Scotland (17) v France (19), 8 March

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Scotland    vs France   

RBS 6 Nations
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Saturday 8th March, 2014
KO 1700

Referee: Chris Pollock



Assistant Referees: George Clancy, JP Doyle

A. Squads

Scotland Squad REVISED:

Forwards: Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Geoff Cross, David Denton, Alasdair Dickinson, Ross Ford (all Edinburgh Rugby), Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby), Ryan Grant, Jonny Gray (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Moray Low, Pat MacArthur (both Glasgow Warriors), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan), Tim Swinson and Ryan Wilson (both Glasgow Warriors).

Backs: Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Jack Cuthbert, Nick De Luca (both Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Max Evans (Castres), Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby), Stuart Hogg, Ruaridh Jackson (both Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Taylor (Saracens) and Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors).

NO HARLEY, RENNIE or K LOW

French Squad:

Vincent Debaty, Thomas Domingo, Yannick Forestier, Brice Mach, Dimitri Szarzewski, Nicolas Mas, Rabah Slimani, Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri, Pascal Pape, Sebastien Vaahamahina, Virgile Bruni, Alexandre Lapandry, Wenceslas Lauret, Bernard le Roux, Damien Chouly, Antonie Claassen, Jean-Marc Doussain, Maxime Machenaud, Morgan Parra, Jules Plisson, Remi Tales, Mathieu Bastareaud, Gael Fickou, Remi Lamerat, Maxime Mermoz, Yoann Huget, Maxime Medard, Hugo Bonneval, Brice Dulin

B. Previous matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd7YAfmRSls  2013  L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_7_quuZcsY  2012  L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpi55BQmRM 2011    L

C. Teams

France Team:


France team: B Dulin (Castres); Y Huget (Toulouse), M Bastareaud (Toulon), M Mermoz (Toulon), M Medard (Toulouse); J Plisson (Stade Francais), M Machenaud (Racing Metro); T Domingo (Clermont Auvergne), B Mach (Castres), N Mas (Montpellier), Y Maestri (Toulouse), P Pape (Stade Francais, capt), S Vahaamahina (Perpignan), A Lapandry (Clermont Auvergne), D Chouly (Clermont Auvergne).

Replacements: G Guirado (Perpignan), V Debaty (Clermont Auvergne), R Slimani (Stade Francais), A Flanquart (Stade Francais), A Claassen (Castres), J-M Doussain (Toulouse), R Tales (Castres), G Fickou (Toulouse).

Scotland Team:



Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors), Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott (Edinburgh), Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh); Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors), Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh), Richie Gray (Castres), Jim Hamilton (Montpellier), Johnny Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens, capt), David Denton (Edinburgh).
Replacements: Ross Ford (Edinburgh), INJ OUT Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh) IN Moray Low, Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors), Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Duncan Taylor (Saracens), Max Evans (Castres).

D. Watch out for...

Richie Gray https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSpiYWB-5Sk

Yoann Huget https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYWJyeLoUAs

PS Thanks to George Carlin for previous match threads. I've tried where possible to continue your style and structure.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

I was in the North Stand so really couldn't see it.

I was actually very lucky with my seats - we arrived to find we wee in the SE corner, about 16 rows back on the bottom tier, we thought our chances of seeing anything were zlitch! Ended up seeing both Scotland tries close up as well as the last minute penalty.

Feel sorry for people in the NW corner - they would only have seen the interception pass and not much else.   

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Does anyone actually know what the penalty was for.

From what I saw the guy got tackled, Kelly Brown went over the top to Jackal and got pinged.

Kelly Brown didn't make the tackle so surely that's ok?

I have seen players make the tackle get back to their feet and then jackal for the ball so I must confess the penalty confused me.

From watching it on TV I think he said the player didn't release the ball carrier before competing for the ball - a 50/50 call that was more like 90/10 against us on the day throughout the game.

I thought it was for playing the ball on the ground at first, as the ball popped out.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Does anyone actually know what the penalty was for.

From what I saw the guy got tackled, Kelly Brown went over the top to Jackal and got pinged.

Kelly Brown didn't make the tackle so surely that's ok?

I have seen players make the tackle get back to their feet and then jackal for the ball so I must confess the penalty confused me.

Which one the last one? It was Swinson not releasing the player.

The one before that was for Swinson coming from the side (imho the crucial one as we were cruising in France half....)

