Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[mystiroakey]

First topic message reminder :

Oh you are SAF? or a Glazier?

[Duty281]

Is it something to do with the fact, perhaps, that you have a 60,000 capacity stadium - the second highest for club football in England?

Players like Mertesacker, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Oxlade, Ozil, and Giroud?

The fact that Arsenal have won the joint second highest amount of English titles in the Premier League era? And the consecutive number of years Arsenal are in the Champions League?

Doesn't that make Arsenal an elite club? If we're using economic might to determine the status of a club, then QPR are doing pretty well.

The question is what is making us an elite club when we spend so little money and have to recruit teenagers from the championship (ramsey, walcott)?

All of the above.

And you make it sound like Arsenal don't have a pot to p!ss in. Was Ozil recruited from the Championship? Must have missed that!

And how many billionaires have a share in Arsenal football club?

Ozil was only recruited this season and the season is not over so we can't discuss this season (especially as we should win the fa cup anyway). Also ozil money is only available now because the stadium debt is nearly all gone.


Also all of the above does not apply, how does having a 60,000 seat stadium keep us as a big team? bigger stadiums = more money but we still spent less than stoke due to debt from the stadium needing to be paid off.

Billionaire owner means nothing when he is not willing to spend his money so an irrelevant point.

How about the elite quality of players Arsenal have at their disposal?
Arsene Wenger as manager - once magnificent and still considerable.

And we can't discuss this season, you say? OK, how about Giroud (£13 million), Podolski (£11 million), Cazorla (£15 million) - all signed in the summer of 2012. Before that, Oxlade (£12.5 million), Arteta (£10 million), Mertesacker (£8million) - will that suffice?

Ox was a championship player. And we had to sell 'better' players to buy those players hence why I used the word net spend. We had to sell fabregas, nasri, toure, clichy, adebayor, van persie, song etc etc

I am glad you finally spoke of wenger as the main reason, which therefore undermines your previous posts that wenger is a failure if you are agreeing now that wenger is the reason arsenal are still an elite club.

But do the likes of Stoke have the chance to sell players such as Fabregas/RVP etc.

No. Why? Because they're not an elite club - Arsenal are.

And Wenger is not the main reason, far from it, for Arsenal being an elite club, and I never said he was. He does carry some weight though, one imagines, for what he's done in the past and that would probably still hold some sway when it comes to transfers.

[Duty281]

Come on Duty you know there is one overriding major reason why Arsnel are still a top 10 team in the world.

You know the one major reason why we can compete with Chelsea and City and United who have spent hundreds of millions of pounds more than us on transfers.

The reason why we are a major club is because of Wenger and his team. Wenger manages to find talent from the championship and from the french league and our youth team and turn their skills into a major force in europe.

Wenger knows exactly what tactics are needed to keep us as an elite level team and keep us challenging with the big boys who spend hundreds of millions of pounds on expensive players.

Wenger is the reason we are still an elite club.

So you are an elite club?

In that case, don't you agree that elite clubs, certainly ones who are supposedly top ten in the world, should have their success defined by trophies?

Of couse not, becuse we are competing with even better elite teams such as madrid, or barcelona, or bayern or united or city or chelsea for trophies or teams that spend more money than us eg tottenham, liverpool, everton, villa, stoke, qpr etc etc etc

Success is not defined purely by trophies.

You said Arsenal were top ten in the world. If they're that good (not sure how in truth), wouldn't they be expecting to win trophies and such like?

[westisbest]

Good job we did'nt make it £50 

Booked my tickets today for Villa Saints easter saturday.

Doing the double over them will be good enough.

He's coming with us, went to the same fixture last season, christ he did'nt shut up all night.

[hampo17]

Is it something to do with the fact, perhaps, that you have a 60,000 capacity stadium - the second highest for club football in England?

Players like Mertesacker, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Oxlade, Ozil, and Giroud?

The fact that Arsenal have won the joint second highest amount of English titles in the Premier League era? And the consecutive number of years Arsenal are in the Champions League?

Doesn't that make Arsenal an elite club? If we're using economic might to determine the status of a club, then QPR are doing pretty well.

The question is what is making us an elite club when we spend so little money and have to recruit teenagers from the championship (ramsey, walcott)?

