England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

Can someone please give me an honest unbiased view on how Tom Youngs has been playing for Tigers.

Has he done his hooking basics well...has he been good in the set pieces etc.

Im not bothered about his "loose play"...if thats all that mattered we could put a flanker in at 2.

BamBam wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:On top of that we could still field another team consisting of capped players:

1. Marler/Mako, 2.Webber/Youngs, 3. Wilson, 4. Parling, 5. Attwood, 6. Haskall, 7. Kvesic, 8. Morgan, 9. Youngs/Care, 10. Ford/Burns, 11. May/Yarde, 12. Barrett, 13. Burrell, 14. Ashton/Wade, 15. Foden/Goode

So many players!!!!!!!!!

Hey!!!  Wait up now!  We only want to see 15 on the field at any time or we're not going to agree to play the game at all.

Spoilsport. Thought we had solved our backup hooker problem. Webber to do the set piece and Youngs to run around causing mayhem in the loose

Just wait till we get in a south african scrum half the day before the game as well as fielding 16 men

For balance though Ireland are playing POM who apparently is covering 6, 7 lock and jesus all at same time.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can someone please give me an honest unbiased view on how Tom Youngs has been playing for Tigers.

Has he done his hooking basics well...has he been good in the set pieces etc.

Im not bothered about his "loose play"...if thats all that mattered we could put a flanker in at 2.

Lineout has been immaculate.

Lancaster was quite happy to blame the jumpers for last weekend, not Youngs.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

BamBam wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:On top of that we could still field another team consisting of capped players:

1. Marler/Mako, 2.Webber/Youngs, 3. Wilson, 4. Parling, 5. Attwood, 6. Haskall, 7. Kvesic, 8. Morgan, 9. Youngs/Care, 10. Ford/Burns, 11. May/Yarde, 12. Barrett, 13. Burrell, 14. Ashton/Wade, 15. Foden/Goode

So many players!!!!!!!!!

Hey!!!  Wait up now!  We only want to see 15 on the field at any time or we're not going to agree to play the game at all.

Spoilsport. Thought we had solved our backup hooker problem. Webber to do the set piece and Youngs to run around causing mayhem in the loose

Just wait till we get in a south african scrum half the day before the game as well as fielding 16 men

For balance though Ireland are playing POM who apparently is covering 6, 7 lock and jesus all at same time.

Yeah, I suppose we are cheating there,sure enough ...but traditions are hard to break.

Do you think its unfamiliarity thats caused the issues when he's come on...ie hes used to his Tigers jumpers...where as Hartley starts the game with his clubmate Lawes..(and Wood) etc?

who is this POM ?

[PS: they all are 'O' something, so that does not help.]

Will POM playing like a 7 work against the "flood the breakdown" approach? Or will Schmidt use a different tactic anyway? GE's idea that our approach to the breakdown might be vulnerable to breakaways had a point

gregortree wrote:who is this POM ?

[PS: they all are 'O' something, so that does not help.]

Peter O' Mahoney

The second coming, I think, gregortree

thank you CJ

ChequeredJersey wrote:Will POM playing like a 7 work against the "flood the breakdown" approach? Or will Schmidt use a different tactic anyway? GE's idea that our approach to the breakdown might be vulnerable to breakaways had a point

Well I'm not trying to say you're right but yes...you might be.  On both counts.

Lordy Mama.
19 pages of posts and we are still more than a week away from this match.  And everyone is so ruddy polite.  
"You are better"
"oh no, you are better"
"We will be lucky to win"
"Oh no, I would be shocked to win"
Jeez, people are even polite when discussing Dylan Hartley.  

That is way too much foreplay for me.

Yeah I hate foreplay too. Bring on the match before I burst.

doctor_grey wrote:Lordy Mama.
19 pages of posts and we are still more than a week away from this match.  And everyone is so ruddy polite.  
"You are better"
"oh no, you are better"
"We will be lucky to win"
"Oh no, I would be shocked to win"
Jeez, people are even polite when discussing Dylan Hartley.  

That is way too much foreplay for me.

It is.  It's saccharine sweet in here.   And I don't have a sweet tooth.   Although,in defence of the place.... there has been the mention of Thugs, over-hyped players, God and pigs ("pork").  So it's not all sweetness and light - a few early nut-kicks have been landed.