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've actually come round to Jim Hamilton the last two games. If he has the right pack around him I think he is a good player to have in the team, if he manages to stop giving away stupid penalties and yellow card (which he has done the last two games).

It was clear to see that him and Swinson are not a good combo as they are both too slow.  Hamilton has worked well with Gray as Gray is so athletic it is like having another backrow in the team.

Let's face it - if Hamilton p**ses me off watching him, imagine what he must be doing to the other team! We need a bit of nasty in the pack and he provides that - the Gray brothers are just too polite.

Hamilton has always been like this. When the game is played at a pace he can handle he's always been a complete pest to the other side, like a less good version of Albacete. Pulls jersey, stands in the way at the ruck, barges people at the lineout, running blocking lines on the kick/chase, follows through on players long after they've released the ball - he's got all the tricks in the book. Problem is that when the game is quick (England last year or Ireland this year) he's nowhere. The SH sides, Ireland and England all play at a tempo that leaves Big Jim behind, and once he's out of the game he usually does something stupid to influence it instead.

We're trying to build for the future according to SJ (although there's been plenty mixed messages on that front), and I just don't see Hamilton as a big part of that. I would focus on the Gray brothers with Gilchrist and Swinson as back-up personally. Still, Hamilton was good yesterday and had one of his better games. The lineout and scrum went well, and he cause the French problems. Luckily they arrived with a slow and immobile pack, just as Big Jim likes it.

Also worth noting that Geoff Cross praised the rest of the pack and guys pushing behind him for the strong scrum effort - Hamilton is the one with his head up Geoff's arse (poor chap).

I was on about the match winning penalty Vince.

To me it looked like Swinson made the tackle and then Kelly Brown tried to force the turnover. The sort of thing Barclay, McCaw, Pocock, Warburton, Wood, Dusatoir etc do all game long and never get penalized.

The refereeing of the game is so inconsistent it is no longer a fair game IMO.

We love a panto villain. For poor Swinson he has had a very very quiet 6ns - why? Because the games where he has been given some time in were part of a forward pack being utterly mullered. Then he came on and gave away "that penalty"

Any player can do 10 things right and one thing wrong and be remembered for the one wrong thing. We fans are a fickle bunch.

Never has a last minute boo boo been so evident since RoG made "that kick pass"

Put it this way, had Chris Pillock's coin landed tails rather than heads, he'd have allowed that steal and we'd all be praising Swinson and Brown for winning the crucial turnover that sealed the win.

If we need a scapegoat for the defeat then look no further than Weir. He had a poor game, and not just the intercept. He kicked out on the full several times, and had enough ball to achieve a lot more than he did. 80 minutes to forget.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I was on about the match winning penalty Vince.

To me it looked like Swinson made the tackle and then Kelly Brown tried to force the turnover. The sort of thing Barclay, McCaw, Pocock, Warburton, Wood, Dusatoir etc do all game long and never get penalized.

The refereeing of the game is so inconsistent it is no longer a fair game IMO.

Not sure how biased or not we are but the Irish often got away with this "release the player" part of the game, maybe they just have different tackling techniques...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I was on about the match winning penalty Vince.

To me it looked like Swinson made the tackle and then Kelly Brown tried to force the turnover. The sort of thing Barclay, McCaw, Pocock, Warburton, Wood, Dusatoir etc do all game long and never get penalized.

The refereeing of the game is so inconsistent it is no longer a fair game IMO.

"That penalty" was purely down to Swinson.

What happened was that The French player was tackled by two scottish players.  Tim Swinson was one of them.  When they all landed, Swinson did not release the player.  As they hit the deck, Swinson pushed the ball out of the frenchmans arms towards the Scotland players.  Kelly Brown was 2/3 foot away and when the ball squirted out he picked it up and started running.

It was a clear penalty and Swinson should have known better.  But in the heat of the game you see players doing this quite often.  You also see players getting away with it because the ref doesnt see it.  In this case, the ref did see it, was a stone wall infringement and was right to be given.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Does anyone actually know what the penalty was for.

From what I saw the guy got tackled, Kelly Brown went over the top to Jackal and got pinged.

Kelly Brown didn't make the tackle so surely that's ok?

I have seen players make the tackle get back to their feet and then jackal for the ball so I must confess the penalty confused me.

