Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

I dont think Payne is going.

A lot of talk of backup to Payne at 15 - sure in numbers but who has both experience and quality for that position - no one.

clivemcl wrote:Jackson, Trimble, Bowe, Cave, Marshall, Olding and Payne - all potential Ireland. Though very unlikely we would face any games without them all. But... if we did.

9 Pienaar
10 Humphries/O'Hagan
11 ???
12 McCloskey
13 Allen
14 Scholes
15 Nelson

I think we could do with another back or two.

Even if one of Marshall/Olding remained and say Cave and Gilroy.

We would still be looking a backline with Scholes/Nelson/Allen in there somewhere, and are they going to be good enough? I'd like to see more of Scholes. I'm not sold on Nelson. Allen is decent but not improved as much as I'd hoped he would.

11 - Gilroy - if gone Nelson and Andrew at 15.

Nelson has yet to show his talent - stil lhave hopes
Allen will never be any more than a solid squad player and useful at that - not International class.

Geoff - and anyone else...

I have not been able to keep up recently. Any chance of a summary of the likely/confirmed comings and goings? I see glimpses - Humph back? Payne going? Gilroy?

Help!

As far as I am aware the following are leaving:
Muller, Farrell, McIlwaine, McKinney, Afoa, Court, Porter, Macklin, Annett  9
The following could be leaving - Cochrane, Ross, McAllister 3
The following are only staying because they have a 1 year left on their contract - McCormish, MCComb 2

No other full squad member is leaving

The following are coming:
Murphy, iHumph, O'Hagan, Herbst, Top quality NIQ Lock 5
Rumours of - another prop, another back but nothing substantial on either 2

So roughly 5 more out than in hence my observation we will be seeing a lot more of the youngsters this coming year

Cheers Geoff - that is a fair churn. I suppose most of the exiting personnel haven't played much rugby this season, or at all.

Couple that I am sorry to see go (aside from the obvious Muller/Afoa/Court)
1. Porter - thought he had potential - but I guess it hasn't evolved at this stage?
2. McAllister (if he goes) - showed a lot of promise a couple of years ago. Injury jinx?
3. McKinney..... I have only watched him start twice for Ulster, and can't really remember any sub appearances. He played well in Italy I think - kicked everything. Then against Glasgow at Ravenhill (I think) he played like a drain.

Ross? Was he prop that came in from somewhere last year?

Where is O'Hagan coming in from?

clivemcl wrote:Jackson, Trimble, Bowe, Cave, Marshall, Olding and Payne - all potential Ireland. Though very unlikely we would face any games without them all. But... if we did.

9 Pienaar
10 Humphries/O'Hagan
11 ???
12 McCloskey
13 Allen
14 Scholes
15 Nelson

I think we could do with another back or two.

Even if one of Marshall/Olding remained and say Cave and Gilroy.

We would still be looking a backline with Scholes/Nelson/Allen in there somewhere, and are they going to be good enough? I'd like to see more of Scholes. I'm not sold on Nelson. Allen is decent but not improved as much as I'd hoped he would.

It isn't inconceivable that Jackson, Marshall, Trimble, Bowe, and Payne could all be on Ireland duty together. Not sure about Cave, but think he gets his chance to shine in Argentina, along with Olding perhaps? Gilroy is another potential, but he's going to have to sort out his drop in form.
I'm happy that Humphries is set to return because he would be the best cover we have for Jackson at the moment. It should also mean that Pienaar doesn't have to cover 10 which will be a huge benifit, I think. I'm sure Olding could easily step in, but the plan for him is at centre, and fairly sure he will also be involved in Ireland anyway.
Very happy with McCloskey so far. Good in defence, and hope to see more of him in attack. Not sure about Scholes yet.

Does it annoy anybody else that we have Olding and Marshall at 12? Assuming Olding gets back to where he was - how irritating is it that after years of Paddy Wallace, we now have a 23 yr old 12 with international experience facing potential usurpation
If we insist on both being 12s, one will replace Darcy at Leinster surely.

Olding will be playing games 13, and quite possbly 10 and 15 next year.
He should stay primarily as a centre though.
 
In truth with internationals and injuries I would not worry too much.
Say 30 games at 12,13,15 - 4 players to fill - Olding, Marshall, Cave, Payne
20+ matches each.
10 for McCloskey
 
Leinster successfully build up genuine cover - we need to do the same
 
McKinney has proven to have a totally inadequate pass and his attitude leaves a little to be desired.
McAllister, if he goes, is simply to get him some regular game time because he has been out so long.
 
