England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:POM was lucky Wayne Barnes was in 'understanding' mode last week.

He (POM) and the Irish in general need to stop bending the ref's ear. It's going to end badly soon. Joubert really should have stood up to them better the week before. Saying 'you need to stop them shouting at me' is not the sign of a strong ref.

It's one thing having a go at the ref when you're winning. When they're on the back foot against England I think we'll see a bit of marching back 10 yards and possibly a few cards.

Believe.

Trouble is Barnes could do nothing against POM because he had failed to penalize Phillips for far worse earlier
To have done so would have been very inconsistant and opened up an accusation of bias
He should have pinged Philips earlier - as he didn't he made a rod for his own back

I agree. POM and Phillips seem to be cut from the same cloth so Barnes should have been tougher.

Farrell missing easy kicks is becoming a problem. He needs to knuckle down if he wants to keep his place, as Ford is improving his kicking success rate% as well as his all round game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

England are a fast and confident side.  England have an engine that seems to last way beyond the required 80 minutes (impressive - said so on quite a few threads without prompting over the last few weeks)  Pace and England have been impressive, because it is sustained!

Secret Fly

Yes maybe they are the above...however for all that they are also worryingly inefficient at taking advantage of their territorial and forward power...ie SCORING TRIES.

Also Farrell has a worrying regularity of missing kicks for England...something he needs to shake off quickly aswell.

Perhaps...but that's a good tempo to get into a rhythm with for a start. Then work out what's going wrong in the little facets around it. Lancaster has a blueprint that is hard to keep up with for a start...then honing it will be his homework through this 6N. The idea of having that forward momentum as you say and then taking the choice to drop-kick a goal rather than push on with the momentum shows me that just perhaps tactics are a little too conservative at times when the weapon is there, ready and primed to push further.

Ireland have been 100% more successful than England so far. England lost to last years 6th place and Ireland beat last years 1st place.

Besides the HEC is at a level close to international level (and probably exceeds it compared to a lot of the 6 nations games). So Schmidt is very experienced at that level but Lancasters main experience is with Leeds.

So Ireland all the way. Unless England get lucky with the ref and he suits their cheating playing style rather than Ireland's.

Cyril wrote:
I agree. POM and Phillips seem to be cut from the same cloth so Barnes should have been tougher.

POM said "Sir" to Barnes, Cyril. That must rise him higher in your estimation than Phillips, surely?

Who is himself higher that Hartley who called Barnes something else entirely.

How many times did Barnes have to say 'stop' to POM before being able to get a word in edgeways?

"Sir, I'll stop talkin' when I want to, Sir. Sir, make me shut up. Sir, I dare you to give me a yellow."

No. All I can see there is continuing respect for the ref

lostinwales wrote:How many times did Barnes have to say 'stop' to POM before being able to get a word in edgeways?

You can't teach Pork!

lostinwales wrote:How many times did Barnes have to say 'stop' to POM before being able to get a word in edgeways?

Gaelic is POM's Native Language. He's only learning English.

Scrumpy wrote:

lostinwales wrote:How many times did Barnes have to say 'stop' to POM before being able to get a word in edgeways?

You can't teach Pork!

Over-hyping POM there, Scrumpy??? Don't you start.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:How many times did Barnes have to say 'stop' to POM before being able to get a word in edgeways?

Gaelic is POM's Native Language.  He's only learning English.

You are saying there is a difference between being able to speak English and understand it?

I'm saying .... I'm saying don't take me so seriously. I'll tell you when I'm being serious.

You cannot be seri.....

I actually thought that England looked out on their feet for the last 10 mins or so against France and always felt that France could take advantage. I've felt for the last couple of years that Wales have had a big advantage in the fitness stakes, with the other sides all pretty similar in their wake. I still think that is the case, but that they were well and truly dominated by Ireland and had lost the fight to take the advantage in the latter part of the game.

Miss Hasett

I think thats because they were forced to chase the game after the quick fire two from France so early in the game. The same as against.