Pollock was right from the first whistle applying his version of the tackle laws and he was pretty explicit about it - our failure to adapt and learn is a real worry.  He simply asked that both tackler and tackle assist clearly demonstrate release before going back to contest the ball.  We may not be used to that interpretation, but my 6-yr old lad had cottoned on after the third penalty we gave away

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Incidentally, Swinson is claiming innocence with that last penalty saying he was nowhere near the ball!

I was in the North Stand so really couldn't see it.

I was actually very lucky with my seats - we arrived to find we wee in the SE corner, about 16 rows back on the bottom tier, we thought our chances of seeing anything were zlitch! Ended up seeing both Scotland tries close up as well as the last minute penalty.

Feel sorry for people in the NW corner - they would only have seen the interception pass and not much else.   

I hope you claimed and asked for yer money back - they cannot expect paying fans to sit in urine, even if the play on the pitch is extracting it

I can't really tell if I am viewing it objectively or not. All I can say is I have seen guys do what Brown did and the opposition player would get pinged for "not releasing", however in this case Brown or Swinson got pinged for "not rolling away".

I have watched rugby for nearly 16 years and played it for over 10 and that decision confused me.

I agree that failing to adapt is concerning, I assumed at the very least that things would improve after the analysts would have pointed it out after half time.

However what really rankles is the disparity between referees interpretations of the ruck. Watching the England - Wales game yesterday the difference in approach to the ruck between Poite & Pollock for instance is huge. Our kiwi 'friend' would have been whistling to a samba tune had he been reffing yesterdays game.

GLove39 wrote:I agree that failing to adapt is concerning, I assumed at the very least that things would improve after the analysts would have pointed it out after half time.

However what really rankles is the disparity between referees interpretations of the ruck. Watching the England - Wales game yesterday the difference in approach to the ruck between Poite & Pollock for instance is huge. Our kiwi 'friend' would have been whistling to a samba tune had he been reffing yesterdays game.

And this is my point.

You shouldn't have to "adapt". The rules are the rules and shouldn't be ambiguous. They are black and white and shouldn't be open to interpretation.

It's not the reason we lost. "Wee Dunky's" 14 point give away knocked the stuffing out of us, but that was a very murky penalty to swing the match on.

For all the guff SJ spouts, he does have a point to ask how a team that was clearly dominating the match at a 13-5 penalty count against after an hour.

It is a sad day for rugby if it has got to the point that a team can have more ball and more territory but give away substantially more penalties - means refs are penalising the people with the ball, not the defence.

Minor point but after the hour it was 11-2 on the penalty count. So much for SH ref's giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team...

At the end of the day though it's immaterial, we should never have put ourselves in that position. We should have been picking and drive very slowly in Frances 22 following a big kick to touch from that penalty with 5 minutes to go.

Agree with Radge. You cannot allow a sport to depend so much on the identity of the ref. Chris Pollock's interpretation of the breakdown and scrum is pretty unique, so either he is wrong, or Owens, Joubert, Walsh, Poite and Barnes are. All refs have their small differences, but Pollock's interpretations create a fundamentally different game. He was lost at sea at the scrum as well. We lost a huge chunk of the game whilst he messed around at the scrum. I honestly don't think he favoured one team above the other, but both teams just looked lost at times trying to figure out what he was trying to achieve. Joubert can be a stickler, but at least you get the gist of what he's looking for.

Pollock should not be an international ref.

I'm pretty sure too Pollock 1st penalty against Dr Geoff was based purely on reputation, rest of the game showed how wrong he was.

The first penalty wad because the pitch disintegrated - something beattie pointed out to the ref.

When have you ever seen the ref give a scrum penalty on the very first scrum?

RDW_Scotland wrote:The first penalty wad because the pitch disintegrated - something beattie pointed out to the ref.

When have you ever seen the ref give a scrum penalty on the very first scrum?

This is genuinely the 1st time i have seen this.

We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

I don't think Pollock was that bad. Certainly no better or worse than previous reffing examples we've had this year.

No ruck interpretation required. Swinson played the ball on the ground. Penalty

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday!

Bang on. The last game at Murrayfield springs to mind where every single player on the pitch was rank rotten.

At least in this game our pack stood up, won ball, had parity in the scrum (Domingo was very lucky Pollock didn't ping him for some of the stuff he was up to. At one point his head was in the tighthead slot whilst Cross' head was in the loose position).

