Wales v Italy

First topic message reminder :

Should be announced soon, just making a preliminary thread. I think the squad picks itself, doubt Warbs will start.

Wales Online predict -

Probable Wales team: L Halfpenny; A Cuthbert, J Roberts, S Williams, G North; R Priestland, M Phillips; P James, R Hibbard, A Jones; AW Jones, L Charteris; D Lydiate, J Tipuric, T Faletau



Actual Wales team

Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues); Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), George North (Northampton Saints); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro); Paul James (Bath), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, capt), Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Toby Faletau (NG Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Andrew Coombs (NG Dragons), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), James Hook (Perpignan), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

I'm still struggling to find the Italian team lineup...

Right, found this

Michele Rizzo  
Leonardo Ghiraldini  
Martin Castrogiovanni
Quintin Geldenhuys
Marco Bortolami
Alessandro Zanni  
Mauro Bergamasco
Sergio Parisse  
Edoardo Gori  
Tommy Allan
Leonardo Sarto
Alberto Sgarbi  
Michele Campagnaro
Angelo Esposito
Luke McLean
Davide Giazzon  
Alberto De Marchi    
Lorenzo Cittadini  
Joshua Furno      
Francesco Minto    
Tobias Botes  
Luciano Orquera    
Tomasso Iannone

Sorry Id read someone moaning earlier there wasnt a lock on the bench.

Think some people don't class him as one, as he's converted from backrow. He's been a good enough lock for a couple of seasons now though.

It could have been me grumbling, sounds like me. I would have preferred to see Coombs as backrow / emergency lock cover, and Ball as a specialist lock cover, especially against a team that will bring big hard forwards.

That said if Lydiate's misses does give birth, and he does stay out in France, then I guess that is what will happen.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Sorry Id read someone moaning earlier there wasnt a lock on the bench.

That was me Pete

Andrew Coombs (correct me if I am wrong Dragon fans, but this is what I have been told by my Welsh boyos) that Coombs is a flanker come No:8 come Lock and he has been playing blindside more than lock this season.

I see Coombs as a utility player bordering on a backrow forward rather than an international lock as opposed to say Ian Evans, AWJ, Charteris or Jake Ball who has been the best lock within the regional set up this season.

Hence Wales have made a selection faux pas with no specialist lock on the bench, as it is you really have two flankers on the bench, one who can convert to lock if needed

Pretty sure Coombs mostly plays at lock - hes done so before for Wales and did very well I reckon

munkian wrote:Pretty sure Coombs mostly plays at lock - hes done so before for Wales and did very well I reckon

He has played every time at lock for Wales and done well, but I believe his background is blindside flanker

Right so the question :

If it were a specialist lock who would it be.

Answer : The kid Ball.

Is it controversial hes left out? Doesnt sound it to me.

You're wrong yes. Coombs played blindside in one game (Mogliano away) and has been playing lock for at least two seasons (plus has proven he can step up to international level already). The form comment is a little questionable, seeing as evidently you haven't seen much of him, or you'd know he was a lock all the time (for at least two seasons as I've stated). Coombs' performances have been fine, especially in the derbies and deserves a place in the 23.

MOTM vs Scarlets too mind   

Don't know why Priestland is in the squad let alone starting other than that good team selection. I feel Samson should be on the bench.

My assistant at work is going to be wearing sack cloth and ashes and eating a lot of crow if Italy do win, he has Wales by 20 plus.

Well like so many of the Welsh team he was born and raised in England and therefore views the land of his fathers with rose tinted glasses. He openly admits he would not want to live there.

Risca Rev wrote:Warburton should be with the Blouse this weekend. What happens if Lydiate or Tipuric go down in first five minutes?

Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think he can be with the Blues this weekend under a central contract, he is effectively clubless now.

Isn't that for next season, as he's still Blues contracted till the end of this?

Warbs contract with Blues doesn't expire until the summer, but still:

BBC wrote:Warburton's salary will be paid by the WRU but he will continue to play for Cardiff Blues and will be released for games outside his Wales duties at no cost to the region

It ain't rocket science like.

Risca Rev wrote:You're wrong yes. Coombs played blindside in one game (Mogliano away) and has been playing lock for at least two seasons (plus has proven he can step up to international level already). The form comment is a little questionable, seeing as evidently you haven't seen much of him, or you'd know he was a lock all the time (for at least two seasons as I've stated). Coombs' performances have been fine, especially in the derbies and deserves a place in the 23.

