Ireland vs Italy, 8th March

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IRELAND VS ITALY

Date: Saturday, March 8
Kick-off: 14:30 GMT
Venue: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Greg Garner (England)
Television match official: Geoff Warren (England)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

IRELAND TEAM wrote:15 Rob Kearney, 14 Andrew Trimble, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Dave Kearney, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Chris Henry, 6 Iain Henderson, 5 Paul O'Connell (c), 4 Devin Toner, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Jack McGrath, 18 Martin Moore, 19 Rhys Ruddock, 20 Jordi Murphy, 21 Eoin Reddan, 22 Paddy Jackson, 23 Fergus McFadden.

ITALY TEAM wrote:15 Luke McLean, 14 Angelo Esposito, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Gonzalo Garcia, 11 Leonardo Sarto, 10 Luciano Orquera, 9 Tito Tebaldi, 8 Robert Barbieri, 7 Paul Derbyshire, 6 Joshua Furno, 5 Marco Bortolami (c), 4 Quentin Geldenhuys, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Alberto de Marchi

16 David Giazzon, 17 Michele Rizzo, 18 Lorenzo Cittadini, 19 Antonio Pavanello, 20 Manoa Vosawai, 21 Edoardo Gori, 22 Tommaso Allan, 23 Andrea Masi

If we win this game by a larger margin than the winners of the other two games achieve then it's very, very simple- we set up a Cup Final for ourselves in Paris to win the Championship. We do already have the best points difference but we have a chance to settle the issue of points difference beyond all doubt and make this a very simple equation. An Ireland win in Paris, and we are champions. We are out to score and Joe Schmidt has named his strongest available team.

Italy have chosen to rotate their squad with half an eye on targeting the final game against England, Sergio Parisse is rested along with the first choice halfbacks in a team with a more experimental look. Tito Tebaldi and Andrea Masi make long awaited returns to the Italian match day squad and Luciano Orquera will hope to recapture the form which saw him perform so well in some famous Italian victories in the 2013 campaign.

There'll be plenty of applause for a retiring legend... but no room for sentiment. A ruthless and clinical performance is required.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You are a card asls. For pedantic reasoning you are of course correct he has made one attempt way back (wasn't there an issue with Darcys fitness then ). It is clear he is intent on keeping the incumbents in place for the 6ns with a world cup coming up it would appear to be a poor idea given anything can happen as with luke Marshall last night.

As for previously didn't kidney give luke his chance and i my comments were mostly about the players taking more responsibility and maybe not being as good as everyone thought. Which so far has been proven given who we have beaten. With all the huffing last weekend we lost for the exact same reason as last year.

You must be an accountant given your ability to provide factual yet useless information. Yet you are proving again a lack of cognitive reasoning.

Nope like most of the players he gave new caps to it was only after an injury to the incumbent that Marshall got his chance,funny how you forget that.You only notice the issue with D'Arcys fitness when it suits you,every post you write is full of hypocrisy given your previous stance.

Luke Marshall's first cap was against fiji under Kidney (game in Thomond Park). He wasn't brought into that because of injury.

His first cap was in a game where caps weren't awarded.   

You've jumped the shark.

Kidney is gone now. Lets thank him for winning a grandslam and blooding new players and move on. He was a step up from EOS.


My team for Italy would be
(presuming Marshall is out)

15 Rob Kearney
14 Bowe
13 Henshaw
12 BOD - Only because its possibly his last home game
11 Dave Kearney
10 Jackson
9 Reddan
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Moore
4 Ryan
5 Toner
6 Murphy
7 TOD
8 Heaslip

16 Cronin
17 McGrath
18 Ross
19 Henderson
20 Copeland
21 Madigan
22 Murray
23 Fitzgerald

I would rest POM and Sexton to make sure they're fit for the France match. Give POC a break too with him being replaced by Ryan.

Jordi Murphy and Rhys Ruddock would be close for me but I would pick Murphy for this match because he is a better ball carrier and Ireland need to score points. TOD replaces Henry for the same reason.
Reddan on for Murray to speed the game up. Its basically a horses for courses selection.

The bench would have plenty of impact. Henderson and Copeland are big ball carriers who usually make ground.
Bowe could also be a bench option because he is not 100% fit yet.
Madigan on the bench but only just. I would seriously consider Keatley or even JJ to be ahead of Madigan. Keatley in particular probably deserves to be there more than Madigan.

Give Moore a start. We won't lose much and if he is having difficulty then Ross is on the bench.
An argument could be made for replacing anyone in the pack.


I don't think Schmidt will make much changes though. We'll probably see 2 or 3 changes to the 23 man squad at most with maybe a few players like Moore getting a start.

Its interesting to see Henshaw start at 15 today for Connacht. Could we see him start there for Ireland next week??

Oh oh ASLS you are double posting now in answering, make sure you take your blood pressure pills...

Seems to me from the Fiji game kidney used a number of players..anyhow back to your lack of ability its more entertaining. Now if you weren't so blinded by your laughable attempt at a putdown i will repeat what i have said on a number of occasions on this thread...

you ready?

A B- for Joe based on his results so far and his lack of introduction of new players/combos in the backline with a wc coming up. Also the back play has not been as good as expected (let me digress here, i actually expected a lot more in the backline because it was JS , so just a tad disappointed it hasn't progressed from last year).

He has an opportunity to win the 6ns and if he does it will be excellent, if he doesn't it will be better than last year but not by a huge amount in my OPINION...(put that in big letters for you)..

So are you getting it yet? I have high expectations of JS. I do not see huge progress (yet), you never know though and its an opportunity against France (assuming like everyone else we take care of Italy.

Now find a mirror and have an argument with yourself..it might help

ME-109 wrote:Oh oh ASLS you are double posting now in answering, make sure you take your blood pressure pills...

Seems to me from the Fiji game kidney used a number of players..anyhow back to your lack of ability its more entertaining. Now if you weren't so blinded by your laughable attempt at a putdown i will repeat what i have said on a number of occasions on this thread...

you ready?

