Ireland 10 vs Scotland

Surely we can't persist with ROG if Sexton doesn't make it.

More than anything it isn't fair on ROG himself... he has had it and TBH should have (internationally) retired after WC 2011 as planned. His place kicking is his only remaining string to his originally short bow.

One or two alternatives need to get time in the side as Jonny isn't invincible, and i would say better late than never.

Madigan has been going well for Leinster, is a prodigious attacking talent with an excellent running and passing game with his kicking catching up. His percentage from the tee is fairly good this season ~80%

Keatley has IMO outperformed ROG at Munster this season, has been is good form from the tee... but does not seem to be high on Deccies list of candidates and seems unlikely to make 1st choice

Jackson seems to be above the two Ians in Deccies considerations, and whilst on his day possesses a very good all round game has been lacking consistency kicking from hand and tee.

Personally I would pick Madigan with Jackson on the Bench - nothing ventured...

Sexton is out for at least 2 weeks.

From a Scottish perspective, I think ROG deserves another chance

But seriously though, I hope he doesn't get picked and one of the four above get to start.

Yeah I would like ROG to start....

In all seriousness it should be anyone but him. I never rated him when he was playing well.

It will have to be ROG. Jackson is out of sorts too and Madigan is too far down the pecking order and not a proven goal kicker.

The plus is that one of Jackson or Madigan will get a spot on the bench.

Any selection other than ROG is Interfering With Destiny. We can't have Madigan. He's good at playing rugby and everything, which is just not on.

I absolutely realise that it is pathetic and desperately unfair but I still haven't forgiven O'Gara for the 2nd Lions test.

And I'm not sure that the Make Up Sex is going to happen between ROG and all Irish supporters this time.

George Hook must be gunning for ROG for Lions...

...and the arrival of Ronan O'Gara gave the Irish kicking game more control. The substitute No 10 has his detractors, but he demonstrated yet again his mental strength.

No other team in the championship has a reserve of such quality in this crucial area.

Or else he's on the drugs.

Amazing article where he slates pretty much everyone bar O'G

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/george-hook-careless-kicking-put-ireland-on-a-hiding-to-nothing-29060386.html

George, you drunken old sod.

He praised O'Gara's mental strength (i.e., he got 2 kicks in poor conditions not having played for over a month). Would Jackson or Madigan have done the same if they came off the bench not having played for a month?

I feel sorry for ROG. A great servant to Irish rugby and whatever his weaknesses of his game he will be a true great of the game in these parts.

Mental strength though? Come on, his performance was embarrassing. From duffing his first kick to slicing one so badly it nearly went behind him, to missing an easy chance to put us 3 points behind. ROG cracked. He doesn't have the game any more and he doesn't have the ability to use the formerly excellent tactical brain. Yesterday was the only sort of game ROG should in theory be any use in- a quagmire and need for tactical kicking. His kicking was dreadful. His decision making deplorable. A really sad, sad sight. He reminded me of a boxing well past his prime fighting on with everyone but him knowing he is utterly finished at this level.

Whatever the form and strengths/weaknesses of Madigan/Jackson/Keatley, it is hard to believe that any of them would have been as abject as ROG yesterday.

Well thats rose tinted glasses because he was pretty poor at everything else.
He couldn't catch. Had trouble kicking into touch and pretty much adopted the foetal position every time there were oncoming england defenders.
Thats a fair point to raise, but if Madigan was playing maybe the lack of a handicap in open play would have given him a few more kicks at goal. Not implausible.

toml wrote:Well thats rose tinted glasses because he was pretty poor at everything else.
He couldn't catch. Had trouble kicking into touch and pretty much adopted the foetal position every time there were oncoming england defenders.
Thats a fair point to raise, but if Madigan was playing maybe the lack of a handicap in open play would have given him a few more kicks at goal. Not implausible.

Implausible because of the number of handling errors. Did you not notice Sexton's lack of success before he got injured? No attempts at goal because Ireland were stuck in their own half. What makes you think that would improve with Madigan or Jackson at OH. Sexton's kicking was also very poor. O'Gara can't be blamed either for the lack of a kick/chase game. No effort made whatsoever.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I feel sorry for ROG. A great servant to Irish rugby and whatever his weaknesses of his game he will be a true great of the game in these parts.

