Englands Tour of NZ - The Politics

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This thread has become a political thread so we'll make it that.

New Zealand’s last loss at home to the Springboks came in Hamilton in September 2009, when they were beaten 32-29. Obviously keeping that home record intact makes this more important for NZ but that is also the reason why the series result is more likely to be 3-0, especially given NZ will be aware what happened against England in 2002. England has only managed two consecutive victories against NZ. These records matter to the NZ team.

That said, the games in 2012 and 2013 showed that recently there's little to separate the sides so I agree it is NZ who will be wanting to make the point. But it's a rare event where NZ don't have anything to lose and their opposition has the pressure on them to perform because they are the favourites.

I really want to see an alternative 10. Farrell cannot be our only option. His petulance will cost us at some point if not his general lack of vision and creativity.

The whiff of nepotism just will not clear.

Did you watch Farrell play today?

Petulance, maybe. Lack of creativity, you are a bit out of date...

Crikey yes, Farrell is rapidly approaching world class as a FH. He's playing flat, and frankly he's playing beautifully. He's first choice on merit. Ford is very talented, but will do well to displace him in the short to medium term.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Did you watch Farrell play today?

Petulance, maybe. Lack of creativity, you are a bit out of date...

No I don't think so, it's still very much one paced by the numbers stuff. He has real strenghts but his weaknesses limit the side from progressing beyond the laboured play book.

What I'm suggesting is an alternative, a plan B.

Farrell was at fault for a lot of very loopy passes either above players heads or behind them.

He has a lot better vision then he used to and his passing got a lot better as England settled but the first 30ish were fairly sloppy from him.

I think saying Farrell's play is one-paced by the numbers stuff is equivalent to me saying that I've been pretty disappointed with Lawes and Launchbury this 6 Nations........

I think Farrell has had a great 6N, he's really coming on.

Fords little cameo today was impressive to, the boy has real vision.

Dave if you meant that for me I didn't mean that at all. He played really well once we settled but to start with his passing was very poor that's all.

Ford looks good already, made for the big stage. So excited about the summer tour now!

Yep me as well, EnglishReign.

I think England will have taken the most forward out of the Six Nations this year, and hopefully they can impact in some way on the world champions.

Great test, and a far more important part of the year for the English team than the Six Nations.

kingelderfield wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Did you watch Farrell play today?

Petulance, maybe. Lack of creativity, you are a bit out of date...

No I don't think so, it's still very much one paced by the numbers stuff. He has real strenghts but his weaknesses limit the side from progressing beyond the laboured play book.

What I'm suggesting is an alternative, a plan B.

I think you're in the minority mate.

Ford will get his chance.

Farrell is playing very, very well at the moment and getting better.

Cyril wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Did you watch Farrell play today?

Petulance, maybe. Lack of creativity, you are a bit out of date...

No I don't think so, it's still very much one paced by the numbers stuff. He has real strenghts but his weaknesses limit the side from progressing beyond the laboured play book.

What I'm suggesting is an alternative, a plan B.

I think you're in the minority mate.

Ford will get his chance.

Farrell is playing very, very well at the moment and getting better.

Minority/majority.....Its about a realistic appreciation of his strenghts and weaknesses.

I just don't think he's the best 10 in England and if it wasn't for his old man would not be so untouchable.

Someone will get a chance in NZ anyway cause odds are Farrell misses T1

Agree with Farrel. Lacks any real vision or creativity. NZ have 3 better 10's in that respect and coming to NZ with just the basics as 10 will hurt England, will put pressure on the outside backs and any repeat of the Tuilagi onslaught from the earlier match will be unlikely.

France came without their finalists last year for the first test and that ended up being their best result so those sorts of things can happen. .

I think this England team has good strength in depth and blooding new players seems to be working very well. I think just the luck of the bounce and injuries to key players/playing people out of position costs us the win in France.

I have just one request: Please can we leave Jonny May at home? I think he's proven during this 6 Nations that he is not an International-standard winger.

I like may a lot..

loads of potential there for me.

even if people think he only runs sideways , that can still be very effective and aid the expansive game.. He switches it about..

as long as he retains possession he stays on fir me. And i think eventually he will start slipping people down the wings.

Potential is all very well, but until he actually starts producing the goods it's no good as far as I am concerned. Provided that Yarde and Wade are match fit and ready I think that Bomber may start them in NZ.

I know Yarde is back, however any news on Wade?

Last I heard was he'll be back earlier than expected in April. If this gives him enough time i'm not sure.

yappysnap wrote:Farrell was at fault for a lot of very loopy passes either above players heads or behind them.

He has a lot better vision then he used to and his passing got a lot better as England settled but the first 30ish 15/20 were fairly sloppy from him.