A B- for Joe based on his results so far and his lack of introduction of new players/combos in the backline with a wc coming up. Also the back play has not been as good as expected (let me digress here, i actually expected a lot more in the backline because it was JS , so just a tad disappointed it hasn't progressed from last year).

He has an opportunity to win the 6ns and if he does it will be excellent, if he doesn't it will be better than last year but not by a huge amount in my OPINION...(put that in big letters for you)..

So are you getting it yet? I have high expectations of JS. I do not see huge progress (yet), you never know though and its an opportunity against France (assuming like everyone else we take care of Italy.

Now find a mirror and have an argument with yourself..it might help

I get it alright,I just wonder why you didn't have these expectations of Kidney.Your constant defense of everything he did was pitiful,now that he's gone you expect the next coach to work wonders.I personally have high expectations of Schmidt too but that's consistent with what I expected of Kidney and EoS before him.

What's pitiful (and painful to the eyes) is having to read your posts. Relax boy and don't get so worked up, life is too short.

Defending kidney against some of the childish and moronic attacks on here was not hard given the dross that was being put out by some of the armchair experts (or just plain anti kidney like yourself)

its not hard to defend a gs winning coach with a ten game unbeaten run, our best showing at a world cup and a 60% win ratio. I will give JS some slack in terms of the quality of players he has now compared to dk in 08/09.

anyhow..anything else you want to take umbrage with...otherwise carry on (and do relax a little)

Kidney isn't relevant. But any future Ireland coach who has a year like his from the 2012 Six Nations to the 2013 Six Nations will get it in the neck and rightly so. Were Ireland playing like that now, the blood would already be in the water!

ME-109 wrote:What's pitiful (and painful to the eyes) is having to read your posts. Relax boy and don't get so worked up, life is too short.

Defending kidney against some of the childish and moronic attacks on here was not hard given the dross that was being put out by some of the armchair experts (or just plain anti kidney like yourself)

its not hard to defend a gs winning coach with a ten game unbeaten run, our best showing at a world cup and a 60% win ratio. I will give JS some slack in terms of the quality of players he has now compared to dk in 08/09.

anyhow..anything else you want to take umbrage with...otherwise carry on (and do relax a little)

I think you're projecting,I have nothing else to take umbrage with but I will continue to point out your hypocrisy when appropriate.   

Kidney won a Churchill Cup as well, DOD. Something no Irish coach has done or is likely to do!

IRB International Coach of the Year as well - only NH coach to wrestle that one out of New Zealand since Sir Clive I think.

Its just laughable anyone had to defend him. Schmidt has POC back, which IN MY OPINION has been the missing ingredient over DK's last 2 seasons.

Sin é wrote:Kidney won a Churchill Cup as well, DOD. Something no Irish coach has done or is likely to do!

IRB International Coach of the Year as well - only NH coach to wrestle that one out of New Zealand since Sir Clive I think.

Its just laughable anyone had to defend him. Schmidt has POC back, which IN MY OPINION has been the missing ingredient over DK's last 2 seasons.

Funny how Schmidt could coach a team to beat Scotland without PoC when Kidneys team lost to them 3 times.

Kidney was a quality coach who had a rotten end to his reign that's all.

JS is at the start of his and he has a lot of work to do. I am yet to see his tactical genius as some on here have lauded. I actually think that he has had a very average start to be honest but that's not to say that he wont get better and better given time.

Problem I have is his (seemingly lack of) preparations for the RWC, he really needs to replace players who wont feature in the RWC now and start getting the younger players settled into the team.

Nachos Jones wrote:Kidney was a quality coach who had a rotten end to his reign that's all.

JS is at the start of his and he has a lot of work to do. I am yet to see his tactical genius as some on here have lauded. I actually think that he has had a very average start to be honest but that's not to say that he wont get better and better given time.

Problem I have is his (seemingly lack of) preparations for the RWC, he really needs to replace players who wont feature in the RWC now and start getting the younger players settled into the team.

Those last 3 years were pretty bad alright.

Nachos Jones wrote:Kidney was a quality coach who had a rotten end to his reign that's all.

JS is at the start of his and he has a lot of work to do. I am yet to see his tactical genius as some on here have lauded. I actually think that he has had a very average start to be honest but that's not to say that he wont get better and better given time.

Problem I have is his (seemingly lack of) preparations for the RWC, he really needs to replace players who wont feature in the RWC now and start getting the younger players settled into the team.

Any tactics at all would have been an improvement, having a plan A never mind a plan B and C in each game let alone tactical variations in every game so far. Tactically we have already improved 10 fold. Some people need to open their eyes.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Kidney was a quality coach who had a rotten end to his reign that's all.

JS is at the start of his and he has a lot of work to do. I am yet to see his tactical genius as some on here have lauded. I actually think that he has had a very average start to be honest but that's not to say that he wont get better and better given time.

Problem I have is his (seemingly lack of) preparations for the RWC, he really needs to replace players who wont feature in the RWC now and start getting the younger players settled into the team.

Any tactics at all would have been an improvement, having a plan A never mind a plan B and C in each game let alone tactical variations in every game so far. Tactically we have already improved 10 fold. Some people need to open their eyes.

My eyes are very much open. I am simply not buying into the hype that some of you have created. His tactics against England were poor, every man and his dog could see that Sexton was struggling and should have been replaced.

As I said, its early in his tenure so still a long way to go but he really should be aiming to have a settled team for the RWC now.

His tactics were clearly quite close to being spot on. Player execution was off. Particularly Sexton. This is the best England team since they win the world cup. We lost by 3 points in Twickenham yet Schmidts tactics very much put Ireland in a position to win. As a coach there isnt much you can do once the players take to the field. Even a poor Sexton is better at the moment to alternatives.

Take the red lenses off and open your eyes. A Kidney coached side would have been slaughered in Twickers again.

Take my red glasses off? Did I say something provincial? Seriously...

Taking Sexton off earlier may have given Ireland the boost they needed. He was looking off after taking a hit, we all could see it. That's not player fault, that's coach's fault...

