England squad of 26 announced - Ashton and Ben Youngs dropped

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25933506

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Backs: Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

i am very pleased with the stability in the forwards, and the new blood in the backs. would love to see Burrell, May and Watson get gametime against France.

Telegraph usually gets it correct and they have gone with:

England team to face France (probable): 15) Mike Brown 14) Jack Nowell 13) Luther Burrell 12) Billy Twelvetrees 11) Jonny May 10) Owen Farrell 9) Danny Care 1) Joe Marler 2) Dylan Hartley 3) Dan Cole 4) Joe Launchbury 5) Courtney Lawes 6) Tom Wood 7) Chris Robshaw 8) Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Tom Youngs, Mako Vunipola, Henry Thomas, Dave Attwood, Ben Morgan, Lee Dickson, Alex Goode, Brad Barritt.

95% of the time I think Lancaster is going in the right direction but I continue to be dismayed by his bench choices in the backs. 3 twelves in the squad seems excessive. Going with no fly half on the bench is bold but usually it's so you can have a bit more flexibility there? Two new wingers starting and no cover for them. 3 guys starting who have good experience at full back yet you pick a guy in the bench in Goode who effectively only covers fullback. It just seems that his policy is to fill the bench with the 'unluckiest' players not to get picked.

Saying that like the pack cover and think there is some real impact there with Mako, Morgan and Youngs to come on.

What do you think Ashton will do with his time this weekend?

Perhaps he will start writing another book?

Probably our new wingers will get injured and he'll have to come back into the fold...

GloriousEmpire wrote:What do you think Ashton will do with his time this weekend?

Perhaps he will start writing another book?

He should get a mate to hold a tackle bag in the morning and then in the afternoon move onto his Granny running at him to see if he can tackle her.  

Good team all in all.

I can see the logic behind Barritt and Goode covering on the bench but at the same time slightly concerning if early injuries occur on the wing or at 10.

If it came down to it would people prefer 36 or Goode stepping in at 10 for the second half?

Great looking pack and good to see Attwood on the bench as well. Henry Thomas must be a little shell shocked!

I am not convinced with Henry Thomas at the moment - but, who else is there?
I agree that there are no real game changing backs to come on! Dickson, Barritt or Goode are not going to add that spark that might light up a match.

There is a good looking future for England though - With injuries back and players in form a bench that includes - Ben Youngs, Eastmond, Foden would look a lot more exciting.

In theory Mike Brown covers wing, Barritt or May 13 and Goode or most likely 36 covers 10. It's risky but 36 has been playing a fair bit of 10 (albeit mediocrely behind a poor pack) this season

IIRC 36 showed a few good games at 10 for Tigers a while back and honestly it's not like it's difficult to follow the Eng gameplan at 10, sit deep and kick!

Scott Wilson and keiron Brookes from us alone is better than Henry thomas.
I like that telegraph team. Inexperienced but offers alot.

Be interesting to see if there are improvments from the stodge or if it really is coaching and tactical issues hindering the team.

propdavid_london wrote:I am not convinced with Henry Thomas at the moment - but, who else is there?
I agree that there are no real game changing backs to come on! Dickson, Barritt or Goode are not going to add that spark that might light up a match.

There is a good looking future for England though - With injuries back and players in form a bench that includes - Ben Youngs, Eastmond, Foden would look a lot more exciting.

Looks to me that bench is created to defend a lead for the last 20 minutes. Not chase a game from behind on the scoreboard.

Awkward if we are losing then!

The backs are definitely there to plug a gap if one appears.
Youngs-Mako-Attwood-Morgan are all ball carriers though - So, bringing on the big meat with 20mins to go could really change a game - I guess that's what SL is banking on.
That - and with bad weather its not going to be much of a backs game anyway!

It's very interesting. Lancaster seems to have decided that his back line was a cot case (I think an opinion shared quite widely).

The axe has been wielded and yet another wholesale clean out has seen another mob of youngsters thrown together to face France. It could be a baptism of fire.