Ross is the prop we brought in and O'Hagan is from Connaught and was the Ireland U-20 fly half. Looks an excellent prospect

Olding wont be going to Argentina but will be fit for the start of the new season

geoff998rugby wrote:Olding will be playing games 13, and quite possbly 10 and 15 next year.
He should stay primarily as a centre though.
 
In truth with internationals and injuries I would not worry too much.
Say 30 games at 12,13,15 - 4 players to fill - Olding, Marshall, Cave, Payne
20+ matches each.
10 for McCloskey
 
Leinster successfully build up genuine cover - we need to do the same
 
McKinney has proven to have a totally inadequate pass and his attitude leaves a little to be desired.
McAllister, if he goes, is simply to get him some regular game time because he has been out so long.
 
Ross is the prop we brought in and O'Hagan is from Connaught and was the Ireland U-20 fly half. Looks an excellent prospect

Olding wont be going to Argentina but will be fit for the start of the new season

Was thinking about that. I had heard out for the season, but hoping that was a worst case scenario.

2bFair wrote:Geoff - and anyone else...

I have not been able to keep up recently. Any chance of a summary of the likely/confirmed comings and goings? I see glimpses - Humph back? Payne going? Gilroy?

Help!

Say what?!   

geoff998rugby wrote:Olding will be playing games 13, and quite possbly 10 and 15 next year.
He should stay primarily as a centre though.

At the very beginning of the season, Luke Marshall got a few chances at 13 to see how he looked there. Why will Olding be playing at 13 and not Luke? To me it would make more sense to have Stuart (better playmaker) at 12 and Luke (better direct runner) at 13.

Schmidt and the IRFU won't be playing/paying Payne as a 13 if he's playing 15 at Ulster, ergo Payne will play at 13 for Ulster (or for somebody else). That means that Cave won't be first choice for Ulster, so I'd expect him to go (possibly to Munster!). So Payne won't be playing 15 for Ulster because he'll be playing 13, therefore Ulster need a 15.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Olding will be playing games 13, and quite possbly 10 and 15 next year.
He should stay primarily as a centre though.

At the very beginning of the season, Luke Marshall got a few chances at 13 to see how he looked there.  Why will Olding be playing at 13 and not Luke?  To me it would make more sense to have Stuart (better playmaker) at 12 and Luke (better direct runner) at 13.

 
Luke is central to the Irish set up for the WC as a 12 so that where he will play
 
I suspect for Olding, like Hanrahan, the WC has come a season too soon, not impossible to break through but a mountain to climb.
I suspect Olding will be Ulster's utility man next year - 2nd 12, 3rd 13, 2nd 15, 3rd 10.
 
13 will be split between Payne and Cave primarily

The Great Aukster wrote:Schmidt and the IRFU won't be playing/paying Payne as a 13 if he's playing 15 at Ulster, ergo Payne will play at 13 for Ulster (or for somebody else). That means that Cave won't be first choice for Ulster, so I'd expect him to go (possibly to Munster!). So Payne won't be playing 15 for Ulster because he'll be playing 13, therefore Ulster need a 15.

Payne and Cave are going nowhere

13 will be split between the 2
Payne will play 15 in the big games and I suspect Olding will be back up.

I have to say, Olding is as bright a prospect as I've ever seen, I think he will be a real star but not if he isn't allowed to settle into one position (preferably 12 where he is dynamite). Payne will be more often than not playing at 13 jointly with Cave as Geoff has stipulated. I do drool at the thought of Olding and Payne playing a very creative centre partnership. There are a number of combinations Ulster and Ireland can use there but what a great headache to have.

P.S. If Leinster poach Payne I would be looking for half a dozen players in return or the deal's off. He's worth ten men.

The new Raven Hill and facilities looks really slick.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ulster-ravenhill-refurbished-photos-saracens-1394453-Apr2014/

Exciting times for Ulster rugby.

Shane Logan has got great vision for the future. UR now have gym facilities as good as the top football clubs never mind the top rugby clubs. On the mezzanine above the weights area is various rehab stuff including the £60k anti-gravity treadmill. At the end of the sprint track is the analysis room where guys are measured during their training. Then there's the digitally controlled ice baths and the physio areas. Up above there's various different sized rooms with everything from a board room to a rec room with pool table etc. There is attention to detail as well as those in the academy and underage teams have their own area.