England the fittest looking side for me (in terms of sustained pace for longer in each game)

Maybe I'm wrong, only the rest of the 6N will decide - but for now, they look best conditioned.  The English though should just hope this is scientifically paced from Lancaster or they might suffer some consequences of fatigue later down the line if they are just being let fly through each and every game..

SecretFly wrote:England the fittest looking side for me (in terms of sustained pace for longer in each game)

Maybe I'm wrong, only the rest of the 6N will decide - but for now, they look best conditioned.  The English though should just hope this is scientifically paced from Lancaster or they might suffer some consequences of fatigue later down the line if they are just being let fly through each and every game..

I liked the other comment a few days ago about England's techie space food diet and regime.
Whereas the Paddies (I am I allowed to say that ?) condition up, on spuds and guinness.
Made I larff. Ireland have sharp quick young backs, but maybe the pack will tire a bit ? England also have Dan Cole who looks a bit like he is on that Irish diet.

Lancaster has Cole specifically on that spuds and Guinness diet; but since it's in a tube, Dan doesn't know it - he thinks he's getting what everyone else has

Dan is being fed the Irish diet to beat the Irish at their own game - afterall, Best, Healy and POM are on it.  It creates an inner rage and can have side-effects of talking too much to an impatient ref.

Beware mixing spuds and Guinness! Not for the faint hearted.

 I'll have the same as he had then !

If the Ireland pack tire they will be subbed. POC, ireland captain was subbed off at 55 minutes v Wales because he wasnt getting round the park enough. Schmidt also brought on a whole new front row around the 60 minute mark. There were 5 or six subs in the fowards in total without loss of momentum.

No problem. If our lineout is working faultlessly for 60 minutes, then we will bring on Tom Youngs.

HammerofThunor wrote:Ireland have been 100% more successful than England so far. England lost to last years 6th place and Ireland beat last years 1st place.

Besides the HEC is at a level close to international level (and probably exceeds it compared to a lot of the 6 nations games). So Schmidt is very experienced at that level but Lancasters main experience is with Leeds.

So Ireland all the way. Unless England get lucky with the ref and he suits their cheating playing style rather than Ireland's.

was this posted as a bet? do you have a grudge against lancaster for some reason, didnt do a good enough job or did too good a job at leeds perhaps?

cause your post is a bit silly. Schmidt has 5 games experience of international rugby, SL has 24 games of international experience and a 15-1-8 record, including 12 games against SH sides. Schmidt has 5 games experience and a 3-0-2 record.

and HEC is not international rugby. as the vast dichotomy between region/province and national team performance in the cases of wales and ireland show.

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ireland have been 100% more successful than England so far. England lost to last years 6th place and Ireland beat last years 1st place.

Besides the HEC is at a level close to international level (and probably exceeds it compared to a lot of the 6 nations games). So Schmidt is very experienced at that level but Lancasters main experience is with Leeds.

So Ireland all the way. Unless England get lucky with the ref and he suits their cheating playing style rather than Ireland's.

was this posted as a bet? do you have a grudge against lancaster for some reason, didnt do a good enough job or did too good a job at leeds perhaps?

cause your post is a bit silly. Schmidt has 5 games experience of international rugby, SL has 24 games of international experience and a 15-1-8 record, including 12 games against SH sides. Schmidt has 5 games experience and a 3-0-2 record.

and HEC is not international rugby. as the vast dichotomy between region/province and national team performance in the cases of wales and ireland show.

Maybe Hammer is simply counter-psyching the Irish psyching clowns on this thread - of which I'm a paid up member Anyway, we all know not a word between us is going to influence a player or a move...but it's a curious kinda fun anyway to say the Irish are going to smash and grab...Smash and Grab. It might be crud...but it sure sounds good in print

quinsforever wrote:

and HEC is not international rugby. as the vast dichotomy between region/province and national team performance in the cases of wales and ireland show.

Not last week (with finally a field-working and plotting Irish coach!) or last year (with a winding down office one)  
The Irish when coached well (ah la Gatland with his crew) showed on the scoreboard their HEC form v Welsh players HEC form.  Not Welsh tiredness.  Irish win.

