Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The stats tell an interesting story - for the criticism he has had, Williams actually made more tackles than anyone apart from Luke Marshall.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191517.html

Stats must be taken in context - and they hide as much as they show i.e. where are the stats about losing the ball in contact, losing control of the ball at the base of the scrum, crooked throws, not all tackles are the same, kicking straight into touch etc etc
Reading that Payne was nearly as good as Trimble ...yer right

I know, but most of the criticism towards Nick Williams would be his work rate, yet he tackled more than Chris Henry.

I know turnovers made aren't taken into consideration here but it was interesting to see.

Pete330v2 wrote:I wonder why Anscombe isn't a Fitz fan. Is it something personal? I know there are a number of backroom personnel who don't get on with Anscombe at all to the extent of there being a full on mutual dislike. Fitz is definately a good enough player and has fitted into the Ulster mould easily before. That leaves personal reasons and they should never transfer to team selection but we all know they do unfortunately.

In the 8 seasons Fitzpatrick has been at Ulster he has had 85 appearances - more than half of those from the bench. That's an average of five starts per season, mostly because he's a perennial sicknote. It must be hard to be a fan of a player if he isn't there when you need him?

Lutton on the other hand has consistently improved over his two seasons, and offers just about as much in the scrum as Fitz but a lot more around the park. It looks to me as though there are no personal issues, just sensible team selection.

I personally wouldn't have put Williams in the 'wosrt' category at the weekend. I was actually glad to see his carrying being a little more affective again.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I wonder why Anscombe isn't a Fitz fan. Is it something personal? I know there are a number of backroom personnel who don't get on with Anscombe at all to the extent of there being a full on mutual dislike. Fitz is definately a good enough player and has fitted into the Ulster mould easily before. That leaves personal reasons and they should never transfer to team selection but we all know they do unfortunately.

In the 8 seasons Fitzpatrick has been at Ulster he has had 85 appearances - more than half of those from the bench. That's an average of five starts per season, mostly because he's a perennial sicknote. It must be hard to be a fan of a player if he isn't there when you need him?

Lutton on the other hand has consistently improved over his two seasons, and offers just about as much in the scrum as Fitz but a lot more around the park. It looks to me as though there are no personal issues, just sensible team selection.

Whilst true Fitzpatrick made a big effort last summer and upped his fitness.

He has been available for sometime just not picked.
Lutton is improving but no way is his scrimmaging the equal of Fitzpatrick

I don't think he missed more than 3 games or so through injury this season - for a prop that is not a bad record.
It is ironical he is being cold shoulder just when his fitness/availability has improved.

Lets be honest if he decided to up and sticks and go to, say Munster, to contest with Archer we would be well screwed.
If I was the next Munster coach I would be having a quiet word in his ear

Don't worry, if Fitz is alienated we'll just sign one of the many other Irish tight heads floating around   

If true, Humph would need to have word.

Notch wrote:Don't worry, if Fitz is alienated we'll just sign one of the many other Irish tight heads floating around   

If true, Humph would need to have word.

Its true believe me - not directly from Declan's mouth but only once removed.

You just can't afford to not get on with an Irish tighthead in this market if you are a provincial coach. There are more coaches who want to work for Ulster than Irish tightheads who want to play here. Hopefully Herbst works out and can play every week, but this really is bad news.

Why is it that McKinney is vilified for not doing what the coaches want yet Fitzpatrick gets a bye ball? There may not be a plethora of Irish Tightheads to choose from but that shouldn't mean they call the shots either. I don't know if Deccie considers himself on a par with Afoa but given his time on the pitch he might not be that far off his rate per minute! Considering he is supposedly so invaluable I'm surprised I haven't missed him.

Fitzpatrick has had eight seasons to step up and make himself first choice, so Anscombe can't be blamed for suddenly not picking him.

Geoff, any substance to the rumours we are not yet done shopping for props?

The Great Aukster wrote:Why is it that McKinney is vilified for not doing what the coaches want yet Fitzpatrick gets a bye ball?