Wait, does this make POM BOD's lovechild?

No...it makes him actually BOD's father.... you know, the Star Wars scene

"BOD!...I AM your father" He may look younger but that's just a trick of Spirituality.

If POM is the father, BOD is the son then who is the ghost to complete this trinity?

There'd be a lot of contenders in the minds of Provincial die-hard Irish fans as to who the ghost might be in the current Irish squad.  

Some will think Marshall at 12, some will think Zebo, some will think McFadden or Fitzgerald.  There are a lot of candidates.  Players who should be on the team but because of Provincial bias somewhere or other - aren't.

TJ wrote:I think Lancaster has done a great job.he has taken a dysfunctional team where no new folk had been blooded and made a team of them and has blooded youngsters but without exposing the core of the team. He is clearly the best coach in the 6N altho Schmidt may overtake him

he is the best asset England have and I think he may be exposed in this 6N but he has the team in rude health for the WC.  I still have ireland as faves tho

No new folk? 2011 World Cup Squad (players capped by Johnson in the previous 3 years)

Dylan Hartley
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
David Wilson
Courtney Lawes
Tom Wood
Thomas Waldrom
Joe Simpson
Ben Youngs
Shontayne Hape
Manu Tuilagi
Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Ben Foden

15

Additional players in the current EPS capped by Johnson

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)

Players capped by Lancaster in the current EPS (after modifications in Jan 14)

Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins) - althought brought into England squad by Johnson
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) - refused to play for Saxons under Johnson
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) - brought into England squad by Johnson
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)

17

Most of these are too young to have been selected by Johnson.

So with these there's not much difference between the two groups. Other than the usual raft of 'retirements' post-WC. In additional Flood, Haskell, Croft, etc group of players became established under Johnson.

Just because he selected Moody and Wilkinson when maybe others should have been chosen doesn't mean he didn't bring in new players. Complete myth.

 good post Thunor... and enlightening to be reminded of those key players introduced on Johnson's watch.

doctor_grey wrote:Lordy Mama.
19 pages of posts and we are still more than a week away from this match.  And everyone is so ruddy polite.  
"You are better"
"oh no, you are better"
"We will be lucky to win"
"Oh no, I would be shocked to win"
Jeez, people are even polite when discussing Dylan Hartley.  

That is way too much foreplay for me.

It's OK we have a 2 week build up to Wales as well so we can get the 50 pages of vitriolic comments in then.

I think the reason every one is being so pleasent is that the England fans respect the Irish team and vice versa. And neither set of fans takes any notice of the wummers. see posts post no 2 & 3. This is pretty much the opposite of what happens when English and Welsh fans appear in the same forum/thread!!!

ChequeredJersey wrote:The second coming, I think, gregortree

He is a one man team. Rumour has it that Schmidt is only going to pick one back row player v England (POM) because he currently does all Heaslip and Chris Henry's work and the other two aren't required. Instead Ireland will take the un-precedented step of playing two scrum halves and two out halves to keep Farrell and Care guessing.

This according to Schmidt is the best option to play the "Munster way".

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:The second coming, I think, gregortree

He is a one man team. Rumour has it that Schmidt is only going to pick one back row player v England (POM) because he currently does all Heaslip and Chris Henry's work and the other two aren't required. Instead Ireland will take the un-precedented step of playing two scrum halves and two out halves to keep Farrell and Care guessing.

That would be bold and probably technically legal as long as they were bound to the scrum whilst it was occurring

Its looks like Luke Fitz will not be involved in the Ireland v England match day squad anyway.

I see Manu and Yarde are both on the verge of returning and whilst they'll not be ready for Ireland could possibly be available for selection v Wales and Italy..if Lancs chooses.

Be very interesting to see how Lancs went with that decision.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think its unfamiliarity thats caused the issues when he's come on...ie hes used to his Tigers jumpers...where as Hartley starts the game with his clubmate Lawes..(and Wood) etc?

Yes, I truly believe it is. I think if Youngs had Parling/ Kitchener in there and even Croft then he wouldn't be having these issues. It is all about communication and especially as a relative novice at the position, I think he is probably finding it more difficult. That is not to say that he can be completely excused because if you want to be an international hooker then you have to be able to get it right with people you don't usually play with but I think it is also perfectly believable that it isn't just his fault. The other factor is that neither Lawes, nor Atwood, are experienced line out callers so it will also be difficult for them with a hooker they don't usually play with.