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ireland have been 100% more successful than England so far. England lost to last years 6th place and Ireland beat last years 1st place.

Besides the HEC is at a level close to international level (and probably exceeds it compared to a lot of the 6 nations games). So Schmidt is very experienced at that level but Lancasters main experience is with Leeds.

So Ireland all the way. Unless England get lucky with the ref and he suits their cheating playing style rather than Ireland's.

was this posted as a bet? do you have a grudge against lancaster for some reason, didnt do a good enough job or did too good a job at leeds perhaps?

cause your post is a bit silly. Schmidt has 5 games experience of international rugby, SL has 24 games of international experience and a 15-1-8 record, including 12 games against SH sides. Schmidt has 5 games experience and a 3-0-2 record.

and HEC is not international rugby. as the vast dichotomy between region/province and national team performance in the cases of wales and ireland show.

I agree. Everyone knows that Schmidt is a good coach, but SL is a decent coach too and has far more experience at international level. The game will be won by whichever team wins most of it's individual battles. England have played pretty well in their away games, I still think home advantage will be decisive.

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but ESPN are reporting that Webber has picked up an injury on the weekend. He's done his ankle in, no break but they have no news on how long he is out.

Obviously this wasn't going to impact the starting 15 but he could've, and maybe should've in my mind, come into consideration for the bench slot.

I guess Youngs it is

jamesandimac wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but ESPN are reporting that Webber has picked up an injury on the weekend.  He's done his ankle in, no break but they have no news on how long he is out.

Obviously this wasn't going to impact the starting 15 but he could've, and maybe should've in my mind, come into consideration for the bench slot.  

I guess Youngs it is

Dave Ward

Ward was doing his best impression of Tom Youngs at the weekend, threw some stinkers.

I do like him though, real terrier at the breakdown.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ward was doing his best impression of Tom Youngs at the weekend, threw some stinkers.

I do like him though, real terrier at the breakdown.

That he did :/ we were generally bloody awful, Mo excepted

its a shame really because I was hoping Webber would be given a shot as I think his basic hooking skills are a lot better than Youngs' and it would a least allowed England to continue to build momentum and pressure against Ireland once Hartley goes off.

Don't get me wrong though I do think Youngs is a very good rugby player, and he wouldn't have gone on the Lions tour if he wasn't. I just don't think his core skills are up to scratch at the moment for international rugby.

I'm not 100% sure on Ward myself. From what I've seen of him, a granted that isn't a lot, he tends to go very well against the weaker premiership teams but then when he comes up against one of the better teams, al la the Saints, he struggles.

I think with Webbers injury theres no way the next in line, which based off the Saxons game is Ward, will get a sniff at the 16 shirt and considering his age and the other options in front of him like Youngs and Hartley calling Ward up to the 6N training squad to just hold a tackle bag would be a waste of both his and Englands time. To that end maybe Lancaster should look at promoting a young gun like George into the Squad to get him some exposure to that environment, have a closer look at him and bring his game on more, much in the same way as he has done with other junior players?

Apologies I thought Ward was a lot older than he is.....26 isn't that old. But I still stand by what I said

Youngs need to be sent back to Tigers, he's nowhere near International class. We can't keep on giving him chances, he throwing is a disgrace.

Get one of the youngsters involved like George, at least he can hit his jumpers.

This used to be easy. I have always been a bit of an anyone but England boy, but now I am genuinely torn. I am used to the English, well being English, but the Irish well being Irish, with all the Drico, this and Heiny that, well are probably even more annoying.

