Scotland (17) v France (19), 8 March

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Scotland    vs France   

RBS 6 Nations
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Saturday 8th March, 2014
KO 1700

Referee: Chris Pollock



Assistant Referees: George Clancy, JP Doyle

A. Squads

Scotland Squad REVISED:

Forwards: Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Geoff Cross, David Denton, Alasdair Dickinson, Ross Ford (all Edinburgh Rugby), Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby), Ryan Grant, Jonny Gray (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Moray Low, Pat MacArthur (both Glasgow Warriors), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan), Tim Swinson and Ryan Wilson (both Glasgow Warriors).

Backs: Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Jack Cuthbert, Nick De Luca (both Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres), Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby), Stuart Hogg, Ruaridh Jackson (both Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Taylor (Saracens) and Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors).

NO HARLEY, RENNIE or K LOW

French Squad:

Vincent Debaty, Thomas Domingo, Yannick Forestier, Brice Mach, Dimitri Szarzewski, Nicolas Mas, Rabah Slimani, Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri, Pascal Pape, Sebastien Vaahamahina, Virgile Bruni, Alexandre Lapandry, Wenceslas Lauret, Bernard le Roux, Damien Chouly, Antonie Claassen, Jean-Marc Doussain, Maxime Machenaud, Morgan Parra, Jules Plisson, Remi Tales, Mathieu Bastareaud, Gael Fickou, Remi Lamerat, Maxime Mermoz, Yoann Huget, Maxime Medard, Hugo Bonneval, Brice Dulin

B. Previous matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd7YAfmRSls  2013  L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_7_quuZcsY  2012  L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpi55BQmRM 2011    L

C. Teams

France Team:


France team: B Dulin (Castres); Y Huget (Toulouse), M Bastareaud (Toulon), M Mermoz (Toulon), M Medard (Toulouse); J Plisson (Stade Francais), M Machenaud (Racing Metro); T Domingo (Clermont Auvergne), B Mach (Castres), N Mas (Montpellier), Y Maestri (Toulouse), P Pape (Stade Francais, capt), S Vahaamahina (Perpignan), A Lapandry (Clermont Auvergne), D Chouly (Clermont Auvergne).

Replacements: G Guirado (Perpignan), V Debaty (Clermont Auvergne), R Slimani (Stade Francais), A Flanquart (Stade Francais), A Claassen (Castres), J-M Doussain (Toulouse), R Tales (Castres), G Fickou (Toulouse).

Scotland Team:



Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh); Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Johnny Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens, capt), David Denton (Edinburgh).
Replacements: Ross Ford (Edinburgh), INJ OUT Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh) IN Moray Low, Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors), Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Taylor (Saracens), Max Evans (Castres).

D. Watch out for...

Richie Gray https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSpiYWB-5Sk

Yoann Huget https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYWJyeLoUAs

PS Thanks to George Carlin for previous match threads. I've tried where possible to continue your style and structure.

Big blow given that it'll mean SJ picks Wilson at 6 against Wales, and we could have done with Lamont's physicality against a massive Welsh backline.

So we cannot blame that utter tw** Johnson for yesterday? Well yes we feckin can.    Why was Swinson on the bench yesterday when he has contributed nothing this 6Ns - well that apart from the 10 mins he was on gifting France the game with 2 pens and a woeful pass.   Not up to it unfortunately for him.    Johnny Gray is twice the player and should have been there.   Moray Low on the bench?   WTF was that about.  Jon Welsh could have covered both 1 and 3 and Ryan Grant who was out on his feet after 60 replaced.   Laidlaw who was better yesterday was needing replace and no sign of Cusiter.   Truly dismal.   Lacking clue is the politest thing you can say about Charlatan Johnson - who has conned the SRU (and press) big time.  Also while we are at it - sack the ground staff as well for the woeful playing surface.

Not the poor ground staff's fault that nematode and his wee worm friends have been chewing the roots of our pitch during the wettest winter on record.

Anyway. Onwards and upwards.

George, or wormy, get a match thread up for the wakes game

Nematode wrote:http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2014/rugby/story/217557.html

Beattie and Lamont to miss the Wales game.

I am actually more worried by the other news in that article that Ryan Grant is also questionable. He needs to learn how not to cough up the ball in contact but I thought that he had a huge game for us and worked his arse off.