Again I'm not blaming the Ref, we made a critical mistake that totally changed the complexion of the game. As a team our pack got a B+, our backs got a B- so overall a we gained a solid B for that game.

You can't hang of one mistake and call it a disaster. I think both teams struggled to "adapt" to "the slapped Pollock's" interperatation of the rules.

Scotland only have themselves to blame on being ahead on the penalty count this six nations. Yes there should not be inconsistent interpretation by refs, but everyone else seems to work it out. Main problems:

- selective hearing. You hear the ref on the TV saying hands off, most other teams seem to hear hands off from the ref, but there are a number of scottish players, not all, that just seem too ignore the instruction.

- he who casts the first stone. Might be my cynicism coming through, but if you race ahead on the penalty count early on it keeps on counting against you, by and large if you get ahead you stay ahead. Its human nature to have biases, refs included - you see someone doing something, so you keep a beady eye out for more of the same. So instead choose a low profile, let the other team get ahead in the indiscretions first, then start infringing!!

- play the ref. Why do we never seem to play the bloomin ref, yes they are inconsistent, but for feck sake work out what you need to do for the day.

- get a scrum that works. Because we tend to be on the receiving end at the moment in the scrum, the ref is already looking at us losing the contact and penalising us, genuinely think this counts against us as it filters through to the loose - 'just penalised this guy at scrum time, his hands are all over it, ping'

all the other things we can do something about, but our scrum and the tone it sets for the ref?

[quote="RuggerRadge2611"]

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday![/quote


Bang on. The last game at Murrayfield springs to mind where every single player on the pitch was rank rotten.

At least in this game our pack stood up, won ball, had parity in the scrum (Domingo was very lucky Pollock didn't ping him for some of the stuff he was up to. At one point his head was in the tighthead slot whilst Cross' head was in the loose position).

Again I'm not blaming the Ref, we made a critical mistake that totally changed the complexion of the game. As a team our pack got a B+, our backs got a B- so overall a we gained a solid B for that game.

You can't hang of one mistake and call it a disaster. I think both teams struggled to "adapt" to "the slapped Pollock's" interperatation of the rules.

Radge ffs ! Are you delusional ? We feckin lost the game. A solid B my arse. A rock solid, Muppet E- minus more like.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday!

Bang on. The last game at Murrayfield springs to mind where every single player on the pitch was rank rotten.

At least in this game our pack stood up, won ball, had parity in the scrum (Domingo was very lucky Pollock didn't ping him for some of the stuff he was up to. At one point his head was in the tighthead slot whilst Cross' head was in the loose position).

Again I'm not blaming the Ref, we made a critical mistake that totally changed the complexion of the game. As a team our pack got a B+, our backs got a B- so overall a we gained a solid B for that game.

You can't hang off one mistake and call it a disaster. I think both teams struggled to "adapt" to "the slapped Pollock's" interperatation of the rules.

I don't even understand this blaming the loss on Weir's mistake - Scotland were leading with 5 minutes to go - all they had to do was stuff the ball up the jumper, trundle around the corner with support to ensure a recycle, and the game was won - but no, we couldn't even manage that. Somehow we feic up our support, a player is marginally isolated, the support realizes that he's late so decides not to bother with the gate and is pinged for coming in from the side; then we have the final penalty that gifts France the game. Five minutes of rock solid idiocy cost that game every bit as much as Weir's mistake

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday!

Bang on. The last game at Murrayfield springs to mind where every single player on the pitch was rank rotten.

At least in this game our pack stood up, won ball, had parity in the scrum (Domingo was very lucky Pollock didn't ping him for some of the stuff he was up to. At one point his head was in the tighthead slot whilst Cross' head was in the loose position).

Again I'm not blaming the Ref, we made a critical mistake that totally changed the complexion of the game. As a team our pack got a B+, our backs got a B- so overall a we gained a solid B for that game.

You can't hang off one mistake and call it a disaster. I think both teams struggled to "adapt" to "the slapped Pollock's" interperatation of the rules.

I don't even understand this blaming the loss on Weir's mistake - Scotland were leading with 5 minutes to go - all they had to do was stuff the ball up the jumper, trundle around the corner with support to ensure a recycle, and the game was won - but no, we couldn't even manage that.  Somehow we feic up our support, a player is marginally isolated, the support realizes that he's late so decides not to bother with the gate and is pinged for coming in from the side; then we have the final penalty that gifts France the game.  Five minutes of rock solid idiocy cost that game every bit as much as Weir's mistake

Nonsense. Weir's mistake cost us 14 points. That penalty cost us 3.

