Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

McIlwaine to Leeds seems likely - the clear out continues.

To clarify McComb and McCormish have another year to run on their contracts so the will not be going till 2015

so that's Porter, Macklin, McKinney, McIlwaine away
Cochrane will be if he isn't already
McAllister seems likely to get some game time
Wallace to retire
Ross I will be surprised if he stays - may be  more year
McComb and McCormish 1 more year unless they get a contract elsewhere for next year

That thinning of the squad means some of the younger lads will need to step up next year - I think that is a good thing

geoff998rugby wrote:That thinning of the squad means some of the younger lads will need to step up next year - I think that is a good thing

Except it happens every year! The lads who are leaving are the young lads who we were saying would need to step up once x and y left a year or two ago. We still are failing to generate depth, and we are still letting more players leave than we sign every season, and a lot of the guys coming through the Academy are consistently failing to make an impression.

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:That thinning of the squad means some of the younger lads will need to step up next year - I think that is a good thing

Except it happens every year! The lads who are leaving are the young lads who we were saying would need to step up once x and y left a year or two ago. We still are failing to generate depth, and we are still letting more players leave than we sign every season, and a lot of the guys coming through the Academy are consistently failing to make an impression.

It seems to me that Ulster are aware that the fringe and young players can't get enough decent experience to help them improve with the current setup. They perhaps even encourage them over to these english sides knowing that most NI folk will look to come back at some point if the chance arises. UR I expect keep a tight eye on those who go, and look to see who steps up.

Problem is, it doesn't seem to work. We now have a handful of players who left to get experience and then came back and were still found wanting.

But lets be fair, we don't need a new 19 yr old superstar every season. The squad would get too competitive too quickly.

Stuart McCloskey is this years stand out. Olding, last years. Henderson, Jackson, Marshall, the year before. Scholes couldn't be describes as a 'stand out' yet, but looks promising.

I think the development in the forwards is worse than the backs in fairness.

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:That thinning of the squad means some of the younger lads will need to step up next year - I think that is a good thing

Except it happens every year! The lads who are leaving are the young lads who we were saying would need to step up once x and y left a year or two ago. We still are failing to generate depth, and we are still letting more players leave than we sign every season, and a lot of the guys coming through the Academy are consistently failing to make an impression.

Not sure that is true - this is a far bigger clear out than previously .

Also there seems to be a deliberate decision to ditch players who the club do not think are good enough.
Previously we have kept such players a cover.
It seems to me they have decided playing a kid is better than playing a journeyman.

I see I missed out Farrell who is away as well - so that makes 9 this year and 2 next.
That is some clear out - especially when you add Muller and Afoa leaving

But we're looking very light in some positions though.

PROPS; Herbst, Fitzpatrick, Lutton, Black, Murphy, McCall
HOOKERS; Best, Herring, Paul Jackson/Jonny Murphy/John Andrew
LOCKS; Tuohy, Stevenson, Henderson, McComb, TBC
BACKROW; Ferris, Diack, Henry, Doyle, McComish, Wilson, Williams
SCRUMHALF; Pienaar, Marshall, Heaney
OUTHALF; Paddy Jackson, Humphreys (tbc), O'Hagan (tbc)
CENTRES; Marshall, Olding, McCloskey, Cave
WINGS; Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Scholes
FULLBACK; Payne, Nelson, Andrew

Thats it for the outside backs- only 11 in total, the only other back in the Academy is the wee 9 Shanahan. Surely we must be signing one or two more outside backs? Next year Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Bowe and Payne could all be on international duty at the same time! We would be caught seriously short... Only one specialist outside centre although Payne can certainly cover that position.

If we sign any backs they will be Irishmen

I think we will see more of O'Connor in the 2nd row and some appearances for Joyce, Dow and Taggart in the backrow.

After Scholes, McCloskey, Shanahan and Nelson I do not see any backs likely to come through next year

Thats what worries me. It's not like the U20s are packed full of promising Ulster backs...

The U20's selection is different altogether though Notch. Ruddock tends to go with who he knows a lot. McCloskey wasn't selected last year and he has looked very useful in his limited Pro12 appearances to date. Olding wasn't first choice in his first year either and within 12 months of that JRWC he was a capped international.