All of the above.

And you make it sound like Arsenal don't have a pot to p!ss in. Was Ozil recruited from the Championship? Must have missed that!

And how many billionaires have a share in Arsenal football club?

Ozil was only recruited this season and the season is not over so we can't discuss this season (especially as we should win the fa cup anyway). Also ozil money is only available now because the stadium debt is nearly all gone.


Also all of the above does not apply, how does having a 60,000 seat stadium keep us as a big team? bigger stadiums = more money but we still spent less than stoke due to debt from the stadium needing to be paid off.

Billionaire owner means nothing when he is not willing to spend his money so an irrelevant point.

How about the elite quality of players Arsenal have at their disposal?
Arsene Wenger as manager - once magnificent and still considerable.

And we can't discuss this season, you say? OK, how about Giroud (£13 million), Podolski (£11 million), Cazorla (£15 million) - all signed in the summer of 2012. Before that, Oxlade (£12.5 million), Arteta (£10 million), Mertesacker (£8million) - will that suffice?

Ox was a championship player. And we had to sell 'better' players to buy those players hence why I used the word net spend. We had to sell fabregas, nasri, toure, clichy, adebayor, van persie, song etc etc

I am glad you finally spoke of wenger as the main reason, which therefore undermines your previous posts that wenger is a failure if you are agreeing now that wenger is the reason arsenal are still an elite club.

You didn't have to sell those players, you chose to in most cases. You're making it sound as if finances are that tight that those transfers were forced which just isn't true.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Is it something to do with the fact, perhaps, that you have a 60,000 capacity stadium - the second highest for club football in England?

Players like Mertesacker, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Oxlade, Ozil, and Giroud?

The fact that Arsenal have won the joint second highest amount of English titles in the Premier League era? And the consecutive number of years Arsenal are in the Champions League?

Doesn't that make Arsenal an elite club? If we're using economic might to determine the status of a club, then QPR are doing pretty well.

The question is what is making us an elite club when we spend so little money and have to recruit teenagers from the championship (ramsey, walcott)?

All of the above.

And you make it sound like Arsenal don't have a pot to p!ss in. Was Ozil recruited from the Championship? Must have missed that!

And how many billionaires have a share in Arsenal football club?

Ozil was only recruited this season and the season is not over so we can't discuss this season (especially as we should win the fa cup anyway). Also ozil money is only available now because the stadium debt is nearly all gone.


Also all of the above does not apply, how does having a 60,000 seat stadium keep us as a big team? bigger stadiums = more money but we still spent less than stoke due to debt from the stadium needing to be paid off.

Billionaire owner means nothing when he is not willing to spend his money so an irrelevant point.

How about the elite quality of players Arsenal have at their disposal?
Arsene Wenger as manager - once magnificent and still considerable.

And we can't discuss this season, you say? OK, how about Giroud (£13 million), Podolski (£11 million), Cazorla (£15 million) - all signed in the summer of 2012. Before that, Oxlade (£12.5 million), Arteta (£10 million), Mertesacker (£8million) - will that suffice?

Ox was a championship player. And we had to sell 'better' players to buy those players hence why I used the word net spend. We had to sell fabregas, nasri, toure, clichy, adebayor, van persie, song etc etc

I am glad you finally spoke of wenger as the main reason, which therefore undermines your previous posts that wenger is a failure if you are agreeing now that wenger is the reason arsenal are still an elite club.

But do the likes of Stoke have the chance to sell players such as Fabregas/RVP etc.

No. Why? Because they're not an elite club - Arsenal are.

And Wenger is not the main reason, far from it, for Arsenal being an elite club, and I never said he was. He does carry some weight though, one imagines, for what he's done in the past and that would probably still hold some sway when it comes to transfers.

fabregas was just a 16 year old youth player when we bought him, Van Persie was also an unknown player from the dutch league when we bought him, just like ox was an unknown championship player the same as walcott and ramsey, stoke could very well have bought them but arsenal's scouts are better

You still haven't said what it is that makes us an elite club, you hinted at it then retracted your statement when you knew it would contradict your previous wum by saying wenger was a failure.

Wenger is the sole reason we are an elite club. He is the one who buys these unknown players, helps to grow them and then uses them to make us a top 10 team in the world.

