Wales tour of SA

First topic message reminder :

Halfpenny is out and recent news (unknown to me) is stating that Warburton will now also miss out due to a dislocated shoulder. It doesn't look good for us going to SA without these two and with our recent away form being so bad. Personally I think it would be a good idea if we had a midweek game before the first test against a SA Provincial team, using the majority of our first team.

Who would you like to see on the plane?

Scratch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Scrumpy,

I think he is the man to take us to the WC but we all knew it was ludicrous extending his contract, I do though think we need to shake the backroom staff up.

Can Gatland take us forward…..last won a SH game in 2008 and that was all Shane really……Gatland cannot keep banging his head against the wall, problem is a version of his tactics won a lions tour but,  you need a dominant tight 5 and Wales tight 5 was anonymous last weekend

We used to console ourselves with "the gap is getting smaller." But that's no longer the case, not against the Boks anyhow. We were better last time we went to South Africa when Shane got two super tries. As for the Aussies, they seem to have moved up a gear since the Lions tour, with better coaching and morale and Quade Cooper back in form. England are moving up to that level too, with good coaching and quality options in most positions. Getting out of our WC group is going to be a helluva challenge without fresh thinking and fresh personnel.

George Carlin wrote:Brian Moore in the Telegraph:

If the New Zealand odyssey has yielded some comfort for Lancaster the same cannot be said for Warren Gatland and Wales’s 38-16 defeat against South Africa in Durban over the weekend.

Lacklustre and uninventive, the Welsh never looked remotely like breaking their now extensive run of losses against southern hemisphere opponents and some are now beginning to ask whether Gatland has gone as far as he can with Wales.

To pose the question is to commit a form of heresy to many and yet this point comes in every coach/team relationship and is not necessarily a bad reflection on either.

Gatland does not have to prove he is a top-class coach; three Grand Slams and a series win with the British and Irish Lions incontrovertibly prove that. But Warrenball, or whatever nomenclature you choose to apply to Wales’s style of play, is now looking tired and predictable.

At its highest it is a strategy based on power and directness but too often the required physical subjugation of opponents and domination of the gain line is not achieved by the Welsh. That being so you have to ask reluctantly whether a new approach all round is needed.

i take back what i said, no way i can agree with Moore. Gatland is god. end of.

Scratch wrote:Gatland and co are stuck in Groupthink, they are obsessed with a certain tactic because against the NH it has been very very successful.

Problem is they think that , playing the odds, they will come good this way down under eventually.

With our tight 5 and 9 they won't.

Shane was always the outlier in the welsh squad because he bucked the big balls trend, and since he has gone and gatland has abandoned hi tempo offload, we have become stodgy, predictable and lacking innovation, behind an impotent tight 5 and a turgid 9.

If he is smart Gatland will ring changes because post game platitudes no longer wash.

Morgan and Davies must become the core of a side that mixes bosh with gosh.

Gatland will go post RWC.

if gatland does go post RWC, he will do so with a nice GBP2million cheque in his pocket from the WRU.

I often in the past could take Moore at the commentary gig because his brash, blunt, bulldog passion could always throw up a joke (sometimes at the expense of the team or teams he was watching, sometimes at his expense)  But I do honestly wish he's just shut up now.
He's done the act and it's time to retire like a good few players have done this season.  We know his moves and it gets tiring.  The sly swipes at old enemies, the "Im passionate about me country so much so that I don't mind bantering even in me journalism" bit is aging not gracefully.  He's an aging man - like some of the rest of us - and maybe he should act like one now and not a young guy down'th'pub larging it with his mates.

It's repetitive stuff and too predictable.  Wales do well - grunts and half hearted murmurs of 'didn't they do well - maybe'.  Wales do badly and the sly undercuts of delicious delights served with a glass of Champagne.  

"That being so you have to ask reluctantly whether a new approach all round is needed"  Ho! Ho!  Hee! Hee!  How subtle there, Brian.  We'd almost feel there for a second, if we were idiots that is,  that you care about Wales and their dilemma.  The truth is - not reluctantly - that you don't give a schit. And you want them - not reluctantly - to know it.

Is he wrong though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he wrong though?

He's tiresome, No 7.  He's just infinitely tiresome to me now.  Which I'm not happy about because I still have rugby to watch and I'd actually like to enjoy him, but he just can't take himself above the sneering stuff.  Some wise crackers offer you two sides of their personality so that you can accept the occasional put-downs because they have shown more wholesome gracious attributes at other times. In other words you know they're just mucking around and having fun.  Moore is just endlessly ratty and snipey and I don't think it's fun for him - it settling old scores - endlessly.  Always looking for a moment for a sly, as he thinks, dig.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he wrong though?