We've signed two good Irish 10s for next season. Will we sign two good Irish tight heads? And McKinney doesn't have a track record of coming into big Heineken Cup games and pulling big performances out of nowhere, despite lacking gametime. I'd be massively concerned if we had to rely on McKinney in a Heineken Cup game, Fitzpatrick we could get by with- but even then I'd be fine with it if we could replace like with like. We can't, and if Anscombe doesn't recognise that he's a fool.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why is it that McKinney is vilified for not doing what the coaches want yet Fitzpatrick gets a bye ball?

We've signed two good Irish 10s for next season. Will we sign two good Irish tight heads? And McKinney doesn't have a track record of coming into big Heineken Cup games and pulling big performances out of nowhere, despite lacking gametime. I'd be massively concerned if we had to rely on McKinney in a Heineken Cup game, Fitzpatrick we could get by with- but even then I'd be fine with it if we could replace like with like. We can't, and if Anscombe doesn't recognise that he's a fool.

Obviously the flyhalf is the playmaker and has to run the game. It's not that easy for a substitute to just come in and deputise. Perhaps you've forgotten how flakey Ian Humphreys can be but I would have plenty of concern if he has to suddenly come in for a big game. O'Hagen will be great but is several years away from HEC level.

Anscombe and Humph are no fools - if Fitzpatrick was really that much better than Lutton he would be playing more. He is obviously rated higher than Macklin who's going, but Declan will be 31 in a few months and maybe Ulster are perfectly right in thinking he should be more than a journeyman at this stage in his career. If he's happy enough to get the odd 15 minutes off the bench then fine but I suspect Ulster want to sponsor players with a bit more ambition than that.

We need a squad. If they replace Fitzpatrick with a better Irish tight head, fair enough. And Humph has pulled rabbits out of his hat before. But I haven't forgotten anything about Humphreys- flawed player but compared to McKinney, the difference is stark. It's like comparing Macklin to Fitzpatrick. McKinney and Macklin are players whose natural level is well below Heineken Cup whereas Fitz and Humph can play there when they are at their best.

You need depth in the two most important positions on the pitch. We have a guy in Fitzpatrick who will never be first choice but will be able to do the job of playing in any one-off game. Its idiotic to exclude him.

Notch wrote:Its idiotic to exclude him.

How is he being excluded? He is still in the squad and it is up to the coach to pick the players most suited to the style of game he wants to play. Everyone has been lauding Joe Schmidt for picking the players to suit his gameplan, Anscombe is doing the same.

If Fitzpatrick is being excluded for a reason other than rugby based then he is not just the victim of Anscombe but also of Brian McLaughlin, Matt Williams, Steve Williams and Mark McCall - were they all wrong about him?

No, because they all to a man picked him. You've pointed its fitness not form that holds him back. If he's fit, he's the second best scrummager we have. He should be on the bench not Lutton, because he's delivered for Ulster in big games in the past. He has a track record. This is all very simple.

Anscombe has picked Fitzpatrick too since he's been coach, so it's not as though he hasn't had a look at him. Maybe he's still not fit enough? Maybe Lutton has out performed him in training? Maybe he can't adapt to the new scrum protocols? There could be any number of valid rugby reasons why he's not being selected.

The most illogical reason why he's not being picked is that the coach (who is judged on results) is sacrificing results because he doesn't like him for some personal reason. That would indeed be idiotic.

It wouldn't be uncommon for an out of favour player to claim 'its personal from the coach'. The coach may even give reasons, and give the player things to work on. That player could disagree and tell others 'he just doesn't like me'.

This notion was said to have come from Declan via someone else.

My point is - just because a player says its personal, doesn't actually mean it is. Sometimes players like to claim its personal before they want to admit that the coach is right about their flaws.

The thing that is idiotic regarding Fitzs non selection is that why, oh why was he just given a Central Contract (was it 3 years?). Do the Ulster management (if they don't rate him) and the IRFU not talk?