[Ent]

None of Ramsey, Walcott or oxlaide chamberlain were unknown - none of them are world class and none of them have helped you to trophies.

Fabregas was poached from Barca's youth system and they were apoplectic, hardly unknown to the world elite...

[Champagne_Socialist]

None of Ramsey, Walcott or oxlaide chamberlain were unknown - none of them are world class and none of them have helped you to trophies.

Fabregas was poached from Barca's youth system and they were apoplectic, hardly unknown to the world elite...

I have heard of Mark beavers, doesn't make him 'unknown'.

[socal1976]

If Wenger leaves next year what will all of you guys have to talk about? The guy poached Fabregas for next to nothing, got years of quality play out of him and sold him back to Barca for 30 million that should show you he knows what he is doing. The majority of his signings, and there have been ones that haven't panned out, the majority of his signings have panned out. Even a lot of the players he let go opened the door for better players ie Nasri and Clichy. Why not get money for a malcontent and bring in a better younger player.

[Duty281]

Is it something to do with the fact, perhaps, that you have a 60,000 capacity stadium - the second highest for club football in England?

Players like Mertesacker, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Oxlade, Ozil, and Giroud?

The fact that Arsenal have won the joint second highest amount of English titles in the Premier League era? And the consecutive number of years Arsenal are in the Champions League?

Doesn't that make Arsenal an elite club? If we're using economic might to determine the status of a club, then QPR are doing pretty well.

The question is what is making us an elite club when we spend so little money and have to recruit teenagers from the championship (ramsey, walcott)?

All of the above.

And you make it sound like Arsenal don't have a pot to p!ss in. Was Ozil recruited from the Championship? Must have missed that!

And how many billionaires have a share in Arsenal football club?

Ozil was only recruited this season and the season is not over so we can't discuss this season (especially as we should win the fa cup anyway). Also ozil money is only available now because the stadium debt is nearly all gone.


Also all of the above does not apply, how does having a 60,000 seat stadium keep us as a big team? bigger stadiums = more money but we still spent less than stoke due to debt from the stadium needing to be paid off.

Billionaire owner means nothing when he is not willing to spend his money so an irrelevant point.

How about the elite quality of players Arsenal have at their disposal?
Arsene Wenger as manager - once magnificent and still considerable.

And we can't discuss this season, you say? OK, how about Giroud (£13 million), Podolski (£11 million), Cazorla (£15 million) - all signed in the summer of 2012. Before that, Oxlade (£12.5 million), Arteta (£10 million), Mertesacker (£8million) - will that suffice?

Ox was a championship player. And we had to sell 'better' players to buy those players hence why I used the word net spend. We had to sell fabregas, nasri, toure, clichy, adebayor, van persie, song etc etc

I am glad you finally spoke of wenger as the main reason, which therefore undermines your previous posts that wenger is a failure if you are agreeing now that wenger is the reason arsenal are still an elite club.

But do the likes of Stoke have the chance to sell players such as Fabregas/RVP etc.

No. Why? Because they're not an elite club - Arsenal are.

And Wenger is not the main reason, far from it, for Arsenal being an elite club, and I never said he was. He does carry some weight though, one imagines, for what he's done in the past and that would probably still hold some sway when it comes to transfers.

fabregas was just a 16 year old youth player when we bought him, Van Persie was also an unknown player from the dutch league when we bought him, just like ox was an unknown championship player the same as walcott and ramsey, stoke could very well have bought them but arsenal's scouts are better

You still haven't said what it is that makes us an elite club, you hinted at it then retracted your statement when you knew it would contradict your previous wum by saying wenger was a failure.

Wenger is the sole reason we are an elite club. He is the one who buys these unknown players, helps to grow them and then uses them to make us a top 10 team in the world.

I've said what makes you an elite club: Quality of players, strong financial footing, and regular Champions League football. I'm pretty sure a worldwide fanbase and a top-level scouting organisation, the latter greatly helped by Arsenal's strong monetary position, I would imagine, is also of great benefit.

And Wenger? Probably good enough for the transfer side of things, despite his failings on the pitch for the last few years. I think quite a few players, certainly the youngsters, would still consider it a massive honour to have him as their leader.