He's tiresome, No 7.  He's just infinitely tiresome to me now.  Which I'm not happy about because I still have rugby to watch and I'd actually like to enjoy him, but he just can't take himself above the sneering stuff.  Some wise crackers offer you two sides of their personality so that you can accept the occasional put-downs because they have shown more wholesome gracious attributes at other times.  In other words you know they're just mucking around and having fun.  Moore is just endlessly ratty and snipey and I don't think it's fun for him - it settling old scores - endlessly.  Always looking for a moment for a sly, as he thinks, dig.

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

I still think on the BBC he's the best '2nd' commentator/analyst/whatever you call them. Always willing to give it to England as well.

lostinwales wrote:

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

He's tiresome. A relic. A peevish relic forever fighting old battles in his head. How many ways do I have to put this?

Personally think he's just honest. I don't see any bias as I do with other BBC pundits.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

He's tiresome.  A relic.  A peevish relic forever fighting old battles in his head.  How many ways do I have to put this?  

well dont read his columns and maybe try radio/alternate commentary next time he is up.

Personally I rate him because he is one of the very few commentators who has actually shown public commitment to extending his knowledge of the game (yes - the learning to be a ref bit) and who shows some knowledge of its deep and dark recesses. There are any number of idiots writing and talking about Rugby and there are plenty who are an awful lot worse.

There is nothing worse for me lost than when you see a former back commentating and saying not really sure what's going on in the scrum see Austin Healy and a host of others. Really? You're being paid to know and tell us!

Simple changes for me for the second test:

1. James for Jenkins
2. Rees for Owens
3. Lee for Jones
5. Ball for Charteris
7. Faletau for Shingler
8. Baker
9. Davies for Phillips
12. Allen for Roberts

Oh and for Gatland to make subs earlier. He always waits about 5-10 mins too long for me, and by that time its too late to salvage anything.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

He's tiresome.  A relic.  A peevish relic forever fighting old battles in his head.  How many ways do I have to put this?  

But is what he is saying not 100% correct?

Liam wrote:Simple changes for me for the second test:

1. James for Jenkins
2. Rees for Owens
3. Lee for Jones
5. Ball for Charteris
7. Faletau for Shingler
8. Baker
9. Davies for Phillips
12. Allen for Roberts

Oh and for Gatland to make subs earlier. He always waits about 5-10 mins too long for me, and by that time its too late to salvage anything.

Didnt wait that long to replace Adam Jones

Riskysports wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

He's tiresome.  A relic.  A peevish relic forever fighting old battles in his head.  How many ways do I have to put this?  

But is what he is saying not 100% correct?

So the question is that despite the sly, grey, everlasting boot in the face directed at arch enemy (one of them - he has many more); despite the quite obvious sneering tone and delightful opportunity he had to dog Wales, after probably worrying that they might do something of a seasonal comeback, despite you all recognising the leer and the hidden backstabbing 'concern' of his piece.............. the question remains was he 100% correct?

Well, it's like asking someone if the KKK are not 100% correct when they say marriage between black people and white people are mixing of races.  "Well yeah, Klux, you is right in purely physiological ways but I still don't like the way you're saying it or the reasons why."

Moore is close to being correct but not by a long shot 100%.

Now, you to me.  Question back at you.  You see I'm hearing a lot of 'Buts' in response to me....  so.............: Moore might be 100% correct  BUT is he not playing out his sneery, snipey, peevish  get-at-the-Welsh-any-way-I-can in a way deemed to pander to his usual Wales dumping persona?
He's no better than Stephen Jones really.  Had Wales won well, he's have simply chosen to do a piece about England, or Scotland, or Fance, or Ireland or something that didn't mention Wales winning.

Faletau at 7 is a good call, he is very good on the deck and to me has always seemed a bit small for an international 8. Very good player though, 7 could be his position.

My changes:

James & Lee for Jenkins and Jones. Evans for Charteris and Ball to the bench as an impact player. And finally Davies for Phillips. I would also bring Cory Allen onto the bench in place of Morgan. 4 changes to the starting 15 and two to the bench.

Seagultaf wrote:My changes:

James & Lee for Jenkins and Jones. Evans for Charteris and Ball to the bench as an impact player. And finally Davies for Phillips. I would also bring Cory Allen onto the bench in place of Morgan. 4 changes to the starting 15 and two to the bench.

