England squad of 26 announced - Ashton and Ben Youngs dropped

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25933506

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Backs: Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

i am very pleased with the stability in the forwards, and the new blood in the backs. would love to see Burrell, May and Watson get gametime against France.

quins,

Whats the likeliest line up out of that bunch.

Just a wee bit too much young blood for my taste. Two brandy new wings starting against France? Les Bleus will rain down aerial bombs on our wings until they crack. Let's hope they bring their balls of steel.

IMO...

forwards its going to look v similar to the NZ test i reckon. front row: marler/vunipola, hartley, cole
2nd row: launchbury, lawes
back row: robshaw, vunipola, wood

and backs much harder to call, but i would really love to see:
dickson
farrell
barritt
burrell

may
watson
brown

but i would be v unsurprised to see 36 start. however i will start crying if either brown or goode get put on the wing.

would also love to see nowell play the last 15 mins for brown at FB.

All the talk is Nowell to start at 14. Also looks like Care will start at 9.

Can we roll this thread into the France v England one?

doctor_grey wrote:Just a wee bit too much young blood for my taste.  Two brandy new wings starting against France?  Les Bleus will rain down aerial bombs on our wings until they crack.  Let's hope they bring their balls of steel.

i hear you. but brown has hands made of superglue. and the wings surely cant be aerially or defensively any worse than ashton over the last 12 months for england.

on the flipside for france, both may and watson will be quite unknown to them so they might not want to give them too much room to counterattack. but you may well be right.

Pretty solid and stable pack but with Farrell being the experienced man out of those back maybe a bit to much youth in one go, I do like Brown though.

Chjw131 wrote:All the talk is Nowell to start at 14. Also looks like Care will start at 9.

Can we roll this thread into the France v England one?

nowell at 14 would be okay. he loves to counterattack. and care does deserve his shot at 9 the way he's been playing for us.

this thread is about england only. just like there is one about the french squad. not sure they should both be merged onto the matchday soon-to-be-bunfight threads

bedfordwelsh wrote:Pretty solid and stable pack but with Farrell being the experienced man out of those back maybe a bit to much youth in one go, I do like Brown though.

i think they are going to narrow it from 26 to a matchday 23 on thursday...fingers crossed that burrell and may in particular make it from my perspective.

I am so pleased that Chris Ashton has been dropped as I think it will do him the world of good. It is hopefully the boot up the backside he needs to sort out his defence. I also believe that Lancaster has realised that no matter how much love he has for Alex Goode, it is better to play wings on the wing and not Fullbacks... Here's hoping anyway.

I actually am excited by this line-up, and the most I have been since SL took over and cleared out all the RWC 2011 dead wood.

Marler plus rest of pack picks itself

DIckson
Farrell
Nowell
36
Barritt
May
Brown

You have to have Barrit in there for his experience and defence though i expect to see Burrell figure
Brown is class.

quinsforever wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Pretty solid and stable pack but with Farrell being the experienced man out of those back maybe a bit to much youth in one go, I do like Brown though.

i think they are going to narrow it from 26 to a matchday 23 on thursday...fingers crossed that burrell and may in particular make it from my perspective.

Def think May will start as he's the only wing who's played 11 consistently. Brown on the wing is over with I think. The only question mark is the bench.

We could well see 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt which would be a cak bench.

we certainly need a big bugger at 13 to sacrifice himself on basterauds legs...36 or burrell should do the trick

Mr Bounce wrote: I also believe that Lancaster has realised that no matter how much love he has for Alex Goode, it is better to play wings on the wing and not Fullbacks... Here's hoping anyway.

So instead hes playing a center and a fullback   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote: I also believe that Lancaster has realised that no matter how much love he has for Alex Goode, it is better to play wings on the wing and not Fullbacks... Here's hoping anyway.

So instead hes playing a center and a fullback   

May has played a lot of FB so you could actually argue he's got the full compliment of full backs. Plus if he picks Goode and Watson on the bench he'd have the complete set!

Oops my bad. Nowell's being referred to as mostly a wing and I have only seen May play wing. Didn't realise he played centre.

Mako could well start and the big thing Bout him is he offers huge carrying which,is something our pack has been appalling at...and I mean really making.yards past the gainline.

I suspect 36 will start. Think Burrell will be at 13 aswell

Not sure Watson did enough on Saturday to justify his place. Looking forward to seeing May start.

It is going to,be an inexperienced backline but it won't lack power or pace so I hope they really take it to the French. It will also be fascinating to see how they cope with the French backs...

lets be honest, the gameplan, unfortunately, looks remarkably like gatball...big cohesive pack with strong set pieces (barring lineout imploding) and a back line of big capable defenders, plus brown who is awesome under the high ball.

vs france i think this is englands best strategy. but against ireland and wales's clever, experienced backs i worry it will come up short. but vs france i am confident.

