Wales tour of SA

First topic message reminder :

Halfpenny is out and recent news (unknown to me) is stating that Warburton will now also miss out due to a dislocated shoulder. It doesn't look good for us going to SA without these two and with our recent away form being so bad. Personally I think it would be a good idea if we had a midweek game before the first test against a SA Provincial team, using the majority of our first team.

Who would you like to see on the plane?

It's a fair question.

What's wrong with asking that?

why don' t you just tell us how to improve...let me guess, we should drop warrenball? am i right? correct scratch you win an O.B. E.!!!!

I haven't watched it yet.

But stats and score lines rarely lie.

get rid of philips. davies looks like the future. pacy, creative, dangerous.

get rid of the immobile forwards who aim to win penalties at scrum. the new rules mean thats not likely to happen as much any more. far more important is the tackling, carrying and rucking while being stable enough at the scrum.

stop relying on 1/2P. it has created a dependence and addiction to attempting to win penalties and infringements that is a core reason why Wales do not win against SH teams. to win against SH teams you need a very real open play, and broken play threat.

find and stick with your best playmaker 10. not just someone who is between the 9-man pack, roberts and north.

Did Gethin keep the scrum up?

Gethin did keep the scrum up, but the SA scrum was a lot better than last week

Surprised Beast was dropped, is he the weak link? He's been great for Sharks

Are we seeing some impact from players leaving Wales? Were they benefiting from having most of the players in 4 (or 3) teams? Familiarity, etc.

Although as I'm writing this I check and it seems only 5 starters play outside Wales. And just 2 on the bench.

Untill Gatland remembers that attacking rugby depends on fast ball and to get that forwards have to clear out effectively Wales will never get the quality possession they need to challenge quality sides. I'm so tired of watching Wales forwards arrive in dribs and drabs and engage in a bit of wrestling whilst the opposition simply nab the ball and play rugby with it. I am equally fed up of watching Phillips grimmacing and thrashing about as if he's a hard man, all the while tossing out hospital passes to his flyhalves. Most of all I am sick to death of watching Wales losing games with shee-oite tactics and just trying them with greater effort when things go wrong.

Carwyn must be headbutting his coffin lid.

I cannot work out whether the Lions tour has been good or bad for this Welsh team.

Gatland would have felt his tactics (which Wales have used successfully for nearly a decade) were absolutely vindicated and the test wins were delivered with the majority of players being Welsh. It's impossible to claim that position has no justification. The thing of course is that prior to the Lions tour, that approach was getting some domestic criticism and people were asking whether Wales shouldn't be using other tactics. The Lions tour bought Gatland at least another 2 years of doing exactly the same thing without really being challenged.

However, I think that people have already identified the reasons that this seems to have so consistently fallen short against the SANZAR nations. You cannot have forwards who do not move to breakdowns fast enough and clear out properly - they are exposed immediately when teams like NZ and SA make a point of shifting the point of attack and contact.

My views on Mike Philips are fairly well known but I will take my life in my hands by repeating them - no top team in the word (and I mean none) has a first choice 9 incapable of providing quick and accurate ball. He looks great when his team are on the front foot but when the pack is matched and cannot bully the opposition, it is very difficult to regard him as anything other than a liability as he simply stops Wales from using another tactical option because he cannot do anything other than what he usually does. He cannot vary his game and by modern standards (look at Aaron Smith and Rory Kockott for what is possible) his pass is awful. I am really sympathetic to whomever partners him at halfback because it must be a nightmare to get slow ball so far behind your gainline.

The other reason that Wales won so often in recent years is Shaun Edwards' superb defensive sequencing, which the players can execute and which Wales understand. But you can't win games without the ball.

Scratch wrote:why did Poite ping AWJ for a high tackle and miss the corker by SA on Morgan, why did he allow people to fly into rucks off their feet, and card Roberts but not Du plessis for killing the ball.

so the fans have someone to blame for the defeat?

Well I think Davies has solidified his starting place, any other coach in the world would pick him ahead of Phillips on current form.

Comes off the bench in the mid week game, scores a disallowed try, scores another a few minutes later. Comes off the bench against SA, ups the tempo of the game, makes a 50m break and scores a try that was ruled forward. How can you ignore a threat like that when Phillips does nothing for 60 minutes?