Why is there not a new 12 being introduced (next to BOD) and trusted? I cant for the life of me think that D'Arcy will be the starting 12 at the RWC.

Doesn't Luke Marshall count as a new 12?

Only if he gets trusted with the position and gets a good run. Keeping the D'Arcy BOD partnership going is not helping Ireland in the long term, what are we learning that we don't already know about these two? They will not be the starting partnership at the RWC so give the young guys a decent run and let them settle into the team. This is just my opinion.

Notch wrote:Doesn't Luke Marshall count as a new 12?

He doesn't seem to,there are none so blind as those that will not see.

I respect it, but I feel like you're falling into the trap of making everything about the Rugby World Cup. Would we sacrifice a Six Nations title for a semi-final in that? We have won only one 6N in the professional era! Surely short-term success in this tournament should be the priority?

Ireland have 2 games left in this Six Nations. After that 2 tests on the tour of Argentina, 3 tests in the Autumn Internationals, 5 tests in the 2015 Six Nations, 2/3 tests on the 2015 summer tour and then traditionally between 2 and 4 tests before the start of the Rugby World Cup.

Then at the Rugby World Cup we have a test against Canada and a test against the second-best qualifier from Europe before we play Italy at the Olympic Stadium in London. So we need to hit that Italy game in Round 3 of RWC Pool Stages with two comfortable wins and a settled team, but we have 14 - 17 games before the tournament even starts to evolve the team even if we don't give a thought to it in the next few weeks.

I really don't have a problem with any coach picking an older player on form if they think it will win us a 6 Nations championship, especially when we know from the Argentina tour onwards we are going to see radical changes in the centres when BOD bows out. As an Ulster fan, I can't argue that Gordon D'Arcy wasn't better against New Zealand than Luke Marshall was against Australia, he was also better against England than Marshall was against Scotland so it's not a selection I feel I can criticise on form. Marshall will hopefully grow from his exposure but he's really still a fair bit away from being the finished article. I was hoping Marshall would get another test versus Italy but that seems unlikely now if he did pick up anther bang to the head.

I don't want our selection policy to be guided by the Rugby World Cup when there is a title on the line. I just want us to beat Italy well and beat France. But looking ahead to the Rugby World Cup and thinking about midfield combinations it's notable how Schmidt is keeping Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall and Robbie Henshaw all very involved- I expect all three to get good game time in Argentina, and it does seem like Schmidt is bringing in a lot of guys who will be real contenders in the 2015 squad around the fringes; Henderson, Murphy, Moore, McGrath, Jackson, Marshall, O'Donnell, Henshaw etc.

I would start getting worried if Sexton and D'Arcy start both tests against Los Pumas together! Thats the perfect chance to blood a few new players. The end of BOD will be the end of D'Arcy getting into the team on the back of that 'combination' but lets be fair to D'Arcy- he may be lacking in pace but he's playing like a man who refuses to step aside.

Fair points Notch and I do agree to some extent but I honestly feel that Ireland should keep and eye on the RWC in regards to selections. It also gives the new players time to settle in for the next 6N through the summer tour and AI's. I was hoping to see it this 6N.

Think my team for Italy would resemble
Healy Best Moore
Ryan Toner
O'Mahoney Heaslip O'Donnell
Murray Jackson
BOD Henshaw
Kearney Kearney Bowe

Moore needs time to progress and Ross could use a rest but I'd have him on the bench just in case
Ryan needs the time and O'Connell is important so we should keep him away for this one, Henderson would be on the bench for physicality later on
O'Donnell gets the nod for ball carrying but don't want to change the backrow too much as we risk losing Breakdown if we do that
Would have Jackson in for experiance and keep Murray there because Reddan for me is a liability at times and we don't want that round a young 10.
BOD at 12 so he can provide some sort of comfort to Jacko and so Henshaw can get a run out at 13 and show a bit more creativity than we had last time out, also because this would be his last home game.
Bowe was impressive last night and could use some gametime, the 2 Kearneys have played well so far.
I'd also have Zebo on bench to help us later on with points
I don;t think this will be Schmidt team just what I would have if it was me

Guns and Asls the terrible twosome (or to be more accurate dumb and dumber) you need to relax the cacks a bit. You are so far up Joes hole its hilarious.

As Notch said kidney is not relevant....get with the here and now gentlemen . I'm sorry but Asls the common denominator in your dislike of dk points to a closed mind of the worst kind...

Sin é wrote:Kidney won a Churchill Cup as well, DOD. Something no Irish coach has done or is likely to do!

IRB International Coach of the Year as well - only NH coach to wrestle that one out of New Zealand since Sir Clive I think.

Its just laughable anyone had to defend him. Schmidt has POC back, which IN MY OPINION has been the missing ingredient over DK's last 2 seasons.

as some langer keeps on saying here, there are none so blind as they cannot see (must be a bible thing..i hear its all the rage in some parts of the island)

Only drop in every now and its quiet amusing to see kidney still being debated, am I in the right year? Some posters see everything got to do with irish rugby in the context of their sycophantic kidney/munster views.
The same gruesome twosome defending every decision kidney made (My two favourite were SOB wasn't ready (leamy) and Mick Ross wasn't good enough to oust hayes/mushy) are now attacking the new coach with the same vigour laced with nonsense.

Anyway,backline changes with an eye on Paris? Anyone have news on Marshall? Really hope he is fit for next week.
Bowe looked good too so expect him to feature. Zebo didn't look great a fb so its either straight into the first 15 or not in the match day squad at all in my mind.

I'm with Notch on this, I'd prioritise this six nations above the RWC as of this moment in time.

Also like Notch, I am hoping guys get a lot of exposure in Argentina. Henshaw, Marmion, Jackson, Marshall, Henderson, Moore, McGrath all could do with more time with Joe.