Logan's vision is for every school pupil from the nine counties to have visited the Nevin Spence centre twice during their school career - once at primary and once at secondary age. He has a target for participation that should produce more and more talent for Ulster, but it goes beyond that. He wants kids to be exposed to rugby and the healthy ethos that it now requires so that they get lifelong benefits.

Next on the list is a 3/4 sized 4G training pitch behind the Aquinas stand, and if that works out there could be a 4G surface on the real thing in a few seasons. Exciting times - now the team just have to win something.

Pete330v2 wrote:I have to say, Olding is as bright a prospect as I've ever seen, I think he will be a real star but not if he isn't allowed to settle into one position (preferably 12 where he is dynamite). Payne will be more often than not playing at 13 jointly with Cave as Geoff has stipulated. I do drool at the thought of Olding and Payne playing a very creative centre partnership. There are a number of combinations Ulster and Ireland can use there but what a great headache to have.

P.S. If Leinster poach Payne I would be looking for half a dozen players in return or the deal's off. He's worth ten men.

I have to agree Pete. I still believe that if Ulster bounce someone of oldings ability from position to position, he will go to a rival. He's good enought o have a shirt to call his.

If olding gets three games at 12 next season, I can see Marshall not getting it back. Ulster need to be careful with how they manage this.

Clive it could be beneficial for Olding when it comes to his international prospects, Madigan got into the squad for the France game because he could cover 3 of the back positions, if geoff is right Olding could be an asset in 4 positions so could give him an edge on others

Olding has already shown how easily he adapts to each position so moving him from one position to another isn't harming his development at all. In fact it is probably making him a far more rounded player with an appreciation of the team roles and how he fits into them. What he needs is high level experience and he should be getting that without pigeon-holing him into any position.

By far his best chance of making the Ireland RWC squad is as a utility back, so for one season he can build his high level appearances albeit from a number of positions.

Very valid points!

Probably the best game I saw Olding play for Ulster was at 15- though tbh I put that down more to him getting game time and building momentum from the experience he's been getting than the positional switch.

As our luck with injuries would have it, that was the game before he got injured.

Notch wrote:Probably the best game I saw Olding play for Ulster was at 15- though tbh I put that down more to him getting game time and building momentum from the experience he's been getting than the positional switch.

As our luck with injuries would have it, that was the game before he got injured.

He and Marshall linked up extremely well in the midfield in that game.

The Great Aukster wrote:Olding has already shown how easily he adapts to each position so moving him from one position to another isn't harming his development at all. In fact it is probably making him a far more rounded player with an appreciation of the team roles and how he fits into them. What he needs is high level experience and he should be getting that without pigeon-holing him into any position.

By far his best chance of making the Ireland RWC squad is as a utility back, so for one season he can build his high level appearances albeit from a number of positions.

I concur. Marshall and Olding are really exciting young players - one is very versatile the other less so, so it's not rocket science to work out how they will be accommodated.

One or both will be heavily involved in Irish duty I'd imagine so both will be in and out. I'd imagine with a full deck Luke Marshall will be lining out at 12.

If Payne is playing 13 next year, you'd guess Olding may get a run at 15.

Could the lock you guys are looking at be Hugh Pyle? He's said that he's leaving the rebels for Europe next season. By all accounts he is a very good player and hasnt been capped by Australia yet.

Or you going for a Saffa again?

I would not worry about Olding next year.
Versatility will do him no harm for 1 year.

HOWEVER we should, and I believe will, see him playing 12/13 only after that.
That is where is he is seen as a long term Irish prospect.

So much depends on who is the next 13 for Ireland - is it Cave or Payne or Henshaw.
If Payne doesn't nail down the 13 shirt for Ireland I don't see the problem - 3 players (Marshall/Olding/Cave) for two positions (12/13) is fine.
If Payne becomes the Irish 13 then to have 4 players of that quality for 2 positions is probably too much.
Someone would leave - probably Cave which is ironic because I stil maintain he is the best 13 available, for Ireland as well as Ulster.

Bottom line is can Cave put in performances for Ireland that make him no1 13, no problem, if not his place at Ulster as well as Ireland is in peril.

Munchkin wrote:Payne going to Leinster would be bizarre.