Top ten in the world, though? Just no.

[compelling and rich]

poor little arsenal having to look around the championship for bargain bucket players like walcott and ox. remind me again how much they cost between them? 27 million?

[Champagne_Socialist]

Is it something to do with the fact, perhaps, that you have a 60,000 capacity stadium - the second highest for club football in England?

Players like Mertesacker, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Oxlade, Ozil, and Giroud?

The fact that Arsenal have won the joint second highest amount of English titles in the Premier League era? And the consecutive number of years Arsenal are in the Champions League?

Doesn't that make Arsenal an elite club? If we're using economic might to determine the status of a club, then QPR are doing pretty well.

The question is what is making us an elite club when we spend so little money and have to recruit teenagers from the championship (ramsey, walcott)?

All of the above.

And you make it sound like Arsenal don't have a pot to p!ss in. Was Ozil recruited from the Championship? Must have missed that!

And how many billionaires have a share in Arsenal football club?

Ozil was only recruited this season and the season is not over so we can't discuss this season (especially as we should win the fa cup anyway). Also ozil money is only available now because the stadium debt is nearly all gone.


Also all of the above does not apply, how does having a 60,000 seat stadium keep us as a big team? bigger stadiums = more money but we still spent less than stoke due to debt from the stadium needing to be paid off.

Billionaire owner means nothing when he is not willing to spend his money so an irrelevant point.

How about the elite quality of players Arsenal have at their disposal?
Arsene Wenger as manager - once magnificent and still considerable.

And we can't discuss this season, you say? OK, how about Giroud (£13 million), Podolski (£11 million), Cazorla (£15 million) - all signed in the summer of 2012. Before that, Oxlade (£12.5 million), Arteta (£10 million), Mertesacker (£8million) - will that suffice?

Ox was a championship player. And we had to sell 'better' players to buy those players hence why I used the word net spend. We had to sell fabregas, nasri, toure, clichy, adebayor, van persie, song etc etc

I am glad you finally spoke of wenger as the main reason, which therefore undermines your previous posts that wenger is a failure if you are agreeing now that wenger is the reason arsenal are still an elite club.

But do the likes of Stoke have the chance to sell players such as Fabregas/RVP etc.

No. Why? Because they're not an elite club - Arsenal are.

And Wenger is not the main reason, far from it, for Arsenal being an elite club, and I never said he was. He does carry some weight though, one imagines, for what he's done in the past and that would probably still hold some sway when it comes to transfers.

fabregas was just a 16 year old youth player when we bought him, Van Persie was also an unknown player from the dutch league when we bought him, just like ox was an unknown championship player the same as walcott and ramsey, stoke could very well have bought them but arsenal's scouts are better

You still haven't said what it is that makes us an elite club, you hinted at it then retracted your statement when you knew it would contradict your previous wum by saying wenger was a failure.

Wenger is the sole reason we are an elite club. He is the one who buys these unknown players, helps to grow them and then uses them to make us a top 10 team in the world.

I've said what makes you an elite club: Quality of players, strong financial footing, and regular Champions League football. I'm pretty sure a worldwide fanbase and a top-level scouting organisation, the latter greatly helped by Arsenal's strong monetary position, I would imagine.

And Wenger? Probably good enough for the transfer side of things, despite his failings on the pitch for the last few years. I think quite a few players, certainly the youngsters, would still consider it a massive honour to have him as their leader.

Top ten in the world, though? Just no.

Quality of players= Wenger is the one who signs the players and develops them so credit to wenger
Champions league football= Wenger is the manager getting us champions league football so credit to wenger
top leve scouting= wenger is the one who chooses the scouts so credit to wenger

So basically you have just said wenger is the reason we are an elite cub.

[Guest]

poor little arsenal having to look around the championship for bargain bucket players like walcott and ox. remind me again how much they cost between them? 27 million?

Wonder if they'll have a little piece about it for Sport Relief

"For just £15million, you could help Arsenal finally achieve their dreams. Please....give what you can...Wenger's future depends on it (although it doesn't)"

[Duty281]

Well by your rather flimsy definition, C_S, I have.

I don't think that quite holds true though, unfortunately.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Well by your rather flimsy definition, C_S, I have.

I don't think that quite holds true though, unfortunately.