Ain't it luck it's Argentina!  Had it been South Africa, Australia or New Zealand, we'd be saying we can't afford to risk things as we have to go out with the best sides to beat these guys, gven we only get a crack at them on and off.  
So Argentina is at least an excuse to say we can test players.  But will we, to the extent that many seem to believe we can?  It's all very well putting out young 'hopefuls' - but the only time you get computable info on how they'd cope in WC terms is by not having too many of them on at the one time - but instead having them play with the players who might expect to be nailed-on ones.  Schmidt is a victim to time, and the time of his confirmation as coach was not his doing.  IRFU slipped up in keeping a system that wasn't working going for a year longer than it should have.

On a side-track, I think the fever amongst certain players to do "their International homework" whilst on Provincial duty is actually having a negative impact on Provincial rhythms.  
It's been a long time since I've detected players try to impress the man a door up from the Provincial boss.  I'm not sure I'm enjoying the experience.
But as selected Irish players do hard International standard 80 minute shifts now (...in International games, that is; and hopefully that continues!!!) - will we see Provinces lose traction and rhythm as a corrollary of those efforts and interests amongst players?

SecretFly wrote: 
IRFU slipped up in keeping a system that wasn't working going for a year longer than it should have.

That's the key right there. As much as I really respect Kidney, the IRFU should have taken actions to change him sooner as it was clear to everyone that it was simply no longer working under him.

That said, I still feel that JS has to start implementing the younger players and trusting them. I really thought that the whole reason for convincing BOD to stay on one more 6N was so that he could help introduce a new 12 and teach him the ropes of International rugby. This has not happened as there has not been a new 12 fully introduced and trusted.

I get slated because of my views that JS should be having one eye on the RWC but I firmly believe that he should do to a certain extent. Its not just the RWC but also the next 6N he should be preparing for and i for one just don't see it right now.

We need to beat Italy and beat them well. That's our priority ATM not the RWC. There won't be more than a couple changes barring injury.

Possibly Moore and another winger to get a chance to impress. Marshall really unlucky getting injured.

If the championship was gone then we'd see more rotation but we're top of the table!!

Golden wrote:We need to beat Italy and beat them well. That's our priority ATM not the RWC. There won't be more than a couple changes barring injury.

Possibly Moore and another winger to get a chance to impress. Marshall really unlucky getting injured.

If the championship was gone then we'd see more rotation but we're top of the table!!

That's the simple truth nobody can avoid.  And moreso, it's the absolute truth Schmidt can't avoid.  And you can see him in each interview to date - that it's actually eating at him.  He knows more than anyone else that he has a stop-watch marked WC, that he has the pressure to try to form a squad that can get out of their pool and possibly further.  That will be a direct demand from IRFU and one of the reasons he got the job.  People believe he has the tactical ability to give Ireland the chance to make an impact on a WC that is so close to home.

But the pressure is on him...and only him, as the Head coach.  

The pressure is from the IRFU to do his work in preparing for the WC.  
The pressure is on him from players who are giving him as much as they can (either at Provinces or International) and will only keep interested in the project if he rewards some of them for those efforts.  
The pressure is from fans.................. they scent a Championship.  They want one if it's realistically available - and if it's realistic, then they want best players there in a stable side.  They won't be nice if he fiddles too much with personel and Ireland lose their way.  They simply won't be nice.  He knows this for a fact as he learned it pretty quickly in his initial few weeks with Leinster.  Fans turn on you quickly.

AND........... the pressure is finally coming from the media (of which I suppose we all here form a real part of it) - the published media; who have the lesiure to claim to want everything and will be savge if things they want (which compete with each other) aren't given.  The media will want experimentation and regardless of results, will keep mentioning players that might have been there and asking why they aren't.  And the media at the same time will want those results - and they'll be asking why the young inexperienced player was chanced in that position if the results don't come.....

The media will want it all - as usual.  Schmidt has been given pretty much a poison chalice and the only other coach in a worse position than him leading into the WC is Vern Cotter - who brought his late arrival at Scotland onto his own head really.
Schmidt has been given a poison chalice with such central players coming close to the end (BOD, POC, Darcy)...but he's doing pretty damn ok up to now!

So, let me try and understand you Fly. Schmidt cant fail in your eyes, if he does well then great but if he doesn't its because he has been given a poison chalice?

I really like the guy and do think that he is the correct man to lead Ireland and i do want him to succeed. I am just not buying into this 'great tactician' and the best coach ever business that some are floating on about here.

I will say things how i see them, even as a Munster fan and a massive fan of ROG's i was screaming that he should have been dropped after the last RWC and that Sexton should be allowed the full faith of the coach. In D'Arcy and BOD, i see Schmidt making the same mistake.

Schmidt has undoubtedly done well and to even establish ourselves as serious 6N contenders represents a massive step forward from the last few years of the Kidney era. He's largely got his tactics right and our forward play, defence and discipline have been transformed but so far we are better without the ball than with it. Hopefully once we can bring back the likes of SOB and Bowe and also integrate some of  Marmion, Madigan, JJ, Olding, Marshall and Henshaw we'll be more of a threatening force.

However before the tournament I said that squad development was more important than results and I stand by that. Only if we were in shout of a slam would I abandon long-term development.

I am currently a supporter of Schmidt and he has exceeded my expectations but I would be disappointed if we didn't use the Italy game as an opportunity to develop young players, particularly Martin Moore and in the centres.

Why does it have to be this 6 nations or build for the world cup. Why not a mixture of both?


Its like this folks. Who are the most conservative selected team in tier 1 nations since 2000? It has to be Ireland surely!
Who are the biggest underachievers since 2000? Yup the Paddies.


Is there any connection there? I think there is. I think teams have to be freshened up all the time. Not only does it generate more competition within the squad but also the players like it that way. Look at what happens when a new coach comes in. Kidney won a grandslam and the team is much improved under Schmidt.


Will the feel good factor last if the same players get selected all the time? From my experience I think not. The fringe members of the squad start to get frustrated and the undroppables (not all) start to slacken off eg Kearney and Heaslip last year.


And as for being underachievers, when I hear the talk in the Irish media about winning triple crowns it turns my stomach. Thats the definition of being a loser... taking pride in a consolation prize.