Would it? Ireland want him at 13, by the sounds of it he wants to play 13, Leinster need a 13, Ulster need a 15. Like you could put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 but this rumour keeps coming up.

I heard somewhere way back that Leinster had already signed O'Driscoll's replacement and that they were IQ. To me that means either Henshaw or someone else.....

He is not going - how many times do I have to repeat it   

Leinster have signed a replacement? - it is obviously Henshaw

geoff998rugby wrote:He is not going - how many times do I have to repeat it   

Leinster have signed a replacement? - it is obviously Henshaw

Probably a few more geoff but I do feel a bit better that you did   

Has Henshaw not signed up for another year or two at Connacht earlier this season?

Or do contracts mean nothing any more if another province is interested?

If Henshaw is in the frame to be BODs successor he needs to be playing Heineken Cup which he won't be at Connacht. Stands to reason the irfu will move him on

Yeah I think Henshaw will move but do think there is substance in these Payne rumours. Hopefully Geoff is spot on though.

If Payne goes it will be over Humphreys dead body and from what I have heard Payne would not be please either

We are already resigned to a weaker front row next year - to lose our best 15 as well, with no viable back up, would be a complete kick in the teeth and results would suffer

Here's the thing. Will we an appreciably weaker front row? Afoa hasn't been the force he was previously (probably due to the 20000 mile commute) and if Herbst can hold up the scrum I'm not convinced we will be a million miles worse of.

On the other side Black has convinced me he is now a better option than Court and although I don't know a lot about Murphy but he looks like an athletic sort. If he can scrum he can be a good option

Murphy is on the bench for the Brumbies tomorrow morning so it would be well worth having a peek at him there. I did view a few clips of him on youtube and he looked like a pretty destructive loosey however there is no context as the guy he was up against could well have been tom kite. Herbst is highly regared by his peers by all accounts and can play both sides of the scrum so me may well be covered in the front row.

Lock.....now that's a different story depending on who we can sign. Our tight five depends upon it. Any names Geoff????

Stand I am thinking depth as much as anything.

The way things are going we will fall off a cliff quality/experience wise after our 1st and 2nd choices.
Also however good Herbst and Murphy are it will take time to adjust - Afoa and Court had been there, seen it, done it

The club are being much tighter re leaks - previously it has been a sieve.
Frustrating for us but more professional as an organization

Court, Afoa, Macklin, McAllister, Ross out, McCall switched to hooker.
Herbst, Murphy in.

Three LHs and three THs are nowhere near enough in an injury prone position like prop and considering it is mandatory to have players of a required standard to take the field.

I was about to mention McCall Aukster. I was hoping he wouldn't be moved from a prop and it definitely seems like a poor call if that is still the case

geoff998rugby wrote:
If Payne becomes the Irish 13 then to have 4 players of that quality for 2 positions is probably too much.
Someone would leave - probably Cave which is ironic because I still maintain he is the best 13 available, for Ireland as well as Ulster.

Bottom line is can Cave put in performances for Ireland that make him no1 13, no problem,  if not his place at Ulster as well as Ireland is in peril.

Cave seems to be overlooked by everyone for the 13 spot for Ireland, the Against the Head boys went through the list a few times post 6Ns and mentioned everyone including Earls, despite him never impressing there, though no mention of Cave.

Since November he's looked like he has had a point to prove and whether he's worked on his game or found an extra half yard he's improved.

marty2086 wrote:
Cave seems to be overlooked by everyone for the 13 spot for Ireland, the Against the Head boys went through the list a few times post 6Ns and mentioned everyone including Earls, despite him never impressing there, though no mention of Cave.

Since November he's looked like he has had a point to prove and whether he's worked on his game or found an extra half yard he's improved.

Schmidt hasn't. He mentioned recently that Cave and Henshaw have been mentored by BOD at the training camps and alongside Payne and McFadden he is a frontrunner to play 13.

Honestly I think Payne and Henshaw are in the driving seat but Cave will win a lot more caps from here in, even if he is unlikely to nail the starting spot. I also think Schmidt has his eye on Cave as inside centre.

Can't understand it myself Standum. McCall always looked the business to me for the Ravens and at u20 level (on both sides). There is an argument that a short loosehead makes it harder for the hooker now that the No.2 has to strike for the ball - so McCall moving one in might have some merit.

rodders wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Payne going to Leinster would be bizarre.