The Great Aukster wrote:Anscombe has picked Fitzpatrick too since he's been coach, so it's not as though he hasn't had a look at him. Maybe he's still not fit enough? Maybe Lutton has out performed him in training? Maybe he can't adapt to the new scrum protocols? There could be any number of valid rugby reasons why he's not being selected.

The most illogical reason why he's not being picked is that the coach (who is judged on results) is sacrificing results because he doesn't like him for some personal reason. That would indeed be idiotic.

Your right and my belief the coach is being idiotic.

Schmidt wants Fitzpatrick in the squad not Lutton.
Fitzpatrick is fitter than he has ever been.

Now I have dug around a bit this places a serious question mark about Anscombe's judgement in my mind.

If you think this is all to far fetch I refer you back to the McLaughlin - Diack split of a few years back.
We nearly lost out most consistant player of the last two years because the coach didn't get on with him.

Also the McKinney analogy is inapporpriate he is not good enough, Fitzpatrick is.
Fitzpatrick could be our best scrummaging TH next year, and definitely in the top two to fall out with him is madness.
Also the reference to the new scrummaging rules suit Fitzpatrick because they put a greater emphasis on technique and that is what he has got in spades.

For him to no longer be part of the setup is madness as it would leave us with 2 TH's and then nothing at all.
1 injury from having a total inadequate being on the bench - that would be a disgrace.

Hold on, how many games has Declan been 'snubbed' for? Are we by any chance getting carried away here?

He has been out of the loop for about 2 months i.e fit but not selected.

As I said earlier this is only once removed from the man himself.

It also might explain those rumours you have heard about another prop coming in because we simply must retain Fitzpatrick otherwise we are an injury away from chaos at TH.

Being on a central contract he could move easily and as I say would suit Munster - Botha doesn't appear to be the man he was. The Munster bit is specualtion on my part - the rest is not.

The Great Aukster wrote:Anscombe has picked Fitzpatrick too since he's been coach, so it's not as though he hasn't had a look at him. Maybe he's still not fit enough? Maybe Lutton has out performed him in training? Maybe he can't adapt to the new scrum protocols? There could be any number of valid rugby reasons why he's not being selected.

The most illogical reason why he's not being picked is that the coach (who is judged on results) is sacrificing results because he doesn't like him for some personal reason. That would indeed be idiotic.

Totally agree. The last time I saw Fitzpatrick play he was beasted in the scrum (can't remember the game)....unless there is some evidence I don't see any reason to conclude that he's been omitted for anything other than rugby reasons.

Maybe not connected but I did hear not so long ago that there were certain players in the Ulster squad, specifically the academy players and graduates, that had a poor attitude to fitness and training. No names but the comment I believe was in part aimed towards some of the injury prone props, and that these recurring injuries were in large part due to not doing the S&C work as diligently as expected.... I had surmised that some or all of Fitzpatrick, Macklin and/or Paddy Mac were being referred to but that's just a guess....

We might as well chat about the game this weekend.

Who do you expect to be absent from the game from Ulster?

From Saracens perspective I don't expect Billy Vunipola will be fit and Fraser is still injured. Other than them the team will be full strength.

This is the 23 I expect to face Ulster though Taylor might feature.

1.Vunipola
2.Brits
3.Johnston
4.Borthwick
5.Kruis
6.Brown
7.Burger
8.Joubert

9.Wigglesworth
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Bosch
14.Ashton
15.Goode

16.Barrington
17.George
18.Stevens
19.Botha
20.Wray
21.De Kock
22.Hodgson
23.Wyles


What Ulster team do you expect?

Do we have a clean bill of health other than Black?

I'll guess something along the lines off:

1 Court
2 Best
3 Afoa
4 Touhy
5 Muller
6 Wilson
7 Henry
8 Williams
9 Pienaar
10 Jackson
11 Trimble
12 Marshall
13 Cave
14 Bowe
15 Cave

16. ?
17. Herring
18. Lutton
19. Henderson
20. Diack
21. Ferris
22. Marshall
23. Gilroy

Saracens looking very strong and are heavy favourites for me.

Sorry guys I dont buy this poor attitude to trainig nonsense.