IronMike wrote: How can you ignore a threat like that when Phillips does nothing for 60 minutes?

When you're an OBE. Rights and privileges. Rights and privileges.

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:why did Poite ping AWJ for a high tackle and miss the corker by SA on Morgan, why did he allow people to fly into rucks off their feet, and card Roberts but not Du plessis for killing the ball.

 so the fans have someone to blame for the defeat?

Lol  

The thing is, there was a clear different style to the Welsh play in the second half when the replacements came on, they kept the ball more, tried running into space more rather than into the Boks. I'm not sure whether that is Gatlands law or whether the replacements started taking things into their own hands a bit.

IronMike wrote:The thing is, there was a clear different style to the Welsh play in the second half when the replacements came on, they kept the ball more, tried running into space more rather than into the Boks. I'm not sure whether that is Gatlands law or whether the replacements started taking things into their own hands a bit.

But Mike, that is also a stock nothing-to-lose now response from the Welsh.  When the Welsh are down and look like they are out of the game in terms of the scoreline, they usually loosen up and all bets are off on structure and original gameplan.  And yes, that's when they become most dangerous actually as Ireland nearly found out a year ago in 6N.

So yes, you might say Wales played a better class of rugby in the second half but it came from a place where SA had a cushion they could defend on and Wales felt they had little to lose.

In the beginning of every important game there is much to lose, and BOTH SIDES are hungry to impose themselves at the beginning.  Had SA needed scores as much as Wales in the second half would Wales have been given the space to run into?  It's all relative to the scorelines that Wales choose to open up on.

As usual stayed off these boards for a day after the game cos they either full of doom and gloom when we lose, we back to best when we win or just full of idiots trying to WUM.

We were 2nd best my a very large margin and Gatland now has a few big calls to make in the front row and the backline.

I am a bit puzzled as to why he took Jones rather than Jenkins but both should move aside next week for James and Lee.

Davies has to start in place of Phillips and for me Roberts needs to be dropped as well and I would give Allen and JD a try in the centre.

People slate Cuthbert but thought he was no better or worse than North, who at the moment does seem untouchable, he should have smashed Hendricks when he scored. So maybe J Williams should come in for one of them to prove they not indispensable.

Not to sure about starting Morgan but wouldn't be to upset if he did.

So for me:

James
Ownes
Lee
AWJ
Evans
Lydiate
Faletau
Turnbull

Davies
Biggar

North
Allen
JD
J Williams

Li Williams

Jenkins Rees Jones Ball Baker Rh Williams Hook Morgan

bedfordwelsh wrote:As usual stayed off these boards for a day after the game cos they either full of doom and gloom when we lose, we back to best when we win or just full of idiots trying to WUM.

We were 2nd best my a very large margin and Gatland now has a few big calls to make in the front row and the backline.

I am a bit puzzled as to why he took Jones rather than Jenkins but both should move aside next week for James and Lee.

Davies has to start in place of Phillips and for me Roberts needs to be dropped as well and I would give Allen and JD a try in the centre.

People slate Cuthbert but thought he was no better or worse than North, who at the moment does seem untouchable, he should have smashed Hendricks when he scored.  So maybe J Williams should come in for one of them to prove they not indispensable.

Not to sure about starting Morgan but wouldn't be to upset if he did.

So for me:

James
Ownes
Lee
AWJ
Evans
Lydiate
Faletau
Turnbull

Davies
Biggar

North
Allen
JD
J Williams

Li Williams

Jenkins Rees Jones Ball Baker Rh Williams Hook Morgan

Wasn't impressed with Liam Williams either. He's a good runner with ball in hand, but lacks awareness and intelligence. It was his botched pass that spoiled the first minute overlap for Cuthbert, and he came roaring off the try line when Le Roux chipped and missed man and ball by a country mile.

