Wales tour of SA

First topic message reminder :

Halfpenny is out and recent news (unknown to me) is stating that Warburton will now also miss out due to a dislocated shoulder. It doesn't look good for us going to SA without these two and with our recent away form being so bad. Personally I think it would be a good idea if we had a midweek game before the first test against a SA Provincial team, using the majority of our first team.

Who would you like to see on the plane?

Since when hes named in squad

whocares wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lydiate has played 7 for us against Australia in the AIs few seasons back and he plays left and right with Racing rather than open and blind as we do so him or Taulupe could do a job there but you would lose Lydiates defensive capabilities.

Lydiate caught an injury and will be off all summer.

you seem sure whats your source, i heard a tweak nothing more

Scratch wrote:

whocares wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lydiate has played 7 for us against Australia in the AIs few seasons back and he plays left and right with Racing rather than open and blind as we do so him or Taulupe could do a job there but you would lose Lydiates defensive capabilities.

Lydiate caught an injury and will be off all summer.

you seem sure whats your source, i heard a tweak nothing more

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Lydiate-forfait-pour-la-tournee/464712

muscular tear it would seem...

Just noticed the scheduling of this tour…..so the first game is clearly not a warm up match but a softening up match….typical SA tactics. What plank at the WRU agreed to this?

It means that Gats can barely afford to play his first team as the recovery will be so short as to be impossible. Pointless

FFS

He could risk playing the majority of the first team in the Kings fixture, Aus have done so in the past...

He might as well play the 1st team, they'll need a game seeing as most have been sat on their butts for the business end of the season.

Lydiate is fit to tour now apparently. If its the drubbing I expect then he should have stayed on the sick

Scrumpy wrote:He might as well play the 1st team, they'll need a game seeing as most have been sat on their butts for the business end of the season.

No, they'll have played in the probs/poss trial, you know, the one you said absolutely categorically wasn't going to happen!! So knowledgeable about Wales!!   

Not going to happen for the English based players!

I think Gatland and the WRU have burnt their bridges on that one.  

Scrumpy wrote:Not going to happen for the English based players!

I think Gatland and the WRU have burnt their bridges on that one.  

Another one of your definitive statements…are you categorically absolutely sure about this one, if so, I expect everyone to play whose season is over

Scrumpy wrote:Not going to happen for the English based players!

I think Gatland and the WRU have burnt their bridges on that one.  

Why burnt bridges or anymore that they were before?

North is the only one with a release clause for ALL Wales training and games all the others plus the ones in France didn't necessarily get released anyway outside the IRB windows.

Here is SA's squad: http://mobi.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/140519/Brussow_joins_Schalk_in_extended_squad

No De Villiers….the tour is ours!!

Does  anyone else think it's time to bring in Byrne and Brew. I just read Amos is out of the tour now; that wasn't advertised very much. We are seriously low on back 3 now it's getting stupid.

Byrne, yes, Brew, no

Whats the story with eli walker these days

Byrne should never have been out of the squad. If Brew gets back to his Rabo form next season, then I think it would be harsh for Gatland to ignore him (though not unexpected).

I think Byrne must have upset someone as he was in great from for Clermont yet got ignored whilst other exiles got picked, Brew has never been given a fair crack much like Biggar hadn't been until past few seasons.

I agree ref Byrne, though Half well and truly replaced him and therefore with hook in the wings as super utility sub there seems little need for Byrne….until now that is as i would like to see Williams on the wing more to pressure Cuthbert

Having Williams, Byrne and Halfpenny fighting for the XV shirt then Williams and Halfpenny putting pressure on both North and Cuthbert could only be a good thing.

I suspect Wales will see a new look Springbok backline.

Jean de Villiers is out, Lambie is out, Jaque Fourie is out.

Biltong wrote:I suspect Wales will see a new look Springbok backline.

Jean de Villiers is out, Lambie is out, Jaque Fourie is out.

what do you expect to see biltong, is francois steyn fit?

Steyn is fit yes, not playing badly either. I would think Meyer will play Steyn at 10, Serfontein at 12 and Engelbrecht at 13.