In the past maybe but not this year he has tried very hard to do better.
Also whilst I can buy Lutton being selected in front to Fitzpatrcik , Macklin no way.

As to injury prone props maybe the coaching isn't up to it - why is it none of our promise props seem to develop.
When Corrigan was here we started to make progress, and Botha built on that, but we appear to have gone backwards since.

In fact since Simon Best who has come through the ranks ??
Neither Black or Lutton learnt there trade at Ulster. Even Court had to go elsewhere and also he benfited from Botha and Corrigan.
In fact, and ironically, Fitzpatrick himself, is probably the only one.

McAllister for all his power and commitment had a poor technique.
Also anyone who things McAllister didn't train hard enough doesn't know the man
McCall showed promised so they decide to turn him into a hooker - why???

I think this is scraping the surface of serious mis managment with respect to developing props

Rodders thanks for posting your expected team.

Saracens heavy favourites?  Not going to fall for that.

A full strength Ulster at home makes Saracens underdogs. Okay you lost to Cardiff - sometimes a loss like that is necessary to get rid of complacency.

We faced something similar - a loss to London Irish at home -haven't lost in the AP since then.

Results can only tell you so much - Saracens have been winning quite comfortably but there's been cracks in the armour that a good side like Ulster can exploit. Plus it hasn't helped that the likes of Wasps and Quins have rested players which means we haven't really been tested in our last two matches.

I just hope Saracens are saving a big performance for Ulster because we'll need to play better than we have vs Quins and Wasps.

Ulster away is a far bigger challenge. Saracens have a lot to prove when it comes to the top sides in Europe. Dispatching sides in the AP is nice but Sarries need to start performing on the European stage.

Beshocked, somebody should make a separate thread I'd suggest! But as for the Ulster team - there will be some debate on whether to drop players who have been firm regulars off the back of a poor weekend performance versus, keeping a similar side and hope those players will switch on for the big occasion.

To me, the though of not starting Muller is horrible, but truth be told, he maybe shouldn't be on form.

But surely we need his presence (rather than his form) for such a big occasion. I think the other 14 players need him in order to rise to the occasion themselves.

Muller is talismanic whether or not his form isn't the best. What he brings to the side is much more than brawn. Also beshocked is right, we can't guage Ulster's form by what happened in Cardiff. The Blues played their best game of rugby all season and Ulster were decidedly average if not terrible and we still almost won it. Players thoughts were very much on the match this coming week and it's going to be an almighty battle.

clivemcl I agree someone should make a separate thread.I just feel I don't know enough about Ulster to give a good analysis. Form vs reputation - not an easy choice. We face a similar thing with Wray vs Brown.

beshocked wrote:Rodders thanks for posting your expected team.

Saracens heavy favourites?  Not going to fall for that.

On current form I believe so. Saracens have been really impressive whereas Ulster have struggled since the last round of the Heino. A lot of our big names are out of sorts or unfit so I don't feel good about this.... I'm hoping home advantage and the atmosphere can get us back to our best.

Geoff I'm not saying they aren't training hard - but I did hear that a lot of the recurring injures were deemed due to players not doing their S&C exercises - particularly the young forwards - and following the personal programs laid out for them and that this was a source of frustration within the coaching team. No names were mentioned but if you look at who the frequently injured players are you can make a guess.

Rodders have you seen Saracens matches? The scoreline flattered us a bit vs Quins - two interceptions for example.

Struggled really? When did you last lose at Ravenhill?

Ulster have been unbeaten in the pool stages of the HC whereas Sarries lost two. We've been strong throughout the AP but that counts for little in the HC where we've come up short far too many times vs the top teams.

Beshocked we have been very poor in 3 of the last 5 matches and no more than ok in the other two.

We are nowhere near the form we were in Rounds 5 and 6.

Fine I will make an Ulster vs Saracens thread.

Fine I will make an Ulster vs Saracens thread.

Pienaar claims that Humph didn't scout him, but that he asked Johan to enquiry about Ulster on his behalf!