Surely we need extra loose forward cover now? I have a horrible feeling SJ is going to choose 6. Denton 7. Fusaro 8. Brown or something equally daft just because Fozzy happens to be able to stand upright. Strokosch played the full 80 minutes as usual for Perp against Brive on 22 February but didn't feature in the team that got their backsides handed to them by Toulouse on 1 March. Is the problem that his club won't release him?

I have to say that as a big Tim Swinson fan, he really has struggled to adjust to the intensity of this tournament. He was great in the Quadrangular, so I'm not really sure what's happened to him.

Sad to hear that Halfpenny won't be available for Wales next week. Obviously it is good for our chances but he's a top player who's great to see play. Webb is also a doubt apparently.

Yeah, you're right Swinson does seem a bit off the boil currently. I'd like to see him at 6 a bit more as he'd be a useful carrier and his size could provide quite a formidable pack. Imagine FR, Hamilton(125kg), Gray(125kg), Swinson(117kg), Strauss (114kg), Denton (111kg) (or Rennie in the mix) for the SA game in the World Cup (Btw I see we play them in the summer).

Still say the last game should be handed to the supporters to pick the team by vote.

Again, no one wants to see any player injured, but with our penalty record, halfpenny being out us a god send.

I'm hoping SJ decides "stuff it, I'll put out the team that most folk think will work and then they'll see"

Both Gray brothers starting. Big jim on the bench.
Brown at 6
Barclay or rennie at 7
Denton at eight (would have been Beattie but for injury)

At ten, well, need to stick with meatball eh? No other option really

Wee max and Seymour on the wings I suppose.

We'll just need to wait and see eh

Nematode wrote:Yeah, you're right Swinson does seem a bit off the boil currently. I'd like to see him at 6 a bit more as he'd be a useful carrier and his size could provide quite a formidable pack. Imagine FR, Hamilton(125kg), Gray(125kg), Swinson(117kg), Strauss (114kg), Denton (111kg) (or Rennie in the mix) for the SA game in the World Cup (Btw I see we play them in the summer).

Power isn't all about weight, there are players who are pushing way above their weight like Warburton for instance, also Jonny Gray is 5 kg lighter than his older brother but he is more powerfull.

I can't begin to guess how disapointing that loss is for Scotland - I am English and was gutted with the result. I am not an SJ fan but can you blame him for that rediculous long miss pass when you had a 3 on1 overlap? I don't think so. I think the players need to take some responsibility and grow up a bit. There is talent there, but a lack of ..... guts, responsibility, ???? Scotland need to believe in themselves more - there is quality there. You should have beaten France by 10 -15 points yesterday you were so much better than them. But you just lack that killer ability. I think Vern Cotter will be great for you, it is just a shame it has taken so long to get him in place and I fera not soon enough for the World Cup..

Yup, the whole waiting a year thing is just nonsense. It's probably nothing but to me it means either the SRU couldn't afford to buy out cotter's contract or he places more importance on clermont than Scotland.

Or it could be that the man has values and he won't leave clermont until his work there is done?

We'll see what happens when he arrives.

I also hope the SRU and us fickle fans give cotter time. He'll have one set of AIs and a 6n to shape the team for the World Cup. Not long enough IMO but we'll need to make do. Just wish we'd got him a year ago.

I suspect the SRU thought he would be sacked once the announcement was made and miscalculated. Also perhaps that cotter has some principles

George Carlin wrote:
I am actually more worried by the other news in that article that Ryan Grant is also questionable. He needs to learn how not to cough up the ball in contact but I thought that he had a huge game for us and worked his arse off.

Surely we need extra loose forward cover now? I have a horrible feeling SJ is going to choose 6. Denton 7. Fusaro 8. Brown or something equally daft just because Fozzy happens to be able to stand upright. Strokosch played the full 80 minutes as usual for Perp against Brive on 22 February but didn't feature in the team that got their backsides handed to them by Toulouse on 1 March. Is the problem that his club won't release him?

I have to say that as a big Tim Swinson fan, he really has struggled to adjust to the intensity of this tournament. He was great in the Quadrangular, so I'm not really sure what's happened to him.

Agreed about grant, thought he put in a huge shift even if he was absolutely knacked for the last ten minutes. In general actually, I thought the whole front row did a good job, held their own in the scrum and all 3 carried well. And, it should be said given the abuse I've previously given him, that ford was pretty good for that last 30 minutes, only the one dodgy lineout and i think i even spotted some hooking going on in the scrum!   