There is a new guy, De Allende who is playing really good rugby that might come into the mix

Steyns form has been excellent and I had doubts about his abilities at 10 but his Sharks form has been great, the try he set up vs the Crusaders top notch. Always a drop goal threat as well. Already he has more to his bow than his namesake in the position had.

There's always been something about him that gets me, whether its that he goes missing or loses interest for periods. He just seems like he's there to help the team out but somehow not actually a part of it.

I think Jake White knows how to get the best out of him, he went on the walk about for the period he played in France, even last year he looked unhappy, always frowning and not looking like he was enjoying himself.

I still think he is too slow for a 10, but with Lambie out and Goosen in poor form, there isn't much stock, Morne Steyn has not been able to start regularly for Stade Francais and Boshoff is too inexperienced.

yeah I think thats it Biltong. In that form he's really good to watch. He's got real intuition and a feel for the game where Morne is very structured and methodical. Could be just what the Boks need this year...one to watch I reckon.

It seems Frans Steyn have a knee injury and might not play in the June tests, which means Meyer is planning to play Serfontein and De Allende in the midfield, which makes me believe Morne Steyn is going to play 10

I think the depth in the SH (NZ and SA especially) is still way superior to most of the NH and whilst it maybe something for Wales to exploit if Roberts and JD and fully fit and firing it unfortunately won't make huge difference to overall result.

Adriaan Strauss gets 3 week ban, misses test series.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the depth in the SH (NZ and SA especially) is still way superior to most of the NH and whilst it maybe something for Wales to exploit if Roberts and JD and fully fit and firing it unfortunately won't make huge difference to overall result.

Why's that then??

To be fair, we couldn't even beat possibly the worst Australian side of the decade (due to all the injuries they had). South Africa are a different beast, so its not unrealistic to expect us to lose to them even if a few players are missing.

IronMike wrote:To be fair, we couldn't even beat possibly the worst Australian side of the decade (due to all the injuries they had). South Africa are a different beast, so its not unrealistic to expect us to lose to them even if a few players are missing.

geez...when you put it like that...especially when SA are on a distinct upward curve, the only two losses last year quite tumultuous clashes.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the depth in the SH (NZ and SA especially) is still way superior to most of the NH and whilst it maybe something for Wales to exploit if Roberts and JD and fully fit and firing it unfortunately won't make huge difference to overall result.

Why's that then??

RW,

Cos I for one am not afraid to admit we not in the same league as them, it will be a tremendously hard tour and would have been if we had a full strength squad going there.

As much as I hate the glorious losers and great game but still lose tag we have had against the SH for far to long now I think this tour is about seeing what else is in the tank so to speak in terms of youngsters.

For me the AIs will be a better indication of where we are in terms of our WC prep, that said again depends on injuries but if this tour gives a bit more exposure to the likes of Li Williams and lets say Cory Allen and Dan Baker then thats fine by me.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the depth in the SH (NZ and SA especially) is still way superior to most of the NH and whilst it maybe something for Wales to exploit if Roberts and JD and fully fit and firing it unfortunately won't make huge difference to overall result.

Why's that then??

RW,

Cos I for one am not afraid to admit we not in the same league as them, it will be a tremendously hard tour and would have been if we had a full strength squad going there.

As much as I hate the glorious losers and great game but still lose tag we have had against the SH for far to long now I think this tour is about seeing what else is in the tank so to speak in terms of youngsters.

For me the AIs will be a better indication of where we are in terms of our WC prep, that said again depends on injuries but if this tour gives a bit more exposure to the likes of Li Williams and lets say Cory Allen and Dan Baker then thats fine by me.

Agree to some extent Bedford…but i want to see some dog from the boys, SA will be out to smash them up front and unless Wales find their aggressive side we will get pulped. E.g. Mike Philipps, perfect for this environment and should start, even if its at 6!

Scratch,

Don't get me wrong I want and expect any player who is named in the match day 23 to play like their life depended on it and tackle until the can't tackle anymore.

If they don't then it could be a very long couple of weeks.

