Englands Tour of NZ - The Politics

First topic message reminder :

This thread has become a political thread so we'll make it that.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Well, as a Quins fan who has thought he should be playing 15 for England for ages, I'm biased, but yes. Definitely, especially when you see how non-aggressive and almost shy he is off the pitch

Lot's of talk of Sarries, Saints or Tigers being the worst sides to see in the final in terms of of missing players but Quins would probably be top of my list at the moment if they could sneak a play-off spot.

Marler - Against NZ getting the upperhand in the scrum could be vital especially if we have a new FH in Ford. With Corbs likely absent Marler is the better scrummager between Mako and himself. If Quins and Sarries make the final we'd likely be looking at Mullan starting LH which could neuter any scrum advantage we may get at full strength.

Robshaw - Not really any replacement with Kvesic playing poorly and Fraser injured. Wood to 7 would probably be our best bet but then leaves a big decision for who steps in at 6.

Care - Especially with Youngs out of form losing him would completely change the way we attacked in this 6N

Brown - Our best players of the AI's and 6N by a distance

Not the same bulk of players missing as from other sides but extremely influential ones for how we are playing at current.

Very good point,Brown care and Robshaw have become the spine of this side.

Basically, let's hope that by a miracle Sale and Wasps make the final then!

Though even then I'd have liked to have been able to bring Wade, Daly and Cips on the tour or at least had the option to

I think Alex Waller will be ahead of Mullan by the summer tour. He's another impressive young LH. Of course that won't help if Saints reach the final.

Leicester and Bath would be ok

A final where we'd lose the first choice replacement as well as starter would be the other big hit.

Sarries vs Quins - Would lose Marler and Mako with Corbs likely gone

Sarries vs Bath - Farrell and Ford - Davey Wilson also a big loss with Cole already out

Tigers vs Saints - Burrell and Tuilagi

Quins vs Saints - Wood and Robshaw

Obviously stretching reality with how the play-offs will likely play out with 1st in table playing vs 4th and 2nd vs 3rd etc. Just some examples though of how losing a couple of players at once could destabalise the side more than losing a batch who we have replacements for.

Lawes is a top example here as he would be a huge loss but we are likely to have Attwood and Launchbury available who could cover well. Whereas we saw what happened this time last year when Billy V and Morgan were missing at the same time - in a way lucky Gloucester aren't near the play-offs in that regard!

DaveM - Agree on Waller would prefer him in the squad to Mullan. Prior to ref shoving incident I'd have preferred to see Brookes backing up Wilson/Cole as well.

http://talksport.com/rugby-union/exclusive-lancaster-reveals-pain-missing-out-six-nations-title-14031683728

Lancaster talks about the NZ tour and his World Cup squad in this Talksport interview.

Well, the series is gone before it starts (NZ massive and deserved favourites anyway).

So it's a development tour. Will watch with interest to see how well we can do, but would have liked a proper series.

The series is not over before it starts! And its not a development tour.

It will more than likely be a Sarries v Saints final unless drastic things happen.

That means for the first test we will lose -

Saints
Lawes, Wood, Hartley, Burrell, Dickson, Foden

Sarries
Farrell, Barritt, Mako, Billy.

We should still be able to put out a strong side...and also a welcome chance to see how the likes of Attwood performs as a starter...etc.

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Launchbury
6 Johnson
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Nowell edges it for me but you could easily pick May / Ashton / Wade...etc
15 Brown

Geordiefalcon why would you not pick Wade? Also what would be your bench?

Is Johnson really the next best 6 after Wood?

Whilst I don't disagree with that I think it's true that we still have problem areas to sort out. During this 6 Nations the pack haven't been as dominant as it needs to be and I think it will struggle against the Saffers in particular. They have been pushed of the ball more than occasionally especially early in games and that can't happen in Cup games if they want to succeed.

In the backs, alternatives to Farrell at 10 need finding and I don't see Ford as being robust enough yet so from that point of view this is a development excercise. I want to see Wade and Yarde out there as they still need to be tested. Nowell might make it but he's got an huge job ahead of him in terms of rapidly maturing before I would feel confident and much as I've defended Ashton in the past I'm no longer sure that he has a place in the squad.