George Carlin wrote:My views on Mike Philips are fairly well known but I will take my life in my hands by repeating them - no top team in the word (and I mean none) has a first choice 9 incapable of providing quick and accurate ball. He looks great when his team are on the front foot but when the pack is matched and cannot bully the opposition, it is very difficult to regard him as anything other than a liability as he simply stops Wales from using another tactical option because he cannot do anything other than what he usually does. He cannot vary his game and by modern standards (look at Aaron Smith and Rory Kockott for what is possible) his pass is awful. I am really sympathetic to whomever partners him at halfback because it must be a nightmare to get slow ball so far behind your gainline.

I've said this before, but I think Gatland should really have put Phillips out to pasture after the final Lions test; Murray made a big difference in that game.

The Bachelor wrote:

George Carlin wrote:My views on Mike Philips are fairly well known but I will take my life in my hands by repeating them - no top team in the word (and I mean none) has a first choice 9 incapable of providing quick and accurate ball. He looks great when his team are on the front foot but when the pack is matched and cannot bully the opposition, it is very difficult to regard him as anything other than a liability as he simply stops Wales from using another tactical option because he cannot do anything other than what he usually does. He cannot vary his game and by modern standards (look at Aaron Smith and Rory Kockott for what is possible) his pass is awful. I am really sympathetic to whomever partners him at halfback because it must be a nightmare to get slow ball so far behind your gainline.

I've said this before, but I think Gatland should really have put Phillips out to pasture after the final Lions test; Murray made a big difference in that game.

It's difficult for Gats because Phillips scores quite a few tries for a scrum half (including 9 for Wales, which is a good return) and is the sort of combative big fecker that Gatland clearly loves. But surely we have to understand by now that it's horses for courses. If the pack is likely to be met with another equally as large and as skilled, then Wales need a 9 like Gareth Davies, who is both a sniper and a distributor.

MikeyPhil + SANZAR = NO NO

It's just frustrating more that anything. Same old Poopie, high balls after nearly every scrum, attack down the blindside most of the time, slow ball, no attack all the same old. If Gatland is going to be this stubborn and ignorant about changing his game plan which nearly everyone knows except him then he shouldn't be head coach for the next six nations, never mind the world cup in 2019.
I don't put all the blames on Gatland because the players just had nothing in them, no fight, no care and no pride.
We are no longer an attacking force in the scrum (for a matter of fact no international rugby team is consistently with the new scrum laws).
The only players who even looked to be trying were Alyn Wyn, Gethin and Dan Biggar.

The team who has to start on are:
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee (was great and physical when he came on)
4. Alyn Wyn Jones
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Toby Falateu
8. Dan Baker (still don't understand why he wasn't at least on the bench)

9. Gareth Davies (Gatland would be stupid not to)
10. Dan Biggar (but needs to cut down on the high balls)
11. Jordan Williams
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. George North
15. Liam Williams

16. Matthew Rees, 17. Paul James, 18. Adam Jones, 19. Jake Ball, 20. Josh Turnball, 21. Rhodri Williams, 22. James Hook, 23. Matthew Morgan

We need ball in hand to attack because they have great players in the air when we kick it away could be seen yesterday. I don't expect anything though because overall it just looks like the team don't have it in them at the moment.

Alun Wyn on beeb blaming it on mistakes. Didn't see that excuse coming ....

IT'S THE MINDNUMBING MINDLESS ADHERENCE TO PROVEN INEFFECTIVE TACTICS, THE SELECTION OF PAST IT PLAYERS AND THE INABILITY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS AT THE BREAKDOWN!!!!!!!!!! IT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS - AAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!

Mummy, why cant they see it, please Mummy tell me (rocks back and forth).

Jhamer25 wrote:It's just frustrating more that anything. Same old Poopie, high balls after nearly every scrum, attack down the blindside most of the time, slow ball, no attack all the same old. If Gatland is going to be this stubborn and ignorant about changing his game plan which nearly everyone knows except him then he shouldn't be head coach for the next six nations, never mind the world cup in 2019.
I don't put all the blames on Gatland because the players just had nothing in them, no fight, no care and no pride.
We are no longer an attacking force in the scrum (for a matter of fact no international rugby team is consistently with the new scrum laws).
The only players who even looked to be trying were Alyn Wyn, Gethin and Dan Biggar.