To be fair, some of the passing from Care in this period was a bit iffy too.

Now this is not directed at you, yappy, but a general comment:

We all have prejudices, these form early and are hard to shift. We use these prejudices to see the things that confirm what we believe, and ignore the things that do not tally with them. It takes a lot to dispel these prejudices and sometimes we are stubborn and they strengthen in the face of others "fandom". Then any hope of a rational discussion about a player is lost. This happens with many players, but focussing on Owen Farrell:

He is a solid, defensive, goal-kicking, hot-headed 10 with no creativity. Right? Certainly 12 months ago that would have been the impression amongst the majority of England fans, let alone those from other countries. These are views formed very early from when Farrell was new to the team and the team were new to each other. For two seasons it was hard to discern what England's attacking plan was, and Farrell caught much of the flak for this. We ignored the slow ball produced by the pack, we ignored the misfiring scrum halves and we blamed the 10. We wanted flair, we wanted pizazz we wanted anyone but Owen.

Well he was growing as a player, and at first our prejudices were fair. His passing was laboured, especially of his left hand, his vison did seem non-existent. He has though grown as the team has grown. He has demonstrated the ability to create tries with both long (of right hand) and short passes. He is running good support lines, he is making breaks. There is creativity coming into his game in leaps and bounds. For his forwards though the best thing is the more mundane aspects of the game are improving, his tactical kicking has improved out of sight, his touch finders are more aggressive and more reliable, and his goal-kicking in bad conditions is good, in good conditions it is sublime.

In terms of effectiveness Owen Farrell has improved leaps and bounds in the last 12 months. The Lions tour was good for his own personal development, while all around him for England we have players who are now playing at a higher level and he has the chance to direct affairs. There is still much room for improvement, but Farrell is exactly the right player for this team right now. Until the "flair" players can get their basics to the same level as Farrell they do not deserve to overtake him, as they will lose more matches than they win.

You need a real plan B.

If that is Ford, Burns or Cipriani.....you certainly need the alternative because for 1 there is always the consideration of injury and 2 against the better sides, that we will need to beat to win the WC, you will not necessarily have parity in the forwards and so the difference will need to come from elsewhere in the side, primarily from the talent at 10.

This short NZ tour will realistically be our only chance to experiment, however how much we will be able to learn at this stage is hard to say.

Many players will be exhausted after another very long season, though others will be desperate for game time following long term injuries.

For me we have a great first 15- we also have great cover in plenty of positions bar a few key ones.

This team is built around brown, care and Farrell.

Its not about having a plan b for me. As I think the England team can play a variety of ways without the need for other players to change it. Farrell is a soldier and plays how he is set to play each game. People didnt see his flair when he wasnt set to play that way- Now we are seeing glimpses of it when he has a free-er(sp) reign.

I want to see 3 key players that can come in if needed to replace brown, care and Farrell. So we do need to find first choice replacements.

yappysnap wrote:Dave if you meant that for me I didn't mean that at all. He played really well once we settled but to start with his passing was very poor that's all.

It wasn't meant for you.

mystiroakey wrote:

I want to see 3 key players that can come in if needed to replace brown, care and Farrell. So we do need to find first choice replacements.

Farrell I agree with, as there is absolutely no-one with any experience behind him. We do have many-times capped scrum halves and full backs outside of Care and Brown though, whose problems have been more club form and injuries rather than not getting a shot at international level (thinking specifically Youngs and Foden at this point).

Ford will start at least one test in New Zealand if he's fit - no doubt.

tomh the way i am looking at Brown and Care is that it was almost lucky to have the key injuries in those areas or they may not have got the chance.

But I think those 2 have raised the bar and made the places there own now. I want replacements that can make a similar impact. Players like goode and youngs are not in the same league.

Ok I agree with fodden.. Great player and good replacement for brown. But care for me has shown up youngs big time

Taylorman wrote:Agree with Farrel. Lacks any real vision or creativity.

I'm going to be charitable and assume you didn't watch much (any?) of the 6N (or indeed the games Farrell played on the Lions tour)...

Taylorman probablly measures every single player on a GREAT Kiwi. You wont get much praise from people that get to watch that sort of rugby year after year after year. But he is being overly harsh on Farrell, Great asset to England and allways wanted him to retain his place.. We need to make the choice of who his replacement(in case of injury) is going to be and play him at least 4 times before the RWC

mystiroakey wrote:tomh the way i am looking at Brown and Care is that it was almost lucky to have the key injuries in those areas or they may not have got the chance.

But I think those 2 have raised the bar and made the places there own now. I want replacements that can make a similar impact. Players like goode and youngs are not in the same league.