I'll tell you why we go way overboard when it comes to experience. Experience means players have the opportunity to learn and grow. However to put it bluntly, some players are more intelligent than other players. Experience can't close that gap nor can it close the gap in skill and physicality. In Ireland we're guilty of thinking all players are level in terms of intelligence and need a certain amount of experience to get to a certain level.


Same goes for the provinces. Donnacha Ryan waiting until his late twenties for Munster. Conor Murray was 22 or 23 before we saw him for Munster and he was behind the great Duncan Williams!

Look at Paddy Jackson. He has been playing with Ulster for 2 seasons now and yet some people think he isn't ready for Ireland due to lack of experience (his goal kicking is another matter). Just play him ffs.

Marmion being 4th choice is typical Ireland. He is miles better than Boss and almost as good as Reddan and could overtake Murray. He has now play 50 games for Connacht!! I hope Schmidt hasn't caught this disease we have in Ireland. A Dis-ease in taking a chance with younger players.


Looking at other sports every team has a certain period being at their peak. Alan Hansen famously said about Man Utd that they'll win nothing with kids. So much for that theory.
In hurling Kilkennys Brian Cody has ruled hurling and constantly changes winning sides. Under Cody Kilkenny has always favoured youth ahead of experience and they've the medals to show for it. Clare the current all Ireland champions won the AI with a new, young team. They've concentrated on player development and were not afraid to throw young lads in.


So basically what I'm saying is when players are ready they're ready. Usually in Ireland players take longer to come through for their provinces but when they're physically ready then they should be given a chance if they're good enough.

I'm not saying out with the old in with the new. That would be silly. If players are good enough then play them.

theslosty wrote:Schmidt has undoubtedly done well and to even establish ourselves as serious 6N contenders represents a massive step forward from the last few years of the Kidney era. He's largely got his tactics right and our forward play, defence and discipline have been transformed but so far we are better without the ball than with it. Hopefully once we can bring back the likes of SOB and Bowe and also integrate some of  Marmion, Madigan, JJ, Olding, Marshall and Henshaw we'll be more of a threatening force.

However before the tournament I said that squad development was more important than results and I stand by that. Only if we were in shout of a slam would I abandon long-term development.

I am currently a supporter of Schmidt and he has exceeded my expectations but I would be disappointed if we didn't use the Italy game as an opportunity to develop young players, particularly Martin Moore and in the centres.

I would agree with that except the grand slam part. Winning the championship is what counts with the grand slam being a nice bonus.


He could easily make changes and Ireland would be just as strong against Italy. Moore, Cronin, Jackson, Marmion etc wouldn't weaken the team.

profitius wrote:Why does it have to be this 6 nations or build for the world cup. Why not a mixture of both?

IRFU need the merit payments (prize money and sponsorship) to do as well as they can.

Its like this folks. Who are the most conservative selected team in tier 1 nations since 2000? It has to be Ireland surely!
Who are the biggest underachievers since 2000? Yup the Paddies.

Who are you comparing us to? England? Surely they are the biggest under achievers in the 6 Nations in the last 10 years. They have a huge playing population and the benefits of winning a world cup in that period to boost interest. What about Scotland? They have been steadily going downhill since 2000. Italy has improved, and France has been all over the shop (but did reach a world cup final).

Is there any connection there? I think there is. I think teams have to be freshened up all the time. Not only does it generate more competition within the squad but also the players like it that way. Look at what happens when a new coach comes in. Kidney won a grandslam and the team is much improved under Schmidt.

Ireland is the Leinster team at the moment with POC, POM, Henry & Murray plugging a few holes at the moment for him. That is freshening things up alright!

Will the feel good factor last if the same players get selected all the time? From my experience I think not. The fringe members of the squad start to get frustrated and the undroppables (not all) start to slacken off eg Kearney and Heaslip last year.

Schmidt doesn't tolerate slackness. Schmidt will drop them if they don't graft (though in fairness to Kearney, he has been coming back from injury over the last year and thankfully is now playing very well again).

And as for being underachievers, when I hear the talk in the Irish media about winning triple crowns it turns my stomach. Thats the definition of being a loser... taking pride in a consolation prize.

I think its more of an achievement now as both Wales & England are formidable - a couple of years ago Wales were very poor.

I'll tell you why we go way overboard when it comes to experience. Experience means players have the opportunity to learn and grow. However to put it bluntly, some players are more intelligent than other players. Experience can't close that gap nor can it close the gap in skill and physicality. In Ireland we're guilty of thinking all players are level in terms of intelligence and need a certain amount of experience to get to a certain level.

Same goes for the provinces. Donnacha Ryan waiting until his late twenties for Munster. Conor Murray was 22 or 23 before we saw him for Munster and he was behind the great Duncan Williams!

Are you suggesting that Donnacha Ryan is a bit thick for not moving from Munster? If you are, I'd say the opposite is true. Apart from anything else, Ryan didn't take up rugby until he was 18 and was still playing club hurling at 23. He also turned down a Munster contract initially because he wanted to do a Masters in UCC (4 years in college).

I don't know what you have been looking at, but I saw Conor Murray playing for Munster A in 2010 (final of B&I Cup), I saw him come on against Australia in 2010. In his first season with Munster, he played 8+4. Williams played 3+4 - in other words, Murray got double the games that Williams got. He was 21 when he got his first Munster cap (against Connacht. Peter Stringer started). If he was behind anyone, it was Tomas O'Leary & Peter Stringer, not Duncan Williams.

Look at Paddy Jackson. He has been playing with Ulster for 2 seasons now and yet some people think he isn't ready for Ireland due to lack of experience (his goal kicking is another matter). Just play him ffs.

 

If there was another goal kicker instead of Paddy, I'd be pretty sure he would get more time off the bench for Ireland, but as it is, not having a fully confident goal kicker on the pitch in a tight game for the last 20 minutes would be crazy.