The team who has to start on are:
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee (was great and physical when he came on)
4. Alyn Wyn Jones
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Toby Falateu
8. Dan Baker (still don't understand why he wasn't at least on the bench)

9. Gareth Davies (Gatland would be stupid not to)
10. Dan Biggar (but needs to cut down on the high balls)
11. Jordan Williams
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. George North
15. Liam Williams

16. Matthew Rees, 17. Paul James, 18. Adam Jones, 19. Jake Ball, 20. Josh Turnball, 21. Rhodri Williams, 22. James Hook, 23. Matthew Morgan

We need ball in hand to attack because they have great players in the air when we kick it away could be seen yesterday. I don't expect  anything though because overall it just looks like the team don't have it in them at the moment.

We can all hope but I think Gatland knows his starting 15 for the World Cup and its not going to be very different to the one on Saturday, Warburton and Tipuric ahead of Turnbull and Shingler

IronMike wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:It's just frustrating more that anything. Same old Poopie, high balls after nearly every scrum, attack down the blindside most of the time, slow ball, no attack all the same old. If Gatland is going to be this stubborn and ignorant about changing his game plan which nearly everyone knows except him then he shouldn't be head coach for the next six nations, never mind the world cup in 2019.
I don't put all the blames on Gatland because the players just had nothing in them, no fight, no care and no pride.
We are no longer an attacking force in the scrum (for a matter of fact no international rugby team is consistently with the new scrum laws).
The only players who even looked to be trying were Alyn Wyn, Gethin and Dan Biggar.

The team who has to start on are:
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee (was great and physical when he came on)
4. Alyn Wyn Jones
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Toby Falateu
8. Dan Baker (still don't understand why he wasn't at least on the bench)

9. Gareth Davies (Gatland would be stupid not to)
10. Dan Biggar (but needs to cut down on the high balls)
11. Jordan Williams
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. George North
15. Liam Williams

16. Matthew Rees, 17. Paul James, 18. Adam Jones, 19. Jake Ball, 20. Josh Turnball, 21. Rhodri Williams, 22. James Hook, 23. Matthew Morgan

We need ball in hand to attack because they have great players in the air when we kick it away could be seen yesterday. I don't expect  anything though because overall it just looks like the team don't have it in them at the moment.

We can all hope but I think Gatland knows his starting 15 for the World Cup and its not going to be very different to the one on Saturday, Warburton and Tipuric ahead of Turnbull and Shingler

JH,

Why drop Jones and not Jenkins I thought he struggled more and James is the better scrummager, likewise why drop Cuthbert and not North. North should have hammered Hendricks into touch when he scored and I honestly don't think North would have scored that try I think he would have chipped ahead rather than backed himself.

SS,

Agree Li Williams had a poor game as did Roberts so maybe Morgan could start at XV, I wouldn't be upset if he did and I think Cory Allen should be involved as he brings something different.

1. Gethin - I thought he did OK
2. Smiler - Experience
3. Lee -     Did well when he came on. Need to look toward future. Adam no longer the force he was. Is he really going to get better for WC when another year older?
4. Alan Wyn
5. Charteris
6. Lydiate
8. Falatau
7. Turnbull - Looked more physical than Schindler

9. Davies - Looked hungry, fast and dangerous
10. Hook   - Dan did nothing wrong but plays safety first too often. With a better service Hook may just shine
11. Jordan - He brings a little bit of Shane to the table and George hasn't had a really good game for a while.
12. Allen - Is a younger more skillful version of Roberts
13. JD
14. Cuthbert - I feel like shouting "Run Forest Run" whenever he gets the ball but he is a top finisher
15. Liam - Not his best day but Saturday was IMO his first poor game in a Red Shirt. Matthew is defensively not physically blessed in this position.

Thats what I would do for what its worth

You've got to love the crap that comes out in post match interviews:

"We want to play them on every possible occasion because we learn so much and there is a big step up in terms of pace and intensity, and there was a big step up for the guys here" - Gatland.

"We showed that we haven't learned from our past mistakes by giving them freedom and wide open spaces" - AWJ

So which is it? Are Wales learning from playing SA? What have we learnt from this match that we didn't learn against England and Ireland in the 6 Nations? (aside form the fact that some players deserve to be dropped and others starting on form such as Lee and Davies)

The boys need to wake up, we haven't beaten one of the big 3 since 2008 even when they've had weaker squads. If the game plan is not being executed correctly then we don't have the players who can execute it, if we don't have the players that can execute it, change the game plan to something that suits their strengths.