I'm still at a loss as to why Hogg let the ball run over the line to dot down for a 22 drop out. Surely he should have picked it up and legged it towards the biggest scottish forward he could find. Kicking the ball back to the french was a bit sily really.

To be fair, he was probably puggled....

I agree though - very poor decision.

No point blaming any one player, you win as a team and lose as a team. Every player on the field made a mistake somewhere, unfortunately at SO, every mistake is multiplied times 10. The only question really for Weir here is, will he learn from it and move on. Plenty good players started their international careers with a few howlers. O'Gara and Sexton both looked nothing special when they arrived on the scene.

We have pinned our colours to Weir at the moment and need to stick with him as there is really no alternative. We have no even had another FH on the bench recently. If there was an injury now then Hoggy or Laidlaw would have to come in. Jackson has had his chances and we know he has not got it in him to run a game, maybe he should not even be playing that position.

We are still woefully exposed at 10 and this needs to be sorted out quickly as we are just one injury away from a very deep hole.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Riskysports wrote:We need to be in a position to take away the ability of the ref to influence the out come.

With that French team, if we were half as good as we think we should be, we would be 20 points up

Then it does not matter

You have to take into account Weir error in throwing that pass. There were 14 points in that pass.

Last season, when we beat Italy, I distinctly remember you saying how we only won because Orquera threw that ball to Hogg who sprinted up field to score. Another 14 pointer. That day Italy had us under the cosh until that point, as you rightly pointed out. This time we had France on the ropes up until that point. We also managed to regain the lead, despite the set-back.

I've had far gloomier days as a Scotland fan than Saturday!

Bang on. The last game at Murrayfield springs to mind where every single player on the pitch was rank rotten.

At least in this game our pack stood up, won ball, had parity in the scrum (Domingo was very lucky Pollock didn't ping him for some of the stuff he was up to. At one point his head was in the tighthead slot whilst Cross' head was in the loose position).

Again I'm not blaming the Ref, we made a critical mistake that totally changed the complexion of the game. As a team our pack got a B+, our backs got a B- so overall a we gained a solid B for that game.

You can't hang off one mistake and call it a disaster. I think both teams struggled to "adapt" to "the slapped Pollock's" interperatation of the rules.

I don't even understand this blaming the loss on Weir's mistake - Scotland were leading with 5 minutes to go - all they had to do was stuff the ball up the jumper, trundle around the corner with support to ensure a recycle, and the game was won - but no, we couldn't even manage that.  Somehow we feic up our support, a player is marginally isolated, the support realizes that he's late so decides not to bother with the gate and is pinged for coming in from the side; then we have the final penalty that gifts France the game.  Five minutes of rock solid idiocy cost that game every bit as much as Weir's mistake

Nonsense. Weir's mistake cost us 14 points. That penalty cost us 3.

Drivel, Radge - 14pts is conjecture, 7 is certain; that penalty cost us 3 pts and the game

A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

Weir is a kicking 10. He does not play "heads up" rugby. He doesnt see the overlaps or what "tricks" to use when.

Apparently he only passed the ball 5 times against France

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

DeLuca used to get slated on here, I don't ever remember him butchering a 2 man overlap on the 5 meter line throwing an easily anticipated miss pass to let an opposition winger run the length of the field to score between the posts.

Ford cost us 7 points against Ireland by not hooking the ball and I criticized him for that too.

Weir cost us the game. It cannot be argued otherwise. Yes other players made mistakes but noone made as critical a mistake as Weir did.

He lost us the game by the same measure he won us the game against Italy.

I should also add, we have no real alternatives at 10 other than Weir at the moment, just like we had no alternatives to De Luca. Weir is unfortunatly the best option at the moment. Jackson we know can't really cut it at this level and we are slowly learning the same thing about "Wee Dunky". Even his kicking has been baws and that used to be a strength of his.

I just hope Leonard, Tonks, Horne or Heathcoate can do something about this dire situation.