I'm also concerned about the make up of our back-row for the wales game and live in fear and a SJ selection howler. Was a bit gutted we didn't get to see more of beattie and denton together. I know others would like a grafter type in there at 6, but I was relatively happy having two big ball carriers. It's a positive selection, saying "we're keen to get our hands on the ball and take the game to you" which i like, especially in a scotland team which has been a bit negative over the years. The amount of tackling work that gray gets through I feel would allow us to play with those 2 in the backrow, without the need for a chopper. However a real quality 7 (i hear we have a couple...) would be bloody fantastic.   

I think we can expect a Wilson, Brown, Denton back row, almost 100% sure. It's either Wilson or Fusaro so given we have a '7' and Wilson started more games, Wilson will start. And probably Evans. I'd question the bench as I can't see who SJ will go for - Fusaro might not cover enough bases like Strokosch could or Barclay    Also who gets the 23 shirt? It's either NDL, Fife or Jackson. We don't need 2 centres, or a 10 with Hogg, so I'd think Fife will bench.

Cotter also has this summer's tour thankfully.

Has anyone seen any interview with Saint-Andre yet? Would be interested to see what he said about it.

He is a man under pressure so will obviously be accentuating the positives, but France really were very poor.

The fact that the interception was the only time France really looked like scoring - against Scotland - says it all.

Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

So when are Scotland going to play to this seemingly mythical 'top level'?

Jimpy wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

So when are Scotland going to play to this seemingly mythical 'top level'?

Next year, when we will be 'Dark horses'

Jimpy wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

So when are Scotland going to play to this seemingly mythical 'top level'?

Well, that's the big question. Probably when we have a better coach, though I know that excuse can get rather tired, and when our players (particularly the young fellas like Weir) get more experience. We're on an upward curve, and we have actually improved significantly since the new batch of players have joined the squad.

On thing I noticed on the TV was how comprehensively we were out sung by the French in Murrayfield -


A sad day

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

So when are Scotland going to play to this seemingly mythical 'top level'?

Well, that's the big question. Probably when we have a better coach, though I know that excuse can get rather tired, and when our players (particularly the young fellas like Weir) get more experience. We're on an upward curve, and we have actually improved significantly since the new batch of players have joined the squad.

It's a very fair question, but there are genuinely good reasons why are aren't playing at our best yet - all are linked to the other:

1. Players Injured - there's no way that Scotland can afford to lose players like Sean Maitland, Tim Visser and Peter Horne to long term injuries as we have without that being felt keenly. The replacements aren't close to being the same quality, with the exception of Horne's replacements.

2. Players Out Of Position - several Scottish coaches in a row now have insisted on playing specialists out of position - Kelly Brown, Johnny Beattie and Ryan Wilson being the most recent victims. This never, ever works. There's a reason why Kelly Brown (6), John Barclay (7) and Johnny Beattie (8) have been our best back row in recent years. They're specialists in the correct positions whose games are completely complementary. We have hobbled our players' naturally most intuitive games because of silly sh!te like this.

3. Poor Selection -  granted, this is completely subjective, but the number of Scotland fans who have looked on in bewilderment at (for example) John Barclay, Al Strokosch, Pat MacArthur, Dougie Fife and Jon Welsh being ignored and the likes of Ross Ford, Max Evans, Rhubarb Jackson, Euan Murray and (to some) Chris Fusaro being included is too colossal to ignore. SJ is a poor, poor selector of players and player combinations. This is just a fact. In November, Kelly Brown, captain in his side’s win over Japan a week earlier, was bizarrely rested for the Autumn International against South Africa. We got hammered by the Boks. In response to that, Brown was also dropped as captain against England, then left out of the squad entirely, then reinstated a fortnight later. That's just mad, Ted.

4. Poor Gameplan - SJ has made no bones about the fact that his strategy in the first half of the 6N was for Scotland to kick the ball away, play for territory and hope that the opposition made mistakes. It was profoundly depressing for the players to do and utterly bizarre, given that it has taken Scotland 10 years to get a backline with the quality of Dunbar, Scott, Hogg and Seymour in it. Weird, weird stuff. At least Andy Robinson put in place a strategy that clearly played to the strengths of the meagre talent available to him. Johnson seems to have no tactical nous at all.