IronMike wrote:You've got to love the crap that comes out in post match interviews:

"We want to play them on every possible occasion because we learn so much and there is a big step up in terms of pace and intensity, and there was a big step up for the guys here" - Gatland.

"We showed that we haven't learned from our past mistakes by giving them freedom and wide open spaces" - AWJ

So which is it? Are Wales learning from playing SA? What have we learnt from this match that we didn't learn against England and Ireland in the 6 Nations? (aside form the fact that some players deserve to be dropped and others starting on form such as Lee and Davies)

The boys need to wake up, we haven't beaten one of the big 3 since 2008 even when they've had weaker squads. If the game plan is not being executed correctly then we don't have the players who can execute it, if we don't have the players that can execute it, change the game plan to something that suits their strengths.

and how did we beat Aus in 08, Shane mostly

What is the closest thing to Shane we have? Morgan.

Big backs are great but Wales provenance has always been footballers and offload, elusive running and guile as much as route 1 up the jumper

As pointed out by others same old tactics, not jumping in opposition line outs and kicking too long and predictable attack.

L Williams no where to be seen for any of the try's terrible positional play, his worst game by a long way.

With this coaching team we have no chance getting out of the group in the RWC, yes Wales do well against NH teams but can't beat any of the top 3 using current tactics. Wales have very good players but we are not getting the best out of the team, currently we are going backwards in more ways than one.

I thought G Jenkins was our best flanker he turned over more than the Wales back row combined and held his side up.

Just about managed to calm down from yesterday. Have not seem such an abject, passionless, dispirited performance from a Welsh side since before the 2003 WC!

Yes the Boks played tactically well, yes we were tactically naive, I have kind of come to expect that under Gatland but the utter passiveness with which that side played yesterday was totally embarrassing. That first xv, man for man were manhandled by their opposite numbers and I would be totally embarrassed. People saying Wyn Jones tried? He got thrown around like a rag doll! When the lightest player on both sides comes on to win his first cap and shows more dog in the contact area there is something seriously wrong.

I called for us to send a second string out ahead of this tour.....perhaps that second string will actually end up being first choice when the dust settles

Jenkins - in the side for his round the field work, totally anonymous yesterday
Owens - did ok but not great
Jones -subbed after 30 should never have started
Wyn Jones - read above
Charteris - even worse
Lydiate - Anonymous
Shingler - Anonymous
Faletau - looks jaded

The pack went into their shells ad were trully bullied no one putting their hand up to carry, missed hibbard massively!

Phillips - well documented
Biggar - good decision making re drop goals and defended fairly well
North - wasnt up to it shouldnt have started
Roberts - didnt look fit
Davies - worst performance I have seen from him
Cuthbert - took his try well
Williams - Outgunned in air

Side for next week (with a rocket up their back side)

James
Owens
Lee
Ball
Evans
Lydiate
Turnball
Faletau
Davies
Biggar
North
Roberts
Davies
Cuthbert
Morgan

I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

I must admit, the intensity in the contact area was severely lacking from Wales in the match, and it surprised me.

Cuthbert and North are both very good on attack, but South Africa managed to turn them around a number of times with kicks and their positional play lacked.

Davies never really managed to get ball in space and apart from the first attacking move by Wales they never really found much space for the rest of the match.

Considering the players that was selected for the match I really thought they will be a much tougher challenge.

If the Boks do manage to click in the next test and Wales doesn't lift their intensity it could get much uglier

Scratch wrote:I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

Mate it ain't the players who are the problem it's the tactics that have been proven many times not to work vs SH teams. Gatland is like a WW1 general, persistent little bar steward.

Lol  

Scrumpy wrote:

Scratch wrote:I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

Mate it ain't the players who are the problem it's the tactics that have been proven many times not to work vs SH teams. Gatland is like a WW1 general, persistent little bar steward.