A strong showing out there is crucial for this squad ahead of the RWC and I'm nervous despite the way this squad has grown to date. There's so much more to be done.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon why would you not pick Wade? Also what would be your bench?

Is Johnson really the next best 6 after Wood?

Will Wade be back and have enough game time before the end of the season?

Johnson - NO! Robshaw is but I don't think the Johnson is the 3rd best either. If BV can keep up the fitness levels he showed earlier, I would possibly play him and Morgan, but I would use Morgan in Wood's role due to his speed. I don't think BV can cover the ground like Wood. I suspect that Morgan can't either mind you. Tom gets through an amazing amount of work.

I'm telling you, Slater at 6

aitchw to be honest I think it's good if the forwards haven't been as dominant because it means the backs must take more responsibility. Something I think they have done overall.

Definitely trial by fire for Ford. If I was NZ unsurprisingly I would look to unsettle him. In his little cameo vs Italy he did show the potential people have been hyping him up for though.

NZ away is definitely not somewhere you want to be starting your first match at 10. I think the biggest tests for him will be defensively and goal kicking. Areas I would say that Farrell could be most missed in. Ford does have the potential though - just needs to show it.

Fortunately for Ford he should be helped by the likes of Care and Brown who have performed really well in the 6 nations.

well past it surely we are assuming at the moment that Billy V will not be involved in the first test vs NZ? There is no guarantee of course that Sarries will be in the final but they have to be one of the favourites like Saints.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm telling you, Slater at 6

Not quick enough. Quick for Second Row, but playing him at 6 could be like seeing Lawes there last season. Equally I do not feel his lineout is good enough to play Second Row. He could be a very good number 8 - though in the style of Dean Richards rather than BillyV.

I feel that Slater is a player who can look really good against Premiership (and Heineken) opponents, but without a truly exceptional facet to his game would struggle for England.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon why would you not pick Wade? Also what would be your bench?

Is Johnson really the next best 6 after Wood?

Wasnt sure if Wade will be fit or not Beshocked.

And also...Nowell has his detractors...but i was actually quite impressed with him. I appreciate his lack of tries alarms you...and this is a critical part of a wingers game. But he has been alround very good. Hes gone looking for the ball...hes ran good lines, twice on the weekend he was in great positions but passes to him were attrocious. He has tackled brilliantly...and i just think give him another chance.

Re Johnson.
No i really dont think he is the next best...but who is there. I did forget about Slater...and yes that could definately be an answer. What other options are there?

Gibson playing very well for Tigers by all accounts.
How is Fearns doing?
Mark Wilson has been Mr Consistantly good for us - but is he another Johnson...very good club player not international?
I wouldnt want to move Lauchbury to 6.

Geordiefalcon I thought Nowell was one of the weakest England performers on the weekend.

Most of the good stuff from the England backs has not involved the two English wingers.

I suppose I have been quite a bit of a   I just feel it's one area that Lancaster hasn't quite sorted out.

Fearns is injured.

One other 6 I can think of is Jackson Wray but not sure he's big/powerful enough plus if Sarries do make the final he will be missing.

GF,

Gibson is doing well and he fits the way Tigers like to set up the pack. However he is really a poor mans Tom Croft - slightly more lightweight, not quite as quick, not quite as good in the lineout, not quite as good at cover tackling etc etc. So he has been excellent for us, but no way could I suggest he step up.

I can understand your arguement regarding the Wingers.

May for all i rate him highly...hasnt done it for me at all this 6n....and if Yarde...or indeed Wade were back firing then i would have one of them in.

I agree Nowell has made a couple of errors...but he's never let that affect him...and he HAS shown the attributes above. Hes ran good support lines, he's gone looking for the ball, he's tackled very well. Not perfect performances but lots to work with. Id give him another chance...but thats just me.

Yarde starts, then choice between Wade and Nowell for the other wing. (Ashton probably being involved in the final for the first test.) Id probably choose Nowell for a bit more defensive security with so many England players missing due to the final.

6 is an issue...indeed both flanker slots are. The 7's - Fraser seems permanently injured, Kvesic not firing, Saull injured, Welch not quite international level...and 6's well as above.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I thought Nowell was one of the weakest England performers on the weekend.

Most of the good stuff from the England backs has not involved the two English wingers.
I suppose I have been quite a bit of a   I just feel it's one area that Lancaster hasn't quite sorted out.