Ok I agree with fodden.. Great player and good replacement for brown. But care for me has shown up youngs big time

True on Youngs, at least based on his form this season, but I don't think the way to solve it is to shoehorn him into the team. He isn't in any desperate need of more international experience - he has plenty - he needs to prove at Leicester that he can improve his game as Care has. Same point or Foden vs Brown.

Ford on the other hand has been playing very well for Bath, and the main priority is to get him gametime ahead of 2015.

And can we all know agree that brown should never be on the wing again!

so we also need to really sort those positions out as well, rather than when fodden comes back stick brown on the wing.

TBH i would much rather keep 36 and burrel in the centre and stick Manu out on the wing

In fairness whenever Brown and Foden have both been available it's been Foden who shifted to the wing. That happened away to SA in 2012 and the AIs last year. Can't imagine Lancaster shifting Brown out of position now.

Anyone know when Player of the Tournament is announced? If O'Driscoll gets it ahead of Brown I'll be annoyed.

Oh ok didnt realise. my memory is shocking

If an Irish player gets it it has to be Trimble. But i think every single person on this forum agrees Brown deserves the award.

If BOD gets it then its a bit of a joke in fairness.. He deserves some kind of accolade for leading ireland in his final tourney. But ......

If BOD gets ahead of Brown it will have been the biggest display of sentimentality I have ever seen. But, it got him the last man of the match despite being Ireland's 5th best performer maybe and the second best 13 on the pitch (and I don't usually praise Bastareaud). Wasn't exactly his performance against Italy repeated...

Did Trimble even get a MotM? If not he can't get it. POM would be a fair-ish shout. Huget passable. Lawes a decent one too

trimble for me was MOTM in the last two Ireland games- he was robbed to sentiment

BOD got motm yesterday????? He had a very average game yesterday, missed tackles, bad passes.

Basteraud & Fickou both played better.

In regards to englands best players.

Brown, Care, Farrel, Lawes in that order

Brown has 4 MOTM in his 8 games this season. Not bad.

Brown has a bit of bravado about him doesn't he. Is he well liked by the fans?

He is loved by the fans, infact oddly enough even rival fans seem to like him and he is english!!

Well, as a Quins fan who has thought he should be playing 15 for England for ages, I'm biased, but yes. Definitely, especially when you see how non-aggressive and almost shy he is off the pitch

mystiroakey wrote:He is loved by the fans, infact oddly enough even rival fans seem to like him and he is english!!

That's not completely true, I've heard some people claiming he's a good player but a rude word beginning with c used to talk about ladyparts in a very crass way...

Well when he beats almost every single first player he comes up against its got to hurt playing against him. But as a person he is a top bloke and a professional pro that hasnt got worse with the media attention , only got better- That is a sign of a champ

I can not wait to see what he can do in NZ

Classic, good to know, thanks for the insights.

mystiroakey wrote:In regards to englands best players.

Brown, Care, Farrel, Lawes in that order

Second that, though the order is interchangeable for me. Probably the four most improved players in the last 12 months or so too.

I liked youngs when he first came on the scene and used to hate seeing care in an England shirt, but the speed of thought and pass between the two is night and day. Care is setting the tempo that finally has an England team looking like they pose a threat.

mystiroakey wrote:If an Irish player gets it it has to be Trimble. But i think every single person on this forum agrees Brown deserves the award.

If BOD gets it then its a bit of a joke in fairness.. He deserves some kind of accolade for leading ireland in his final tourney. But ......

Give BOD a lifetime achievement award. Like they do when Bowie brings out yet another cruddy album but he needs to be acknowledged in some way. That's not to say BOD had a cruddy 6 Nations. He was probably the 2nd best 13 after Burrell

Cyril wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:If an Irish player gets it it has to be Trimble. But i think every single person on this forum agrees Brown deserves the award.

If BOD gets it then its a bit of a joke in fairness.. He deserves some kind of accolade for leading ireland in his final tourney. But ......

Give BOD a lifetime achievement award. Like they do when Bowie brings out yet another cruddy album but he needs to be acknowledged in some way. That's not to say BOD had a cruddy 6 Nations. He was probably the 2nd best 13 after Burrell

Maybe 3rd after Campagnaro, hard to call he had 1 excellent game, 1 very good game, 2 ok games and 1 quiet game

Then again, Lydiate did win it a couple of years ago, so who knows what might happen?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Then again, Lydiate did win it a couple of years ago, so who knows what might happen?

Yeah, but you need to remember that Lydiate actually completes more tackles than he attempts. I read it on here somewhere.

Well Put it this way . I wouldnt offer anyone more than 1/15 for Brown to get it.

The problem for ireland is that BOD was given two MOTM for sentimental value- if there were rightly awarded to Trimble there may have been a case for him.