Mental strength though? Come on, his performance was embarrassing. From duffing his first kick to slicing one so badly it nearly went behind him, to missing an easy chance to put us 3 points behind. ROG cracked. He doesn't have the game any more and he doesn't have the ability to use the formerly excellent tactical brain. Yesterday was the only sort of game ROG should in theory be any use in- a quagmire and need for tactical kicking. His kicking was dreadful. His decision making deplorable. A really sad, sad sight. He reminded me of a boxing well past his prime fighting on with everyone but him knowing he is utterly finished at this level.

Whatever the form and strengths/weaknesses of Madigan/Jackson/Keatley, it is hard to believe that any of them would have been as abject as ROG yesterday.

Yep - he hasn't played in a month and to have to come into a game like that. If he had cracked, he wouldn't have attempted that penalty kick on 71 mins (or Heaslip wouldn't have asked him to).

Has to be Keatley, Madigan or Jackson.

Radge needs to go quietly into the night...

He was out of sorts and couldn't even make 20m on his kicks... I think he's probably been the best 10 of the last decade in HC rugby, maybe the best player, but his time has come. He's not going to be here next year, and the young guys need to step up to the plate.

I don't think anyone would have made a difference yesterday, the tactics were all wrong... Aggression of the wrong sort, attacking of the wrong sort. No control, no heads up rugby, no calm heads.

I have no real preference for which of the three gets the nod. All have HC experience, all have played in high pressure games, all have taken the big kicks and made the big plays. If we're going to beat Scotland we won't do it by kicking ball to the most attacking back 3 of the tournament. Trust me, I watch Hoggy and Maitland tear it up week after week with Warriors and they will love seeing Radge kicking it down their throats...

It is possible that Ireland will struggle with Scotland in a couple of weeks.

Heaslip is massively out of form, perhaps the burden of the captaincy is starting to show.

Sexton needed help to get of the pitch, bad for Ireland and the Lions if it is serious.

BOD was limping around.

SOB received treatment more than once.

Healy should be banned, although with the IRB citing commisioners these days who knows.

Zebo will definitly miss the game and sadly the rest of the 6N.

Scotland IMO have a real chance against this "tenderized" Irish outfit.

Sin é wrote:

toml wrote:Well thats rose tinted glasses because he was pretty poor at everything else.
He couldn't catch. Had trouble kicking into touch and pretty much adopted the foetal position every time there were oncoming england defenders.
Thats a fair point to raise, but if Madigan was playing maybe the lack of a handicap in open play would have given him a few more kicks at goal. Not implausible.

Implausible because of the number of handling errors. Did you not notice Sexton's lack of success before he got injured? No attempts at goal because Ireland were stuck in their own half. What makes you think that would improve with Madigan or Jackson at OH. Sexton's kicking was also very poor. O'Gara can't be blamed either for the lack of a kick/chase game. No effort made whatsoever.

Maybe there wouldn't have been that much improvement yesterday. But surely it would be better to have brought on a player of similar level whose career is on an upward trajectory, rather than one whose is declining sharply.

Another thing that grinds my gears is why the frak do we insist on playing a kick chase and then not have any decent chasers.... Trimble has been exemplary at this play with Ulster, yet he doesn't get a look in... Gilly for all his ability is not the safest under the high ball. We would have been far better with Fitz and Trimble on the wings! Or at least some support for Kearney!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It is possible that Ireland will struggle with Scotland in a couple of weeks.

Heaslip is massively out of form, perhaps the burden of the captaincy is starting to show.

Sexton needed help to get of the pitch, bad for Ireland and the Lions if it is serious.

BOD was limping around.

SOB received treatment more than once.

Healy should be banned, although with the IRB citing commisioners these days who knows.

Zebo will definitly miss the game and sadly the rest of the 6N.

Scotland IMO have a real chance against this "tenderized" Irish outfit.

They certainly do have a chance. Ireland will need to get their tactics right... hopefully the weather will do what deccie wants it to do.

Healy will get a decent ban alright, now if his name was Hartley on the other hand...

ROG just looks like a guy with one foot in retirement and has for the last 2 seasons.

He's just a shadow of even the super sub who came on against England in 2011 and he was past his prime then.

His reflexes are gone and his famed kicking game has long deserted him. His attempts to shift the ball on were born out of panic and he looked like a rabbit in the headlights at times.