Yeh you are right, It is steve bruce who is signing the players for Arsenal and it is jose mourinho who is guiding Arsenal to the knock outs in the champions legue every year.

[Duty281]

Does Wenger do everything at Arsenal, then? Mow the lawn, do the accounts, be the mascot, be the manager, play in all eleven positions simultaneously thusly confounding science, before bringing the champers to the victory parade?

Whilst driving the open-top bus, naturally.

I would give greater credit for the on-the-field actions to the players, rather than Wenger, and greater appreciation for the scouting to the scouts, rather than Wenger.

[socal1976]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Does Wenger do everything at Arsenal, then? Mow the lawn, do the accounts, be the mascot, be the manager, play in all eleven positions simultaneously thusly confounding science, before bringing the champers to the victory parade?

Whilst driving the open-top bus, naturally.

I would give greater credit for the on-the-field actions to the players, rather than Wenger, and greater appreciation for the scouting to the scouts, rather than Wenger.

Clutching at straws are we duty.... Glad you admitted that wenger is the reason Arsenal are an elite club, even if you can'ts ee you admitted it.

I've said what makes you an elite club: Quality of players, strong financial footing, and regular Champions League football. I'm pretty sure a worldwide fanbase and a top-level scouting organisation, the latter greatly helped by Arsenal's strong monetary position, I would imagine.

And Wenger? Probably good enough for the transfer side of things, despite his failings on the pitch for the last few years. I think quite a few players, certainly the youngsters, would still consider it a massive honour to have him as their leader.

Top ten in the world, though? Just no.

Quality of players= Wenger is the one who signs the players and develops them so credit to wenger
Champions league football= Wenger is the manager getting us champions league football so credit to wenger
top leve scouting= wenger is the one who chooses the scouts so credit to wenger

So basically you have just said wenger is the reason we are an elite cub.

[Champagne_Socialist]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Duty's views are all over the place, labelling wenger a failure but then saying Arsenal are an elite club because of our transfers and our champions league qualifications and our strong financial position which is basically all down to Wenger's great work.

[CFCNick]

Arsenal are an elite club. 75% of the league finishes below you every season FFS!!!

The fact that a club as big as Arsenal with Champions League football every season for nearly two decades hasn't won a damned thing for 9 years is a failure.

Finishing 4th for an extended period without winning a trophy is success for teams like Spurs, Everton, Villa and Newcastle.

Arsenal are a failing elite club.

[Duty281]

Right let's see here.

Wenger is a failure post-2005. Certainly before that time he was a success (I've never said any different), afterwards he has...wait for it...failed.

Nine years of failure.

Is he the reason that Arsenal are an elite club? Well certainly in the early part of his reign he played a big hand, but now you get the sense that any success Arsenal may well gain is in spite of Wenger, not because of him. So let's conclude with..no. Doesn't mean he's an absolute failure though; there is some good to him.

And I struggle to see how a team that hasn't made it to the quarter-finals of the Champions League for around four years can be labelled as "top ten in the world". Bit of a stretch.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Right let's see here.

Wenger is a failure post-2005. Certainly before that time he was a success (I've never said any different), afterwards he has...wait for it...failed.

Nine years of failure.

Is he the reason that Arsenal are an elite club? Well certainly in the early part of his reign he played a big hand, but now you get the sense that any success Arsenal may well gain is in spite of Wenger, not because of him. So let's conclude with..no. Doesn't mean he's an absolute failure though; there is some good to him.

And I struggle to see how a team that hasn't made it to the quarter-finals of the Champions League for around four years can be labelled as "top ten in the world". Bit of a stretch.

You said Arsena was an elite club, you said the reason Arsenal are an elite club is because of our transfers, our current players, our ability to always get champions league football and our strong financial position. Al of those points you listed are because of wenger's work. Therefore you are saying Arsenal are an elite club because of wenger's work, hardly the work of a failure.

I've said what makes you an elite club: Quality of players, strong financial footing, and regular Champions League football. I'm pretty sure a worldwide fanbase and a top-level scouting organisation, the latter greatly helped by Arsenal's strong monetary position, I would imagine.

And Wenger? Probably good enough for the transfer side of things, despite his failings on the pitch for the last few years. I think quite a few players, certainly the youngsters, would still consider it a massive honour to have him as their leader.