Marmion being 4th choice is typical Ireland. He is miles better than Boss and almost as good as Reddan and could overtake Murray. He has now play 50 games for Connacht!! I hope Schmidt hasn't caught this disease we have in Ireland. A Dis-ease in taking a chance with younger players.

I'd imagine that the thinking is that you would never have two young and inexperienced half backs on the bench together like Jackson/Madigan with Marmion. Interesting as well, even at U20s, Jackson & Marmion rarely played together. It was nearly always JJ & Marmion.

Looking at other sports every team has a certain period being at their peak. Alan Hansen famously said about Man Utd that they'll win nothing with kids. So much for that theory.
In hurling Kilkennys Brian Cody has ruled hurling and constantly changes winning sides. Under Cody Kilkenny has always favoured youth ahead of experience and they've the medals to show for it. Clare the current all Ireland champions won the AI with a new, young team. They've concentrated on player development and were not afraid to throw young lads in.

I don't think you can compare any of those sports to rugby as rugby depends so much more on physical development. By the way, a big contributor to Clare success is that most that team play and train regularly together as most of them are in two colleges (UCC & UL). Much of the talk is how that will work out in years to come when they are not playing and training together every day and they have day jobs to hold down.

So basically what I'm saying is when players are ready they're ready. Usually in Ireland players take longer to come through for their provinces but when they're physically ready then they should be given a chance if they're good enough.

I'm not saying out with the old in with the new. That would be silly. If players are good enough then play them.

Peter O'Mahony said recently that this year he actually feels much fitter and stronger and that is why he is playing so well. Most will admit that it takes a few years to get to that fitness levels. Tommy O'Donnell is another example of someone whose game improved so much once he had physically developed.

Nachos Jones wrote:So, let me try and understand you Fly. Schmidt cant fail in your eyes, if he does well then great but if he doesn't its because he has been given a poison chalice?

I really like the guy and do think that he is the correct man to lead Ireland and i do want him to succeed. I am just not buying into this 'great tactician' and the best coach ever business that some are floating on about here.

I will say things how i see them, even as a Munster fan and a massive fan of ROG's i was screaming that he should have been dropped after the last RWC and that Sexton should be allowed the full faith of the coach. In D'Arcy and BOD, i see Schmidt making the same mistake.

ROG didn't start an Ireland game after the Rugby World Cup - his gametime was on average about 5 minutes per game at the end if there were no injuries. Nothing at all like the D'Arcy/BOD situation.

[quote="Sin é"]

Nachos Jones wrote:

ROG didn't start an Ireland game after the Rugby World Cup - his gametime was on average about 5 minutes per game at the end if there were no injuries. Nothing at all like the D'Arcy/BOD situation.

I could have sworn that ROG started games for Ireland after the 2011 RWC. The point mainly being is that i thought that ROG's presence in the match day squads was somewhat of a hindrance to Sexton. The camera's always panned to ROG when Sexton missed a kick and it must have felt like a big axe hanging over him. Proper professionals should cope with that though i suppose.

I just have no idea what other 12's (and 13's) in Ireland feel that they have to do to be considered for Ireland. When BOD and D'Arcy both go, there is going to be one hell of a gap as no real preparations are being made. Its not all about the RWC, its about getting guys to partner the incumbent players and learn their job on the International stage and this is not happening whilst Schmidt is persisting with the BOD/D'Arcy partnership.

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:Why does it have to be this 6 nations or build for the world cup. Why not a mixture of both?

IRFU need the merit payments (prize money and sponsorship) to do as well as they can.

Its like this folks. Who are the most conservative selected team in tier 1 nations since 2000? It has to be Ireland surely!
Who are the biggest underachievers since 2000? Yup the Paddies.

Who are you comparing us to? England? Surely they are the biggest under achievers in the 6 Nations in the last 10 years. They have a huge playing population and the benefits of winning a world cup in that period to boost interest. What about Scotland? They have been steadily going downhill since 2000. Italy has improved, and France has been all over the shop (but did reach a world cup final).

Is there any connection there? I think there is. I think teams have to be freshened up all the time. Not only does it generate more competition within the squad but also the players like it that way. Look at what happens when a new coach comes in. Kidney won a grandslam and the team is much improved under Schmidt.

Ireland is the Leinster team at the moment with POC, POM, Henry & Murray plugging a few holes at the moment for him. That is freshening things up alright!

Will the feel good factor last if the same players get selected all the time? From my experience I think not. The fringe members of the squad start to get frustrated and the undroppables (not all) start to slacken off eg Kearney and Heaslip last year.

Schmidt doesn't tolerate slackness. Schmidt will drop them if they don't graft (though in fairness to Kearney, he has been coming back from injury over the last year and thankfully is now playing very well again).

And as for being underachievers, when I hear the talk in the Irish media about winning triple crowns it turns my stomach. Thats the definition of being a loser... taking pride in a consolation prize.

I think its more of an achievement now as both Wales & England are formidable - a couple of years ago Wales were very poor.

I'll tell you why we go way overboard when it comes to experience. Experience means players have the opportunity to learn and grow. However to put it bluntly, some players are more intelligent than other players. Experience can't close that gap nor can it close the gap in skill and physicality. In Ireland we're guilty of thinking all players are level in terms of intelligence and need a certain amount of experience to get to a certain level.

Same goes for the provinces. Donnacha Ryan waiting until his late twenties for Munster. Conor Murray was 22 or 23 before we saw him for Munster and he was behind the great Duncan Williams!

Are you suggesting that Donnacha Ryan is a bit thick for not moving from Munster? If you are, I'd say the opposite is true. Apart from anything else, Ryan didn't take up rugby until he was 18 and was still playing club hurling at 23. He also turned down a Munster contract initially because he wanted to do a Masters in UCC (4 years in college).

I don't know what you have been looking at, but I saw Conor Murray playing for Munster A in 2010 (final of B&I Cup), I saw him come on against Australia in 2010. In his first season with Munster, he played 8+4. Williams played 3+4 - in other words, Murray got double the games that Williams got. He was 21 when he got his first Munster cap (against Connacht. Peter Stringer started). If he was behind anyone, it was Tomas O'Leary & Peter Stringer, not Duncan Williams.