If we beat Ireland, absolutely not unless there are injuries or someone has a shocker. Probably not anyway, I'd rate he keep them fit for NZ, where we will need a deep squad and Burrell is likely to not be available for T1

Then its up to Young’s to get up to speed, he potentially cost us the game vs. France.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Manu and Yarde are both on the verge of returning and whilst they'll not be ready for Ireland could possibly be available for selection v Wales and Italy..if Lancs chooses.

Be very interesting to see how Lancs went with that decision.

Yarde and Manu on form both superior to what is there now but we have a good thing going and I wouldnt want to rush those guys back in unless proven.

Agree CJ

If the current lads peform well then i wouldnt rush Tuilagi or Yarde back.

LIW

i apprecite the standard...Tuilagi is probably better..Yarde in essence is no more proven that Nowell at this level really.

But i think just putting them straight back in sends out a bad message. Nowell has performed well and has shown he could be very able at this level, to just replace him for say Yarde would be wrong.

GeordieFalcon wrote:LIW

i apprecite the standard...Tuilagi is probably better..Yarde in essence is no more proven that Nowell at this level really.

But i think just putting them straight back in sends out a bad message. Nowell has performed well and has shown he could be very able at this level, to just replace him for say Yarde would be wrong.

Totally agree. Its all a bit of a no brainer. Might be fun having Manu on the bench if he is looking OK because he doesnt seem to take long to get up to speed after injury but thats it. And if you think about the carrying impact of the replacement forwards plus Manu... all we need is a half decent replacement SH

If he is fit, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tuilagi come onto the bench for the Italy game, especially if the outcome has no bearing on the championship

killer938 wrote:If he is fit, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tuilagi come onto the bench for the Italy game, especially if the outcome has no bearing on the championship

Cockerills announced he wont be fit till after the 6 nations (code for I want him protected for our HC and last ditch to get in the playoffs)

Manu is quality, no doubt...but Burrells performances in his first 2 caps would have pleased Lancs and meant England havent missed Manus carrying as much as they might have.

Its some good choices to have. But i dont want to see lots of chopping and changing.

My criticism of England has been the effectiveness of taking our chances...and our backs wont learn this if we just keep chopping and changing.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

killer938 wrote:If he is fit, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tuilagi come onto the bench for the Italy game, especially if the outcome has no bearing on the championship

Cockerills announced he wont be fit till after the 6 nations (code for I want him protected for our HC and last ditch to get in the playoffs)

And i think that is most sensible all round both for Tigers and England.

Manu fit in Summer and fit long term and getting club time is far more important than what he could add to this 6N now

Burrell's been really good, but he's had a couple of break-through runs in the last 2 matches and got caught/held-up before the line. Each time I couldn't help but feel Manu would've had the pace and power to actually deliver the try finish.

Yeh, I mean I would much prefer it to happen like that, just meant if he played for Tigers before the last couple of games then I wouldn't be surprised if he came in. Thankfully the HC quarters aren't til April so Cockerill can hold him back and still give him enough games to get his match fitness back for that game because Tigers will need him if they are going to have any chance.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Manu fit in Summer and fit long term and getting club time is far more important than what he could add to this 6N now

Agreed, give him time.

Its next year that matters imo.

Wow this really is an agreeable thread isnt it...  

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow this really is an agreeable thread isnt it...  

The whole of V2 will be like this once we get those teams from up North out of the Jeff.   

Worcester isn't very far North...

It is in rugby terms.

See now we are arguing!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Worcester isn't very far North...

As far North as I like to go 'ooh arrr'!

Leicester is further north than Worcester   

Can we hurry up and fill this 'agreeable' thread so we can start a new one about how boring Ireland are...

us Irish have mostly gone already it seems on account of how boringly nice it is here.

geoff999rugby wrote:Leicester is further north than Worcester   

But I don't like going there!   

SecretFly wrote:us Irish have mostly gone already it seems on account of how boringly nice it is here.

It's OK, things will spice up as we get more nervous!