Cheers Rev.

I think he has done well when representing Wales so agree with you there.

I do believe by all accounts (not my view) but whenever I have watched live games, watched highlights, listened to commenters, or read the press that Ball has been outstanding in both the Rabo and the HC in what is a generally disappointing Scarlets side, and is the form player bar none of the Welsh locks that is. I cannae recall him playing this season I have noticed Sidoli and Adam Jones playing some decent games but not Coombs.

Coombs was the find of the season last year. I think he is the perfect Ryan Jones bench/replacement lock/6 when the great man finally goes.

Right so the question :

If it were a specialist lock who would it be.

Answer : The kid Ball.

Is it controversial hes left out? Doesnt sound it to me.

For people who haven't seen Ball, his game is very similar to that of Alyn Wyn Jones. He along with Samson Lee have come through and gave us the platform and grunt that our pack has lacked for so many years.
It is  a shame he isn't on the bench, I would have put him there because he has been great all season and Coombs has been in and out with injuries. But I haven't seen Coombs play much this season which proves that I am probably being biased.
Anyway Coombs has proved he can step up, look at his stats from last year. He was one of the best players we had in the Six Nations last year. I have no doubt in him what so ever. This is Jake's first call up as well I guess, he will get his shot

I certainly dont think its controversial leaving out an uncapped player

No problems by the sounds for Dan Lydiate's baby. Guess he'll fly back Thursday evening.

Just thinking about the italians and chatting to a few friends in Treviso and they are thinking along the lines of

15 McLean
14 Venditti
13 Campagnaro
12 Bergamasco
11 Iannone
10 Allan
9 Tebaldi
1 Rizzo
2 Ghiraldini
3 Castrogiovanni
4 Geldenhuys
5 Bernabo
6 Zanni
5 Bergamasco
8 Parisse (capt)

Thats not a bad side. Great backrow, decent half backs too.

Italian half backs are second rate and the team is old.

Great backrow? Bergamasco will need a hip replacement at half time!

Parisse is class though

There's only 2 in the backrow according to those Treviso fans   

Dan Lydiate set to return to squad

munkian wrote:There's only 2 in the backrow according to those Treviso fans   

Yeah I was thinking that, Bergamasco is getting on so they are moving him to lock where pace isn't as crucial as openside (or scrum half).

munkian wrote:Dan Lydiate set to return to squad

 
   Congratulations to Lydiate, his partner Nia, and the baby  

Is Biggar injured? I'd be frustrated if I were a Welsh fan with Gatland's persistence in Priestland. I wouldn't get abusive about it but I do feel he simply does not warrant selection. I must admit I don't know about club form but from what I've seen of the two aforementioned players, I do know who I feel is the only one suited to test rugby. It comes down to temperament and Priestland does not have that.

I despair when I see Hook's name on the reserve sheet. He is a classic example of how the word utility is a dirty word. I really don't know what position he is covering and I get the feeling Gatland has him covering 10, 12 and 15 and that to me sums up where his career has ended up: covering for eventualities. That's when a utility player finally serves no purpose. A bench player has to be there because he adds something to the team and not because he fills a potential void.

Priestland has played well in the Heino, Biggar has been good to but then he's been playing behind a stable pack.

Biggar is a steady player, Priestland can probably get the backs going better

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:Dan Lydiate set to return to squad

   Congratulations to Lydiate, his misses and the baby   

Very difficult to congratulate a player on the failed attempts to make a baby. How do we quantify that? Better to just concentrate on the one lucky sperm that found its way through. It's a bit like moral victories. Far better to concentrate on the actual games you win.  

PS I have already anticipated comments about 1995, 1999 and 2007...   

munkian wrote:Priestland has played well in the Heino, Biggar has been good to but then he's been playing behind a stable pack.

Biggar is a steady player, Priestland can probably get the backs going better

That's the key for me munkian. Sometimes you don't need a player to create opportunities. You have players like North and Halfpenny (if directed to do so) who can do that for you. Sometimes what you need is a player not to make mistakes. Priestland may well be capable of sparking things but he is also sadly capable of giving up opportunities. He is a poor man's Quade Cooper in that regard for me who hasn't done enough at test level to recitify his failings and hasn't done enough of the good stuff to justify Gatland's obviuous faith in him.

kia - fixed that post, funny how bad somethings can come across, just by missing out a word or punctuation mark.   