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

Sadly a 4-on-2 overlap is far from a certain try for Scotland! Weir makes high profile errors (kicking out on the full, wrong decisions, etc) largely because he is in a high profile position - his thinking for the 2-on-1 potential overlap was probably about right (ie he was attempting to draw the defender), his execution (timing, angle of run and pish pass) and slipping were poor, but given fES's thoughts on Lamont's speed, that botched opportunity probably wasn't a guaranteed try either. He is a work in progress, and as you say probably "our best option at 10" until one of the other youngster develop.

tigertattie wrote:Weir is a kicking 10. He does not play "heads up" rugby. He doesnt see the overlaps or what "tricks" to use when.

Apparently he only passed the ball 5 times against France

Presumably that was him following coaching instructions as much as anything tho?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

Sadly a 4-on-2 overlap is far from a certain try for Scotland!  Weir makes high profile errors (kicking out on the full, wrong decisions, etc) largely because he is in a high profile position - his thinking for the 2-on-1 potential overlap was probably about right (ie he was attempting to draw the defender), his execution (timing, angle of run and pish pass) and slipping were poor, but given fES's thoughts on Lamont's speed, that botched opportunity probably wasn't a guaranteed try either. He is a work in progress, and as you say probably "our best option at 10" until one of the other youngster develop.

tigertattie wrote:Weir is a kicking 10. He does not play "heads up" rugby.  He doesnt see the overlaps or what "tricks" to use when.

Apparently he only passed the ball 5 times against France

Presumably that was him following coaching instructions as much as anything tho?

Scott, Dunbar and Evans were outside him at the time. I'd fancy one of them to get over if they got the ball.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

DeLuca used to get slated on here, I don't ever remember him butchering a 2 man overlap on the 5 meter line throwing an easily anticipated miss pass to let an opposition winger run the length of the field to score between the posts.

De Useless got slated pretty much on any rugby forum you care to look at for brainless losses of discipline, which often ended up in a YC for him and for his teammates playing man-down for the next 10 minutes.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ford cost us 7 points against Ireland by not hooking the ball and I criticized him for that too.

 That's nice

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Weir cost us the game. It cannot be argued otherwise. Yes other players made mistakes but noone made as critical a mistake as Weir did.

He lost us the game by the same measure he won us the game against Italy.

 It can, and I have done so - you may not want to read it, but it's there, just above.  He neither lost the game against France nor won it against Italy - in fact, he was poor against Italy, but just happened to score the winning points.  There really is a difference which you need to learn - play as a team, win as a team, lose as a team

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

Sadly a 4-on-2 overlap is far from a certain try for Scotland!  Weir makes high profile errors (kicking out on the full, wrong decisions, etc) largely because he is in a high profile position - his thinking for the 2-on-1 potential overlap was probably about right (ie he was attempting to draw the defender), his execution (timing, angle of run and pish pass) and slipping were poor, but given fES's thoughts on Lamont's speed, that botched opportunity probably wasn't a guaranteed try either.  He is a work in progress, and as you say probably "our best option at 10" until one of the other youngster develop.

tigertattie wrote:Weir is a kicking 10. He does not play "heads up" rugby.  He doesnt see the overlaps or what "tricks" to use when.

Apparently he only passed the ball 5 times against France

Presumably that was him following coaching instructions as much as anything tho?

Scott, Dunbar and Evans were outside him at the time. I'd fancy one of them to get over if they got the ball.

You might do, and I probably would too - but there's no guarantee that any one of them would not have dropped the damn thing, we've seen it too many times before - players let down by lacking in their basic skills

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

DeLuca used to get slated on here, I don't ever remember him butchering a 2 man overlap on the 5 meter line throwing an easily anticipated miss pass to let an opposition winger run the length of the field to score between the posts.

De Useless got slated pretty much on any rugby forum you care to look at for brainless losses of discipline, which often ended up in a YC for him and for his teammates playing man-down for the next 10 minutes.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ford cost us 7 points against Ireland by not hooking the ball and I criticized him for that too.

 That's nice

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Weir cost us the game. It cannot be argued otherwise. Yes other players made mistakes but noone made as critical a mistake as Weir did.

He lost us the game by the same measure he won us the game against Italy.

 It can, and I have done so - you may not want to read it, but it's there, just above.  He neither lost the game against France nor won it against Italy - in fact, he was poor against Italy, but just happened to score the winning points.  There really is a difference which you need to learn - play as a team, win as a team, lose as a team

A team is only as good as it's weakest link, and no matter how you slice it Weir was brutal on Saturday. The pack played well and the backs attacked the ball well when they had possesion.