So interesting to me that Lancaster can't see that the problem starts with the decision making and distribution from Farrell. It would have been very worthwhile to allow his existing selection to play with a decent 10. I guess Farrell Snr. is still holding sway in the internal court of opinion that his son is perfect and can do no wrong, despite Lancaster's protestations to the contrary.

Gloriousempire who do you suggest that Lancaster plays at 10 then?

In all honesty I would try his two obvious choices from the Saxons in rotation (I would've done it before now, in the AIs) and convinced wilkinson to appear on the bench as safety option if it all went wrong to revert to a very conservative 10 man safety net plan B.

If neither of them worked out, then reluctantly reinstate Farrell but then think about the balance of the team.

yappysnap wrote:IIRC 36 showed a few good games at 10 for Tigers a while back and honestly it's not like it's difficult to follow the Eng gameplan at 10, sit deep and kick!

 And he was really bad when it got to the big pressure games, he isn't a 10.

So gloriousempire you would pick Freddie Burns and Henry Slade?  

Wilkinson? There is a strict policy to not play those who have abandoned English international honours for French money.

Anyway we need to be looking to the future.

Playing Ford or Cipriani would be better than your suggestions.

Twelvetrees has only had one bad England game, stop moaning.

EnglishReign wrote:Twelvetrees has only had one bad England game, stop moaning.

Which one do you believe that was?  

He actually only had one bad tackle - that was the one he was put on his arse by that Aussie centre.

Bold choices again from Lancaster. You would suspect that Catt would be quite happy with the potential backs in the team but it brings more focus upon him and his role with the team.

GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Geordiefalcon but only certain players are judged on missing a bad tackle.  

Twelvetrees is a hero who can do no wrong.

Timing is difficult. Its the same issues everywhere where there just isnt the pool of slightly older experienced players with a few caps. So its a case of which of the young guys can step up the fastest. Farrell has stepped up.

Burns has just had an awful season and has missed his chance this year, but we would hope will come back stronger. The next guys in line are Ford, Slade and possibly Cips

The most experienced half backs would probably be Youngs and Flood. Well Flood wasnt producing in his last few runs at FH for England and that chapter is done now. Youngs isnt in a good place right now but when on form is still probably the best SH we have. We just have to hope his current issues are temporary.

Farrell is almost always reliable

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon but only certain players are judged on missing a bad tackle.  .

It was more than one to be fair!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Is this the worst backs selection for a bench: 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt?

Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Is this the worst backs selection for a bench: 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt?

Depends what you mean by worst - you have two players who are in very good club form and the other has been one of the England's defensive lynch pins when playing for England. Plus all have more than 10 caps so it's not like throwing some novices onto the pitch.

beshocked wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Is this the worst backs selection for a bench: 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt?

Depends what you mean by worst - you have two players who are in very good club form and the other has been one of the England's defensive lynch pins when playing for England. Plus all have more than 10 caps so it's not like throwing some novices onto the pitch.

Now now beshocked you're sounding embattled. I know full well what the form of the above players is like. It's not form I was alluding to, although Dickson's has been mediocre and Barritt has had two games back from injury. Goode has been going well but standing out against a well beaten Connacht I wouldn't venture was that challenging.

What I mean is if you're going to start those players and play that sort of rugby then fine. Nail one's colours to the mast and pick the biggest pack conceivable. If the coaches honestly think we can sit back with 20/30 minutes to go and defend a lead I think it's incredibly naiive.

As mentioned above Lancs bench selections seem to consist of 'unlucky to miss out' selections.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Geordiefalcon Ashton deserves criticism for his tackling but I feel that sometimes the criticism is selective. Does Lawes gets blamed for losing us the match in 2012 at Twickenham vs Wales? Getting the ball stripped off him by a centre?No.

Does Foden get blamed for missing a crucial tackle vs NZ? No. Plus three forwards who missed tackles in the build up?

Has Brown been criticised for any of his numerous missed tackles in the 6 nations last year? No.

Instead people focus their ire on certain players - not all from my club. I can't understand the criticism that Robshaw gets. Especially after that game vs South Africa.

Farrell and Ashton are blamed most for the two losses to Wales and NZ.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Geordiefalcon Ashton deserves criticism for his tackling but I feel that sometimes the criticism is selective. Does Lawes gets blamed for losing us the match in 2012 at Twickenham vs Wales? Getting the ball stripped off him by a centre?No.