Look at Paddy Jackson. He has been playing with Ulster for 2 seasons now and yet some people think he isn't ready for Ireland due to lack of experience (his goal kicking is another matter). Just play him ffs.

 

If there was another goal kicker instead of Paddy, I'd be pretty sure he would get more time off the bench for Ireland, but as it is, not having a fully confident goal kicker on the pitch in a tight game for the last 20 minutes would be crazy.

Marmion being 4th choice is typical Ireland. He is miles better than Boss and almost as good as Reddan and could overtake Murray. He has now play 50 games for Connacht!! I hope Schmidt hasn't caught this disease we have in Ireland. A Dis-ease in taking a chance with younger players.

I'd imagine that the thinking is that you would never have two young and inexperienced half backs on the bench together like Jackson/Madigan with Marmion. Interesting as well, even at U20s, Jackson & Marmion rarely played together. It was nearly always JJ & Marmion.

Looking at other sports every team has a certain period being at their peak. Alan Hansen famously said about Man Utd that they'll win nothing with kids. So much for that theory.
In hurling Kilkennys Brian Cody has ruled hurling and constantly changes winning sides. Under Cody Kilkenny has always favoured youth ahead of experience and they've the medals to show for it. Clare the current all Ireland champions won the AI with a new, young team. They've concentrated on player development and were not afraid to throw young lads in.

I don't think you can compare any of those sports to rugby as rugby depends so much more on physical development. By the way, a big contributor to Clare success is that most that team play and train regularly together as most of them are in two colleges (UCC & UL). Much of the talk is how that will work out in years to come when they are not playing and training together every day and they have day jobs to hold down.

So basically what I'm saying is when players are ready they're ready. Usually in Ireland players take longer to come through for their provinces but when they're physically ready then they should be given a chance if they're good enough.

I'm not saying out with the old in with the new. That would be silly. If players are good enough then play them.

Peter O'Mahony said recently that this year he actually feels much fitter and stronger and that is why he is playing so well. Most will admit that it takes a few years to get to that fitness levels. Tommy O'Donnell is another example of someone whose game improved so much once he had physically developed.

Points well made but my point still stands that we're over conservative here and when players are physically ready they should be played. Too many times players have been held back simply for the fear of them making mistakes. I would prefer more bravery in taking chances than fear of what might go wrong.


You compared Irelands record to Englands but what about a more similar team... Wales? Ireland have had a better record in the 6 nations throughout the years but Wales have won it 4 times to Irelands 1. Thats not by luck. They take more chances. In other words they have taken more chances over the years and have ended up winning more. 4 times more. A young Welsh team also knocked Ireland out of the last world cup. They have more peaks and troughs as a result but I would prefer that than finishing second all the time.


Regarding the last point on physicality, what about the oldies like BOD and D'Arcy? They've gone past their peak physically. Robbie Henshaw for example is way ahead of 34/35 year old BOD now in terms of physicality. Also for people worried about the physicality of young players I think its worth pointing out that Ireland have always a few too many 32+ players playing for them. Against England there was BOD, D'Arcy, Ross, POC and Boss. Personally I'm not too obsessed with physicality but just want to make a point.


I also stand by the point that you can plan for the world cup and not weaken the team. I'd have no problem playing Marmion and Jackson. They both look like intelligent players who know what they're doing and would still be superior to what Italy have.

An yet Toulon can win things with players who are further over the hill that our dears centres. You pick the best players. D'Arcy is still marginally better than Marshall. Marshall's decision making and distribution are not quite good enough yet and the best place to sort that is for Ulster. He has shown in green already he has all the other attributes. No need to panic. As for BOD, despite Cave being one of Ulster's best players for the past two seasons he doesn't get a look in for whatever reason. Henshaw isn't good enough yet. Olding is injured and, should be pointed out, has barely played 13 for Ulster. Fitzgerald, same. And the best Irish 13 (apparently) isn't Irish just yet.

We are doing grand. Not brilliantly. Just grand. An improvement on the past two-three seasons, but that could change one way or the other with defeats in the final two games. Its a new coaching setup, they will make mistakes and learn lessons along the way. Kidney and his cabal just made the same mistake time after time and never learn a thing. But fans are always quick to throw out any player out of the side when they hit 30. For too man fans 30=done. Piffle, twaddle and other middle class swearing. Moore is still behind Ross and is getting exposure. Same with McGrath. And Henderson. And Murphy. Now, Marmion's lack of even a waft of an opportunity is perplexing, but the summer tour and autumn will tell another tale. The World Cup is next year. I'll worry about next year, erm, next year baby.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Only drop in every now and its quiet amusing to see kidney still being debated, am I in the right year? Some posters see everything got to do with irish rugby in the context of their sycophantic kidney/munster views.
The same gruesome twosome defending every decision kidney made (My two favourite were SOB wasn't ready (leamy) and Mick Ross wasn't good enough to oust hayes/mushy) are now attacking the new coach with the same vigour laced with nonsense.

Anyway,backline changes with an eye on Paris? Anyone have news on Marshall? Really hope he is fit for next week.
Bowe looked good too so expect him to feature. Zebo didn't look great a fb so its either straight into the first 15 or not in the match day squad at all in my mind.  

I love this post so much I want to take it out for a nice slap up dinner and then invite it back to mine for 'coffee'.  You know what that means baby.  Yeah.  I'll even take off my socks when we do it.  What can I say, I'm a giver.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:An yet Toulon can win things with players who are further over the hill that our dears centres.  You pick the best players.  D'Arcy is still marginally better than Marshall.  Marshall's decision making and distribution are not quite good enough yet and the best place to sort that is for Ulster.  He has shown in green already he has all the other attributes.  No need to panic.  As for BOD, despite Cave being one of Ulster's best players for the past two seasons he doesn't get a look in for whatever reason.  Henshaw isn't good enough yet.  Olding is injured and, should be pointed out, has barely played 13 for Ulster.  Fitzgerald, same.  And the best Irish 13 (apparently) isn't Irish just yet.  

