England squad of 26 announced - Ashton and Ben Youngs dropped

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25933506

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Backs: Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

i am very pleased with the stability in the forwards, and the new blood in the backs. would love to see Burrell, May and Watson get gametime against France.

Who will be the unlucky 3 to be dropped from the squad?

Bets on Watson Ford and Mullan?

I love the double standards re Ashton - "He is scoring tries for his club - what more does he have to do?" Varndell last season was scoring tries for fun at Wasps, but I don't see many here calling for him to be back in the England set-up after his exposure at being a flaky defender. I would reckon that today his defence is probably better than Ashton's.

The fact that Ashton missed a crucial one on one tackle the other week in a Sarries game will have been noticed by SL. He wants everyone in his team firing on all defensive cylinders, and Ashton clearly isn't and hasn't been for some time. He constantly tries to take big attack runners out by waving his arms at torso level. Perhaps he should be taken aside by Tom Wood & Chris Robshaw and shown how to go for the legs???

lostinwales wrote:Bets on Watson Ford and Mullan?

Very good shout

Varndell - now given the circumstances why hasn't his name appeared in all this?

Varndell is so unlucky, he deserves another go imo

lostinwales wrote:Varndell - now given the circumstances why hasn't his name appeared in all this?

Take a long guess...


yes...


...Injured.

Mr Bounce fair point but Ashton has actually performed well at international level in previous matches whereas Varndell has never done that. Perhaps Varndell should have had more opportunities.

Was it a crucial one on one tackle? A horrific miss yes and it cost Saracens 3 points but it wasn't the reason Saracens lost. The Toulouse attack was snuffed out by someone else and they were prevented from scoring a try.

I do agree Ashton needs defence work though - how does one do that? Is it simply poor technique?

beshocked wrote:
I do agree Ashton needs defence work though - how does one do that? Is it simply poor technique?

You drop him from a very important game and make him want to get the shirt back, not gift him cap after cap after cap.  

Varndell has been mentioned on previous threads. Would have 60 caps and be a record try scorer if he was a kiwi or Aussie...but as,he can't tackle he's got two caps fir England

Mike Brown player of AIs..........

What more do people want?

MOTM against aus, played really well against NZ

15 is his.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Varndell has been mentioned on previous threads. Would have 60 caps and be a record try scorer if he was a kiwi or Aussie...but as,he can't tackle he's got two caps fir England

He also had a bit of a meltdown just about the time he mightve got a recall.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Of course he is....he does it for his club! ...

Mate i cant be a$$ed with your s$$t today....!

Club schmub. He can't do it at international level.

Who says he can't?

Farrell can do and has done it its just he cant do it all - but then very few can.

People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

My only concern is that these players should have been given game time during the AI's, is the start of the 6 nations a good time to try so many new players?

Time will tell!

Brad71090 wrote:People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

Farrell had won an AP title as the starting fly half. He had a lot more experience than Nowell.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Of course he is....he does it for his club! ...

Mate i cant be a$$ed with your s$$t today....!

Club schmub. He can't do it at international level.

Can he not? No bother....whatever.

beshocked wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

Farrell had won an AP title as the starting fly half.  He had a lot more experience than Nowell.

And Tuilagi debuted in a friendly and had already played against Australia and South Africa for his club.

The point here also is that England are not in desperate need to blood youngsters at wing. They already have a stack of wingers ahead of Nowell and Watson ( and even May) in the pecking order who have been capped recently. Whats going to happen when they are all fit? England will have 8 kids with less than 5 caps none of which have proved anything and no player who holds scoring records, has been to a world cup and on a lions tour.

All I can see being acheived here is encouraging more senior players to take the French money when its offered and not bothering waiting to get made redundant by Lancaster.

Peter

Name the wingers available for Saturday....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

Farrell had won an AP title as the starting fly half.  He had a lot more experience than Nowell.

And Tuilagi debuted in a friendly and had already played against Australia and South Africa for his club.

The point here also is that England are not in desperate need to blood youngsters at wing. They already have a stack of wingers ahead of Nowell and Watson ( and even May) in the pecking order who have been capped recently. Whats going to happen when they are all fit? England will have 8 kids with less than 5 caps none of which have proved anything and no player who holds scoring records, has been to a world cup and on a lions tour.

All I can see being acheived here is encouraging more senior players to take the French money when its offered and not bothering waiting to get made redundant by Lancaster.

There is a big necessity to get our backline sorted ASAP. The midfield pairing (without tuilahi) available needs to be found and frankly there's a few wingers out injured.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

Farrell had won an AP title as the starting fly half.  He had a lot more experience than Nowell.

And Tuilagi debuted in a friendly and had already played against Australia and South Africa for his club.