So all in all, ask any Scotland fan what 2014 BC means, they'll tell you it stands for "Before Cotter".

George Carlin wrote:
So all in all, ask any Scotland fan what 2014 BC means, they'll tell you it stands for "Before Cotter".

yer using the wrong abbreviation

the year is 2014 AD (after dip-schit)

Agreed, tattie

RDW_Scotland wrote:Has anyone seen any interview with Saint-Andre yet? Would be interested to see what he said about it.

He is a man under pressure so will obviously be accentuating the positives, but France really were very poor.

The fact that the interception was the only time France really looked like scoring - against Scotland - says it all.

according to PSA the positive is that they won and he was happy by the discpline and control (?) showed by the players. after that he mentionned that france have more wins this year than last! he sort of recognised that they only had 4 times clean ball to play with but no real clue of what to do with it (I think our 10 only passed the ball 5 times in the game).

George Carlin wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Still, the fact is that Scotland playing out of their skins were only good enough to lose by one point at home to a French team that looked like they'd only met in the car park just before the match.

I don't think we played out of our skins at all. We were decent in the first half, then poor in the second. That is nowhere near the top level for this group of players.

So when are Scotland going to play to this seemingly mythical 'top level'?

Well, that's the big question. Probably when we have a better coach, though I know that excuse can get rather tired, and when our players (particularly the young fellas like Weir) get more experience. We're on an upward curve, and we have actually improved significantly since the new batch of players have joined the squad.

It's a very fair question, but there are genuinely good reasons why are aren't playing at our best yet - all are linked to the other:

1. Players Injured - there's no way that Scotland can afford to lose players like Sean Maitland, Tim Visser and Peter Horne to long term injuries as we have without that being felt keenly. The replacements aren't close to being the same quality, with the exception of Horne's replacements.

2. Players Out Of Position - several Scottish coaches in a row now have insisted on playing specialists out of position - Kelly Brown, Johnny Beattie and Ryan Wilson being the most recent victims. This never, ever works. There's a reason why Kelly Brown (6), John Barclay (7) and Johnny Beattie (8) have been our best back row in recent years. They're specialists in the correct positions whose games are completely complementary. We have hobbled our players' naturally most intuitive games because of silly sh!te like this.

3. Poor Selection -  granted, this is completely subjective, but the number of Scotland fans who have looked on in bewilderment at (for example) John Barclay, Al Strokosch, Pat MacArthur, Dougie Fife and Jon Welsh being ignored and the likes of Ross Ford, Max Evans, Rhubarb Jackson, Euan Murray and (to some) Chris Fusaro being included is too colossal to ignore. SJ is a poor, poor selector of players and player combinations. This is just a fact. In November, Kelly Brown, captain in his side’s win over Japan a week earlier, was bizarrely rested for the Autumn International against South Africa. We got hammered by the Boks. In response to that, Brown was also dropped as captain against England, then left out of the squad entirely, then reinstated a fortnight later. That's just mad, Ted.

4. Poor Gameplan - SJ has made no bones about the fact that his strategy in the first half of the 6N was for Scotland to kick the ball away, play for territory and hope that the opposition made mistakes. It was profoundly depressing for the players to do and utterly bizarre, given that it has taken Scotland 10 years to get a backline with the quality of Dunbar, Scott, Hogg and Seymour in it. Weird, weird stuff. At least Andy Robinson put in place a strategy that clearly played to the strengths of the meagre talent available to him. Johnson seems to have no tactical nous at all.

So all in all, ask any Scotland fan what 2014 BC means, they'll tell you it stands for "Before Cotter".

Agreed George, especially with regards the obsession of not playing the back rowers in the right positions - traditionally we have quality here and believe the current crop is pretty good, but only if you play them in the correct positions. Couple of things to add.

- since the dawn of professionalism, I think we have lacked in being streetwise. We are getting better and actually i don't mind seeing us run some of the blocking lines that other teams have been doing for years, that to me is progress. Where we still lack significantly is playing the particular referee at the breakdown. England provided a master class of slowing the ball down against Wales, listening for the referees instruction to leave the ball alone then, holding on a half second longer then releasing. They worked out what Polite would allow and played to the letter and added just a little bit more. Scotland by contrast, either don't hear the refs calls or ignore them, if the ref thinks you have not released the player at the tackle and says so, no amount of 'well I'll just keep hold because I think the ref has made a mistake' is going to wash. Every ref is different and at the breakdown in particular we need to play to the ref on the day, otherwise we will continue with our astronomical penalty count.