Would it? Ireland want him at 13, by the sounds of it he wants to play 13, Leinster need a 13, Ulster need a 15. Like you could put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 but this rumour keeps coming up.

I heard somewhere way back that Leinster had already signed O'Driscoll's replacement and that they were IQ. To me that means either Henshaw or someone else.....

Yes, Ireland are considering Payne at 13, and Payne does want to play 13, but Henshaw and Cave might still jump in there ahead of him. Even if Payne is selected, why would Ulster be willing to let him go to Leinster, and why would he need to go? Leinster need a replacement, but surely it would make much more sense for Henshaw to make the move? Leinsters gain of a centre would be Ulsters loss of a fullback. Maybe Leinster would then send us Rob Kearney as replacement? It would make about as much sense, I think.
I think this rumour started in babbling bloke. Wishful thinking, methinks.

No Leinster!     Just no!   

I'm not aware of the technical side of a short LH Aukster but it's an interesting point. Young McCall went very well against Marty Moore albeit that was in preseason. I don't think much good can come from shifting young lads around like that but you never know. Just on another point about the weekend lads. Anyone not got tickets there should be a good crowd at The Fly and there's a Heineken shindig there. Apparently Trimble and ferris will be there post game too but I'm not sure if that's ticket only

Stand its a ticketed event at the Fly, all sold out I think too, they are giving away 25 pairs of tickets on the day

Still think anyone can go down and watch the game. You never know, you might be able to blag your way upstairs

Munchkin wrote: Even if Payne is selected, why would Ulster be willing to let him go to Leinster, and why would he need to go?  

Because he's only contracted with Ulster until the end of this season, then he has an IRFU central contract to play at an unspecified province if some sources are to be believed.

rodders wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Even if Payne is selected, why would Ulster be willing to let him go to Leinster, and why would he need to go?  

Because he's only contracted with Ulster until the end of this season, then he has an IRFU central contract to play at an unspecified province if some sources are to be believed.

Surely he signed a contract extension with Ulster, last may, for another three years? Personally I think talk of him moving to Leinster is nonsense. Ulster Rugby would be against it, and even with an IRFU contract, I can't see IRFU going over the head of Ulster on this. I just don't think a move like that makes sense on any level.

It makes sense if the IRFU decide they don't like money; the flood of fans crossing the border for internationals would fall to a trickle if they pulled some stunt like that.

It won't happen. If they decide Leinster need a 13 and Payne needs to be first choice 13, Cave would be the man to move- not Payne. Ulster will use any and all bargaining power to ensure Payne stays. This kind of move would be unprecedented and Ulster would be well within their rights to point that out. Think it's just a malicious rumour. This is like if the IRFU decided Munster had too many second rows when Donnacha Ryan couldn't get a game and sent O'Connell or O'Callaghan off somewhere else. Ultimately if the insist Payne is a 13 its far more likely Cave loses out on selection than Payne leaves.

Much as I like a good old bit of rumour mongering in terms of the Leinster bias of the IRFU even I cant believe that Payne would be moved to Leinster unless of course he has expressed an interest.

Notch wrote:It makes sense if the IRFU decide they don't like money; the flood of fans crossing the border for internationals would fall to a trickle if they pulled some stunt like that.

It won't happen. If they decide Leinster need a 13 and Payne needs to be first choice 13, Cave would be the man to move- not Payne. Ulster will use any and all bargaining power to ensure Payne stays. This kind of move would be unprecedented and Ulster would be well within their rights to point that out. Think it's just a malicious rumour. This is like if the IRFU decided Munster had too many second rows when Donnacha Ryan couldn't get a game and sent O'Connell or O'Callaghan off somewhere else. Ultimately if the insist Payne is a 13 its far more likely Cave loses out on selection than Payne leaves.

I don't think either move will happen but I'd take Cave in a heartbeat.He's a quality 13 at HC level and while he may or may not make it with Ireland I'd be confident he'd do a top job for Leinster.Personally I think Ulster should keep Payne at 15 and concentrate on Olding and Cave as the main 13's.It would suit ireland too,we are light at 13 obviously but if Kearney gets injured we're also goosed at FB,Henshaw can play there and Jones could do a job but the former looks to be concentrating on 13 a bit more and the latter is playing poorly and who knows if he'll ever get back to top form due to the sheer weight of injuries he's endured.