Fearns is injured.

One other 6 I can think of is Jackson Wray but not sure he's big/powerful enough plus if Sarries do make the final he will be missing.

Exactly Beshocked.
They are just not yet getting quality service, but there again still learning the ropes at this level, so they could still yet click.
Ashton used to know where to 'be' in his earlier outings with England. Not sure what happened to him.
Did he decline ? Or did England's patterns change ? Who was the last effective England winger we had ? (Ashton apart).

Geordiefalcon in terms of tackling well who would you say he has been better than in the English backline?

I would say he is certainly behind Burrell,Twelvetrees and Farrell in that department. Probably behind Care and Brown too. Would concede he has been more effective than May though.

I just feel with Nowell, It's been too soon to throw him in.

Should one really be picking a wing based primarily on his tackling?

Looking at who plays 6 at each club-

Bath- Fearns is injured. Garvey would be ideal but is persona non grata.
Exeter- TJ will tour, and is solid but not who I really want starting vs NZ. Ewers is raw and whilst he could theoretically be devastating he also looked like he wasn't ready for the Saxons
Gloucester- Kvesic could push Robshaw to 6. He's had a poor season but his form is improving right now. I'd rather have him on the bench as he does cover 8.
Harlequins- Robshaw obviously already there. Not a chance Guest goes and he's not an international 6. Wallace could push Robshaw to 6 but he also looked unsteady for the Saxons and has had fluctuating form this season. The young ones aren't ready
Leicester- Croft could be back and Croftshaw has functioned in the past. Slater is said to be too slow, so maybe lock-6 cover off the bench is the most he'll do but I like him. Waldrum is a nono. Is Gibson powerful enough?
London Irish- nobody really unless Skivington comes in and one of the locks plays 6 but not ideal
London Wasps- launch can play 6 but then we lose him in the second row. Haskell is an option. Sam Jones can play 6, think he's more of a 7 and still raw but looked good for the Baabaas.
Newcastle- is Wilson capable of stepping up? Welch could push Robshaw to 6 but highly unlikely. Saul hasn't fulfilled his young promise and York has struggled since moving
Northampton - probs missing. If they are there, we have Wood and Clarke so pretty much solves the problem
Sale- Gaskell in theory, but, no. Seymour could push Robshaw to 6, very unlikely.
Saracens- likely to make final, otherwise Billy V and Wray and Fraser are all viable options. Billy a better 8 though. Wray IMO probably not an international. Fraser has been injured but looks a great 7. Kruis could make it as lock-6 cover I suppose
Worcester- Abbott and Betty are solid club men but not internationals

Who else is there on the wing barring Nowell and May who we'd be confident in giving a massive improvement? These 2 could be around for a good few years yet so we may benefit throwing them in now for what they will (hopefully) learn.

gregortree wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I thought Nowell was one of the weakest England performers on the weekend.

Most of the good stuff from the England backs has not involved the two English wingers.
I suppose I have been quite a bit of a   I just feel it's one area that Lancaster hasn't quite sorted out.

Fearns is injured.

One other 6 I can think of is Jackson Wray but not sure he's big/powerful enough plus if Sarries do make the final he will be missing.

Exactly Beshocked.
They are just not yet getting quality service, but there again still learning the ropes at this level, so they could still yet click.
Ashton used to know where to 'be' in his earlier outings with England. Not sure what happened to him.
Did he decline ? Or did England's patterns change ? Who was the last effective England winger we had ? (Ashton apart).

Ugo or Cueto

What happened to Ugo ?

gregortree wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I thought Nowell was one of the weakest England performers on the weekend.

Most of the good stuff from the England backs has not involved the two English wingers.
I suppose I have been quite a bit of a   I just feel it's one area that Lancaster hasn't quite sorted out.

Fearns is injured.

One other 6 I can think of is Jackson Wray but not sure he's big/powerful enough plus if Sarries do make the final he will be missing.

Exactly Beshocked.
They are just not yet getting quality service, but there again still learning the ropes at this level, so they could still yet click.
Ashton used to know where to 'be' in his earlier outings with England. Not sure what happened to him.
Did he decline ? Or did England's patterns change ? Who was the last effective England winger we had ? (Ashton apart).