No idea what game Sin and George were watching but it wasn't the one I was. ROG was fantastic in his prime but he's become the Evander Holyfield of Irish rugby and is just embarrassing himself now.

I don't blame him though, rather the coaches that are picking him.

toml wrote:

Sin é wrote:

toml wrote:Well thats rose tinted glasses because he was pretty poor at everything else.
He couldn't catch. Had trouble kicking into touch and pretty much adopted the foetal position every time there were oncoming england defenders.
Thats a fair point to raise, but if Madigan was playing maybe the lack of a handicap in open play would have given him a few more kicks at goal. Not implausible.

Implausible because of the number of handling errors. Did you not notice Sexton's lack of success before he got injured? No attempts at goal because Ireland were stuck in their own half. What makes you think that would improve with Madigan or Jackson at OH. Sexton's kicking was also very poor. O'Gara can't be blamed either for the lack of a kick/chase game. No effort made whatsoever.

Maybe there wouldn't have been that much improvement yesterday. But surely it would be better to have brought on a player of similar level whose career is on an upward trajectory, rather than one whose is declining sharply.

You seriously think that it would be good for Jackson or Madigan to throw them into the middle of that bearing in mind neither of them are particuarly good at place kicking (and that was the only way either team were going to score yesterday)?

Yep, or just keep going with ROG and never try an alternative no matter how terrible he is. He may as well have been an NFL kicker yesterday coming on only for the 3 pointers. By 65 mins yesterday I just wanted murray to stop passing to him and anyone else to come to 1st receiver

rodders wrote:ROG just looks like a guy with one foot in retirement and has for the last 2 seasons.

He's just a shadow of even the super sub who came on against England in 2011 and he was past his prime then.

His reflexes are gone and his famed kicking game has long deserted him. His attempts to shift the ball on were born out of panic and he looked like a rabbit in the headlights at times.

No idea what game Sin and George were watching but it wasn't the one I was. ROG was fantastic in his prime but he's become the Evander Holyfield of Irish rugby and is just embarrassing himself now.

I don't blame him though, rather the coaches that are picking him.

If you are not playing, your reflexes go. No doubt he could do a David Humphreys on it and refuse to bench . Fairplay to him, he doesn't.

If you kick possesion away to Maitland, Hogg and Visser I reckon you'll lose points. It's been a while since Scotland can say we posses danger men in the backs but it is true this time.

Ireland's best chance is to strangle Scotland up front like England did. Make the breakdown their own and Starve Scotland of quick ball and Ireland will win.

However It has been mentioned in the pass that The Scottish pack is a match for anyone, apart from the England game I can't see that has changed.

It'll be a cracker in a couple of weeks.

Come on Sin, did you think O'Gara had a good game yesterday?

Or did his nearly missed touchfinder, two kicks to touch that made about a total of 15m and his rabbit in the headlights act in our own 22 not convince you that he's past it?!

Will O'gara Get game time next week for Munster? Or will Kidders write him a note in case he gets injured

ROG looked really past it. I can't think any reasonable Irish fan would want him to start the next game.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Come on Sin, did you think O'Gara had a good game yesterday?

Or did his nearly missed touchfinder, two kicks to touch that made about a total of 15m and his rabbit in the headlights act in our own 22 not convince you that he's past it?!

No, I don't think he had a good game. But most the other 20 odd players involved didn't either and they are getting regular gametime and are match fit. Sexton was pretty poor when he was on as well.

I've be very happy to see Paddy Jackson or Ian Madigan starting when they are up to it. So far, I don't think they are.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:ROG looked really past it. I can't think any reasonable Irish fan would want him to start the next game.

No, most don't. We don't want Paddy Jackson or Madigan to start either because they are a long way off being ready for it yet. Murray is a long way of Ruan Pienaar in game control to carry Paddy Jackson and Madigan isn't playing enough at 10.

The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

The irony of that comment.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

Totally creased myself

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Come on Sin, did you think O'Gara had a good game yesterday?

Or did his nearly missed touchfinder, two kicks to touch that made about a total of 15m and his rabbit in the headlights act in our own 22 not convince you that he's past it?!