How about a draw, now that would suit everyone

Haha the amount of bitter welsh fans on these boards is crazy. Nobody else seems to be anywhere near this bad!

times article interview with lancaster

"A fortnight ago, Stuart Lancaster, the England head coach, was accused of being rugby’s version of the Tinkerman. Now, heading into the third round of RBS Six Nations Championship matches, his first XV seems so settled that the best chance of any tinkering being made is if one of them is injured in a friendly against a Loughborough University side this morning.
Some may suggest that Loughborough will provide a better workout than England got at Murrayfield last weekend. Lancaster, though, has no replacements available; the rest of the squad have been sent back to play for their clubs at the weekend.
Not since the inaugural Six Nations, in 2000, have England named the same team three matches in succession. Yet although a settled team have an air of strength, selection for this England squad becomes nicely complicated with Marland Yarde and Ben Foden due back from injury in a week’s time.
Joel Tomkins, who was a fixture at outside centre in the autumn internationals, is a fortnight ahead of them, but such is the competition for places, he has fallen back in the pecking order.
After training today at the National Football Centre at St George’s Park, near Burton upon Trent, the team will get the cotton-wool treatment and be sent home for a weekend off.
Meanwhile, various players from the Celtic nations have been back all week with their French clubs, possibly to play in the Top 14 at the weekend. Lancaster relishes the control he has over his men and the advantage it gives him.
He has already started to ponder, hypothetically, his World Cup squad. He has gone as far as studying squads for past World Cups and his planning is so advanced that he believes he already has a firm idea of the 40 players who will be slimmed down to 30 for the home World Cup in 19 months’ time.
“We can see the cohesion developing,” he said yesterday. “But there’s still plenty to play for.” The most there is to play for, it seems, is a place on the bench.
Lancaster also has in mind his ultimate England starting XV with everyone fit and competing for places. The past fortnight, he said, has certainly changed that.
The return of injured players also underlines a growing strength in depth, as did the pleasure that Lancaster experienced last week when observing the strength of his B-list back division.
“We had a training session the other day and I looked at the team that were starting against Scotland and I looked at the team that were training against them and it was a pretty good team,” he said. “If you went Ben Youngs, George Ford, Kyle Eastmond, Brad Barritt, Chris Ashton, Alex Goode at No 15 and Anthony Watson on the other wing — that’s a pretty good back line and the same with the forwards.”
The danger with a group so settled in such a manner that those outside it may see their England hopes as sliding gradually away from them.
Lancaster said, therefore, that he spends more time managing those outside his team than those in it, and he name-checked Freddie Burns, the Gloucester fly half, who has slipped down the ranks.
“I had a long conversation with Freddie about it to reassure him that we still have trust in him,” Lancaster said. “Whenever he comes into our camp, the slate is clean. He knows that every time he comes in, he is being assessed. As I said to him: we have not lost faith in him or anyone else. We know that he is a good player. But equally he knows that whether you are top or bottom of the league, if you are fly half, you have to be able to control that game and manage the game and get the best out of those around you.”
In the meantime, while Burns and others fight for those starting spots, Lancaster and his first XV are focusing on the Ireland team who they will play a week on Saturday. Lancaster described Ireland yesterday as “the most complete side, definitely” [in the Six Nations], then launched into a long discourse on their many qualities.
One advantage England have not had at their disposal yet in this championship is Twickenham. Ireland will be their first home fixture. “It’s a hugely positive factor for me,” Lancaster said. One of his players, he said, told him he felt that Twickenham gave him a 20 per cent performance improvement. “And I agree with that,” he added.
- Stuart Lancaster sought yesterday to absolve Tom Youngs, the England hooker, from responsibility for the missed lineouts when he went on as a replacement for Dylan Hartley in the second half against Scotland on Saturday. Lancaster said: “When we looked at it, certainly the forwards felt that they let Tom down. It wasn’t Tom’s poor throwing. There was definitely some inaccurate lifting and miscommunication in the call. It appeared to be his fault, when we don’t believe it was.”

So is that Attwood's fault maybe?

8 weeks for Webber, so there goes his 6 Nations and another missed opportunity. The Telegraph did note that David Paice has just returned to playing, so maybe he would be in line for a swift return by bypassing the Saxons. To me that is a regression if it does occur and I hope Lancaster is more forward thinking than that.

Lancaster is such a do gooder, desperate not to blame anyone so how is anyone accountable for their performance…..no personal responsibility, all on the team's shoulders, fine until players start to hide behind it.

Or it could just be that it wasn't Youngs' fault on this occasion?