Thats interesting!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26154978

Interesting indeed Clive, it would explain why he chose to remain with us depite being offered blank cheques elsewhere. A man with the correct morals and priorities is a rare thing. We are very lucky to have his like.

'Hello, Dwayne Peel? Yes... Hi Dwayne, Its David Humphries here... listen, somethings come up and well... we no longer are looking to sign you...'

I suspect when Pienaer realized Muller was moving to Ulster he wanted to go to.
Muller is Pienaers hero.

Peel ...wash your mouth out.........................we want no filty talk here !!!

I can't believe the situation re Fitzpatrick, with Black's injury it would have make a lot of sense to have Fitzpatrick at TH and switch back Lutton to LH (he is a former LH, right?).

Warwick and Lutton coming in to close the game against Saracens doesn't exactly make for confortable reading.

Fitzpatrick is a respectable LH in is own right - until a couple of years back he had a number of games there is an Ulster shirt.

The sad thing is given his injury record, everyone is just assuming that Fitzpatrick is again injured. He could be a real asset come saturday..

If Afoa limps off with a niggle and we're defending a 5m scrum on our own line, I'd rather see Deccie Fitz warming up than Ricky Lutton. I can understand why he isn't involved if it's because we need a mobile tight head as an impact carrier but Lutton isn't that mobile (more mobile than Deccie granted) and it seems like he would never be trusted to come on for Afoa in any big game anyway.

Notch wrote:I'd rather see Deccie Fitz warming up than Ricky Lutton.

Not too sure about that - no point in risking Deccie with a warm up...

Can you imagine the conversation with DHumph?

"Humph, I was wondering if you might have a spot at 9 for a friend of mine who wants to try a bit of rugby outside of SA?"

"Well Johann, we have been talking to some big names for that spot already and then we have some excellent home grown guys like SmallP etc so I can't promise anything. Sure give me his contact details and I'll see if we can find a spot in the Ravens for him. Can't guarantee he'll get much game time though."

  

"Okay.....I'll just check with the Big Wigs and see if we can squeeze Ruan in then and get back to you!"

  

"Shane!!!! You'll never guess who WANTS to come to play for us!!!!"

Is there an ageing Crusaders forward who Dan Carter idolises by any chance?

Notch wrote:Is there an ageing Crusaders forward who Dan Carter idolises by any chance?

Derek Spence?

I see the one bloke who knows what he talking about on the Supporters board is hinting at a new NIQ back.

Given a Lock is a given, if true it means we can infer there will be no more NIQ props or backrowers.
Sounds right to me

Ali Williams from Toulon would be a handy ticket for a season or so. Bakkies Botha on a buy 1 get 1 free would be better.

geoff998rugby wrote:I see the one bloke who knows what he talking about on the Supporters board is hinting at a new NIQ back.

Given a Lock is a given, if true it means we can infer there will be no more NIQ props or backrowers.
Sounds right to me

Geoff, how sure are you that Payne isn't going to Leinster?? The man in question on UAFC told me I was sniffing in the right direction when I suggested the back may be a 15. I suggested it was for backup to Payne for when hes playing 13 or with Ireland. His response was ‘keep going Clive’. Words cannot express how peeved I would be if Leinster were to snipe our project extraordinaire!

Payne going to Leinster would be bizarre. It won't happen. Good point on cover for 15 though. Potentially we could be missing Jackson, Trimble, Bowe, Cave, Marshall and Payne in Ireland call ups. Then there's Olding to come back into the mix for Ireland.

Jackson, Trimble, Bowe, Cave, Marshall, Olding and Payne - all potential Ireland. Though very unlikely we would face any games without them all. But... if we did.

9 Pienaar
10 Humphries/O'Hagan
11 ???
12 McCloskey
13 Allen
14 Scholes
15 Nelson

I think we could do with another back or two.

Even if one of Marshall/Olding remained and say Cave and Gilroy.

We would still be looking a backline with Scholes/Nelson/Allen in there somewhere, and are they going to be good enough? I'd like to see more of Scholes. I'm not sold on Nelson. Allen is decent but not improved as much as I'd hoped he would.