles leave us short and we'll be exposed out wide by the endless strike runners they have.

That's why I feel defence is key - that's both the system - blitzing the play makers, aggressive line speed - and the personnel who can physically nail Roberts and North etc. one on one.

I think we kinda lack a little genuine out and out attacking creativity in that Scotland team but that people are afraid of upsetting it because they feel they did a good defending job.

We need (and Schmidt certainly needs) to get a right balance. If Wales sniffs that we're one dimensional in attack with no out and out individual zeal (Zebo style) then they'll pummel us with their version and we'll tire on the job.

We have to show in this new Ireland that we're going to be creative in attack...there were a lotta loops even in the Scottish game - Wales will find things predictable.

I think the attacking game will come as the players become more familiar with the systems. Scotland was a big improvement on the Autumn I thought.

Schmidts game revolves around knowing when to commit to rucks, and the execution of clearing out with low numbers.

Murrays delivery was too laboured in the first half but I thought the attacking patterns looked good.

Defensively Scotland was a good dummy run because they have good strike runners and we handled them well.

Wales will be more cohesive in attack though and have a better back row than Scotland but I thought the general patterns we used against the Scots are reasonably similar to what we need this week - we just need to be even better at it.

Marshall and Henderson playing for Ulster on Friday so it is D'Arcy and almost certainly Tuohy on the bench

Yeah very disappointed to hear that Geoff. I think Joe was right to go with D'arcy against NZ but he's got this one wrong I think.

Marshall had an excellent game against Scotland and is much more suited to this game than D'arcy. Not only is this very poor man management, its tactically the wrong call.

Marshall was one of our weaker players IMO. Very strong in defense but couldnt cope with ball in hand.

GunsGerms wrote:Marshall was one of our weaker players IMO. Very strong in defense but couldnt cope with ball in hand.

What do you mean by couldn't cope? As in made no mistakes - 100% pass completion, no handling errors and 18 metres with the ball in heavy traffic.... coincidently the same number of metres D'arcy made against NZ with twice as much possession when he apparently had his best ever game for Ireland...