Lol  

yes tactics are what will stop us from beating the top teams I agree with you,

but rugby is a contact sport and although technique is important mostly it is about aggression, heart and desire, the first xv had none yesterday and looked intimidated. You can't blame Gatland for that (you could for picking them but there weren't too many arguments with the selection)

So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

Scrumpy wrote:

Scratch wrote:I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

Mate it ain't the players who are the problem it's the tactics that have been proven many times not to work vs SH teams. Gatland is like a WW1 general, persistent little bar steward.

Lol  

We were here back in 2010. Gatland threw the kids in last minute for the '11 RWC after an abject 6N after years of ping pong rugby that never worked. Those kids dug him out of a hole and have gone on to great success. However the limited tactics are once again found out. I keep saying this and it's the best blydi mantra in rugby - "It's a thinking game, it's a thinking game, it's a thinking game." That is an alien philosophy to Gatland. Those players are conforming to his gameplan. They do not change things when it's obvious the tactics dont work. They dont even change the tactics for the next match! They keep trying and trying and getting nowhere (against the top 4/5 at least). Witness all the talk of mistakes costing Wales. Nonsense.

Anyway how's this for an experimental XV for the next test?

Steve Shingler
Jordan Williams
Johnathan Davies
James Hook
George North
Mathew Morgan
Gareth Davies

Dan Baker
Josh Turnbull
Toby Faletau
Alun Wyn Jones
Jake Ball
Samson Lee
Ken Owens
Paul James

bedfordwelsh wrote:So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

To late now. I'd just fit him with a shock collar that went off every time he thought of garryowens or crash ball. I'd also deduct £10k from his wages every time Wales conceed a turnover.  

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

To late now. I'd just fit him with a shock collar that went off every time he thought of garryowens or crash ball. I'd also deduct £10k from his wages every time Wales conceed a turnover.  

lol, I have never been convinced by Howley so there is time to change his back up staff if they wanted.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Scratch wrote:I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

Mate it ain't the players who are the problem it's the tactics that have been proven many times not to work vs SH teams. Gatland is like a WW1 general, persistent little bar steward.

Lol  

We were here back in 2010. Gatland threw the kids in last minute for the '11 RWC after an abject 6N after years of ping pong rugby that never worked. Those kids dug him out of a hole and have gone on to great success. However the limited tactics are once again found out. I keep saying this and it's the best blydi mantra in rugby - "It's a thinking game, it's a thinking game, it's a thinking game." That is an alien philosophy to Gatland. Those players are conforming to his gameplan. They do not change things when it's obvious the tactics dont work. They dont even change the tactics for the next match! They keep trying and trying and getting nowhere (against the top 4/5 at least). Witness all the talk of mistakes costing Wales. Nonsense.

Anyway how's this for an experimental XV for the next test?

Steve Shingler
Jordan Williams
Johnathan Davies
James Hook
George North
Mathew Morgan
Gareth Davies

Dan Baker
Josh Turnbull
Toby Faletau
Alun Wyn Jones
Jake Ball
Samson Lee
Ken Owens
Paul James

Stick Cory Allen in for Hook and yeah why not lol, though again why drop Cuthbert rather than North?

bedfordwelsh wrote:So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

I don't think you need to, but you need some new ideas against these SH guys.
I'm sure Gatland can come up with something.

Scrumpy,

I think he is the man to take us to the WC but we all knew it was ludicrous extending his contract, I do though think we need to shake the backroom staff up.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Scratch wrote:I say give the youngsters their head, they are the only players bar Faletau who have shown themselves to be up to a fight, Jenkins, Jones, AWJ even, Charteris, Lydfiate, Philipps, Cuthbert, L Williams, all should be dropped. They have their feet so far under the table their snouts are cemented in the trough. I want to see G Davies, Lee , Ball, Baker, Morgan given the opportunity that the incumbents no longer deserve.

Mate it ain't the players who are the problem it's the tactics that have been proven many times not to work vs SH teams. Gatland is like a WW1 general, persistent little bar steward.

Lol  

We were here back in 2010. Gatland threw the kids in last minute for the '11 RWC after an abject 6N after years of ping pong rugby that never worked. Those kids dug him out of a hole and have gone on to great success. However the limited tactics are once again found out. I keep saying this and it's the best blydi mantra in rugby - "It's a thinking game, it's a thinking game, it's a thinking game." That is an alien philosophy to Gatland. Those players are conforming to his gameplan. They do not change things when it's obvious the tactics dont work. They dont even change the tactics for the next match! They keep trying and trying and getting nowhere (against the top 4/5 at least). Witness all the talk of mistakes costing Wales. Nonsense.