Also to me it seems he's saying to Burns that as a 10 he has to take responsibility, and that SL doesn't currently feel he is for Glaws, so I don't really understand your point Scratch.

Scratch wrote:Lancaster is such a do gooder, desperate not to blame anyone so how is anyone accountable for their performance…..no personal responsibility, all on the team's shoulders, fine until players start to hide behind it.

I wouldn't take public statements like that as any real indicator of what's going on in team meetings. They're always going to try to show a united front, even if there have been frank behind the scenes discussions about who was at fault.

I think Lancaster has done a great job.he has taken a dysfunctional team where no new folk had been blooded and made a team of them and has blooded youngsters but without exposing the core of the team. He is clearly the best coach in the 6N altho Schmidt may overtake him

he is the best asset England have and I think he may be exposed in this 6N but he has the team in rude health for the WC. I still have ireland as faves tho

TJ wrote:I think Lancaster has done a great job.he has taken a dysfunctional team where no new folk had been blooded and made a team of them and has blooded youngsters but without exposing the core of the team. He is clearly the best coach in the 6N altho Schmidt may overtake him

he is the best asset England have and I think he may be exposed in this 6N but he has the team in rude health for the WC.  I still have ireland as faves tho

based on what?

Scratch wrote:Lancaster is such a do gooder, desperate not to blame anyone so how is anyone accountable for their performance…..no personal responsibility, all on the team's shoulders, fine until players start to hide behind it.

Just remember things said in the locker room are usually very different than what is said publicly.

One day I'd love to see a backline of

9. Care, 10. Farrell, 11. Yarde, 12. Eastmond, 13. Tuilagi, 14. Wade, 15. Brown

Not sure if it would ever occur but if the pack got some domination then those backs would definitely finish their chances!

Lancaster also has in mind his ultimate England starting XV with everyone fit and competing for places. The past fortnight, he said, has certainly changed that.

I guess that would now be:

1. Corbisiero, 2. Hartley, 3. Cole, 4. Lawes, 5. Launchberry, 6. Wood, 7. Robshaw, 8. Vunipola, 9. Care/Youngs(on form), 10. Farrell, 11. Yarde/May (Form), 12. Twelvetrees, 13. Tuilagi, 14. Ashton/Wade (form), 15. Brown

So really just 9 and wings that are open to debate.

On top of that we could still field another team consisting of capped players:

1. Marler/Mako, 2.Webber/Youngs, 3. Wilson, 4. Parling, 5. Attwood, 6. Haskall, 7. Kvesic, 8. Morgan, 9. Youngs/Care, 10. Ford/Burns, 11. May/Yarde, 12. Barrett, 13. Burrell, 14. Ashton/Wade, 15. Foden/Goode

So many players!!!!!!!!!

I think Burrell deserves to be in the 1st team

yappysnap wrote:On top of that we could still field another team consisting of capped players:

1. Marler/Mako, 2.Webber/Youngs, 3. Wilson, 4. Parling, 5. Attwood, 6. Haskall, 7. Kvesic, 8. Morgan, 9. Youngs/Care, 10. Ford/Burns, 11. May/Yarde, 12. Barrett, 13. Burrell, 14. Ashton/Wade, 15. Foden/Goode

So many players!!!!!!!!!

Hey!!! Wait up now! We only want to see 15 on the field at any time or we're not going to agree to play the game at all.

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:On top of that we could still field another team consisting of capped players:

1. Marler/Mako, 2.Webber/Youngs, 3. Wilson, 4. Parling, 5. Attwood, 6. Haskall, 7. Kvesic, 8. Morgan, 9. Youngs/Care, 10. Ford/Burns, 11. May/Yarde, 12. Barrett, 13. Burrell, 14. Ashton/Wade, 15. Foden/Goode

So many players!!!!!!!!!

Hey!!!  Wait up now!  We only want to see 15 on the field at any time or we're not going to agree to play the game at all.

Spoilsport. Thought we had solved our backup hooker problem. Webber to do the set piece and Youngs to run around causing mayhem in the loose