Weir at best cost us 7 points, at worst he cost us 14. No ammount of bickering will change that.

Seeing an overlap and throwing a suicidal pass like Weir did is basic schoolboy rugby. He screwed up.

Now it could be argued that Brown should have gone for the corners or let Hogg take the kicks that were out of Laidlaws range. Or many of the other niggly calls that happened during the game. All of these are moot points when your flyhalf makes unforced errors like hospital passes, missing touch and booting the ball out on the full. Ford came under harsh criticism because the hooker is under scrutiny for the set piece. Weir at fly half must endure the same criticism especially when he makes mistakes such as the one on Saturday.

We've all done it. Dropped an easy pass. Thrown an easy pass forward or to someones shoe laces.

Sometimes your hands just dont do what you want them to do.

Weir's mistake was worse imo as he took the totally wrong option. As a professional this kind of mistake is going to cost. He should have passed the ball to Matt Scott! Scott could have passed it quickly through the hands to Dunbar to draw Huget then pass to Evans or Hogg for a walk in. Or Scott could have done a miss pass over Dunbar (and Huget) to Hogg or Evans.

Hopefully Weir will have learnt from this and developes a better way of assesing options quickly

tigertattie wrote:We've all done it.  Dropped an easy pass. Thrown an easy pass forward or to someones shoe laces.

Sometimes your hands just dont do what you want them to do.

Weir's mistake was worse imo as he took the totally wrong option. As a professional this kind of mistake is going to cost.  He should have passed the ball to Matt Scott! Scott could have passed it quickly through the hands to Dunbar to draw Huget then pass to Evans or Hogg for a walk in.  Or Scott could have done a miss pass over Dunbar (and Huget) to Hogg or Evans.

Hopefully Weir will have learnt from this and developes a better way of assesing options quickly

Exactly. Even Dan Carter has thrown the odd interception in his time. It happens.

The main thing is that Weir learns from this and becomes a better player. I think he's very promising at 10, and every 22 year old player is still learning the game. Give him time for Glasgow and Scotland, and he'll come good. Having Scott and Hogg come in a play at first receiver will take the pressure off, and the rest of our backs are pretty threatening too.

I agree with Radge on this, Weir was particularly poor in this game and his high profile individuals errors cost us the match. It's not just the missed 3 pointer or the 7 - 14 point intercept, he also hoofed the ball out on the full and made a number of poor decisions throughout the game (and against Italy as well).

I like his attitude and I fully support him being given this run in the side. He has earned this chance and Jackson hasn't done enough this season to keep his place (and Heathcote hasn't played enough rugby and Tonks and Horne are both injured).

I'd like to see him focus on the basics. He isn't and well never be an exciting fly half, but now that we have some exciting outside backs, what I want from Weir is a platform and some stability. He has the potential to be the pragmatic fly half, getting the team playing in the right areas and controlling the game with his boot. That's fine, regardless of whether Horne or Tonks or Heathcote or Leonard ultimately step up, having a solid safe pair of hands as an option is always good to have. Thus far Weir has not been that player, but he's young and I'm pleased that he's had this opportunity. His skillset is pretty limited (his passing range is average and he isn't particularly quick or elusive) but if he can do what he does well and consistently, then he could have a big future.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I agree with Radge on this, Weir was particularly poor in this game and his high profile individuals errors cost us the match. It's not just the missed 3 pointer or the 7 - 14 point intercept, he also hoofed the ball out on the full and made a number of poor decisions throughout the game (and against Italy as well).

I like his attitude and I fully support him being given this run in the side. He has earned this chance and Jackson hasn't done enough this season to keep his place (and Heathcote hasn't played enough rugby and Tonks and Horne are both injured).

I'd like to see him focus on the basics. He isn't and well never be an exciting fly half, but now that we have some exciting outside backs, what I want from Weir is a platform and some stability. He has the potential to be the pragmatic fly half, getting the team playing in the right areas and controlling the game with his boot. That's fine, regardless of whether Horne or Tonks or Heathcote or Leonard ultimately step up, having a solid safe pair of hands as an option is always good to have. Thus far Weir has not been that player, but he's young and I'm pleased that he's had this opportunity. His skillset is pretty limited (his passing range is average and he isn't particularly quick or elusive) but if he can do what he does well and consistently, then he could have a big future.