Scratch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the depth in the SH (NZ and SA especially) is still way superior to most of the NH and whilst it maybe something for Wales to exploit if Roberts and JD and fully fit and firing it unfortunately won't make huge difference to overall result.

Why's that then??

RW,

Cos I for one am not afraid to admit we not in the same league as them, it will be a tremendously hard tour and would have been if we had a full strength squad going there.

As much as I hate the glorious losers and great game but still lose tag we have had against the SH for far to long now I think this tour is about seeing what else is in the tank so to speak in terms of youngsters.

For me the AIs will be a better indication of where we are in terms of our WC prep, that said again depends on injuries but if this tour gives a bit more exposure to the likes of Li Williams and lets say Cory Allen and Dan Baker then thats fine by me.

Agree to some extent Bedford…but i want to see some dog from the boys, SA will be out to smash them up front and unless Wales find their aggressive side we will get pulped. E.g. Mike Philipps, perfect for this environment and should start, even if its at 6!

Hadn't thought about it but it's a good point, this series might be right down Phillips' street. I recall he had a very good series when the Lions last toured SA, which was admittedly five years ago but still.

Playing to win is a must imo regardless of how prestigious the opposition is. Although from a Welsh perspective much of the preliminary buildup has centred around the size and physicality of the Boks' pack, particularly their back row, there is no substantial reason the forwards can't or shouldn't hold their own physically. The Scots did a handy job disrupting the breakdown last year. Looking at some stats on walesonline, there's no colossal size difference player by player across the expected starting packs.

It should also probably be noted (as the state of the opposition tends to pass under the radar a lot) that the Boks aren't exactly having a smooth run-in to the tour. They've lost skipper De Villiers and hooker Adriaan Strauss to injury (there might be a couple more, those are the two notable absentees I recall). De Villiers in particular might be a big blow if Wales get to field a fully fit Roberts and JD2

In theory(depending on selection) we will only be one/two forwards short of our 1st choice pack I am pretty sure we will see:

Jenkins, A Jones, AWJ, Lydiate and Faletau starting.

Hooker will be Owens who doesn't really lack physicality

2nd row partner will be either Ball, Evans or Charteris and all have been first choice

No7 will be the big selection dilemma do we go with an out and out 7 in Navidi or someone with more bulk.

Well at least it won't be Bradley Davies. Our parlour looks pretty bare without Tipuric and Warbs (nothing against Navidi, he just isn't proven at this level). I see Shingler is starting at 7 for the Probables on Friday, with green Ellis Jenkins his counterpart in the Possibles.

I've said it before but the most sensible non-openside option to play there is probably Faletau. The main risk then would be playing rookie Baker at 8... though if we're wanting for depth at 8 why not start working on it now?

Depends on SA…if they pick Brussow we have to pick a 7. Likewsie Burger. If we don't contend at the breakdown it will be a mess

I think Philipps might be the key to getting an edge in the fringes, of course that means slower ball but we need a scrum half who will stand up to the SA back row which is fearsome

I still don't get why everyone is always referring to our size. We are no longer "bigger" than anyone else.

Also focusing too much on our physicality might be deterrent in realising we now have some nous to go with it

Well it's clear we aren't beating the Boks up this time around, especially with the forwards we have out.
Im not worried about the front row because we have strong scrummagers in all three department. Adam needs to step up more now than ever and put a mediocre side behind him.
Our backrow option haven't been so limited in years, im praying that Dan pulls through but even then, will he be in form after a poor season at club level. But i do believe if they they stay fit we have a strong backrow in Ryan Jones, Toby Falateu and Dan Baker. We need dogs at the breakdown which the SA have many of, were dont really have that now except for Gethin Jenkins.
I hope James Hook and Garth Davies put in a good shift saturday. Mike Phillips shouldn't be going on the tour, he's past it and we should move on. I hope this shows on Friday. It would be nice to see. Dan Biggar is in good form and i hope its a real good battle between them. The back three in the possible team just shows how much we lack in depth there.