As for Priest and Biggar, I have a feeling Gatland knows that Rhys sparked this backline into playing some great rugby during the 6N GS season, where as Biggar controlled it during a scrappy 6Ns championship win. Also I think he knows, no matter what he says, that this is only Italy and Biggar can be brought in for Ireland if Rhys goes off kilter.

But people like North, Roberts etc need ball to run on to to be effective and break the gain line - Priestland passes much flatter.

If they are both in form then they are 2 great options to have.

And to be fair to Priestland - he had a great run in the RWC - Halfpenny has as many Welsh defeats as as him.

I knew what you meant Scarlet, just in a playful mood!   

Passing is only one way to break the gainline munkian. It's about assessing your best options and taking them - kicking, passing, turning back inside, taking the tackle, running - and this decision taking becomes easier when a player has confidence. Priestland is a confidence player and when he's on song he's a weapon. But when he's not, he's his own worst enemy as he can't forget about mistakes like Biggar can. It wears him down and in the autumn internationals I saw nothing to suggest that he is anywhere near that level of confidence to justify his selection. I accept Italy is a good idea to see where he's at but if you doubt him in the big games then that's an opportunity you miss out on for biggar to get match fit as well.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I knew what you meant Scarlet, just in a playful mood!   

Passing is only one way to break the gainline munkian. It's about assessing your best options and taking them - kicking, passing, turning back inside, taking the tackle, running - and this decision taking becomes easier when a player has confidence. Priestland is a confidence player and when he's on song he's a weapon. But when he's not, he's his own worst enemy as he can't forget about mistakes like Biggar can. It wears him down and in the autumn internationals I saw nothing to suggest that he is anywhere near that level of confidence to justify his selection. I accept Italy is a good idea to see where he's at but if you doubt him in the big games then that's an opportunity you miss out on for biggar to get match fit as well.

I think you will find he has had a lot of professional help over the last twelve months, and you can see it in his demeanour, even his mien is now totally different. He might not be at Biggars confident level, perhaps he never will be...... but he is a different animal now.

The AIs certainly revealed that compared to his dark moments twelve months prior, he was on the bench for two games and did enough to suggest he offers an attacking variation that is natural and something that Biggar or Hook can bring into the game. Also remember he has had a serious injury to contend with and had only just come back from that  after months out prior to the AIs.

Personally in the big games I would start Biggar and bring Priestland on second half.

Its a balance between a massive talent at creating opportunities and managing a game, and that's the crux

I think people over estimate Biggar's self confidence. You can seem in some games, Ireland last year, that he was trying too hard and making mistakes, those got to him and he went more into his shell playing a more closed down, low risk style. Rhys makes a mistake, and loses confidence, but he still tries to keep playing his high risk stuff, and IMO that just makes it seem worse.

Like I said flyhalf, I haven't seen him in club games so can't comment there. I'm commenting on the games I've seen him at international level. I can concede that Gatland may want to see where he's at and this is the game to introduce him to find out where he stands now. But I consider Biggar to be unlucky to have played consistently well in the 6N in Priestland's absence and not even now be part of the running now that Priestland is back. Players need game time at test level and if you take a player out of too many games, when you bring him back you invariably will see him struggle.

Like you say, it's a difficult balance but I don't think Gatland's getting it right at the moment.

Scarlet, think of the France game where he wasn't having the greatest of matches but pulled off the game changing kick at the end to claim victory for Wales. I don't think Biggar goes into his shell, rather he is not as high risk as Priestland like running it back against Australia just before the end of the first half.

Well without disrespect to Italy, if they were going to try Priestland out, better it be at home vs Italy.

Looks like RP is getting his excuses in early, just in case he does have a howler: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25936685

I do like the high risk stuff he plays, he just doesn't know when and when not to play that way. RWC 2011, he did, and the backs flourished. Against Quins it was evident he is still in erratic form.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25920395

  

Since when has Guscott got it right?

  

The Saint wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25920395

  

Just feels like more pressure being put on us to be honest.

Scrumpy wrote:Since when has Guscott got it right?

  

Last year

 

I never knew Guscott was so popular in Wales.

Tell you what you can keep him and well have Jiffy.


NO WAIT I DIDN'T MEAN IT!!!!!!