I would be more pleased if we could see some progress between 4-10

So... hands up who is shatting themselves?

a) we need Pienaar and Best so so so bad
b) we need to forget about Ferris for QF - anonymous
c) are Heaney and Marshall competing for 2nd choice? It feels like a race to be 3rd at times...
d) Take what Trimble is drinking, and give it to the rest in buckets.

But hey, maybe we needed to get our classic ulster nervy game out of our system the week before? Wishful thinking?

Our scrum-halfs are so, so inept. They both blew near certain tries just with Poopie passes and errors. How can you train with Pienaar and be that bad at your main job?

Porter or Shanahan for the bench, cross everything that Pienaar can play 80 minutes. Drop Rob Herring altogether, Annett to the bench. Drop Ferris and Williams and get some back rows who are interested in hitting rucks. Henderson to start.

Court Best Afoa
Muller Henderson
Diack Wilson Henry
Pienaar Jackson
Marshall Cave
Trimble Payne Bowe

Annett Warwick Lutton Tuohy Doyle Williams Porter Gilroy

If we don't clear the ruck better next week and Saracens do us a the breakdown again serious questions need to be asked about the coaching team. Exactly the same issues over winning our own ball a year on from where Saracens embarrassed us last year. Once again we pick an unbalanced back row- what did Ferris or Williams contribute in terms of securing our own ruck ball? And none of the back line look interested either. All standing out waiting for the ball to come out to them instead of winning the damn thing. Our ball security is shocking and thats a coaching issue.

Game tonight showed that Tuohy and Ferris shouldn't start, Henderson and Diack must start. That was a heavy Blues pack but Ulster must defend rolling mauls better than that.

Doyle keeps to impress.

Oh oh.
what's going on here..the Munster lads put over 100 on Cardiff...

For the record, I've heard wee p is unhappy. He feels he's getting pushed down the pecking order, and he was offered a move but chose to stay at Ulster. His missus is expecting, and they just bought a house. He feels that he may be trapped at a club that doesn't rate him with little gametime to hope for.

Sometimes, I'm not saying its the case, but making it obvious to two players that they are in direct competition for a bench spot - it can create more nerves and therefore flawed performances for both rather than any expected improvement.

To be fair, as bad as both the 9s were, they had absolutely no help from their pack who were utterly pathetic.

Secondly, I think its fair to say that Cardiff were told to make Heaneys life difficult. He got a few hard late hits. Had very little time, and as Rory says, no protection from the pack.

Agreed totally Diack and Henderson must start.

Other than Trimble the minds were on Saracens - a disgraceful first half.
14 men should hang their head in shame.

Poor form is a big worry.
Some players are giving serious cause for concern.

Afoa going through the motions
Herring would not make the bench for me - his darts have been a utter joke for 3 weeks now.
Muller I think is physically not up to it anymore
Williams just isn't delivering - more like a show pony
Ferris isn't ready
Heaney is not  great but Marshall is a mess, I would be investing a lot of time developing Shanahan.
At least Heaney has a excuse - he got no protection from his backrow
Payne has droped off form significantly

The only positives were Trimble, Warwick and no injuries

I agree with Notchs team except Heaney for Porter

Very worried - usually 1 QF is an away win - the form we are in I reckon we are favourites to be the 1 home loser    

clivemcl wrote:For the record, I've heard wee p is unhappy. He feels he's getting pushed down the pecking order, and he was offered a move but chose to stay at Ulster. His missus is expecting, and they just bought a house. He feels that he may be trapped at a club that doesn't rate him with little gametime to hope for.

Sometimes, I'm not saying its the case, but making it obvious to two players that they are in direct competition for a bench spot - it can create more nerves and therefore flawed performances for both rather than any expected improvement.

He is going down the order because he is playing crap.
The solution lies in his own hands - stay focused and improve.
We cannot afford to carry passengers.
To be honest he has an extended contract but if he doesn't improve Ulster would be prepared to let him go.

His head is in the wrong place - he is the one who can fix that no one else.

Notch wrote:But we're looking very light in some positions though.

PROPS; Herbst, Fitzpatrick, Lutton, Black, Murphy, McCall
HOOKERS; Best, Herring, Paul Jackson/Jonny Murphy/John Andrew
LOCKS; Tuohy, Stevenson, Henderson, McComb, TBC
BACKROW; Ferris, Diack, Henry, Doyle, McComish, Wilson, Williams
SCRUMHALF; Pienaar, Marshall, Heaney
OUTHALF; Paddy Jackson, Humphreys (tbc), O'Hagan (tbc)
CENTRES; Marshall, Olding, McCloskey, Cave
WINGS; Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Scholes
FULLBACK; Payne, Nelson, Andrew

Thats it for the outside backs- only 11 in total, the only other back in the Academy is the wee 9 Shanahan. Surely we must be signing one or two more outside backs? Next year Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Bowe and Payne could all be on international duty at the same time! We would be caught seriously short... Only one specialist outside centre although Payne can certainly cover that position.