Peter

Why do.you keep saying May is a centre...yes he's moved slightly but.he is predominantly a winger.

quinsforever wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Just a wee bit too much young blood for my taste.  Two brandy new wings starting against France?  Les Bleus will rain down aerial bombs on our wings until they crack.  Let's hope they bring their balls of steel.

i hear you. but brown has hands made of superglue. and the wings surely cant be aerially or defensively any worse than ashton over the last 12 months for england.

on the flipside for france, both may and watson will be quite unknown to them so they might not want to give them too much room to counterattack. but you may well be right.

I understand your point, but we don't want parity with Ashton's defense.  We want an upgrade, no (OK, not so hard)?  Not worried about Brown, but he won't be under every high ball.  Makes me concerned.  I think France will absolutely drop bombs on our new young wings.  It's what I would do.  It gets interesting if our lads do very well as it might open up space.............

All the wingers like yarde etc are injured..!

We all want to see the young lads but.then everyone whinges when they're picked.

May is quality...I.have no worries at all. Nowell I haven't seen much of but he will have been tested in camp.

Besides they'll more than likely have to beasts in Barrit and Burrell at centre...and Farrell at 10 aswell so plenty of defensive power.

GeordieFalcon wrote:All the wingers like yarde etc are injured..!

We all want to see the young lads but.then everyone whinges when they're picked.

May is quality...I.have no worries at all. Nowell I haven't seen much of but he will have been tested in camp.

Not really...just whinge when the 5th choice youngster gets a game simply because hes young.
Its not like we need a bigger pool to pick from, theres already plenty been chucked on the scrap heap like Joseph, Strettle, and Sharples. Do we need to add Foden Ashton and Goode to the list of yesterdays men? Find long term replacements for Yarde and Wade? Watson was within a gnats whisker of joining the party too. They might as well just draw straws for selection.

Ashton used to score a lot of tries. He still does for his club. Noone does for England from the back 3...and picking a guy with just 2 senior rugby tries to his name is unlikely to change that.
The same seems to be the case at scrum half, although at least thats the same pool of players they keep chopping and changing between.

Englands back division is starting to resemble the 90s cricket team bowlers. Or perhaps the British army on the somme, walk slowly toward the emeny till your injured and dont worry we'll have another bunch of kids coming up behind you to take your place.

Its no wonder Flood took the easy money in France when he saw what was coming for him.

Of course when it comes to his own job Lancaster is all over the papers talking about long term stability and how he should be judged on the 2019 world cup not the next one.....


Lancaster needs to stop trying to pick everyone and concentrate on getting the best from his players and improving them, forging a team and understandings, not just watching to see who has a good game at under 20s level.

Mind if it comes off hes a genius   

At least Nowell & May seem to know how to defend...

Scoring tries or not, if you need coaching on tackling at this level you shouldn't be playing for your country.

Peter,

I've defended Ashton loads. The tactics arent doing.anything for him. I've also spoke of strettle who scores and plays well for sarries...

There's a huge issue with the whole set up of.the backs and the interaction between forwards and backs. Ie forwards crashing through making.space etc.

Yarde would be my first choice but he's injured...Wade is.injured so you look elsewhere. May is the obvious starter...Watson I would keep in the Saxons.

It's not about making a bigger pool...its about injuries, and picking players who can adapt to,the tactics...as its clear they aren't going.to change

And Joseph (having finally found some form) would have had a pretty good chance of being involved if he wasnt injured...

i want to see burrell, and may start, as long as brown is FB. ashton has completely lost his confidence and need to re-prove himself. likewise youngs. i 100% agree with them being dropped. england have proved too reticent in the past to do this with players suffering a drop in form. look at the impact being dropped had on hartley. can work wonders.

and i want to see england dominate in the forwards, giving a solid platform for these newbie backs to really show what they can do.

doctor_grey wrote:Just a wee bit too much young blood for my taste.  Two brandy new wings starting against France?  Les Bleus will rain down aerial bombs on our wings until they crack.  Let's hope they bring their balls of steel.

Cause if they did that to Ashton, it'd be playing into his strengths?!

They may be raw but taking high balls is something they are good at. True, an experienced winger good under the high ball would be better but we don't have any of those unless you want to call in Monye or Cueto! Or move Brown to wing!

Why's Foden being mentioned? He's injured! And Goode is in the squad not on the scrap heap, for all we know he's starting.

Complaining for complaining's sake- I feel that Lancaster is now (and I'm frustrated with him too) damned if he does and damned if he doesn't

Hmmm... the balance is slightly tipped too far towards youth for my liking, but then injuries do sometimes force your hand. It may not be a bad thing either.