I suppose we have to wonder whether it is Lancaster/the game plan's fault for the ineffectiveness of the wingers or the wingers themselves.

It's just strange that Burrell can take a good pass from Care for example to break the line to score a try, ditto Brown getting a good pass off Farrell to score a try yet most of the time Nowell and May have not done this. Farrell ran a good line to score by a good pass from Care, Manu comes on and takes a flat pass from Farrell to score etc. Burrell does a good pass to Brown which sees Brown scoring..., Brown making a good pass to Care which sees him scoring...even Ford coming on breaks the line and sets up Robshaw!

It's almost as if England have been playing without the two wingers!

Disagree I think Nowell and May have been getting good ball but have not made the most of it. I wouldnt say they have been running as effective lines as the other England backs.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon in terms of tackling well who would you say he has been better than in the English backline?

I would say he is certainly behind Burrell,Twelvetrees and Farrell in that department. Probably behind Care and Brown too. Would concede he has been more effective than May though.

I just feel with Nowell, It's been too soon to throw him in.

Should one really be picking a wing based primarily on his tackling?

In terms of tackling he's barely missed a tackle. The odd one maybe...but in his wingers role he's been fine. High balls yes not perfect but can be worked on.

No a winger shouldnt be picked on tackling...it should be his attacking prowess..but Ashton was showing zero ability in any of those areas so Nowell showed more solidity defensively at least.

Maybe it was too soon to throw him in the set up and if Wade, Yarde were fit, and Ashton showed any kind of form on the international stage he wouldnt have been there.....but he's there now and i just dont see the point in simply discarding him now.

Ashton would probably look good with Englands new attacking style...so i would take him after the final.

gregortree wrote:What happened to Ugo ?

He got moved to FB and it didn't work, so then he wasn't picked at wing (he was playing FB for the club for a bit too). Then he lost his pace. Still a great defender and great kick chaser but he doesn't trouble defences anymore

CQJ, thanks

Geordiefalcon with an England side showing more freedom and confidence in attack I would be interested to see what Ashton could do. Perhaps he wouldn't be any better but could be. One of Ashton's strengths is running good support lines and being in the right position. Most of England's tries have been from running efficient lines. They have been simple and effective.

It's not been individual brilliance from England in general (okay a bit from Brown but he's been put in good space).

Talk of development or damage-limitation tours so close to a home RWC is tantamount to throwing in the towel. Stewie has a problem as IMO he has left it a bit too late to develop a settled and good enough side to win the RWC ’15, plus the team is carrying a few players who will not be part of any series-winning side (whether it be the NZ tour, a GS or the RWC). Tom Y, TJ, Nowell and May can ‘do a job’ but are not good enough to win anything, and they weaken England. The 2 wingers may come good sometime in the future but unlikely for this world cup. It doesn’t help that players who could improve the touring side may be injured or still recovering form: Croft, Haskell, Yarde, Wade, Kvesic, Ashton, Webber (?), Fearns (?). And is it just me, or did the current English set-piece scrum actually look one of the weakest in the 6N? I know we’re missing Corbs & Cole but if this isn’t sorted we will struggle to progress further than the quarters, if that.

To be fair to Nowell in the last few games he too was starting to run those lines...and against Italy i counted 2 times where he had ran excellent lines but was let down by a pass going way above his head and another poor pass to him. Nothing he can do about that.

England have impressed me with their improvement in the attacking area...something we have all been hugely critical of. It says something when i was dissapppoint to see a player being subbed for Manu...as i was when Burrell went off.
But it bodes well for the future.

Its taken time to develop this...and hopefully we can get our wingers more involved and effective.

But in Wade, Yarde, May, Nowell, Ashton...maybe Benjamin, Kibirige coming through etc ...we have a good crop of wingers.

I think we would all agree that it is very rare that new, young blood bursts onto the International stage fully fledged and up to scratch, the trick is to recognise which of them will make it and which won't and what the best path is for them to achieve it. Nowell I can see the point in keeping in to see where it leads, May needs to go back to his club with clear goals to achieve before he's considered again. Nowell finally put himself in position to take the try scoring pass in Itally and will have taken heart from it. May continued his cross field meanderings leading to getting caught in bad positions when he could and should have chosen his moment to take the contact when he saw there was no way forward. Wingers are expected to do far more than just hang out there waiting for the killer pass and they both have work to do if they really want the shirt.