- player weights, when it comes to selecting an international front five in particular, ballast is critical, and afraid that is what counts against Pat McAuthur and Tim Swinson as well. Until we have better control at tight head (come on Cusack you good thing), the hooker needs to be more than 15.25 stone. Don't think Hall is as good a hooker as MacArthur in all round game, but would have him on the pitch for Scotland first at the moment purely on weight. As for what Welsh has done to offend, who knows, his absence together with the choice to switch him from loosehead is equally a mystery. He was a destructive scrummager on the loosehead side, and while I understand that we need to marshall our resources given our limited numbers would prefer to have him getting stuck in on the loosehead side as he did against Italy a fews back and causing real problems than not have him making the squad at tighthead.

- oh and can't wait for the return of Horne, think one of the main differences at Glasgow this year is the additional option he gives and pressure he takes off Weir or Jackson at 10 when in the centre or at 10 himself. Something which could also tell for Scotland too.

I left the stadium far happier after this game than I did after the England and Ireland games (not saying a huge amount), and the fact is that France did to us what we've done to many sides over the years: hang in there, kick goals and sneak a win. We have moved forward as a side throughout the tournament, albeit from a really poor start in the first two matches. Hopefully we can finish well against a thus far uninspired Welsh side.

On the game itself we had some pretty decent performances. The entire front row did an excellent job at the set piece, and Hamilton and Gray put in a decent effort at the lineout. This made a huge difference. I didn't notice Ryan Wilson at all though, and do wonder whether SJ will treat him with the same ruthlessness that he seems to have reserved solely for Kelly Brown. Brown at 6 with Fusaro at 7 would be the obvious combination for me against Wales. I thought Denton had a decent game, although his spill in contact running out of the 22 was really poor. Good shift, but not MOTM. I thought Gray had a better game personally.

The backs were ok, and played some decent stuff in places. Defensively they were pretty good as well - I never felt particularly threatened by France, and they got into the big French ball carriers pretty well. Scott was probably the pick of the backs, and Evans looked feisty off the bench (and will presumably now start against Wales). Weir was probably the biggest issue. A couple of kicks out on the full plus he offers precious little threat with ball in hand. Enough has been said about the intercept. Suffice to say that his execution on that occassion was the biggest single moment in the match, costing us 14 points. Thank goodness it wasn't Parks or De Luca throwing that pass - death threats would have been issued!

Final word to do to the referee. Utterly incompetent performance all round. Please God never let this man loose on an international rugby match again. Totally lost control of the scrum, pretty much flipped a coin at the breakdown, and missed Dunbar's block leading up to the Seymour try.

Got to be honest here, I thought we played well.

Straight off the back it was nice to see our pack do so well. Parity in the scrum against probably one of the best Scrums in the tourney.

Our lineout was excellent, and consistently supplied us with good clean ball.

Given time a backline that contains Scott, Dunbar, Visser, Maitland and Hogg will surely score tries.


The bright spots were

Denton - Exceptional performance and did everything you need from your no.8.
Cross- who showed why he should have been playing instead of Lowe from the beginning. His handling of Domingo (IMO the best loosie in the world) was nothing short of masterful. Compare his performance to Murray's performance last year when the good reverend was torn a new one.

Scott & Dunbar - The answer to our midfield problem

Hogg and Seymore. I'll always have a space for Visser in my Scotland 15 but Maitland might have some troubles getting past Seymore. Lamont was a bit anonymous. Seymore's try was evident of the threat Hogg poses when coming into the line, everyone thought Hogg was getting that ball, a great move.

What worries me is the lack of decent 10. Jackson can't cut it as an international 10 and after this weekend neither can Weir.

Weir did very little at 10 apart from put Huget in for a 14 point swing, even me as an enlightened former tighthead was apoplectic when with a 2 man overlap we just couldn't play the ball through the hands, call it inexperience, or naive if you prefer but I'd rather call it how it is. Bad, Bad BAD game management. If you can't learn at mini rugby how best to exploit a 2 man overlap why do we think the crucible of a 6N test match will help teach you?

Weir sent out another one of those hospital passes in our dire performance against South Africa in the Autumn for those of us with long memories.