No, I don't think he had a good game. But most the other 20 odd players involved didn't either and they are getting regular gametime and are match fit. Sexton was pretty poor when he was on as well.

I've be very happy to see Paddy Jackson or Ian Madigan starting when they are up to it. So far, I don't think they are.

Aw come on Sin, Drico had probably not slept, O'Brien and Earls hadn't trained all week and they all did well. Or as well as you can when the gameplan is completely wrong, but the man who was brought on supposedly fit the gameplan correctly, according to the Holy Left Hook and his cronies on RTÉ. Yet he still couldn't make anything of it.

Trust me, Radge is the wrong choice for Murrayfield. Henry needs to play too. Harley made an absolute nuisance of himself come ruck time vs Italy, and we can't rely on Best to do it alone.

My team for Scotland, assuming Sexton and Healy are out/banned.

1. Court 2. Best 3. Ross 4. McCarthy 5. Ryan 6. O'Brien 7. Henry 8. Heaslip 9. Murray 10. Jackson 11. Fitzgerald 12. L Marshall/D'Arcy 13. O'Driscoll 14. Gilroy 15. Kearney
16. Cronin 17. Kilcoyne 18. Fitzpatrick 19. Henderson 20. O'Mahony 21. P Marshall 22. Madigan 23. Earls

Luke Marshall to come in if fit, and he may be as he played the whole of the match on Friday night...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

How could he be practising that in training. Its laughable that you would compare a backrower to an outhalf.

The only thing we can be sure of at this stage is that Ronan is not up to it anymore. The other three options aren't proven hut they will remain so until they are given the chance. Clearly kidney sees Jackson as next in line and in Jacksons only start in green we thumped a dreadful Fiji team.

Players like the aformentioned 10's, Luke Marshall, Iain Henderson need to come in now because they offer as much if not more than the 30 somethings they would replace and unlike the older generation they will actually benefit from the experience.

Kidney will be gone after the tournament now though which is a positive as things are just massively stale at this stage

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

How could he be practising that in training. Its laughable that you would compare a backrower to an outhalf.

Come on Sin, is the bread and butter of any out half their kicking? And wouldn't they practice it every day? Yet why did it look like Radge hadn't kicked a ball in a year? Look at O'Driscoll when he came back. Hadn't played in Green for about 9 months and pulls out a performance like last week. He'd played 2 games before that? Radge has been playing all year with Munster and hasn't put in a single performance!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

Sin é wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Come on Sin, did you think O'Gara had a good game yesterday?

Or did his nearly missed touchfinder, two kicks to touch that made about a total of 15m and his rabbit in the headlights act in our own 22 not convince you that he's past it?!

No, I don't think he had a good game. But most the other 20 odd players involved didn't either and they are getting regular gametime and are match fit. Sexton was pretty poor when he was on as well.

I've be very happy to see Paddy Jackson or Ian Madigan starting when they are up to it. So far, I don't think they are.

Aw come on Sin, Drico had probably not slept, O'Brien and Earls hadn't trained all week and they all did well. Or as well as you can when the gameplan is completely wrong, but the man who was brought on supposedly fit the gameplan correctly, according to the Holy Left Hook and his cronies on RTÉ. Yet he still couldn't make anything of it.

Trust me, Radge is the wrong choice for Murrayfield. Henry needs to play too. Harley made an absolute nuisance of himself come ruck time vs Italy, and we can't rely on Best to do it alone.

My team for Scotland, assuming Sexton and Healy are out/banned.

1. Court 2. Best 3. Ross 4. McCarthy 5. Ryan 6. O'Brien 7. Henry 8. Heaslip 9. Murray 10. Jackson 11. Fitzgerald 12. L Marshall/D'Arcy 13. O'Driscoll 14. Gilroy 15. Kearney
16. Cronin 17. Kilcoyne 18. Fitzpatrick 19. Henderson 20. O'Mahony 21. P Marshall 22. Madigan 23. Earls

Luke Marshall to come in if fit, and he may be as he played the whole of the match on Friday night...

O'Mahony has been going well> Maybe move Jamie to the pine and POM to 8

I'm not convinced our backrow is right but I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't see Henry coming in unless you are going to give O'Brien complete license to carry. Henderson definitely needs to bench. Heaslip is probably perform the least from the backrow but he is captain. I think with Henry and Henderson on the bench we at least would have the option to change things

Jamie won't be dropped. O'Mahony was anonymous on Sunday... Did nothing of note. O'Brien got stuck in and Heaslip at least tried... Poor leadership I'll admit but he tried.