Was reading well until you dropped Morgan….nonsensical, he is exactly the way we need to go.

Morgan
North
J Davies
Allen
J Williams
Bigger
G Davies

James
Rees
Lee
Ball
Awj
Lydiate
Turnbull
Faletau

Bench -: Owens, Jenkins, A Jones, Evans, Baker; Phillips, Hook, Cuthbert

A heap of changes, granted but theoretically more grunt in the pack, more skills in the backs. And also a kick up the jacksee for those that just didn't seem to bother on Saturday.

SS,

I would most probably start Owens and would think about dropping North and Cuthbert if we had options out there as both need a kick up the jacksi and were both as bad as each other last week.

Bedford, George was ill most the week so gets the benefit of the doubt, but Cuthbert was woeful (papering leaking two tries by scoring one), as was Sanjay. So seeing as we need at least one experienced player in the wide backs I guess North is the one that humped up the least.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bedford, George was ill most the week so gets the benefit of the doubt, but Cuthbert was woeful (papering leaking two tries by scoring one), as was Sanjay.  So seeing as we need at least one experienced player in the wide backs I guess North is the one that humped up the least.

Both were not great in defence but Shingler was not great missing a tackle leaving Cuthbert with a two on one, where was the fullback Williams, it was his worst performance for Wales. I don't think North caught a high ball all game knocking on every time. Our back row were rubbish, no big 8, a 6 only tackles (well) and a 7 who is a 6. Only for this game I would have Falatau at 7, AWj at 6 and the young Ospreys 8 with Ball and Evans in the second row, I prefer a decent 7 but stupidly we did not pick one! Shingler and Turnbull are average club players that look good against weak opposition.

glamorganalun wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bedford, George was ill most the week so gets the benefit of the doubt, but Cuthbert was woeful (papering leaking two tries by scoring one), as was Sanjay.  So seeing as we need at least one experienced player in the wide backs I guess North is the one that humped up the least.

Both were not great in defence but Shingler was not great missing a tackle leaving Cuthbert with a two on one, where was the fullback Williams, it was his worst performance for Wales. I don't think North caught a high ball all game knocking on every time. Our back row were rubbish, no big 8, a 6 only tackles (well) and a 7 who is a 6. Only for this game I would have Falatau at 7, AWj at 6 and the young Ospreys 8 with Ball and Evans in the second row, I prefer a decent 7 but stupidly we did not pick one! Shingler and Turnbull are average club players that look good against weak opposition.

The best 7 and breakdown worker from the probables/possibles game isn't even in the squad,...

Come on, you have to take at least one Blues no7...

i would start with Samson and Jake ball . Jenkins will be better this second test to keep him with owns . Toby at 7 baker at 8 . Morgan 15 and anybody for 12 . Roberts just not doing it

Alun,

AWJ at 6 is such a non starter for me Jenkins tried that in WC friendly and it was an utter disaster. I would either start Turnbull or move Faletau.

For me North just seems (wrongly) untouchable and some people don't even criticise him but are happy to put all blame onto Cuthbert, as you said were was Williams his positional play was bad through out and the one try that went down Norths wing was a missed tackle and he should have smashed Hendricks into touch and just thrown his body in the way.

Scratch wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:My changes:

James & Lee for Jenkins and Jones. Evans for Charteris and Ball to the bench as an impact player. And finally Davies for Phillips. I would also bring Cory Allen onto the bench in place of Morgan. 4 changes to the starting 15 and two to the bench.

Was reading well until you dropped Morgan….nonsensical, he is exactly the way we need to go.

Morgan is a pretty runner but has no defence and little interest in that part of the game. He was 3rd choice full back at the Ospreys this season for a reason, the same reason that he was released and will be playing in the English 2nd tier next season! If he bulks up and works on his defence, he may make a decent regional wing, but has a long way to go to make a plausable case as a test player.

His defence has nothing to with why he is playing in the English 2nd tier.

Morgan put more effort into barreling Mvovo(or hendricks) into touch at 70 mins than North did with Hendricks in the first ten

Jordan Williams can also play fullback comfortably, he did so in last years JWC and was phenomenal in the counter attack, however his defence is probably just as frail as Morgans, its a tricky one. The only other tried option is to play Hook there.