So what do we do? Who are the candidates. I'm weary of knee jerk reactions but Jackson and Weir haven't ever looked like cutting it at this level. Sexton, Priestland and Farrell have never looked as inept of devoid of ideas or unable to execute the basics.

What can we do an who can replace them? Will Cotter give the likes of Russel, Leonard or anyone else a chance at 10? Horne? Heathcoate? Tonks?

What's apparent is we were let down by the lack of a skilful 10. Hogg came in at first receiver at points and did look dangerous but do we want our best counter attacking fullback being bogged down in the midfield?

Although :

9. Hart
10. Hogg
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Seymore
15. Maitland

Is it just me or does that look alright?

Riskysports wrote:On thing I noticed on the TV was how comprehensively we were out sung by the French in Murrayfield -


A sad day

I was at Murrayfield and I wouldn't say it was necessarily bad support, but more there were TONS of French fans waving their baguettes. Although it's a worrying trend that foreign teams do seem to have noisier support. I'd say maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the crowd was French. Wasn't the noisiest Murrayfield I've been to definitely.

BTW I'm up to my shoulders in work so won't be able to make the Welsh thread.

Sorry

  

next person to mention Hogg at 10 should be banned from the forum I say!

I'm afraid I will always veto the selection of a player at international level in a position, particularly a specialist position like fly half, in which he does not play club rugby. If Hogg is to be the solution at 10 for Scotland, he needs to be the solution at Glasgow. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 games either, I'm talking about a run of games, say between now and the end of the season. That's the sort of committment we'll need before we move our best fullback away from the position at which he's excelled and from which he made it onto a Lions tour, into a new role. The same goes for Greg Tonks.

As for Maitland at 15, I've yet to see him play well at 15 if I'm being honest. He seems to do better on the wing. Yes, Seymour has produced a couple of nice finishes in a Scotland jersey thus far, but his positioning, kicking from hand and defence haven't looked great. Once Maitland returns to full fitness I think he'll come back onto the right wing, where his link play and running lines can be most effective. Hogg for me is an outstanding 15. Has a huge boot, decent one or one tackler, outstanding counterattacker and great pace. I wouldn't move him.

10 is clearly the bigger issue. Weir should play against Wales but thus far hasn't been impressive in any aspect of the game other than his last minute drop goal. Jackson is clearly the better attacking option and the more creative player, but doesn't manage the game well (not that Weir as done particularly well in that respect). Heathcote doesn't play rugby these days, and Finn Russell hasn't played anything like enough at 10 to justify being added to the squad. Leonard has played more, but hasn't shown much at Edinburgh to suggest he'll be better than Jackson or Weir.

The two square pegs best suited to fit the round hole are Greg Tonks and Peter Horne. Both have played a bit (albeit not enough at this stage) at 10 and, given limited opportunity, have played quite well. I'd like to see more. Hogg is a better 15 than Tonks, and Scott is a better 12 than Horne, so having both of these guys playing 10 for Edinburgh and Glasgow respectively would be good for Scotland, and I think good for Edinburgh and Glasgow as well. It would also mean Dunbar getting a shot at 12 for Glasgow with Mark Bennett getting some rugby at 13. Cuthbert would play 15 for Edinburgh. Could work well if Tonnie and Solomons buy into it.

Both Tonks and Horne are physically strong, have good pace and side stepping skills, are comfortable running with ball in hand and can kick the ball a country mile. Both are also strong tacklers. Distribution skills will need to be worked on at club level, but I think they'd both be good options for the WC squad, particularly given their abilities to cover other positions (Horne covering 12 and Tonks covering 15).

If I were Scott Johnson, perish the thought, I'd be asking Toonie and Solomons for both Horne and Tonks to play as much at 10 as possible.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm afraid I will always veto the selection of a player at international level in a position, particularly a specialist position like fly half, in which he does not play club rugby. If Hogg is to be the solution at 10 for Scotland, he needs to be the solution at Glasgow. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 games either, I'm talking about a run of games, say between now and the end of the season. That's the sort of committment we'll need before we move our best fullback away from the position at which he's excelled and from which he made it onto a Lions tour, into a new role. The same goes for Greg Tonks.

As for Maitland at 15, I've yet to see him play well at 15 if I'm being honest. He seems to do better on the wing. Yes, Seymour has produced a couple of nice finishes in a Scotland jersey thus far, but his positioning, kicking from hand and defence haven't looked great. Once Maitland returns to full fitness I think he'll come back onto the right wing, where his link play and running lines can be most effective. Hogg for me is an outstanding 15. Has a huge boot, decent one or one tackler, outstanding counterattacker and great pace. I wouldn't move him.