To see England backs scoring tries with little input from the wings is at the same time reassuring and disappointing. We need the sparkle that a Wade potentially provides.

Whilst there is strength in depth developing across the park we still have a way to go. 11 and 14, 10, 6 and 7, all need sorting either for a starting slot or back up.

Great progress so far but so much to do before next year.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Talk of development or damage-limitation tours so close to a home RWC is tantamount to throwing in the towel. Stewie has a problem as IMO he has left it a bit too late to develop a settled and good enough side to win the RWC ’15, plus the team is carrying a few players who will not be part of any series-winning side (whether it be the NZ tour, a GS or the RWC). Tom Y, TJ, Nowell and May can ‘do a job’ but are not good enough to win anything, and they weaken England. The 2 wingers may come good sometime in the future but unlikely for this world cup. It doesn’t help that players who could improve the touring side may be injured or still recovering form: Croft, Haskell, Yarde, Wade, Kvesic, Ashton, Webber (?), Fearns (?). And is it just me, or did the current English set-piece scrum actually look one of the weakest in the 6N? I know we’re missing Corbs & Cole but if this isn’t sorted we will struggle to progress further than the quarters, if that.

Well, we managed with a weak scrum in the 6N. Scrummaging is not a NZ or Aussie strength so the only side I'd be even mildly concerned about in that regards would be SA and we will see how we do vs them soon enough. We'll be fine. We can win a test at least in NZ and I think we have a pretty settled squad for the most part. And I'm not sure how many of those players would improve our first 23 at least either

Nowell finally put himself in position to take the try scoring pass in Itally and will have taken heart from it

He could very easily have had a hattrick if players had passed the ball properly...to his hands!

Geordiefalcon surely he could position himself better to take the pass, or better yet catch them! I don't think the passes were so bad that he could not catch them. Not every single pass is going to go immaculately to his hands. Other players didn't seem to have a problem taking potential try scoring passes did they?

This game should have been a winger's dream - fill the boots!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Nowell finally put himself in position to take the try scoring pass in Itally and will have taken heart from it

He could very easily have had a hattrick if players had passed the ball properly...to his hands!

I am not sure that either pass was meant for Nowell, with Burrell's pass, Brown was outside him and the pass would have been just about perfect. With 36, I think it was Mako outside him and again the pass was perfect for him. Only my opinion, but I think that Nowell just got in the way and potentially stopped two scores, certainly one with Mako from 2 yards out in space and moving. He would probably have been the beneficiary of Brown getting the ball as there was only one defender to beat and I assume Brown would have popped the ball back inside.

Oh come on Beshocked...one of the passes was sent way over his head! The other behind him.

Nothing to do with bad positioning its bad passing!

I appreciate you might not like him, but dont come up with things like that.

Geordie, that's why he needs to be kept in the squad, he'll get better and with luck the service will improve and stick. Of the 2 he's way the most promising right now but we still need other options.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Nowell finally put himself in position to take the try scoring pass in Itally and will have taken heart from it

He could very easily have had a hattrick if players had passed the ball properly...to his hands!

I am not sure that either pass was meant for Nowell, with Burrell's pass, Brown was outside him and the pass would have been just about perfect. With 36, I think it was Mako outside him and again the pass was perfect for him. Only my opinion, but I think that Nowell just got in the way and potentially stopped two scores, certainly one with Mako from 2 yards out in space and moving. He would probably have been the beneficiary of Brown getting the ball as there was only one defender to beat and I assume Brown would have popped the ball back inside.

Look im not saying Nowell is the best winger ever...or that he should definately be ahead of Wade or yarde or Ashton...im just saying dont see whats not there.

The passes were meant for Nowell...and were poorly executed...simple as that. When they finally did get the pass right...(Mr Brown) then he scored...

I think both Nowell and May are trying a little too hard at the moment, forcing things a bit. Both are confident players, once they settle down, back themselves and improve their decision making at international level they'll provide two more very good wing options.

We're in a good place at the moment. i can't remember where there was so little disagreement about places. The pack, half backs and Brown are nailed on for pretty much everyone and it seems to be any 2 of 3 for midfield. Wings and replacements are the main talking points and personally I'm happy we've got NZ coming up as they all should be tested to the full.