Anyway how's this for an experimental XV for the next test?

Steve Shingler
Jordan Williams
Johnathan Davies
James Hook
George North
Mathew Morgan
Gareth Davies

Dan Baker
Josh Turnbull
Toby Faletau
Alun Wyn Jones
Jake Ball
Samson Lee
Ken Owens
Paul James

I think the backline is too much of a change and we'll end up playing like the possibles with no structure. Not that those players aren't capable, I would like to see Allen and Davies in the centre with Morgan at fullback and Jordan on the wing in place of North who I don't think is actually fit.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

To late now. I'd just fit him with a shock collar that went off every time he thought of garryowens or crash ball. I'd also deduct £10k from his wages every time Wales conceed a turnover.  

lol, I have never been convinced by Howley so there is time to change his back up staff if they wanted.

Yes I would freshen up the coaching staff under Gatland - Danny Wilson in for Mcbryde, really don't know who would bring in for backs

Biggar deserves to keep his place. let him have a chance with better service from gareth davies. why give it to hook, who has had the 10 shirt taken off him because he can only play off the cuff , always looks like something will happen but usually ends in turn over or holding on because he's isolated. hook is utility. and old news.
Biggar is one of the young guys. why would you put a failed 10 back in charge.!!!!!!!!!!! yes the bench looked lively, but come on tell it like it is guys, the bench did what they were supposed to do,you would expect them to be sharp.  gareth davies to start with biggar. still not sure about morgan to start, he was lively but was still chopped by a couple of SA's who were shattered. he may find starting at this level a step too far at the moment
.Cuthbert scores, but is dire in defence. why hasn't this been sorted with him. How many games now have we seen sides score identical tries against him. and what happened to wings coming in to the play, north was very poor at looking for work.
what about morgan on the wing and north in the centre ?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

IronMike wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:It's just frustrating more that anything. Same old Poopie, high balls after nearly every scrum, attack down the blindside most of the time, slow ball, no attack all the same old. If Gatland is going to be this stubborn and ignorant about changing his game plan which nearly everyone knows except him then he shouldn't be head coach for the next six nations, never mind the world cup in 2019.
I don't put all the blames on Gatland because the players just had nothing in them, no fight, no care and no pride.
We are no longer an attacking force in the scrum (for a matter of fact no international rugby team is consistently with the new scrum laws).
The only players who even looked to be trying were Alyn Wyn, Gethin and Dan Biggar.

The team who has to start on are:
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee (was great and physical when he came on)
4. Alyn Wyn Jones
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Toby Falateu
8. Dan Baker (still don't understand why he wasn't at least on the bench)

9. Gareth Davies (Gatland would be stupid not to)
10. Dan Biggar (but needs to cut down on the high balls)
11. Jordan Williams
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. George North
15. Liam Williams

16. Matthew Rees, 17. Paul James, 18. Adam Jones, 19. Jake Ball, 20. Josh Turnball, 21. Rhodri Williams, 22. James Hook, 23. Matthew Morgan

We need ball in hand to attack because they have great players in the air when we kick it away could be seen yesterday. I don't expect  anything though because overall it just looks like the team don't have it in them at the moment.

We can all hope but I think Gatland knows his starting 15 for the World Cup and its not going to be very different to the one on Saturday, Warburton and Tipuric ahead of Turnbull and Shingler

JH,

Why drop Jones and not Jenkins I thought he struggled more and James is the better scrummager, likewise why drop Cuthbert and not North.  North should have hammered Hendricks into touch when he scored and I honestly don't think North would have scored that try I think he would have chipped ahead rather than backed himself.

SS,

Agree Li Williams had a poor game as did Roberts so maybe Morgan could start at XV, I wouldn't be upset if he did and I think Cory Allen should be involved as he brings something different.