10 is clearly the bigger issue. Weir should play against Wales but thus far hasn't been impressive in any aspect of the game other than his last minute drop goal. Jackson is clearly the better attacking option and the more creative player, but doesn't manage the game well (not that Weir as done particularly well in that respect). Heathcote doesn't play rugby these days, and Finn Russell hasn't played anything like enough at 10 to justify being added to the squad. Leonard has played more, but hasn't shown much at Edinburgh to suggest he'll be better than Jackson or Weir.

The two square pegs best suited to fit the round hole are Greg Tonks and Peter Horne. Both have played a bit (albeit not enough at this stage) at 10 and, given limited opportunity, have played quite well. I'd like to see more. Hogg is a better 15 than Tonks, and Scott is a better 12 than Horne, so having both of these guys playing 10 for Edinburgh and Glasgow respectively would be good for Scotland, and I think good for Edinburgh and Glasgow as well. It would also mean Dunbar getting a shot at 12 for Glasgow with Mark Bennett getting some rugby at 13. Cuthbert would play 15 for Edinburgh. Could work well if Tonnie and Solomons buy into it.

Both Tonks and Horne are physically strong, have good pace and side stepping skills, are comfortable running with ball in hand and can kick the ball a country mile. Both are also strong tacklers. Distribution skills will need to be worked on at club level, but I think they'd both be good options for the WC squad, particularly given their abilities to cover other positions (Horne covering 12 and Tonks covering 15).

If I were Scott Johnson, perish the thought, I'd be asking Toonie and Solomons for both Horne and Tonks to play as much at 10 as possible.

Agreed. Let me be clear I don't think Hogg is our best option at 10. I just used him in that backline example. The fact is though he was excellent when he came in at first receiver on Saturday. Hogg is our best 15 so I'm weary about shuffling him around the backline ala Paterson.

Tonks and Horne would be my picks to bed into the 10s at Glasgow and Edinburgh but with Jackson and Weir capable club players I can't see Toonie shifting them out of those positions to give horne game time at 10.

On the same subject, this would be my 30 man squad, assuming I was able to get my own way as noted above:

Forwards (16):

Props - Nel, Cross, Grant and Dickinson
Hookers - Ford, Lawson and MacArthur
Locks - R Gray, J Gray, Gilchrist and Swinson
Flankers - Brown, Strauss and Rennie
Number 8 - Denton and Beattie

Backs (14):

Scrum halves - Cusiter, Laidlaw and Hart
Fly Halves - Horne, Weir and Tonks
Centres - Scott, Dunbar and Bennett (Horne and Fife covering)
Wings - Visser, Maitland, Seymour and Fife
Fullback - Hogg (Tonks and Maitland covering)

The problem with Horne playing 10 is that it nudges Finn Russell further down the pecking order.

If i were in charge I'd be moving Finn or Peter over to Edinburgh.

You'd then see Tonks and Finn or Peter fighting it out for the 10 shirt at edinburgh and Weir and Finn or Peter fighting it out for thr 10 shirt at Glasgow (assuming Jacko does move off to pastures new)

Peter Horne by all accounts is currently a 12.  Finn Russell can also play 12. It would mean these guys would also provide 12 cover. Edinburgh have Matt Scott who realistically isnt going to be displaced from the 12 shirt. But he could sure use a back up and the current bunch at Edinburgh are not the same standard.  Glasgow you could argue would have Dunbar at 12 but I think he is doing fine at 13.  You could potentially see any mixture of Weir/Russell/Horne at 10 Russell/Horne/Dunbar at 12 and Dunbar/Bennett at 13

Tonks has shown promise but I think that if Horne or Russell moved to Edinburgh next season, they would benefit from the move rather that staying at Glasgow and have more to offer at 10 than Tonks. Finn and Peter would both need to decide if they wanted to play 12 or 10.  If you want to play 12, stay at Glasgow, if you want to play 10, move to Edinburgh. Possible future Scotland standoff?

Give me Tom Ryder over Swinson any day, less spectacular but does the basics right at least. I hope we don't see Swinson in a Scottish shirt anytime soon.