15. Hook
14. Cuthbert
13. Davies
12. Allen
11. J Williams / North
10. Morgan / Biggar
9. Davies

I hope Allen gets at least a bench slot he does excite and brings something different than Roberts and Davies.

The back 3 is either the go with it again lot (Cuthbert North and Li Williams) or put faith in a few youngsters (J Williams and Morgan) - I don't think it will make a lot of difference if the pack don't at least hold their own and meet fire with fire so to speak.

We can't have Ball and AWJ together in the 2nd row, we need a giraffe to jump in the middle of the lineout, I would go with AWJ/Evans, and Ball on the bench. Front row Jenkins, Owens, Lee. I can't see how we're going to get a decent back row out, but would go with Lydiate, Faletau, Baker. Gatland won't.

Blue,

Put James at No1 and I would agree with that pack though think we more likely to see maybe Turnbull at No7

when is the team announced?

Thursday according to the Wales news

Oh ffs I thought it was tomorrow. As long as he makes the right call I don't mind (he won't though)

Jhamer25 wrote:Oh ffs I thought it was tomorrow. As long as he makes the right call I don't mind (he won't though)

Right call by who though JH, we all dis-agree slightly in the make of the team but all agree changes need to be made.

SecretFly wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

So what is he supposed to say about Wales? Nothing? Or just state the bleedin obvious and wait for the locals to attack the messenger rather than fix the problem?

He's tiresome.  A relic.  A peevish relic forever fighting old battles in his head.  How many ways do I have to put this?  

But is what he is saying not 100% correct?

So the question is that despite the sly, grey, everlasting boot in the face directed at arch enemy (one of them - he has many more); despite the quite obvious sneering tone and delightful opportunity he had to dog Wales, after probably worrying that they might do something of a seasonal comeback, despite you all recognising the leer and the hidden backstabbing 'concern' of his piece.............. the question remains was he 100% correct?

Well, it's like asking someone if the KKK are not 100% correct when they say marriage between black people and white people are mixing of races.  "Well yeah, Klux, you is right in purely physiological ways but I still don't like the way you're saying it or the reasons why."

Moore is close to being correct but not by a long shot 100%.

Now, you to me.  Question back at you.  You see I'm hearing a lot of 'Buts' in response to me....  so.............: Moore might be 100% correct  BUT is he not playing out his sneery, snipey, peevish  get-at-the-Welsh-any-way-I-can in a way deemed to pander to his usual Wales dumping persona?
He's no better than Stephen Jones really.  Had Wales won well, he's have simply chosen to do a piece about England, or Scotland, or Fance, or Ireland or something that didn't mention Wales winning.

Brian Moore seems a decent man to me. I don't see any anti Welsh sentiment in his writings. From my memory of reading "Beware of The Dog" I think he has an adopted Welsh half brother and expresses admiration for the Welsh supporter. I don't know where you and your Thesaurus are coming from. Have you just started a creative writing course?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Oh ffs I thought it was tomorrow. As long as he makes the right call I don't mind (he won't though)

Right call by who though JH, we all dis-agree slightly in the make of the team but all agree changes need to be made.

The right calls by mind obviously haha
Even though we don't all agree you are right something had to improves because this will be a dire years for welsh rugby otherwise. The Autumn isn't going to get any easier.

As a side issue I think Brian Moore is one of the best commenters on the box, and one of the most impartial, a very experienced ex player (3 GS. 3 RWC, 2 Lions, World Player of the year), and he is also a qualified referee. A good and honest, don't mince yer words pundit.

So my selection for the next Welsh side against SA
15 Williams
14 Williams
11 North

13 Allen
12 Davies

10 Biggar
9 Davies

8 Baker
7 Turnbull
6 Lydiate

5 AWJ
4 Ball

3 Lee
2 Owens
1 James

16 Jenkins
17 Rees
18 Jones
19 Charteris
20 Shingler
21 Phillips
22 Roberts
23 Morgan

fly,

Again I not know why North seems undroppable (he was no better than Cuthbert on the weekend and I still believe he wouldn't have scored that try).

Think it would be better if Allen and Davies were swapped and if Baker then Faletau at 7, he won't drop him though he did looked a bit jaded on Saturday.

Would most probably have Evans on bench over Charteris.

I agree about North and Cuthbert, their positional play was found out a number of times when they were turned around with kicks that went past them.

The Welsh try was a beauty though, outpacing 4 forwards and then slicing inside to beat Willie le Roux for the try

For what it's worth, I quite like Brian Moore as a pundit and don't find him anti-Welsh. I remember him giving MOM to Rob Sidoli when England had just beaten Wales comfortably in Cardiff, not really the act of someone out to do Wales down.