McCarthy is lucky too although he got shafted with slow ball a few times and ended up getting stand-still ball from Murray/Radge/Sexton...

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

Sin é wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Come on Sin, did you think O'Gara had a good game yesterday?

Or did his nearly missed touchfinder, two kicks to touch that made about a total of 15m and his rabbit in the headlights act in our own 22 not convince you that he's past it?!

No, I don't think he had a good game. But most the other 20 odd players involved didn't either and they are getting regular gametime and are match fit. Sexton was pretty poor when he was on as well.

I've be very happy to see Paddy Jackson or Ian Madigan starting when they are up to it. So far, I don't think they are.

Aw come on Sin, Drico had probably not slept, O'Brien and Earls hadn't trained all week and they all did well. Or as well as you can when the gameplan is completely wrong, but the man who was brought on supposedly fit the gameplan correctly, according to the Holy Left Hook and his cronies on RTÉ. Yet he still couldn't make anything of it.

Seems BOD did get sleep. Earls was rusty the week before because he too was only coming back. They all played last week. O'Gara hasn't played a minute in the last month.

Trust me, Radge is the wrong choice for Murrayfield. Henry needs to play too. Harley made an absolute nuisance of himself come ruck time vs Italy, and we can't rely on Best to do it alone.

Ireland had most the possession, they just kept turning it over. I don't recall a huge improvement in Ireland's performance when Henry came on against Wales or England (though I wouldn't have a problem with him starting against Scotland, but they suggest he is some sort of messiah is wrong).

My team for Scotland, assuming Sexton and Healy are out/banned.

1. Court 2. Best 3. Ross 4. McCarthy 5. Ryan 6. O'Brien 7. Henry 8. Heaslip 9. Murray 10. Jackson 11. Fitzgerald 12. L Marshall/D'Arcy 13. O'Driscoll 14. Gilroy 15. Kearney
16. Cronin 17. Kilcoyne 18. Fitzpatrick 19. Henderson 20. O'Mahony 21. P Marshall 22. Madigan 23. Earls

Luke Marshall to come in if fit, and he may be as he played the whole of the match on Friday night...[/quote]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

I don't understand the pro-ROG argument.

1) Other players are not up to it
2) We must continue to play ROG

It has to ignore 3) ROG has demonstrated he himself is not up to it. The only case to be made is about place kicking.

Keatley has a kicking percentage above 80%, Madigan kicked 6/6 last time out for Leinster and Jackson had a high place kicking percentage earlier in the season- I'm surprised that Jackson is our 3rd choice given he hasn't been kicking since he picked up an injury he's been carrying and the responsibility was handed to Pienaar.

I think it is time to give someone else- anyone else- a shot.

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Why not? ROG has been a great servant for Ireland but is now holding the rest of the team back. The clue to Hookys posting style is in his name, he exaggerates for comic effect, but the kernel of his point is ROG is no longer good enough. His would be successors may not yet be good enough but they never will if they are not given a shot. They must be allowed to grow into the role. At some point you have to take a deep breath and give a young player a chance.

toml wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

Totally creased myself

Feic thats the funniest comment in 606 history, nearly fell off my seat!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing sadder than ROG's performance is the defence offered in here and trying to turn it into a provincial mud slinging match. If ROG was a horse they wouldn't even put him into a Findus crispy pancake he is that past it. He isn't good enough for Munster let alone Ireland. Every match he plays will only diminish what a great player he once was. The conditions on Sunday were made for ROG and he utterly failed. He was embarrassing to watch. Saying he hasn't played in a month is just a very sad excuse. Is he really such a poor player that that is an adequate excuse? Players like Stephen Ferris for example don't play for a year, pull on a green shirt and are exceptional. No, ROG has been training away and even if his match reading was off there was no excuse for the terrible, terrible kicking. He'd be practicing that every day in training. He couldn't do the basics and when the pressure was on the put Ireland just 3 points behind he cracked.

Madigan/Jackson/Keatley could not have done any worse.

How could he be practising that in training. Its laughable that you would compare a backrower to an outhalf.