I'd say NZ are probably one of the best technical scrummaging sides out their, they play South Africa yearly and I can't remember them ever being walked over.

We did have a few issues this 6N's there and you can bet that their coaches will have spotted us issues, mainly with timing on the hit, hooking the ball and dealing with opposition props holding on to the sleeve/armpit area on the bind.

yappysnap wrote:I'd say NZ are probably one of the best technical scrummaging sides out their, they play South Africa yearly and I can't remember them ever being walked over.

We did have a few issues this 6N's there and you can bet that their coaches will have spotted us issues, mainly with timing on the hit, hooking the ball and dealing with opposition props holding on to the sleeve/armpit area on the bind.

They are very good at dealing with whatever is thrown their way but don't dominate teams with the scrum like SA or Argentina can, in my opinion. We certainly won't dominate them, but I don't they will do the same to us or particularly aim to. Our scrum wasn't at it's best this 6N but when it was under pressure against Ireland we coped, and we struck back against Wales and improved throughout against Italy and beat Scotland up front. And we have coped with Argentina, NZ and South Africa fine in the recent past

Hmmm a scrum that copes and 2 wingers that aren't too bad for new boys. And a RWC just round the corner. Coping is fine, if you want to come second. Our scrum will come back to bite us in the RWC if we don't improve. We need to wrap Cole in cotton wool til we need him. And keep Corbs for the big games. Oh and replace TY.

Our scrum didn't cope v Ireland. But somehow we won by getting battered in that area. Huge pluses in that regard(have to take the positive ). No other scrum was close to the Irish in the 6n's though.. Nz's will not be as good either..

... Because the Irish had the decency to kick the ball back to us... Usually pretty badly and handing us possession we didn't seem capable of getting ourselves. Agree though, the positive was toughing out a win with a beaten scrum and struggling at the break down. They let us off the hook really though, I thought.

2014-03-17

mystiroakey wrote:Our scrum didn't cope v Ireland. But somehow we won by getting battered in that area. Huge pluses in that regard(have to take the positive ). No other scrum was close to the Irish in the 6n's though.. Nz's will not be as good either..

"but when it was under pressure against Ireland we coped"

This is what I meant. The scrum was under pressure. The team coped with it and won anyway

I think the breakdown vs Ireland was pretty even tbh

beshocked wrote:

gregortree wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I thought Nowell was one of the weakest England performers on the weekend.

Most of the good stuff from the England backs has not involved the two English wingers.
I suppose I have been quite a bit of a   I just feel it's one area that Lancaster hasn't quite sorted out.

Fearns is injured.

One other 6 I can think of is Jackson Wray but not sure he's big/powerful enough plus if Sarries do make the final he will be missing.

Exactly Beshocked.
They are just not yet getting quality service, but there again still learning the ropes at this level, so they could still yet click.
Ashton used to know where to 'be' in his earlier outings with England. Not sure what happened to him.
Did he decline ? Or did England's patterns change ? Who was the last effective England winger we had ? (Ashton apart).

I suppose we have to wonder whether it is Lancaster/the game plan's fault for the ineffectiveness of the wingers or the wingers themselves.

It's just strange that Burrell can take a good pass from Care for example to break the line to score a try, ditto Brown getting a good pass off Farrell to score a try yet most of the time Nowell and May have not done this. Farrell ran a good line to score by a good pass from Care, Manu comes on and takes a flat pass from Farrell to score etc. Burrell does a good pass to Brown which sees Brown scoring..., Brown making a good pass to Care which sees him scoring...even Ford coming on breaks the line and sets up Robshaw!

It's almost as if England have been playing without the two wingers!

Disagree I think Nowell and May have been getting good ball but have not made the most of it. I wouldnt say they have been running as effective lines as the other England backs.

Beshocked I really think you're on to somthing here;

'I suppose we have to wonder whether it is Lancaster/the game plan's fault for the ineffectiveness of the wingers or the wingers themselves.'

I think maybe all three but definitely the 'game plan', which offers a very narrow attack left or right off the ruck and does not require or even demand the use of the wings. It is a very 'league' based plan that teams such as the AB's will simply go round once they have broken the game up.