Does Foden get blamed for missing a crucial tackle vs NZ? No. Plus three forwards who missed tackles in the build up?

Has Brown been criticised for any of his numerous missed tackles in the 6 nations last year? No.

Instead people focus their ire on certain players - not all from my club. I can't understand the criticism that Robshaw gets. Especially after that game vs South Africa.

Farrell and Ashton are blamed most for the two losses to Wales and NZ.

Yes he chuffin' does - absolutely pathetic

Chjw131 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Is this the worst backs selection for a bench: 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt?

Depends what you mean by worst - you have two players who are in very good club form and the other has been one of the England's defensive lynch pins when playing for England. Plus all have more than 10 caps so it's not like throwing some novices onto the pitch.

Now now beshocked you're sounding embattled. I know full well what the form of the above players is like. It's not form I was alluding to, although Dickson's has been mediocre and Barritt has had two games back from injury. Goode has been going well but standing out against a well beaten Connacht I wouldn't venture was that challenging.

What I mean is if you're going to start those players and play that sort of rugby then fine. Nail one's colours to the mast and pick the biggest pack conceivable. If the coaches honestly think we can sit back with 20/30 minutes to go and defend a lead I think it's incredibly naiive.

As mentioned above Lancs bench selections seem to consist of 'unlucky to miss out' selections.

Barritt has had four games back from injury - replacement vs Worcester, started vs Gloucester, Toulouse and Connacht.

Goode hasn't just played well vs Connacht. 4 tries in the AP in 10 matches. 3rd most metres and 3rd most defenders beaten in the HC - nominated on the long list for HC player of 2014. Can't say I have seen Dickson in the last 3-4 matches but when I have seen him he's looked good.

Defend a lead? No - it shows England are going to try and win it in the forwards. Unsurprising when you think that's where England's strength is.

It allows Lancaster to shore up areas if he feels like players are not performing.

Brown to be fair didn't miss that many tackles in the 6N despite being slow for a wing and out of position- despite some poor positioning and a shocker at the end, he missed 3 tackles to Ashton's 10, and made more tackles too

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Geordiefalcon Ashton deserves criticism for his tackling but I feel that sometimes the criticism is selective. Does Lawes gets blamed for losing us the match in 2012 at Twickenham vs Wales? Getting the ball stripped off him by a centre?No.

Does Foden get blamed for missing a crucial tackle vs NZ? No. Plus three forwards who missed tackles in the build up?

Has Brown been criticised for any of his numerous missed tackles in the 6 nations last year? No.

Instead people focus their ire on certain players - not all from my club. I can't understand the criticism that Robshaw gets. Especially after that game vs South Africa.

Farrell and Ashton are blamed most for the two losses to Wales and NZ.

Who on earth is blaming Farrell for the Wales loss? That's crazy, it was clearly some terrible back row balance, naive tactics and a fired up Welsh team!

I think Lawes got a lot of flack for that ball rip and then for a really bad game at 6 against France, which again was an old selection.

Whilst the other mistakes you mention may have been from players playing out of position, or coming back from injury or who have subsequently upped their game, I really struggle to say when Ashton last had a good game for England and he plays in his favorite position every time. A good international game for an international winger with quite a lot of caps in a team that are actually doing ok it's all anyone can ask of him and I can't think of a recent one.

Aren't Connacht and Zebre in Goode's pool for the HEC though? Meaning 4 out of 6 games are relatively easy and 2 of those absolutely easy. Tries scored in the AP fair enough

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Geordiefalcon Ashton deserves criticism for his tackling but I feel that sometimes the criticism is selective. Does Lawes gets blamed for losing us the match in 2012 at Twickenham vs Wales? Getting the ball stripped off him by a centre?No.

Does Foden get blamed for missing a crucial tackle vs NZ? No. Plus three forwards who missed tackles in the build up?

Has Brown been criticised for any of his numerous missed tackles in the 6 nations last year? No.