The point here also is that England are not in desperate need to blood youngsters at wing. They already have a stack of wingers ahead of Nowell and Watson ( and even May) in the pecking order who have been capped recently. Whats going to happen when they are all fit? England will have 8 kids with less than 5 caps none of which have proved anything and no player who holds scoring records, has been to a world cup and on a lions tour.

All I can see being acheived here is encouraging more senior players to take the French money when its offered and not bothering waiting to get made redundant by Lancaster.

Who are these stacks of wingers that are available PSW?

Also Tuilagi had indeed played against Australia and South Africa, but their B teams lest we forget. Nowell has at least played against SA's A team winger in Habana!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Peter

Name the wingers available for Saturday....

I can name the whingers.

Re. Ashton's defence he had this to say about it earlier in the month (taken from the Telegraph):

“Being a full-back from league, you are never asked to tackle,” he says, remembering his three seasons at Wigan.

“When someone breaks the line it’s a two-on-one and it’s almost always going to be a score.

"Playing in Northampton’s defensive system was very forgiving, too. It was quite passive, and as a winger you could get away with a lot more, if not hide.

“But for England, wing has become an important position in defence.

"Due to the pressure we put on teams, it leaves the winger open to making errors.

"It is a one-on-one battle. You’re on your own, and if you make a mistake it’s there for everyone to see.

"If a forward misses a tackle no one sees it, but if a winger does, it is instantly exposed.”

I can understand the arguments saying why increase the pool of inexperienced young kids...etc.

But at present the injury list is something like:
Wade, yarde, foden, varndell, Joseph, Lowe, tuilagi,

That leaves options:
Ashton- not adapting to the tactics
Strettle- seemingly not rated by lancs
Sharples- I don't think he's international quality
JSD- long missed the boat
Cueto-time has gone
Monye- time has gone
Banahan - hated by 606
May- apparently too young
Nowell- apparently too young
Watson- apparently too young
Elliot- probably too young

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Of course he is....he does it for his club! ...

Mate i cant be a$$ed with your s$$t today....!

Club schmub. He can't do it at international level.

Can he not? No bother....whatever.

Well if he can, then there is no evidence of it whatsoever, in a quite a large number of tests now.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Of course he is....he does it for his club! ...

Mate i cant be a$$ed with your s$$t today....!

Club schmub. He can't do it at international level.

Can he not? No bother....whatever.

Well if he can, then there is no evidence of it whatsoever, in a quite a large number of tests now.

Still good enough to beat the god like ABs. Plus he was man of the match vs Scotland last year - glorious pass to Parling to score.

I think you're just bitter because Farrell was part of the England team who gave NZ one of their heaviest ever defeats.

beshocked wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:People are worried about having 2 uncapped wings start or May, but how can they get experience and if they are worried about starting them at that age? what about Farrell he was that young when he first started and hes a 10!

Farrell had won an AP title as the starting fly half.  He had a lot more experience than Nowell.

Nowell and Watson, played in the J world cup final, that must count for something? May has been around for a while now, Ford has been in a prem final and played in Europe. They will all be fine they might make one mistake but who doesnt.

A junior world cup final is not the same as an AP final. You play stronger sides in the LV cup than the junior world cup.

Didn't question May starting. I questioned Nowell and Watson - especially as it's France away.

I wish I could share your faith in Nowell and Watson. We'll see what they can do soon enough.

Wouldn't you be just as concerned with Ashton starting as either of them 2 beshocked? I would have started Ashton in the hope the rejigged midfield reignited his form going forward but I'd still have questions of him going backwards.

no 7& 1/2 I would hope that with Ashton having something to prove he would perform. It's a kick in the teeth to be dropped for a 20 year old who has scored 0 tries in comparison to your 11 of the season.

I personally felt Ashton deserved one more go - reward his club form which has been good.

He has the experience that Nowell lacks.

If Lancaster thinks Nowell suits his style better - well let's see.

I have no issues with May....in fact im glad he's starting and hope he gets a chance to really have a go with the ball.

Watson didnt convince me last saturday and i would have kept him in the Saxons not the Seniors.

Nowell...well in all honesty i cant really comment as i havent seen alot of him.

It might be ironic that we drop Ashton when we finally have two players in the centre that can either play or smash holes in the opposition backline...something he flourishes with...

If i was Ashton i would continue doing what he is doing for Sarries - scoring tries...but then id be doing extra tackling practice with Mr Burger etc. It worked for Brown and his sprint training with Margot Wells (i think it was her)

Just send Billy and Mako running at him continuously for 10 mins before training each day. Eventually he will learn that going high is likely to end up with him being trampled on by a large chap

Fair point Bam Bam. Geordiefalcon I agree. Ashton needs some tackling practice.