One player missing is Michael Allen

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed totally Diack and Henderson must start.

Other than Trimble the minds were on Saracens - a disgraceful first half.
14 men should hang their head in shame.

I have to say, Luke Marshall was also impressive in both attack and defence. I would throw him in with Trimble.

He impressed me in the 2nd half but not in the 1st

If I could offer one slight positive. We did punch holes.

Just that we swiftly cocked up thereafter.

Also, the punching of said holes will not be so easy versus Saracens.

Luke Marshall NEVER fails to make ground.

Nick Williams did look better in terms of his ball carrying, but we all know theres lots more vital aspects of his game which are not up to scratch right now.

I just REALLY hope that these players are keeping it all for the QF, rather than it being an indicator of form.


Also, Bowe completely ruined a try scoring opportunity. I think he could have made the pass to Trimble out wide. Even if Trimble was covered, a kick for him to chase would have had him in for the try. Shocking.

One of several straight forward try chances we butchered.

The thing is, none of these are new problems. They go back to the very start of Anscombes time here. There are just too many matches where we've had all those problems and still won. We still should have won last night on the balance of play. So a year and a half ago I was very positive about it- we're making loads of unforced errors, we struggle to secure our ruck ball and we're still winning. But we haven't improved at all. I think if we go out of the Heineken Cup next week, we have to look at new coaching combinations. Even if we don't, if we don't win something this year I think we need new ideas on the coaching panel anyway.

just checked back on our form - 2 decent halves in the last 5 games - that is worryingly poor.

Some happened last year and we all know what happen in the QF last year.

You cant turn form on and off - I honestly would put my money on Saracens next week.

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed totally Diack and Henderson must start.

Other than Trimble the minds were on Saracens - a disgraceful first half.
14 men should hang their head in shame.

Poor form is a big worry.
Some players are giving serious cause for concern.

Afoa going through the motions
Herring would not make the bench for me - his darts have been a utter joke for 3 weeks now.
Muller I think is physically not up to it anymore
Williams just isn't delivering - more like a show pony
Ferris isn't ready
Heaney is not  great but Marshall is a mess, I would be investing a lot of time developing Shanahan.
At least Heaney has a excuse - he got no protection from his backrow
Payne has droped off form significantly

Agree with most of that Geoff - I'd add Henry to the positives list alongside Trimble though.

Afoa was a disgrace to be honest - looks like a guy with his bags already packed. The rest of the front 5 weren't too far behind.

I thought Marshall was a big improvement on Heaney - who's service was pretty awful. Doesn't look anywhere near the level required.

No leadership - zero effort. Saracens will destroy us if we play like that but maybe this is the kick up the backside we need at this stage of the season

Notch wrote:One of several straight forward try chances we butchered.

The thing is, none of these are new problems. They go back to the very start of Anscombes time here. There are just too many matches where we've had all those problems and still won. We still should have won last night on the balance of play. So a year and a half ago I was very positive about it- we're making loads of unforced errors, we struggle to secure our ruck ball and we're still winning. But we haven't improved at all. I think if we go out of the Heineken Cup next week, we have to look at new coaching combinations. Even if we don't, if we don't win something this year I think we need new ideas on the coaching panel anyway.

Yeah I'm beginning to have real doubts about the coaching panel. I think initially we did show real improvements under Anscombe with regards are attacking play, squad rotation and consistency. However tactically we've been found out a few times and the scrum and forward play seems to be on a downward trajectory.

When the offload game isn't functioning there doesn't seem to be a plan B and we are too reliant on Pienaar and Payne to get us out of jail in games with individual brilliance.

I fear Saracens will look at us and realise that if they can shut those two down and get on top in the pack then we will struggle.

Just saw 'lowlights' of the Blues game. Not an Ulster side that I recognised, really.

I agree that breakdown is something to be worried about against Sarries. They've bossed it in their last 2 games against Wasps and Quins - between Wray, Joubert, Brown and Burger, they snaffle up pretty much everything and guys like Brits always seem to force 1-2 turnovers per game by themselves.

TO be fair to Ulster, there were 3 problems with this game for them:

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1. I think a lot of the problemss against the Blues in terms of the back row/ruck area can be put down to our 7, Josh Navidi. He's been in top form all season and it's criminal that he gets shunted to 6 when Warburton is injury free. He really is one for the future and when our pack were going forward (for the first time this season) he could turn over ball or disrupt the ruck as much as he liked. I believe he adds much more to our team when he's at 7 than Warburton does when he starts.

2. On ScrumV they showed when the blues went on that 40m driving maul and there was an Ulster prop at the beginning of the line out (Court?) who didn't get in to stop the maul from the start. He just stood on the fringes and watched. Now, for me, if you're a fatty in the front row you should be in every driving maul from a line out, defending or attacking. He only got involved once the maul started going and was too late by then.

3. They scored their try very early on and just switched off. Probably thought it was going to be a walkover (like usual!) but the Blues actually showed some heart for a change. They got better in the second half but the Blues had just a bit more in the tank for a defensive effort worthy to seal the win.

I thought Jarrod (O')Payne looked decent at times and Trimble was consistantly good as he always is and looked dangerous when he had the ball.

Navidi was the best player on the pitch -brilliant from him, Copeland wasn't far behind. Generally our pack to a man were beasted.

Navidi was very good - there's something about him as a player that reminds me of Richard Parks.

I don't blame the coaches at all for the performance. If players can't be bothered to support the ruck the ball is going to be turned over. The Ulster pack (especially) were running scared of an injury, so there was no commitment to get stuck into the fray. The only culpability on the coaches is selecting the team they did, but then what were they supposed to do - put out a Ravens side?

Tom Court was the one player that Ulster couldn't afford to get injured in that game, because there is no experienced backup, so it's understandable that he was maybe even under instruction to have a bit of a soft ride in the game. Herring and Afoa had no such excuse.

The (lack of) participation by the rest of the pack was also hopeless but not serious. Muller wasn't going to risk facing Saracens unfit (as he did last year), as he desperately wants Ulster to win something this year. This was also Tuohy's first game back, so he was never going to be up to match speed. That was also the first time the starting backrow played together this season so rustiness was bound to be in evidence.

In the backs my biggest criticism is of the Scrum Halfs. Heaney looks to be both short of pace and has a lack of urgency in his pass and thought process. Marshall was better when he came on but not great either - a big squad problem. Bowe was especially disappointing too as a senior player who should have been assuming more responsibility.

Its easy to overreact because we were so abject but im not getting too carried away with it. We will see what happens this weekend. Its a very good sarries team and if Anscombe can negotiate that we could be on for a great season. Scrum half is a serious worry but i believe that pack will front up this week. Whether that's enough remains to be seen.

for the record i would start Henderson in the row and Diack at 6 with Wilson at 8. Ferris wouldn't make my 23. More important for him to just keep getting his fitness back

We still have business of Ferris' contract to tie up as well I just realised!

Hardly a problem he wont be going anywhere

geoff998rugby wrote:Hardly a problem he wont be going anywhere

I just wondered if he would disagree with staff if he were not given the HC bench spot at least? Perhaps that would be enough for him to at least answer a few phone calls out of interests sake.

But I'd hope he has loyalty to us now since we were so patient and accommodating to him.

Here's something though - Ferris came back with a bang. Perhaps he then started thinking about the possibility of starting the QF and has therefore held back a little in the past two games out of fear of getting injured again?

Ferris has not shone simply because he is not yet up to the sharpness required.
He should not start the game and its, at least, debateable if he should even be on the bench.

As for going elsewhere - no chance.
If he did after the support Ulster and IRFB have given him in the last year - he would be burning his bridges re playing for Ireland again. They would be apopletic (sp?)
To be fair I dont think he has any desire other than to play for Ulster

I don't think Ferris would even pass a medical anywhere else even if he wanted to leave. I'm pretty sure he appreciates the support Ulster and the IRFU have given him as his career would have been over anywhere else.

Personally I wouldn't have him in the 23 for Saracens, assuming Roger Wilson is fit. I think Ferris is a good bit off that level.

I don't think I can say anything about the match at the weekend that hasn't been said.
Cardiff were a much more savage and muscular beast than we thought we'd be facing, Ulster were just about ticking over, one eye on the Sarries match and the fact we'd scored so early. The mindset suddenly turning to thoughts that it was going to be an easy win so lets take it easy and not get injured.
I don't know and can only guess, perhaps we were a little shocked at what Cardiff brought to the table somewhat akin to how the All Blacks were shocked at the Aviva. We just didn't reply as well as the ABs, not far off though.

Anyway, if it means we have to play an away semi then so be it, they are always tough be they home or away.

Lets get behind the lads now safe in the knowledge that complacency will now be drilled out of them for saturday's big push.

Saturday's game could well be a blessing in desguise at the end of the day, better that than a 50 points rout like last year in Cardiff.

Also i remember last year they played Leinster and particularly defended in the last 5 minutes as if it was the match of the year, i wasn't surprised to see the players missing that bit extra freshness the next week.

I can't believe some on the UAFC are questionning Diack's abilities, he carries very well he is a good lineout operator and he is great at the breakdown which is exactly what you need against Saracens.

Diack has been Ulster's player of the season so far.

Just got some news

Found out why Fitzpatrick not playing.
Basically Anscombe is not a fan - he is fit for selection

Also what about this as a 4-8 - Henderson, Diack, Ferris, Wilson, Henry
Before you say I'm nuts that is the suggestion of a forward in the full squad.
Interesting that someone in the camp comes up with that.
Reckons Muller is struggling and Ferris would rise to the occassion.

Dont believe that Muller wont play but if that view is general Ferris may well start

If Muller was out that would work for me because Diack will do more at the breakdown, even at lock. Don't see Ferris lasting long into the second half though.

But if Anscombe won't pick Fitzpatrick we need to sign another tightened prop... I think this is foolish, Fitzpatrick has surprised his doubters and risen to the occasion in big one-off games before. Ulster vs Stade Francais when Botha was missing, Ulster vs Edinburgh when Afoa was missing, Ireland vs New Zealand when Ross was out etc. All big performances from him in important games. I would definitely want him involved next week if he's fit.

rodders wrote:Diack has been Ulster's player of the season so far.

Agreed.

geoff998rugby wrote:Just got some news

Found out why Fitzpatrick not playing.
Basically Anscombe is not a fan - he is fit for selection

Also what about this as a 4-8 - Henderson, Diack, Ferris, Wilson, Henry
Before you say I'm nuts that is the suggestion of a forward in the full squad.
Interesting that someone in the camp comes up with that.
Reckons Muller is struggling and Ferris would rise to the occassion.

Dont believe that Muller wont play but if that view is general Ferris may well start

This is some bad news, Fitzpatrick is a better scrummager than Lutton will ever be and as for starting 2 blindside in the row, well there is an argument for Henderson to play there but i don't think he has learned the role sufficiently to start such an important game.

Said player was unimpressed by Tuohy.

I would suggest that Hendo and Muller - with Tulohy coming on for 30 mins
If Ferris involved it will be a 6-2 split

I wonder why Anscombe isn't a Fitz fan. Is it something personal? I know there are a number of backroom personnel who don't get on with Anscombe at all to the extent of there being a full on mutual dislike. Fitz is definately a good enough player and has fitted into the Ulster mould easily before. That leaves personal reasons and they should never transfer to team selection but we all know they do unfortunately.

Absolutely - look at Diack.

Him and McLoughlin hardly spoke and his form nosed dived.
He has been a player transformed under Anscombe.

At least nobody in the Ulster team did this... prepare to cringe!

https://vine.co/v/MemDEBjIaBF

The stats tell an interesting story - for the criticism he has had, Williams actually made more tackles than anyone apart from Luke Marshall.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191517.html

clivemcl wrote:At least nobody in the Ulster team did this... prepare to cringe!

https://vine.co/v/MemDEBjIaBF

I saw that one Clive, please, please, please let Chris Ashton do that against us, it would be my dream come true.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The stats tell an interesting story - for the criticism he has had, Williams actually made more tackles than anyone apart from Luke Marshall.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191517.html

Stats must be taken in context - and they hide as much as they show i.e. where are the stats about losing the ball in contact, losing control of the ball at the base of the scrum, crooked throws, not all tackles are the same, kicking straight into touch etc etc
Reading that Payne was nearly as good as Trimble ...yer right

Geoff, any substance to the rumours that we have another prop yet to be signed?