Top ten in the world, though? Just no.

Quality of players= Wenger is the one who signs the players and develops them so credit to wenger
Champions league football= Wenger is the manager getting us champions league football so credit to wenger
top leve scouting= wenger is the one who chooses the scouts so credit to wenger

So basically you have just said wenger is the reason we are an elite cub.

[compelling and rich]

arsenal are a elite club but have been underachieving in not winning a trophy for 9 years, whats so difficult about this?

if they werent a elite club nobody would be on about a lack of trophies, dont hear many newcastle and villa fans complaining about no trophies

[Guest]

arsenal are a elite club but have been underachieving in not winning a trophy for 9 years, whats so difficult about this?

if they werent a elite club nobody would be on about a lack of trophies, dont hear many newcastle and villa fans complaining about no trophies

You do, but it's generally fuelled by alcohol and later tempered with commonsense...but I fully understand what you mean. Shame some people can't!

[Duty281]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger*. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

* In other words, Arsenal are currently an elite club but this is not down to Wenger. I haven't been to bed for two days..does this read right?

[Guest]

You could, you just don't want to!

[socal1976]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

Are you suffering from multiple personality disorder? Some other version of Duty just said Arsenal are an elite club. I never said our success doesn't depend on winning trophies. But as I said on the other thread if Arsenal failed to make it to CL and won lets say the league cup I don't find that particularly to be a great trade. Wenger will probably be gone if he doesn't get us the FA cup. Not because he will be forced out but because there will be giant shiitstorm of controversy and as I said I think the club would be poorer for it. I don't think he wants to re up unless the club as a whole is behind him. But hey, if you think it is all Wenger's fault than no one can convince you.

[Duty281]

Where have I said it's all Wenger's fault?
Where have I said Arsenal aren't an elite club?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

How do we define elite? How many elite clubs are there? Cos Arsenal are fifth in that sense in the Premier League.

[Ent]

If Wenger leaves next year what will all of you guys have to talk about? The guy poached Fabregas for next to nothing, got years of quality play out of him and sold him back to Barca for 30 million that should show you he knows what he is doing. The majority of his signings, and there have been ones that haven't panned out, the majority of his signings have panned out. Even a lot of the players he let go opened the door for better players ie Nasri and Clichy. Why not get money for a malcontent and bring in a better younger player.

The idea is to win things! Not have the best balance sheet, making money on a young player or a malcontent without them winning you anything isn't success - it's failure.

I don't particularly rate the fact we made £8million on Pique, probably spent a decent percentage of that on compensation and wages for him only for him to go and play every week for one of the best club sides of all time.

[socal1976]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger-duty

Ok this is what duty of 45 minutes had to say can you tell me if duty of right now still agrees with the statement.

[Duty281]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Bigger - Manchester United, Liverpool, AC Milan
Better - Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund/Napoli.

There we go. The first three have better history and are a "bigger" club in that respect. The other seven are just...better.

[socal1976]

Ent, so poaching fab from barca wasn't a great signing. Short of hijacking fab Arsene did whatever he could to keep him. But Cesc was a Catalan and barca where the best side in the world and he was desperate to go. Why did you guys sell Ronaldo then, you sold the current best player in the world. In the transfer market you buy and sell and if the player is desperate to go he eventually can

[Duty281]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger-duty

Ok this is what duty of 45 minutes had to say can you tell me if duty of right now still agrees with the statement.

Hmmm. Let's try:

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are an elite club but not because of Arsene Wenger.

[socal1976]

Napoli where relegated a few years ago. Ac Milan we would kick their arse right now how are they doing in league. Liverpool, a huge historic side whose own fans do threads where they can fail as badly as arsenal and qualify the champions league. Inter same thing as AC they haven't been good since the last couple of years. If your measuring history or recent success or fan base or whatever we actually fair pretty damn well

[Ent]

Ent, so poaching fab from barca wasn't a great signing. Short of hijacking fab Arsene did whatever he could to keep him. But Cesc was a Catalan and barca where the best side in the world and he was desperate to go. Why did you guys sell Ronaldo then, you sold the current best player in the world. In the transfer market you buy and sell and if the player is desperate to go he eventually can

I shouldn't have to point out the difference but I will:

In 6 years Ronaldo at United won: 1 CL, 1 club world cup, 3 leagues, 1 FA cup, 2 league cups, 1 community shield.