Morning bedfordwelsh/Billtong

I actually didn't see any of last weekends tests including Scotlands grrrrr.

However I agree with one of the press pundits regarding Wales generally against NH & SH opponents and North specifically.

Firstly there is no Plan B with Wales, secondly Wales (like Scotland) generally are a naturally small nation but over the last decade the Welsh side are now probably taller/bigger than most sides. There are two sides of this which I believe are detrimental to Wales, firstly Plan A or call it Plan Zero..... Warrenball........ Gatlandball is reliant on general bulk, "80 min" fitness and  speed from 1-15. Secondly Gatlands blind perseverance in taking away the natural innate qualities (call it skill or talent) of the entire squad, including the likes of Halfpenny, Hook, Liam Williams, (these guys have a skill set that is not based on unnatural bulk), those innate skills have been eroded systematically by WRU national coach and replaced a generic one vision and that is to win 6Ns GS. Unfortunately Gatland cannae see that it doesn't work against naturally big side i.e. SA are naturally bigger than Wales and don't erode that natural quality but nurtures and develops it...... a fine example currently is Willie le Roux 6ft 1in and just a tad over 14st, playing his natural game, been given the freedom to express himself on the test stage but also been coached on other "unnatural qualities" i.e. his defence to be the complete back, now compare that to James Hook who is an equally skilful versatile player (both played 10, 12, 13, 15) and current 15, Hooky is about an inch shorter but almost a stone heavier, never plays his natural game and in my mind lost something when he bulked up.

That is one of the main reasons Wales are probably the most successful side against NH sides but the least successful against the likes of SA, NZ, and OZ.

Back to the selection
15 Liam Williams
I would retain as it wasn't so long ago that he was MOTM for Wales and a kneejerk reaction to one poor game is no good for anyone.

14 Cuthbert
Defensively is still not up there, and apart from his fantastic try had a poor game. He was fit and not coming off an illness like North.

11 North
Poor game throughout, no pace, defence very poor, very lethargic. Gatland should not have selected a not fit and still feeling the effects of his virus. However a fit North arguably would have been a different proposition.

Centre
I think Davies is a good 12 and better on the inside than Allen who deserves his selection.

Backrow
Faletau was off the pace, and I still think he is too small for the number 8 shirt. Turnbull has impressed this season, and certainly made a difference when he came on. Baker has had an excellent season and should have been selected at 8 for the last test.

Saying that all the selections above are marginal and if it wasn't SA in a test I would go for a pacey skilful backs of

15 Morgan
14 Williams
11 Williams

13 Allen
12 Davies

10 Hook
9 Davies

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/wales-team-play-south-africa-7287153 - The fans' XV: wrote:Your team

Matthew Morgan
Alex Cuthbert
Jonathan Davies
Jamie Roberts
George North
James Hook
Gareth Davies

Gethin Jenkins
Ken Owens
Samson Lee
Alun Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Josh Turnbull
Taulupe Faletau
Dan Lydiate

Any of us had that as our team?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/wales-team-play-south-africa-7287153 - The fans' XV: wrote:Your team

Matthew Morgan
Alex Cuthbert
Jonathan Davies
Jamie Roberts
George North
James Hook
Gareth Davies

Gethin Jenkins
Ken Owens
Samson Lee
Alun Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Josh Turnbull
Taulupe Faletau
Dan Lydiate

Any of us had that as our team?

Nope not me, I would make at least 4 changes to that side, James for Jenkins, Baker for Turnbull, Biggar for Hook and Allen for Roberts. Those are the 4 I would def make then I would be tempted to put J Williams in on one of the wings and possibly leave Li Williams in as after all we were all raving about him in the 6 Nations so one poor game etc etc - Welsh fans fickle NEVER lol

Team

Liam Williams (Scarlets), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), George North (Northampton Saints), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Alun Wyn Jones (Capt) (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons).

Replacements: Matthew Rees (Cardiff Blues), Paul James (Bath), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Dan Baker (Ospreys), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), James Hook (Perpignan), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys).


MIKE PHILLIPS   

Well, surprising for all the wrong reasons

any consolation to Gareth Davies  after this game  his time is near . hopefully he ll come on second half when score wise its too late and south African players are joking about and high fiving each other

Gatland's less than cunning plan is obviously to continue to take SA on physically - no prizes for guessing how that's going to work out.