Jeezo players fall from grace quickly here - at the start of the championship Swinson was a nailed on started for 90% of people on here, now he's the Antichrist!

I really don't understand this sudden dislike of Tim Swinson, particularly from Glasgow fans. He's been your most consistent lock for ages, and fully deserves to be there or thereabouts the Scotland side. Sure, he's had a quiet first 6 Nations, but he's only had one chance to start, whereas others seem to have had countless opportunities (had you judged Jim Hamilton solely on the Ireland game he'd never play international rugby ever again).

Having played outstanding well for several seasons in a Glasgow shirt, having playing in the AIs and won MOTM against Japan, he seems to be persona non grata with some Scotland fans already. Ridiculous in my opinion.

Not me - all I said was that Swinson had been disappointing by his standards. Still think that he and Gray are the future until Gilchrist and Jonny show a little more.

I did laugh at RDW's email. If you combine FES' Rule of Selection with Scots Posters Rules of Re-selection, then in aggregate you need to play at least 80 professional games in the correct position before you stand a chance of being selected and, once selected, you have 80 minutes to prove yourself before being dropped forever.

To be fair my first choice lock partnership at Glasgow would be Gray Jr and Ryder, then bring Nakarawa off the bench to wreak havoc.

Sure Swinson will put the occasionnal big hit but he is also often found wanting at the breakdown, at the end of the day he could well be more suited to 6 than 4 but there is the Toulon game that stinks...

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really don't understand this sudden dislike of Tim Swinson, particularly from Glasgow fans. He's been your most consistent lock for ages, and fully deserves to be there or thereabouts the Scotland side. Sure, he's had a quiet first 6 Nations, but he's only had one chance to start, whereas others seem to have had countless opportunities (had you judged Jim Hamilton solely on the Ireland game he'd never play international rugby ever again).

Having played outstanding well for several seasons in a Glasgow shirt, having playing in the AIs and won MOTM against Japan, he seems to be persona non grata with some Scotland fans already. Ridiculous in my opinion.

I agree, apart from giuving away the match winning penalty he did ok.

Weir is set for pelters. One of the worst 14 point swings I have ever seen. Certain score at one end for Huget to snap up that interception.

I'm also pretty happy with how we played. Our guys played well. One silly mistake turned the game on it's head.

Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

George Carlin wrote:I did laugh at RDW's email. If you combine FES' Rule of Selection with Scots Posters Rules of Re-selection, then in aggregate you need to play at least 80 professional games in the correct position before you stand a chance of being selected and, once selected, you have 80 minutes to prove yourself before being dropped forever.

  

Quite right. With this rate of selection and churn, we probably need about 60 pro sides in Scotland!

I've actually come round to Jim Hamilton the last two games. If he has the right pack around him I think he is a good player to have in the team, if he manages to stop giving away stupid penalties and yellow card (which he has done the last two games).

It was clear to see that him and Swinson are not a good combo as they are both too slow.  Hamilton has worked well with Gray as Gray is so athletic it is like having another backrow in the team.

Let's face it - if Hamilton p**ses me off watching him, imagine what he must be doing to the other team! We need a bit of nasty in the pack and he provides that - the Gray brothers are just too polite.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

Half of the papers are reporting that it was Kelly Brown who infringed. Damn these modern headguards.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

I was in the North Stand so really couldn't see it. The Sunday Times described it as one of those which could have gone either way.

Still, why give him the benefit of the doubt.....it's not like he's really done much to earn a shot at international rugby, and apparently Tom Ryder is now better, so let's get him in against Wales. If he doesn't play well against Wales, then we can ditch him.

The real problem has been filling the shoes of Al Kellock. 56 caps of consistent excellence. Even when he went missing for whole tournaments, you always knew he was getting through piles of "unseen work".

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

Half of the papers are reporting that it was Kelly Brown who infringed. Damn these modern headguards.

Why don't we just ban them both from playing international rugby?   

For the little anecdote i watched the game with 3 others that aren't exactly rugby fans but aren't noobs either, when Swinson came on i told them i would prefer Jonny, Richie younger brother but that Swinson won't let the team down...

Does anyone actually know what the penalty was for.

From what I saw the guy got tackled, Kelly Brown went over the top to Jackal and got pinged.

Kelly Brown didn't make the tackle so surely that's ok?

I have seen players make the tackle get back to their feet and then jackal for the ball so I must confess the penalty confused me.