In 8 years at Arsenal Fabregas won 1 FA cup and 1 community shield.

You don't want to sell your best players, sometimes you have to but you make a point of getting the best out of them first i.e. trophies - not profits.

[CFCNick]

Ent, so poaching fab from barca wasn't a great signing. Short of hijacking fab Arsene did whatever he could to keep him. But Cesc was a Catalan and barca where the best side in the world and he was desperate to go. Why did you guys sell Ronaldo then, you sold the current best player in the world. In the transfer market you buy and sell and if the player is desperate to go he eventually can

United would never ever get even £50m for Ronaldo if they turned down the £80m. The transfer market, like all things in football, is never black and white. If you get presented with the chance to sell at a premium you should probably sell because you won't get the same offer again.

We sold Hasselbaink to Boro when he was our best striker for a small amount because it's better than nothing the next summer. Although we did replace him with Drogba.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To be fair to Spurs, who could have predicted that Sherwood would be a bit rubbish? Oh right, yeah. Everyone. Everyone in the entire world

[socal1976]

Ent, so poaching fab from barca wasn't a great signing. Short of hijacking fab Arsene did whatever he could to keep him. But Cesc was a Catalan and barca where the best side in the world and he was desperate to go. Why did you guys sell Ronaldo then, you sold the current best player in the world. In the transfer market you buy and sell and if the player is desperate to go he eventually can

I shouldn't have to point out the difference but I will:

In 6 years Ronaldo at United won: 1 CL, 1 club world cup, 3 leagues, 1 FA cup, 2 league cups, 1 community shield.

In 8 years at Arsenal Fabregas won 1 FA cup and 1 community shield.

You don't want to sell your best players, sometimes you have to but you make a point of getting the best out of them first i.e. trophies - not profits.

We won the FA cup with Fab and reached a European final, not chopped liver. The fact is that I don't want to sell our best players either but certain financial constraints did exist. And some of the players were overvalued and not worth the money they wanted (ie Song or Clichy). It was a master stroke selling Song to Barca a couple of years ago for 20 something million if my memory serves me right. If a player is overvalued and someone is willing to pay you well beyond what is fair value for him, I say go ahead and do it. Like I said, similar to Ronaldo Arsene did everything short of kidnapping to keep the kid, Barca was after him for well over 2 years and their players were putting Barca shirts on him during the world cup celebration. In short, you guys sold the best player in the world (or second best) because you had to, same reason we sold Cesc. If a player desperately wants out it is hard to keep him.

[socal1976]

To be fair to Spurs, who could have predicted that Sherwood would be a bit rubbish? Oh right, yeah. Everyone. Everyone in the entire world

Still think he is better than AVB. That might not being saying much.

[socal1976]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Bigger - Manchester United, Liverpool, AC Milan
Better - Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund/Napoli.

There we go. The first three have better history and are a "bigger" club in that respect. The other seven are just...better.

Is that why Napoli got knocked of our CL group. Dortmund is nowhere near the team they were earlier in the year when we played in CL in terms of injuries and we split with them. If you really want to measure we have to look at criteria. If it is "better" I disagree certainly with regards to Dortmund and Napoli as of right now or throughout the season. Dortmund is behind Schalke and Leverkusen and neither one of those teams are all that mighty this year. Here are the teams if I am ranking the "better" aspect

1. Bayern
2. real
3. Barca
4. Chelsea
5. PSG
6. Juventus
7. Man City
8. Atleti
9. Arsenal

So Arsenal are in the top 10, even if you would rate Dortmund who is on the skids right now as being better, which I don't. Liverpool would have a fair shout right now at coming in ahead of us. That would still put us in the top 10 in terms of quality.

[Champagne_Socialist]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger*. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

* In other words, Arsenal are currently an elite club but this is not down to Wenger. I haven't been to bed for two days..does this read right?

You said arsenal are an elite club because of our transfers, always getting to cl knockouts nd financial stability. All of that is because of Wenger so wenger is in your words the reaason we are an elite club.

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