Jhamer25 wrote:Well it's clear we aren't beating the Boks up this time around, especially with the forwards we have out.
Im not worried about the front row because we have strong scrummagers in all three department. Adam needs to step up more now than ever and put a mediocre side behind him.
Our backrow option haven't been so limited in years, im praying that Dan pulls through but even then, will he be in form after a poor season at club level. But i do believe if they they stay fit we have a strong backrow in Ryan Jones, Toby Falateu and Dan Baker. We need dogs at the breakdown which the SA have many of, were dont really have that now except for Gethin Jenkins.
I hope James Hook and Garth Davies put in a good shift saturday. Mike Phillips shouldn't be going on the tour, he's past it and we should move on. I hope this shows on Friday. It would be nice to see. Dan Biggar is in good form and i hope its a real good battle between them. The back three in the possible team just shows how much we lack in depth there.

JH,

Only Hibbard and Warbs are missing out of our probable 1st pack, Owens is no lightweight at hooker though 7 is a worry.

Knowsit,

I don't think it would be that big a risk putting Baker at 8 if Lydiate and Faletau played either side, or even start R Jones at 8 give Baker a half.

When I called it a risk I didn't mean it pessimistically. Risks can turn out magnificently just as easily as they can fail. Only given that Baker is untried at this level at least a small degree of risk must be acknowledged. It should be added that it'd be an enforced risk and Baker is one of those prospective players who I feel might benefit from some preliminary experience at this level.

If Lydiate and Faletau remain uninjured throughout then all the better. It's only the 7 slot we're a bit tight on options this time, elsewhere the forwards are relatively well-supplied. If either goes though our back row will start to look suspect.

Is Ryan Jones on the plane then? I wasn't sure given his move to Bristol and the fact he's not involved in the trial.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well it's clear we aren't beating the Boks up this time around, especially with the forwards we have out.
Im not worried about the front row because we have strong scrummagers in all three department. Adam needs to step up more now than ever and put a mediocre side behind him.
Our backrow option haven't been so limited in years, im praying that Dan pulls through but even then, will he be in form after a poor season at club level. But i do believe if they they stay fit we have a strong backrow in Ryan Jones, Toby Falateu and Dan Baker. We need dogs at the breakdown which the SA have many of, were dont really have that now except for Gethin Jenkins.
I hope James Hook and Garth Davies put in a good shift saturday. Mike Phillips shouldn't be going on the tour, he's past it and we should move on. I hope this shows on Friday. It would be nice to see. Dan Biggar is in good form and i hope its a real good battle between them. The back three in the possible team just shows how much we lack in depth there.

JH,

Only Hibbard and Warbs are missing out of our probable 1st pack, Owens is no lightweight at hooker though 7 is a worry.

Knowsit,

I don't think it would be that big a risk putting Baker at 8 if Lydiate and Faletau played either side, or even start R Jones at 8 give Baker a half.

I've got no issue with Ken, in fact in my second line i said i have problem with ken, it's fair to say he should have started at the end of the six nations when Hibbard dipped in form. We can say that Hibbard wont be a miss either though. But 7 is the biggest worry as you say, I would like to see Toby their myself, with baker 8 and if fit and available Ryan Jones 6. I think that is the only option we have that can compete with the bok back row not is power but in pure class, workrate and skill

Knowsit17 wrote:When I called it a risk I didn't mean it pessimistically. Risks can turn out magnificently just as easily as they can fail. Only given that Baker is untried at this level at least a small degree of risk must be acknowledged. It should be added that it'd be an enforced risk and Baker is one of those prospective players who I feel might benefit from some preliminary experience at this level.

If Lydiate and Faletau remain uninjured throughout then all the better. It's only the 7 slot we're a bit tight on options this time, elsewhere the forwards are relatively well-supplied. If either goes though our back row will start to look suspect.

Is Ryan Jones on the plane then? I wasn't sure given his move to Bristol and the fact he's not involved in the trial.

I am guessing he's not in the trial due to him moving to Bristol early, that won't affect his availability to tour.

would also like to see Toby given a openside start and baker at eight . been impressed with baker and hope to see him given a chance .

This game hardly screams 'el classico' does it ?

You never know, the Boks have quite a number of injuries and a few players in poor form, I don't think it will be a rout as most suggest.

We certainly have a few challenges to overcome in this series.