We are doing grand.  Not brilliantly.  Just grand.  An improvement on the past two-three seasons, but that could change one way or the other with defeats in the final two games.  Its a new coaching setup, they will make mistakes and learn lessons along the way.  Kidney and his cabal just made the same mistake time after time and never learn a thing.  But fans are always quick to throw out any player out of the side when they hit 30.  For too man fans 30=done.  Piffle, twaddle and other middle class swearing.  Moore is still behind Ross and is getting exposure.  Same with McGrath.  And Henderson.  And Murphy.  Now, Marmion's lack of even a waft of an opportunity is perplexing, but the summer tour and autumn will tell another tale.  The World Cup is next year.  I'll worry about next year, erm, next year baby.

I am sorry to point this out but i don't think anyone said that 30=done. For the record BOD is 35 and retiring and D'Arcy is 34 and is a strong possibility to also not feature for Ireland for much longer. Why are these two not being used now to introduce the younger talent? What has Ireland got to gain from playing this partnership now? Without introducing the younger lads and giving them a run with the old heads, they are not getting the valuable experience. When BOD retires, what happens if D'Arcy get injures? Pretty green centres being dropped in it when they could now be utilising this tournament to get experience. That is not good in my eyes.

I just don't get the problem Nachos. Sure Schmidt has Marshall and Henshaw in the squad shadowing their every move, learning all the time. Inevitably there will be a drop off but after BOD retires and this tournament finishes the main goal over the summer tour and autumn internationals will be to develop a centre partnership that will work in the 2015 Six Nations.

After all, Luke Marshall is getting test match experience and Jared Payne is hardly inexperienced either. I'm not saying it'll be a seamless transition, it'll take some time, but there's no point compromising our ability to win a tournament in the here and now so we can be a in a better position to win a tournament in a year or two.

But i thought that was one of the main reasons why Schmidt asked BOD to stay on another year Notch, to help introduce a player like Luke Marshall? This is not being done and he is still favouring D'Arcy over him.

It could be quite seamless if Schmidt did utilise these moments (as i hoped he would do) to bring in the younger players with the old heads. On the training ground is not the same as a pressure filled international. He is not showing any faith in the younger players by continually selecting this partnership. May get some glory from it but it is a very short sighted approach in my opinion.

If Schmidt persists with a somewhat conservative selection I think we are right to be a little bit worried, but throwing somebody like Henshaw in against England or Wales would have been an uncalculated risk.

I'd love to see Henshaw line up with BOD against Italy though

Notch wrote:I just don't get the problem Nachos. Sure Schmidt has Marshall and Henshaw in the squad shadowing their every move, learning all the time. Inevitably there will be a drop off but after BOD retires and this tournament finishes the main goal over the summer tour and autumn internationals will be to develop a centre partnership that will work in the 2015 Six Nations.

After all, Luke Marshall is getting test match experience and Jared Payne is hardly inexperienced either. I'm not saying it'll be a seamless transition, it'll take some time, but there's no point compromising our ability to win a tournament in the here and now so we can be a in a better position to win a tournament in a year or two.

True but it doesn't mean picking an inexperienced player (at international level) would weaken the team. It might even strengthen the team. Thats my main bugbear with Ireland.


The funny thing is that the problem down the years for Ireland is not that they're taking their eyes off the present by looking too far forward but they've actually took the eyes off the present by looking backwards to experienced players and ignoring better, in form players.


I think its right that they're trying to win tournaments instead of looking too far forward but I think they should do it, not by going down the safe Ireland route but by going down the 'take a chance' Welsh route.


The irony is the win at all costs mentality from the IRFU has probably cost Ireland a few 6 nations.

theslosty wrote:If Schmidt persists with a somewhat conservative selection I think we are right to be a little bit worried, but throwing somebody like Henshaw in against England or Wales would have been an uncalculated risk.

I'd love to see Henshaw line up with BOD against Italy though

I cant see BOD being rested for his last home game for Ireland to be honest.

For me, Schmidt has taken a rather overly cautious approach this 6N. An approach that seems focused on short term glory rather than long term gain. Not what i expected from a man hailed as the master tactician.

Like I said judge him after the Italy selection.

I am not going to Judge Schmidt at all to be honest. As i have said many times, he is the right man for the job. There is just a few things that i am concerned about but i am a miserable old feicar at the best of times

To be honest, I'd be all about the long term prospects in as much as it is sensible to be and I'm very impressed with what Schmidt is doing with guys like Kearney Jnr., McGrath, Moore, Jackson, Henderson, Marshall etc.

I'd also say that none of this has anything to do with tactics. This is selection, tactics is how the team selected actually plays- okay they significantly overlap and inform each other, but it seems a strange stick to beat him with.

profitius wrote:True but it doesn't mean picking an inexperienced player (at international level) would weaken the team. It might even strengthen the team. Thats my main bugbear with Ireland.

Aw, you have to be fair and look at these selection decisions individually. I think bringing in Henderson for Toner or Moore for Ross may very well strengthen the team- I think changing either of the two centres wouldn't despite the fact I don't massively rate D'Arcy or BOD anymore, both are definitely on their last legs. But BOD certainly offers more than Henshaw and Cave, Marshall vs. D'Arcy is a much closer call but I don't see how you can argue that Marshall is in better form there- D'Arcy is responding well to the challenge of Luke Marshall and Luke has had the exact same problem as he did last year, which is trying to hard to impress when back at Ulster and forcing the play.

I was looking forward to Marshall getting a game against Italy but it now looks unlikely after he took that knock to the head and with his history etc.

Now if Schmidt really is conservative we'll see Jennings coming in for Jordi Murphy and Donnacha Ryan coming in for Iain Henderson, Declan Fitzpatrick replacing Martin Moore, Tom Court ousting Jack McGrath, Darren Cave leapfrogging Robbie Henshaw etc.   Because it seems to me there are quite a few slots in the squad where he is going with youth.