Very pleased that Ashton's been dropped; he should have been dropped as long ago as the 2012 Autumn Internationals, in my opinion. It may do him the power of good as he refocuses on getting his England shirt back, something which he may have been taking for granted, or at least started to, with the numerous opportunities/last chance saloons that he's been given.

For me when manu comes back, the First team is pretty much there apart from 12,11 and 14, if during this six nations we can at least work out who's the best out of burrell, 12 trees and barrit for the 12 shirt and find one nailed on international class winger from Watson, Nowell, may and Ashton, then when yarde, wade and foden come back well be sitting pretty.

Aston dropped!! Couldn't of happend to a nicer bloke...

Is Ashton an unpleasant bloke? Splash aside, he's never given me that impression

Swan dives galore should have stuck to rugby league

ChequeredJersey wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Just a wee bit too much young blood for my taste.  Two brandy new wings starting against France?  Les Bleus will rain down aerial bombs on our wings until they crack.  Let's hope they bring their balls of steel.

Cause if they did that to Ashton, it'd be playing into his strengths?!

They may be raw but taking high balls is something they are good at. True, an experienced winger good under the high ball would be better but we don't have any of those unless you want to call in Monye or Cueto! Or move Brown to wing!

I'm hoping all comes good. I like to see young guys making a run at the senior squad, but not two wings at the same time against a good team.   The lads might be good catching kicks in training or for their clubs, but this is a whole different level.  I hope they go well, but it seems an unnecessary risk to try two at the same time.  And, with Watson presumably the one on the bench, we don't even have a steady hand to bring on if needed.  That is, as you suggest, unless Lancaster once again starts hearing those voices telling him "must........play.........someone..........out..........of.........position" and puts Brown on the wing and Goode back deep.

I think Goode will be on the bench

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Goode will be on the bench

With Ford and Care ?

I think we may see Goode and Eastmond or Barritt, 36 covering 10 mostly. Telegraph article implies Care might be starting. Which should excite me but actually makes me think that he'll not be as exciting as expected in the rain, make a couple of poor kicks and then not get picked (behind an out of sorts Youngs and club level Dickson) for a bunch of games, once again

eastmond is with the Saxons

I would like to see Care starting against France. Amongst his strengths is the ability to take a quick run off the side of a ruck. I think this would help keep the French defense a bit more honest and under a bit more pressure. My concern about the England scrum halves in general is they appear more tentative for England than for their clubs. Which translates directly to slower ball and all the bad stuff which goes with it. Wonder why.

Oops, Barritt it is then

Duty281 what does Ashton need to do to get his England shirt back? Score even more tries at club level? 

Chequeredjersey you say that Nowell and May are good at getting high balls. Let's see how they handle it against France in France.

PSW agree with you. It does seem like an unnecessary gamble.

quinsforever sounds like you are using double standards - you say Care deserves to start because he's played well for Quins yet Ashton has been playing well for his club and scoring 11 more tries than Nowell I should add. Yet Ashton should be dropped.

If Care partners Farrell then you have yet another new partnership - Farrell has played mostly with Dickson and Youngs as 9s.

Potential for a real breakdown in communication if you have all new units in the backline.

I'm assuming Lancaster has been looking at what has happened in trajnjng too, Beshocked. We'll see what happens

Care
Farrell
May
36
Barritt
Nowell
Brown

I'd be pretty happy with the above.

Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Bit of a strange time to blood new players, SL should have done a bit of this during the AI's, but I guess he is seeing what these guys are doing during training and has made a decision that these guys are ready.

I just hope if it goes jubblies up these guys aren't grilled in the press, as it’s the one time of year rugby makes the back pages and the gutter press are all of a sudden experts on the game.

Bit surprised Ben Young’s has been dropped but as for Ashton about bloody time SL.

Well it was a choice between new caps or very old ones like Cueto and Monye! Or playing people out of position (even more so than Burrell at 13). It's not like after Ashton we have a host of capped, fit wingers, capped fit 13s etc is it?

Chequeredjersey I hope that's wrong. You either start Barritt or don't pick him.

I would have Ford on the bench definitely. We need to give some experience to another 10 option.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

I saw this, I would be interested to know what the plan is if Farrell gets injured, 12trees to 10 Goode to FB, Brown to wing and May to centre? Then the SL dream of having 4 FB's in one backline would be complete!

Theres been a lot of talk about Ashton/Nowell on the wing, but I think they will mostly be playing kick chase and defending so it makes sense to me. I am more concerned about the centres, 12trees will really need to step up against Fofana, I'm still not convinced by him, as much as I want to be.

I personally would start Barritt, our backs won't be clicking in this weather and with this inexperience together anyway, most attack will be countering i think, and he could mark Fofana out of the game, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen