Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

geoff998rugby wrote:
However to claim we are simply unable to retain players is way too simplistic

No one is claiming that is the start and end of our depth issues but its part of the overall jigsaw.

The top teams all have strong squads, Whitten is a squad man at Exeter - is it not better he's a squad man with us or are Exeter a bigger club than us?

It would be but when he left us we only played him on the wing he gets game time in the centre for Exeter.
At the time we were overflowing with centres - even Nev had to play on the wing.

He was a lot further down the pecking order here than he is at Exeter.
Given the tragedy of Nevin Spence death and Paddy Wallace, effective,retirement, he would be useful but that is being wise after the event.

The reality is we do not offer squad player meaningful playing time, if they are not in the 23, and at heart I think that is the core of the issue.

geoff998rugby wrote:None of the players mentioned would make out first XV and it comes back to the big issue I mentioned before

Our clubs are poor and do not offer players the level of game that leading Leinster and Munster clubs do.
Understandably players realise that to improve they need to leave because Dungannon, Ballymena, Malone, Belfast Harlequins etc are not very good.

Some of those players wanted to stay but were, effectively kicked out by the coaches of the day.
D'Arcy and Faloon come to mind on that score

Of the players leaving this year I agree Annett is a loss, Farrell has been over taken by McCloskey and McAllister needs to go because he needs to play some games at a level higher than our AIB teams can provide.

Not saying all is fine, far from it - our Academy and our club game need to improve big time, and some coaching decisions leave a lot to be desired - McLoughlin staying would have lost us Diack and Anscombe could lose us Fitzpatrick.

However to claim we are simply unable to retain players is way too simplistic

I'm not claiming these players would make our first XV, but how many times in the season do we name our first XV entirely? Injuries, rotation and international call-ups mean you need as good a second XV as a first XV.

Adam D'Arcy is better than McIlwaine
Tommy Seymour is better than Scholes and in my opinion Gilroy
Ryan Caldwell is better than McComb or Stevenson
Willie Faloon is better than McComish
Ian Whitten is better than McCloskey or Michael Allen

The fact that we've had players who want to stay but have been forced out is all well and good... if it turns out we get better options. Now we're going to be desperate to sign someone like Faloon, but would Faloon come back after the way he was treated even if he wasn't under contract for another two years? Now it seems like Fitzpatrick is going the same way, going to be forced out of the club despite being a really useful squad player.

The complaints about our club sides and our Academy are well founded. But there are a number of decent Ulster players playing their rugby elsewhere who have been really badly mismanaged. Had we been able to retain them we would have a much better squad, even if they aren't in the first XV for the Heineken Cup. Given the problems we have bringing players through you would think that we could have retained the likes of Faloon, Caldwell and Whitten and worked to mould them into better players instead of discarding them right away- if the coaches we have and have had are good enough to do that...

Very unfair on McCloskey and Scholes and Gilroy with those assessments.
Those guys have the potential to be better than the ones you are comparing them with

Also do you think Whitten would stay on McCloskey or Scholes salaries
Do you think Caldwell would stay on McComb salary
Not a chance on either count.


Caldwell was a mess when he left - the reason for that can be debated.

Seymour left because he could get something we could not provide a stab at International rugby
As for McIlwaine being here and Faloon leaving and D'Arcy leaving blame Anscombe and McLoughlin.
If it was up to Faloon and D'Arcy they would still be here

I do think we are getting nearer to an understanding though - it is not a case of players wanting to leave it is a case of poor coaching forcing them out.

14 players left in total frustration in 2006 because of the mess the team was in.
I have to say some of those revered as Ulster stars at the time are in large part to blame.
There was an arrogance about some of the 1st XV at the time that was unbelievable - up and coming players were treated very badly.
Thankfully that is long gone but I do agree mis management of players remains

The problem is that mismanagement seems to be continuing. We're seeing Fitzpatrick frozen out in favour of a player who isn't as strong a scrummager as him, and possibly he'll be pushed down to 4th place in the pecking order when Dave Ryan comes. Dave Ryan will hopefully be a solid enough option of called upon but he's been far from outstanding so far in his career.

We complain about how hard it is to find Irish tight heads and we are on the verge of forcing one who has been with us for nearly a decade out of the club for reasons I don't understand. Another guy who could be a very good squad player left out in the cold. No, he's not an outstanding world class player but he can do a job and we need players like that as well.

If this trend continues we'll probably not win anything because although we'll have a good few outstanding players in our first XV, by the end of every season half of them will be on the injury list due to the fact the understudies are not trusted enough to step in and our lack of depth means we can't rotate. Thats what happened to us around this time last year, and it could happen again this year.

Munster and Leinster have nothing over our strongest XV if we can get them all fit and on the pitch at the same time but they can rotate their squad and keep their players fit for the run-in. We struggle to do that and many of the players we've let go recently would be useful in that regard.

Can't help but wonder if the Marshall/Olding conundrum is soon going to become the Marshall/Olding/McCloskey conundrum....

clivemcl wrote:Can't help but wonder if the Marshall/Olding conundrum is soon going to become the Marshall/Olding/McCloskey conundrum....

Was surprised he didn't start and try Marshall at 13 with Bowe and Trimble on the wings and Gilroy at full back but Andrew did well and even McKinney looked ok with the few things he did at 10

Notch wrote:The problem is that mismanagement seems to be continuing. We're seeing Fitzpatrick frozen out in favour of a player who isn't as strong a scrummager as him, and possibly he'll be pushed down to 4th place in the pecking order when Dave Ryan comes. Dave Ryan will hopefully be a solid enough option of called upon but he's been far from outstanding so far in his career.

We complain about how hard it is to find Irish tight heads and we are on the verge of forcing one who has been with us for nearly a decade out of the club for reasons I don't understand. Another guy who could be a very good squad player left out in the cold. No, he's not an outstanding world class player but he can do a job and we need players like that as well.

If this trend continues we'll probably not win anything because although we'll have a good few outstanding players in our first XV, by the end of every season half of them will be on the injury list due to the fact the understudies are not trusted enough to step in and our lack of depth means we can't rotate. Thats what happened to us around this time last year, and it could happen again this year.

Munster and Leinster have nothing over our strongest XV if we can get them all fit and on the pitch at the same time but they can rotate their squad and keep their players fit for the run-in. We struggle to do that and many of the players we've let go recently would be useful in that regard.

With the greatest respect to Geoff and im trying not to dispute his sources but of Schmidt had rated Fitz that highly why wasn't he involved (in any capacity in any Ireland training camp). If he is fit that is. I find it difficult to believe the irfu would let ulster freeze him out like that after giving him a Central contract. I just don't think it's as clear cut.

That said I would fall down more on Geoffs side in regards to the overall point. Whiten has been mentioned but would we want to see him ahead of Marshall, cave, Olding or Bowe, Gilroy, Trimble? For me absolutely not. Seymour is a decent player but I wouldn't have him ahead of the aforementioned wingers despite Gilroy having a tough year.

Caldwell was a liability at ulster and leaving was the best thing for him but he hasn't set the world alight either since. He had what can only be described as a decent season and then has been fairly anonymous. Similarly Falloon was fairly muck in his last season although in truth I would have retained him and D'arcy. The thing is not every coach will get everything right. I don't think we are as bad as is being made out and the Anscombe mob seem out in force over the last wee while. This despite being a stones throw from another Heineken semi with 14 men and a bloody unlucky decision being the difference. There is an issue with making sure we have the requisite quantity and quality coming through but I think it's simplistic to blame head coaches

clivemcl wrote:Can't help but wonder if the Marshall/Olding conundrum is soon going to become the Marshall/Olding/McCloskey conundrum....

I think that is getting ahead of ourselves McCloskey has impressed but he will not be in front of the other two anytime soon.
Great player to have though when the others are away playing for Ireland

With McCloskey doing so well and the IRFU understandably wanting Payne to play a lot of centre as well I can see Olding getting a fair bit of game time at 15 next year. Gilroy too.

StandU - agree with most of that.

Fitzpatrick is officially "injured", so isn't in the selection pack, but of course...


As for those that have left:
Faloon had every opportunity to impress. He was up against Pollock and latterly Henry, both of whom looked better. Like McKinney he thought he was better than he actually was, and maybe not guaranteeing him first choice status could be construed as pushing him out, but that was the harsh reality.
Whitten was getting plenty of gametime but wasn't first choice in any position, despite being capped for Ireland. He could command more money and be higher up the pecking order at Exeter so couldn't blame him for going. Michael Allen is just as good.
Caldwell was indeed a liability when he left. He settled a bit in Bath and when fit was doing well. Since then he has had a number of injuries and challenges off the pitch so is now LV standard. I wouldn't have him ahead of Stevenson and he isn't as good value as McComb. Time for O'Connor/Donnan/Simpson to get more exposure anyway.
Seymour is another who had a high opinion of himself, but the chances he had didn't convince anyone else. Danielli was better than him then, and I wouldn't swap Scholes or Nelson for him now. Both have far more potential than he showed at his age so just because he has subsequently found fame with Scotland doesn't change that.
D'Arcy was good and I was sorry to see him go, but he wasn't good enough to avoid Ulster signing Terblanche as cover for Payne. Ulster need their cover players to be able to step up and actually cover such situations. Ricky Andrew is a very similar player, but I would expect Olding to be cover next season and hopefully Nelson/Scholes will be ready after that.

So in short I don't see the mismanagement that others are talking about, but instead players who have been given opportunities and haven't cut it, move on and younger prospects are given their chance.

There is no way McCloskey will be picked in front of Olding for 12 - absolutely none.
Olding 12, Andrew 15 will be preferred to McCloskey 12, Olding 15 - of that I am certain.

I was thinking we might see Marshall or Cave moved in to 12 with Payne at 13 and Olding at 15

Obviously I'd rather have those guys in their best positions but I think the IRFU will force us to either use Payne at 13 more often or try and make him move.

Geoff - will we ever see Olding-Marshall in the centres next season or is that unlikely?

Rory that is very likely far more likely than Olding as a 15.
The club see him as a centre and a cover 10 + 15

I would add that whilst Payne will get game time at 13 he will be playing most of his rugby at 15

Just thought i'd draw up a depth chart for next year. Players ordered by preference by position - if they have not already been selected in another position
Does this look about right? - feel free to modify

LH
Black
Murphy
Warwick
McCall

H
Best
Herring
Jackson?

TH
Herbst
Lutton
Ryan
Fitzpatrick?

LK
NIQ
Tuohy
Hendy
Stevenson
O'Connor?

BF
Ferris
Wilson
Diack
Hendy
Joyce?

OF
Henry
Doyle?
McComish?

8
Williams>
Wilson<

SH
Pienaar
Marshall
Heaney?
Shanahan

FH
Jackson
IHumph?
Olding?
O'Hagan

IC
Marshall
Olding
Cave
McCloskey

OC
Cave
Payne
Bowe
Olding
Allen

WG
Trimble
Bowe
Gilroy
Scholes
Allen
Nelson

FB
Payne
Olding
Gilroy
Andrew
Nelson

What are the chances that if we get an away Play off game against Leinster, that they will swap it from the RDS to Ravenhill, in return of last years switch?

I'd say low- I wish they would, but I doubt it.

I'd say not a chance in hell and why should they - it was our problem not theirs

Any more word on the second row signing Geoff? Any names being thrown about? I see Blues have just signed Hoeata.

Andrew Trimble was on the Tonight show last night on RTE 1 and came over very well.

Link here: http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10272622/

34 minutes in. Enjoy!

Thanks, Sin e, really enjoyed that! Don't often see our Ulster boys in that kind of tv interview.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Any more word on the second row signing Geoff?  Any names being thrown about?  I see Blues have just signed Hoeata.

Nope. The club are no longer the rumour sieve they once were - someone has tighten up big time.
Basically the ordinary squad players are no longer privy to transfers.
More professional but frustrating for us.

Assured one is on the way though.
In other news heard Ross may be kept on for one more year.
Had a bad neck injury early on and I think they feel he deserve another crack at it next year

I can't recall us ever being this late with transfer news. It's easy to let the imagination go to dark places and think we don't have a clue but you have to back Humph

I think the turmoil with the HEC and rabo would have made it really difficult to attract players Stand. Not sure that's the only reason but its hard to compare with other years in terms of recruitment.

Rodders that is true without any question - I know that some of the contract talk was on hold till Europe was resolved.

The provinces were told to cut their staffing budget by 500,000 if no European competition materialized

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ulster-have-a-duty-to-appeal-jared-payne-red-card-1.1762095?page=2

Interesting article from Gerry Thornley about Paynes ban, Ulster are waiting for the written verdict still and on their decision to appeal yet hes still banned.

We wont appeal because we do not want to risk losing him for more games

Thornley can do one - we will not risk it to satisfy his sense of justice

geoff he's right in some senses but what got me, if he's right, is that by the time Ulster get the written decision the ban could be over kind of makes a mockery of the process that he could be cleared on appeal but faced a full punishment

If the anyone want to query it they can do it through appropriate channels.
Why should Ulster risk losing Payne for the rest of the season so that a current directive can be reassessed.
We are not going to be someone elses test case guinea pig

Ricky Lutton has signed for 2 years and Ricky Andrew for a year. Good news as both are good enough at Pro12 level.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Any more word on the second row signing Geoff?  Any names being thrown about?  I see Blues have just signed Hoeata.

Nope. The club are no longer the rumour sieve they once were - someone has tighten up big time.
Basically the ordinary squad players are no longer privy to transfers.
More professional but frustrating for us.

Assured one is on the way though.
In other news heard Ross may be kept on for one more year.
Had a bad neck injury early on and I think they feel he deserve another crack at it next year

I've heard Franco Van Der Merwe mentioned and also Louis Ludik as a wing/fullback since Robbie Robinson deal is dead.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Any more word on the second row signing Geoff?  Any names being thrown about?  I see Blues have just signed Hoeata.

Nope. The club are no longer the rumour sieve they once were - someone has tighten up big time.
Basically the ordinary squad players are no longer privy to transfers.
More professional but frustrating for us.

Assured one is on the way though.
In other news heard Ross may be kept on for one more year.
Had a bad neck injury early on and I think they feel he deserve another crack at it next year

I've heard Franco Van Der Merwe mentioned and also Louis Ludik as a wing/fullback since Robbie Robinson deal is dead.

Robinson was IQ though, or a project? Is Ludik a project?

I though Herbst was our one project, have we been allowed more?

Handy enough player - His mentor at Sharks was or man Terblanche.

So, to summarise all the whispers - iHumph, O'Hagan, Flip and Franco Van Der Merwe, and Ludik.

We are almost certainly not getting them all.

Firstly they are no longer designated projects - it is more an IRFU - Province case by case basis.

No way we are getting both Van Dr Merwe's - someone has miss heard the rumours and got the wrong end of the stick - we will only be looking at one

O'Hagan and iHumph are done deals I think
Ludik fits the profile of the utility back we seem to be keen on

geoff998rugby wrote:Firstly they are no longer designated projects - it is more an IRFU - Province case by case basis.

No way we are getting both Van Dr Merwe's - someone has miss heard the rumours and got the wrong end of the stick - we will only be looking at one

O'Hagan and iHumph are done deals I think
Ludik fits the profile of the utility back we seem to be keen on

Any idea which one is most likely Geoff? Both seem to be contracted till 2015 by my research. Flip has just gone through a divorce though and may be looking a 'new start' which his club may be sympathetic of. He has more years to give than Franco though.

Sorry Clive I am just aware that we have a lock and, almost certaintly, a utility back coming and the above names fit the descriptions I have been told but no actual names.

Is Franco not unlikely - Ruled out for 6 months with ankle injury?
http://www.supersport.com/rugby/article.aspx?Id=2373974

I am still gutted the Robbie Robinson deal was not to be, he looked to be the real deal, another Jared (but not as reckless).

Has anyone heard any word on Jared on twitter or anything like that? I hope he knows the amount of support he has from us fans and nobody blames him for what happened.

RF09 wrote:Is Franco not unlikely - Ruled out for 6 months with ankle injury?
http://www.supersport.com/rugby/article.aspx?Id=2373974

That might be the reason for the delay.

Had him lined up and then the injury put a spanner in the works

Six months would be late september - not really that bad. Unless the concern is that at 31, the recovery may not be what you would expect from a younger player.

I would think that signing would be considered a risk - 6 months out not able to run on an ankle. He wouldn't be match fit until late october all being well. And we all know what complications can arise from ankle injuries....Stephen Ferris...

I'm not sure I'd be terribly excited at the prospect of signing a crocked golden oldie, god knows we've enough injuries as it is without signing another one up. Unless of course he has some superhuman qualities in recovery like Besty or Touhy

If it was him lined my guess is the deals off and we are looking elsewhere

If anyone fancies joining the guessing game, head to the other forum.

A poster claims to have seen Anscombe at a restaurant having a meeting with Stuart Hogg (Don't shoot the messenger!).

Everyone was very skeptical until he posted a photo. Unfortunately said photo was only of the back of the mystery man!

Fun times.

Ah come on now?

Wishful thinking I'd guess.

Or maybe the IRFU are allowing it because Payne is off..........................

  

I have to say, I just googled Hoggs management, and his agent looks kinda like the other guy in the picture at the lunch meeting...

The guy on t'other forum does claim it was definately Hogg. Perhaps Payne is to be wearing 13 permanently with Hogg at 15.
Or perhaps they are discussing Hogg's red card to compare it to Jared's

Cant believe it for one moment myself but IF TRUE I do think Payne would be away

Edit: Just checked Hogg has a contract for next year with Warriors - sounds like complete nonsense to me

Edit2: Just checked his Agent - guess what he is agent to loads of players in Scotland, Wales and England - it could be any of them we are talking to

Classic 2+2 =5 if you ask me