Guscotts column is hilarious now in its desperation to pander to welsh sensibilities. Every week there has to be a token "pro welsh" comment.
Id love to see Brian Moores if he did one for the Beeb.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Like I said flyhalf, I haven't seen him in club games so can't comment there. I'm commenting on the games I've seen him at international level. I can concede that Gatland may want to see where he's at and this is the game to introduce him to find out where he stands now. But I consider Biggar to be unlucky to have played consistently well in the 6N in Priestland's absence and not even now be part of the running now that Priestland is back. Players need game time at test level and if you take a player out of too many games, when you bring him back you invariably will see him struggle.

Like you say, it's a difficult balance but I don't think Gatland's getting it right at the moment.

Scarlet, think of the France game where he wasn't having the greatest of matches but pulled off the game changing kick at the end to claim victory for Wales. I don't think Biggar goes into his shell, rather he is not as high risk as Priestland like running it back against Australia just before the end of the first half.

Gatland tslked about having a squad big enough to select players tactically for different games this six nations.

We may see Biggar in Dublin next week in the ten shirt.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Guscotts column is hilarious now in its desperation to pander to welsh sensibilities. Every week there has to be a token "pro welsh" comment.
Id love to see Brian Moores if he did one for the Beeb.

That's an oxymoron   

Ok, instead of just labelling it 'pro Welsh' and writing it off completely why don't you actually discuss what points you disagree with ?

I'm not even sure what 'pro Welsh' means ?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Saint wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25920395

  

Just feels like more pressure being put on us to be honest.

I posted it to get some nibbles. I got what I wanted.

Guscott is pretty awful at predictions. In spite of making some good points in that article he fails to recognise that most of the team are carrying injuries or just coming back from injury. I think people also underestimate how good Ian Evans and Bradley Davies have been for us, absolute wrecking balls.

Saint,

Interesting you suggest that most of the team is limping ...beyond warburton I wasnt aware of that although the Lions hangover and wear and tear on the key guys has to be a factor to be considered.
The general point Guscott make though ... that Wales have a settled side who know what they are doing is a big one. These guys for the most part are proven performers and know their system and each other. France and England are very raw. The other challenge is Ireland who sit somewhere between.
The trump cards for Wales are their star players and that they are actually a team rather than a bunch of blokes meeting up to play rugby. They have the winning mentality in this competition.

If they dont win the tournament is more likely to be because of what you allude to, players being worn down and off their game, than any complete team performances from France or England.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Like I said flyhalf, I haven't seen him in club games so can't comment there. I'm commenting on the games I've seen him at international level. I can concede that Gatland may want to see where he's at and this is the game to introduce him to find out where he stands now. But I consider Biggar to be unlucky to have played consistently well in the 6N in Priestland's absence and not even now be part of the running now that Priestland is back. Players need game time at test level and if you take a player out of too many games, when you bring him back you invariably will see him struggle.

Like you say, it's a difficult balance but I don't think Gatland's getting it right at the moment.

Scarlet, think of the France game where he wasn't having the greatest of matches but pulled off the game changing kick at the end to claim victory for Wales. I don't think Biggar goes into his shell, rather he is not as high risk as Priestland like running it back against Australia just before the end of the first half.

I agree with you kia, I think that Biggar was one of the best players in last seasons 6Ns and certainly the best 10....and I was flabbergasted when he was overlooked for the Lions tour.

The thing with Dan is people think is some overconfident cocky player who thinks he has some god given right to be the Welsh 10, which is nothing further from the truth. The young man is overly loyal to his region even though he was courted by many teams when he was out of contract, never hear him moaning to the press about how unsure his future is "Wam I am earning some decent dosh down at the hairsprays so lets not moan and but lets show some loyalty back for all the backing my employers have shown me".

Dan took the massive injustice of been overlooked for the Lions on the chin, didn't moan and groan about it, just looked at every part of his game and made sure he worked damn hard pre-season to improve...... result: he is better defensively and offensively this season his dead ball and out of hand kicking is more accurate than any Welsh player including Halfpenny.

I can see Gatland rotating him and Rhys over the 6Ns

I only wish he has been born North of England.  

Hibbard, Jones, Roberts, Lydiate, Owens, L.Williams have also missed quite a bit of rugby this season due to injury. JD2 and R.Jones were added to the squad despite being injured at the time (like a few of the other guys on the list). JD2 is expected to back for our second game whilst Ryan Jones picked up a fresh injury in his first game back from a previous injury for the Ospreys and will miss the 6 Nations, he's a huge loss IMO. Lock forwards Evans and Davies would have been handy, as I alluded to in my previous post.