Instead people focus their ire on certain players - not all from my club. I can't understand the criticism that Robshaw gets. Especially after that game vs South Africa.

Farrell and Ashton are blamed most for the two losses to Wales and NZ.

Yes he chuffin' does - absolutely pathetic

Agreed, this elephant doesn't forget things like that.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Beshocked, if your refering to Ashton, even you can't defend his defending.
And don't go on...36 is not a hero etc. I'd just as happy see Barritt at 12 if he has creativty aroiund him.

Dont chastise people for criticising a sarries player.

Geordiefalcon Ashton deserves criticism for his tackling but I feel that sometimes the criticism is selective. Does Lawes gets blamed for losing us the match in 2012 at Twickenham vs Wales? Getting the ball stripped off him by a centre?No.

Does Foden get blamed for missing a crucial tackle vs NZ? No. Plus three forwards who missed tackles in the build up?

Has Brown been criticised for any of his numerous missed tackles in the 6 nations last year? No.

Instead people focus their ire on certain players - not all from my club. I can't understand the criticism that Robshaw gets. Especially after that game vs South Africa.

Farrell and Ashton are blamed most for the two losses to Wales and NZ.

Mate Lawes got a hell of a lot of stick...as does hartley, Croft, Robshaw , marler etc etc....its not just Sarracens.

Farrell has a creativity difficiency but its improving so his stick is not near what it was. Ashton however looks like he has done nothing to improve his defence and so rightly takes stick.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:GE so you think Burns performance on Saturday for the Saxons was worthy of a start for the full team on Saturday...wow. Let's see Farrell playing flat (take it on himself to do so and ignore orders if need be)...and that would improve things.

Twelvtrees missed a bad tackle but he shouldn't be judged only on that.

Farrell isn't capable of playing flat. He's too ponderous in his decision making. Watch him. It's robotic, predetermined stuff all the way and that's why he's so easy to shut down. He distributes when it just isn't on and isolates his inside backs in poor position or he kicks it away when there is space and he needs to go wide. His idea of "going wide" as well, which is all too familiar a problem with English pivots, is to hiff a wide loopy miss-out pass as far as he can reach, rather than allowing his back line to draw and pass to effect a simple overlap.

Of course he is....he does it for his club! ...

Mate i cant be a$$ed with your s$$t today....!

Thought Ashton did his job well vs Scotland and NZ. Two good finishes.

Chequeredjersey I apologise. Statistically Brown did not miss many tackles but he was guilty for tries being scored by Scotland and the two by Wales. The loss vs Wales so heavy because Brown was exposed on his wing twice - he was out of position and too slow fair enough (not his fault) but that's why England got hammered. I would say that was Lancaster's fault though for putting Brown on the wing.

I agree little badger - Lancaster's selections were poor. Sometimes I believe the players get more criticism whereas the coaches don't, except for Andy Farrell of course.

Brown's trouble was that he drifting in field too much and was not in the position to make tackles, but he did get flack for that, it just stopped when he was player of the AIs. Even then not everyone is sold on him, many people still prefer Foden

beshocked wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Telegraph thinks Goode and Barritt on the bench.

Is this the worst backs selection for a bench: 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. B Barritt?

Depends what you mean by worst - you have two players who are in very good club form and the other has been one of the England's defensive lynch pins when playing for England. Plus all have more than 10 caps so it's not like throwing some novices onto the pitch.

Now now beshocked you're sounding embattled. I know full well what the form of the above players is like. It's not form I was alluding to, although Dickson's has been mediocre and Barritt has had two games back from injury. Goode has been going well but standing out against a well beaten Connacht I wouldn't venture was that challenging.

What I mean is if you're going to start those players and play that sort of rugby then fine. Nail one's colours to the mast and pick the biggest pack conceivable. If the coaches honestly think we can sit back with 20/30 minutes to go and defend a lead I think it's incredibly naiive.

As mentioned above Lancs bench selections seem to consist of 'unlucky to miss out' selections.

Barritt has had four games back from injury - replacement vs Worcester, started vs Gloucester, Toulouse and Connacht.