But why do you thinks Gethin was off the past. How you can say he struggled more than Adam Jones (who was walking after 5 minutes) is beyond me. Gethin put in a descent shift, by no means great but he was the only player competing at out break down and made 2 turnovers one a few meters out form our line. And this idea that Paul James is such a great scrummager is also anonymous to me; yes he is a good scrummager i'm not saying he isn't but is he that much better than Gethin Jenkins? no it the easy answer. Gethin has come under criticism for the penalties he has conceded but you look at Paul James and his record and it isn't much better. Numerous times he has been penalised. Just look back tot the mid week games and this years Amlin final to see that. If Paul does start and tears up the scrum I will happily eat my words but he has never proven to be a scrummaging force at scrum time at international level and Gethin has.
As for Cuthbert, he isn't consistent enough for me, his defense is not good enough which was proven when there was a 3 on 2 defending situation and he didn't keep on his man, drifted in to where two players had already marked i think it was le roux and then allowed the other attacker to go outside him. That shouldn't; happen when there are 3 defender and 2 attackers especially not at international level; he has been criticized in the past for it and it was evident again yesterday.
No north wasn't himself but did he have a chance to shine with ball in hand, he wasn't going to be 100% after this week either. Dropping our best attacking back would be a poor choice and won' happen.

i dont know whether it was just a bad day at the office, but north, cuthbert and liam "filthy" williams all looked really poor at defending the chip through. several times.

would imagine that this will have been noticed by all other international coaches watching.

Still to see an 80 min display from this Bok team under HM, or a game where all components are working well. However there has been a steady improvement which is positive especially considering the players to come in. They will not be lacking motivation as team places are tough to keep with the available depth....or if any of the squad caught Hibbard's article on walesonline today...what a dumbass

bedfordwelsh wrote:Scrumpy,

I think he is the man to take us to the WC but we all knew it was ludicrous extending his contract, I do though think we need to shake the backroom staff up.

Can Gatland take us forward…..last won a SH game in 2008 and that was all Shane really……Gatland cannot keep banging his head against the wall, problem is a version of his tactics won a lions tour but, you need a dominant tight 5 and Wales tight 5 was anonymous last weekend

bedfordwelsh wrote:So who would people bring in 18 months out from a WC if they think Gatland and Co are past sell by date.

Yes, I think that's the key point, isn't it? It would have taken a truly catastrophic series of defeats by lower ranked teams to actually remove Gatland this close to the game's top tournament. The problem is the opportunity cost of not trading up to a different coach. Wales would probably get a world renowned coach given their players and ranking, but (a) will they be available so close to a RWC and (b) would a completely new gameplan be worse than persevering with what they've got.

What Wales have is good enough to get to a semi-final.

Gatland and co are stuck in Groupthink, they are obsessed with a certain tactic because against the NH it has been very very successful.

Problem is they think that , playing the odds, they will come good this way down under eventually.

With our tight 5 and 9 they won't.

Shane was always the outlier in the welsh squad because he bucked the big balls trend, and since he has gone and gatland has abandoned hi tempo offload, we have become stodgy, predictable and lacking innovation, behind an impotent tight 5 and a turgid 9.

If he is smart Gatland will ring changes because post game platitudes no longer wash.

Morgan and Davies must become the core of a side that mixes bosh with gosh.

Gatland will go post RWC.

Brian Moore in the Telegraph:

If the New Zealand odyssey has yielded some comfort for Lancaster the same cannot be said for Warren Gatland and Wales’s 38-16 defeat against South Africa in Durban over the weekend.

Lacklustre and uninventive, the Welsh never looked remotely like breaking their now extensive run of losses against southern hemisphere opponents and some are now beginning to ask whether Gatland has gone as far as he can with Wales.

To pose the question is to commit a form of heresy to many and yet this point comes in every coach/team relationship and is not necessarily a bad reflection on either.

Gatland does not have to prove he is a top-class coach; three Grand Slams and a series win with the British and Irish Lions incontrovertibly prove that. But Warrenball, or whatever nomenclature you choose to apply to Wales’s style of play, is now looking tired and predictable.

At its highest it is a strategy based on power and directness but too often the required physical subjugation of opponents and domination of the gain line is not achieved by the Welsh. That being so you have to ask reluctantly whether a new approach all round is needed.