How did he ever play League, as when I've watched it (nothing else on) Tackling is a major part of it.

watched nowell play in both their matches against toulon, arguably his biggest games life-to-date, and he flourished.

and the toulon players are gigantic, size-wise and by reputation, so i can't see him being overawed playing against France.

i wouldnt want to see him start at FB for england as i might worry if he tried to run everything back that he might get isolated (as he and the chiefs coaches seem to run everything), but if he gets some time on the wing that will be fine.

beshocked wrote:no 7& 1/2 I would hope that with Ashton having something to prove he would perform. It's a kick in the teeth to be dropped for a 20 year old who has scored 0 tries in comparison to your 11 of the season.

I personally felt Ashton deserved one more go - reward his club form which has been good.

He has the experience that Nowell lacks.

If Lancaster thinks Nowell suits his style better - well let's see.

Something to prove for both of them. Nowell: that he can perform at this level. Ashton: that he can take this set back and use it to improve.

ashton needed to be dropped, as for whatever reason, his performances for england seemed full of anxiety. hartley is playing better than ever, and must be in with a shout of captaincy, so if ashton wants it enough he will come back stronger and win his place back.

club tries are all well and good, but he has been consistenly poor for england. one of his tries in the AIs should have been disallowed when he slid off the end of the pitch without grounding it - he was very lucky it didnt go to the TMO. that is careless and worrying.

i'm really looking forwards to the game.

looking at the forwards and the size of burrell and 36, i'm not sure how much ball the wings are going to get anyway!

Players like Hartley, Lawes, Haskell, Morgan and Care have all been dropped by Lancaster and gone on to perform better. Beshocked do you seriously think so little of Ashtons character that he won't too?

Ive watched Nowell and Watson play, these guys have that X factor you need. Aston has done nothing to merit his place in the england team at Int level, he has been woeful in attack and defence for a while now and england need a change. With wade and yarde out its fallen to may nowell and watson, these guys have what it takes and SL thinks that too. They know their jobs and we will see come game day anyways but I know they can do the job, cant be any worse than splash

Oh my we fans are a fickle bunch. Lancaster gets moaned at for not selecting youth, now he's being moaned at because he has.

Surely it's right that Lancaster is seeing what these young lads are like, makes sense why we have a lot of injuries and building up to the world cup.

Also do feel a bit sorry for Youngs, I think it's right he's been dropped but his club form will have suffered due to Tigers injuries.

Why? Mele looks good for Tigers...

nathan wrote:Also do feel a bit sorry for Youngs, I think it's right he's been dropped but his club form will have suffered due to Tigers injuries.

I agree in part but he's made some really poor decisions as well when playing and has rarely taken control of a whole game.

He's the best potential 9 we have but at present he's not quite there. He's still only young though and has plenty of time to sharpen up.

Care has it on merit at the moment but I wonder about his kicking in Paris in the cold and rain.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Why? Mele looks good for Tigers...

He certainly doesn't look that much better than Youngs.

Two untested wings.....its a massive gamble v France. It's a huge change in direction for SL, strikes me he is conservative as a selector - except for at 10 it appears but there may be other reasons for that.

Playing international rugby is a big step up from even the highest standard of club rugby, to expect May and Nowell to perform straight off the bat against France is a huge ask and i think France will exploit that with the high ball.

If England are smart they will play to their strengths, keep it tight, slow the game and keep the ball.

Hmmmm
Well, you'll have watched more Tigers matches than I certainly, so I'll take your word for it. But from what I've seen, Mele looks in a different class this season

Scratch wrote:Two untested wings.....its a massive gamble v France. It's a huge change in direction for SL, strikes me he is conservative as a selector - except for at 10 it appears but there may be other reasons for that.

Playing international rugby is a big step up from even the highest standard of club rugby, to expect May and Nowell to perform straight off the bat against France is a huge ask and i think France will exploit that with the high ball.

If England are smart they will play to their strengths, keep it tight, slow the game and keep the ball.

With Brown and two young wingers full of pace and bounce who can play wing or full back equally well, that would be the last thing I would do if I were France. They will have a chance to see what May and Nowell have/can do if poor kicking gives them space and time to run the ball back. I haven't seen a lot of Nowell but May can be absolutely devastating. Think England in Argentina last year, when he went out late, every time he got the ball in space he caused havoc

I admire the optimism i really do but would suggest France are not Argentina. With the picking of nowell and may there seems to have been a sudden reinvention of english rugby though it seems to rely on france playing ball and i hope they get the memo - the problems in the centres have now been forgotten because england have picked 2 hotshot wingers, just hope they see the ball.

England seem to remember everything and learn nothing, and it totally goes against everything we know about the way they play.

I imagine that sense will prevail and that in the heat of battle they will revert to type and that we are going to see a lot of pick and drive and then bringing wingers in as 1st/2nd receivers as the english pack drives up the middle....until England have established centres, pace on the wing seems to rely on getting the ball from french kicking and one wonders if hti sis what SL is hoping for.