Goode hasn't just played well vs Connacht. 4 tries in the AP in 10 matches. 3rd most metres and 3rd most defenders beaten in the HC - nominated on the long list for HC player of 2014. Can't say I have seen Dickson in the last 3-4 matches but when I have seen him he's looked good.

Defend a lead? No - it shows England are going to try and win it in the forwards. Unsurprising when you think that's where England's strength is.

It allows Lancaster to shore up areas if he feels like players are not performing.

But if you're going to try and win it in the forwards the players selected as the bench option should surely be starting as your best defenders and kickers?! The point stands the bench selection is poor. What you want from a bench is impact and impetus, which certainly looks to be the case in the forwards but the polar opposite in the backs.

Start them by all means but if you're going to have a 'shift in playing philosophy' follow it through.

On the Lawes front he got massive flak for that stripped ball and had a number of posters questioning whether he should even be in the team right up until the last autumn internationals. The amount of times I have seen some posters say he is totally overrated is almost innumerable.

Chjw131 who would be in your bench? Dickson,Barritt and Goode on the bench wouldn't be my first choice but I certainly don't think it's the worst.

Well actually that's sometimes where usage of the bench can differ. Lancaster perhaps doesn't want to throw in even more inexperienced players.

chequeredjersey many prefer Foden? Like who?

Again I think with Lawes I think he's had issues because Lancaster has picked him out of position.

Foden struggled on the wing for England when picked there and missed a crucial tackle vs NZ.

Good to see Lancaster is not putting full backs onto the wing.  He does have a tiny obsession with full backs.

If you came into the 606 Facebook group you'd see a bunch of England fans who'd still rather play Foden than Brown or Goode

Does anybody think the build up has been a bit tame?

I misss the days when you'd have Brian Moore questioning French manhood in the press for five full days before the match...

beshocked wrote:Chjw131 who would be in your bench? Dickson,Barritt and Goode on the bench wouldn't be my first choice but I certainly don't think it's the worst.

Well actually that's sometimes where usage of the bench can differ. Lancaster perhaps doesn't want to throw in even more inexperienced players.

chequeredjersey many prefer Foden? Like who?

Again I think with Lawes I think he's had issues because Lancaster has picked him out of position.

Foden struggled on the wing for England when picked there and missed a crucial tackle vs NZ.

Good to see Lancaster is not putting full backs onto the wing.  He does have a tiny obsession with full backs.

He is though, he's got the full set of fullbacks starting, admittedly May can play both as well as centre. If he'd go for Goode and Watson on the bench he could have the full compliment of full backs!

My bench for the backs would be 21. L Dickson (I would've put Youngs but he's just too out of form) 22. G Ford (I think he needs exposure given he's the only realistic back-up to Farrell at the momet) 23. A Watson (Goode has played well but I think Watson has potential either at FB or Wing and once again there's not a whole pile of games to find that out). Incidentally my centre starting pairing would probably be 36 and Barritt purely from what's on offer.

Cumbrian wrote:Does anybody think the build up has been a bit tame?

I misss the days when you'd have Brian Moore questioning French manhood in the press for five full days before the match...

  

My favourite Brian Moore commentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTQWT-B0EBw

Chequeredjersey do they actually watch rugby on a regular basis though?

Brown is the man in possession of the 15 shirt as of now.

Cumbrian I think the French are probably just a bit depressed because of their shrinking player pool and lack of success vs England in the 6 nations recently. There's no reason for France to talk things up. Plus they haven't got Harinorduquy in the squad anymore to spice things up.

England? Obviously nervous - France away is tough, you don't know how the French will react. Picking a few rookies in the backline.

Leave the trashtalk to Gatland.  

beshocked wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Twelvetrees has only had one bad England game, stop moaning.

Which one do you believe that was?  

Well he had a great debut and try v Scotland last year and didn't really play any others. Had an excellent Argentina tour (resulting in a Lions call up) and then a bit of a shocker v Australia last Autumn - which he admitted to. Made amends with a much improved performance and try v Argentina at Twickenham and put in a good performance v NZ.

That leads us up to now. Clearly the best option at 12.

I seem to remember Youngs being dropped from the squad before and coming back strong or am I day dreaming?