Agreed. Weir will never be Jonny Sexton. But he might be Stephen Jones and there are far worse things to be.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Nonsense. Weir's mistake cost us 14 points. That penalty cost us 3.

I think Weir's pass is a simple mistake (not excusable mind), on the other hand Swinson's penalties are professionnal faults imo, there is a huge difference and i wish i could get away with the later at my daily job.

Since we're all warbling on about Weir this morning. Worth remembering that had it not been for his man and ball covering tackle following the length of the field French break into our 22. We'd have been 13-0 down and probably out of the game very early on.

Yes the interception, was exceedingly frustrating & galling. But it happened with 35 minutes left on the clock, not as of it was the last play of the game.
The fact that we went into our shells after that and only scored a measly 3 points and couldn't carry out basic pick and drives without being pinged mean collectively as a team they all failed.

VinceWLB wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Nonsense. Weir's mistake cost us 14 points. That penalty cost us 3.

I think Weir's pass is a simple mistake, on the other hand Swinson's penalties are professionnal faults imo, there is a huge difference and i wish i could get away with the later at my daily job.

Jeez that's a massive concession for Weir. What about his missed penalty, or kicking the ball out on the full?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Nonsense. Weir's mistake cost us 14 points. That penalty cost us 3.

I think Weir's pass is a simple mistake, on the other hand Swinson's penalties are professionnal faults imo, there is a huge difference and i wish i could get away with the later at my daily job.

Jeez that's a massive concession for Weir. What about his missed penalty, or kicking the ball out on the full?

Well he made a lot of mistakes but he often does, even in a good day with Glasgow he tends to do these kind of mistakes.
It's a matter of how costly his mistakes are lol.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 4 on 2 overlap should be a near certainty - this isn't the only time we have messed those opportunities up and unfortunately won't be the last.

I agree that we shouldn't chase individual players, but Weir has made some real high profile errors this 6N that he needs to learn from fast.  Let's not forget him messing up the 2 on 1 against Italy when the entire stadium could see that he should have drawn the man and given a simple pass to give Lamont a run in from half way.

If Weir had not kicked that winning drop goal I don't think we would have looked on his performances this 6N very favourably at all.

I still think he's our best option at 10 though!

DeLuca used to get slated on here, I don't ever remember him butchering a 2 man overlap on the 5 meter line throwing an easily anticipated miss pass to let an opposition winger run the length of the field to score between the posts.

De Useless got slated pretty much on any rugby forum you care to look at for brainless losses of discipline, which often ended up in a YC for him and for his teammates playing man-down for the next 10 minutes.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ford cost us 7 points against Ireland by not hooking the ball and I criticized him for that too.

 That's nice

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Weir cost us the game. It cannot be argued otherwise. Yes other players made mistakes but noone made as critical a mistake as Weir did.

He lost us the game by the same measure he won us the game against Italy.

 It can, and I have done so - you may not want to read it, but it's there, just above.  He neither lost the game against France nor won it against Italy - in fact, he was poor against Italy, but just happened to score the winning points.  There really is a difference which you need to learn - play as a team, win as a team, lose as a team

A team is only as good as it's weakest link, and no matter how you slice it Weir was brutal on Saturday. The pack played well and the backs attacked the ball well when they had possesion.

Weir at best cost us 7 points, at worst he cost us 14. No ammount of bickering will change that.

Seeing an overlap and throwing a suicidal pass like Weir did is basic schoolboy rugby. He screwed up.

Now it could be argued that Brown should have gone for the corners or let Hogg take the kicks that were out of Laidlaws range. Or many of the other niggly calls that happened during the game. All of these are moot points when your flyhalf makes unforced errors like hospital passes, missing touch and booting the ball out on the full. Ford came under harsh criticism because the hooker is under scrutiny for the set piece. Weir at fly half must endure the same criticism especially when he makes mistakes such as the one on Saturday.

This is the bit I can not understand - how anyone can say our team played well. Any part of it - at all

We held our own in the scrum and line out - yes - but this is a French pack that has been destroyed in several games - their scrum is rubbish this year - that is not playing well - that is playing ok - for a while - at best

The backs had one scoring chance taken - one hail mary 50/50 score and one overlap - that is all for 80 mins - the rest of the time we battered and battered and got no-where between the 10 m lines - as usual

I am really sorry, but we played poorly against a terrible team - and I get a little fed up with us deluding ourself otherwise

15 mins of ok rugby in 4 games - that is it