Come on Sin, is the bread and butter of any out half their kicking? And wouldn't they practice it every day? Yet why did it look like Radge hadn't kicked a ball in a year? Look at O'Driscoll when he came back. Hadn't played in Green for about 9 months and pulls out a performance like last week. He'd played 2 games before that? Radge has been playing all year with Munster and hasn't put in a single performance!

O'Driscoll has played a couple of games before last week. O'Gara hasn't been playing all year. He got injured in the first HC game against Racing at about 30 mins (leg injury not good for an outhalf as they can't practice their kicking). He has been playing catch-up since then.

Outhalf is the one position in the team that you need to be on top of your game. Even though BOD was fantastic last week, I seem to recall some poor kicking from him.

Additionally i would say all of the 3 younger alternatives are better than Scotlands 10s so why not?

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The irony of that comment.

Can you please quote for me in this thread where I have attacked players or made snide comments based their province.

I'm pretty sure Keatley is from Munster too and I'd have zero problem with him starting the next match for Ireland.

Keatley is from Dublin, so is an adopted Munsterman.

If its not provincial rivalry what fuels your vitriolic diatribes about ROG? It can't be just a player playing poorly fueling those snide comments.

Thanks for your insightful comments into my own brain. I think I'm better judge of what I think than you. I love ROG. I think he is second only to BOD in great Irish players of the modern era. I mean great, not good or decent. Great. In his prime he won us games single handedly. But his prime was four years ago and his dreadful performances recently make that seem even longer ago. He is not even a shell of his former self, he's a empty husk. The guy is 35 obviously he isn't as good as he once was. But he is now embarrassing. His decision making in the autumn was a shambles. His performances for Munster have been terrible. And now, in a game effectively set up in every way for 'classic' ROG he utterly failed in every respect. Even if he is slow, his distribution is not as good, his reflexes are slower and his defense worse than ever, he is an outhalf. He should be able to kick. ROG could not kick out of hand at all. It was embarrassing to watch. He scuffed his first kick. He sliced one at a 90 degree angle. When the pressure really was on his he choked and misses a simple kick at goal. ROG of 2009 would never have missed that. ROG of 2009 would have kicked the corners and driven us up the pitch even if the chase game wasn't that great. ROG would have won us that match, a match we wouldn't have deserved to win. Instead he was truly terrible. I have been thinking about when I have honestly seen such an individually abject performance in a green shirt in the professional era. I genuinely can't think of one.

I'm not angry or bitter or anything like that at his selection. My overwhelming feeling is pure sadness at watched a once great player diminish his international legacy on a regular basis.

I agree that if we're playing both Harley and Brown, you guys really need POM and Henry to play well and preferably even have both on the field at the same time (although with SOB and Jamie, I can't see how that's going to work).

Notch wrote:I don't understand the pro-ROG argument.

1) Other players are not up to it
2) We must continue to play ROG

It has to ignore 3) ROG has demonstrated he himself is not up to it. The only case to be made is about place kicking.

Keatley has a kicking percentage above 80%, Madigan kicked 6/6 last time out for Leinster and Jackson had a high place kicking percentage earlier in the season- I'm surprised that Jackson is our 3rd choice given he hasn't been kicking since he picked up an injury he's been carrying and the responsibility was handed to Pienaar.

I think it is time to give someone else- anyone else- a shot.

You need to look at Keatley's performance in high pressure games (HCup). His kicking percentages drop to 40%.
Keatley is not viewed as the long-term future at outhalf in Munster*, so I doubt he is in with a shout for Ireland which just goes to show how much you all know.

*At a Q&A in Munster, Penney was asked about where he saw Hanrahan going. He said that he planned to play him along side ROG at 12 for a while, then move him to 10 (he mentioned this was the route used to develop Dan Carter). No mention whatsoever of Keatley being in the picture at outhalf.

From a Scots perspective I think we could get to Paddy Jackson. He' can play really well one week but then struggle the next, and I don't think he'd like playing with D'Arcy as much as with Paddy Wallace, so from our perspective I think Jackson would be our best bet.

ROG has kicked us out of games on too many occassions for me to want him starting, and Madigan looks a bit handy for me.

I've seen Keatley play against Edinburgh a couple of times this season but it's hard to judge, Edinburgh make every opposition player look world class.