Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

The changes to the structure of the Academy were made relatively recently. It will take time to see whether or not they bear fruit.

The problem is not the academy - it's the quality and preparedness of the players coming into the academy. Guys are coming into the academy with no idea about diet and training and with sub standard basic skills, technique and conditioning to play the pro game.  

That's what the new systems set up by McLaughlin are there for - to widen the talent pool and give a higher standard of coaching in the schools and clubs development strands.

This is a long term thing - don't expect too much too soon.

Rodders has touched on it.

The Academy has improved but it will take time.

Not so long ago we had a poor academy and poor pre Academy readiness - we still have the latter.

Standulstermen wrote:Could you be even more specific though and say we aren't producing the guys from the Reid era. Bear in mind 29 is a fairly arbitrary age and Wilson, Henry, Marshall, ferris, Neil best, Neil McMillan, Ryan Caldwell all came through and have moved on. So ewe were producing to some extent but now it seems to be a tad barren. What about Falloon (he wasn't academy was he)

That's why we wanted McLaughlin in there helping. Hopefully Donnan, McCall, Dow or Joyce come through now because you are right in that we do need it

My point is a simple one - if you look at players who are under 29 now then their is virtually no one who has come through the ranks for 11 positions.
The list of players you mentioned illustrates the point. for a number of years we had plenty and then it almost totally dried up.
This is completely unsustainable

Here's one to test your metal ladies and gents.

Try watching the faces on the Ulster team at the end of saturdays match with the sound down and play Eblouie par La Nuit by Zaz over the footage.
If you don't well up you are already dead

I tried it as an experiment as I'm off work today and a little bored

Geoff I heard it from a reliable source - the standard of the grassroots - clubs, schools - has not  developed over the past decade and this is where the focus is now. Regional development squad have been put in place to try and increase the player base and quality outside the handful of big schools that supply most of the players.

Player welfare is a primary objective so if forwards in particular are coming into the academy without the proper coaching and training under their belts it's hard to get them match time as the jump from age grade rugby to the ravens is too high and the AIB is too low.

This is one reason why so few forwards are coming through they just aren't being prepared for the pro game through schools rugby so Ulster have to resort to recruiting players to plug the gaps.

Why is it that there is such a gap between the schools and post-schools rugby, yet year in year out we hear about the professional nature of schools like MCB with their training plans, nutrition and dedicated players turning up at 6am to train?

The prop thing is strange though as you would not really expect props to be anywhere near the finished article at 18.

UR certainly have kids coming in aged 14/15 who are in the weights room at 6.30am.

Which is fine if they are being well taught, supervised and advised. If they are not then it is a recipe for disaster.

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:Why is it that there is such a gap between the schools and post-schools rugby, yet year in year out we hear about the professional nature of schools like MCB with their training plans, nutrition and dedicated players turning up at 6am to train?

Because Methody are the exception not the rule.

I'm not sure whether it applies to Methody but I did hear from one of the former S&C coaches that the players at schools level weren't doing the right training and too many were physically unprepared to play.

By that I don't mean they weren't fit or strong but that they weren't doing the whole body training needed and thus had imbalances that left them prone to injury. Afoa made a similar comment a few seasons ago, that he was shocked at how little the academy players new about training.

MrsP wrote:The prop thing is strange though as you would not really expect props to be anywhere near the finished article at 18.

UR certainly have kids coming in aged 14/15 who are in the weights room at 6.30am.

Which is fine if they are being well taught, supervised and advised. If they are not then it is a recipe for disaster.

I think that is the crux of it - also the quality of coaching, talent id etc. isn't up to scratch outside the big schools. The regional coaches now do a session a week under the supervision of McLaughlin and Clarke but that's a recent thing.

Inst also have their Medallion team in the gym from the summer before. That's lads aged 14.

Sullivan have all their rugby players in over the summer for training.

It's what they are doing and not doing in there that is the problem.

Lifting random weights is ok at amateur/ semi pro level but in the professional game its a different kettle of fish.

The foundation and preparedness needs to have been done to ensure players a physically and technically equipped and one of the major problems McLaughlin and co are trying to address is that in too many occasions this is not the case.

It's exasperated more in forwards because of the physical demands of forward play. A practical example is that players don't have adequate hamstring strength because all they do is squats and bench press so they are not able to do the line lifting safely.

This is recent info - as in last 12 months so I presume this is still a major issue.

In relation to club rugby also, it isn't really the standard of the AIL that is the problem, but the standard of the Ulster sides in the AIL thanks to our lack of consistant representation in Division 1A.

This year Hinch were playing in the top division, and after only 1 season they look destined to be relegated again. This is a side full of our Academy and Senior players, and they have been thumped by amateurs from other the provinces.
Add to this that Dungannon and Malone both face possible relegation to Division 2A, this would leave only Ballynahinch and Harlequins as Ulster's only representatives in Division 1B next year, with no teams at the top table.

The fact is that the likes of Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy and Jack McGrath were all playing week in, week out, in Division 1A in AIL until recently. They have managed adapt quickly to provincial and international standard. If Ulster clubs had the facilties or investment to play more regularly at this level we'd have a much better pool pick from for academy places or to full squad places.

Rodders, unfortunately I think the problem is not restricted to the kids when they come into that 14/15 year old group in UR. I have concerns about the method employed with this group when they get there. Lots of injuries from training in my experience.

MrsP wrote:Rodders, unfortunately I think the problem is not restricted to the kids when they come into that 14/15 year old group in UR. I have concerns about the method employed with this group when they get there. Lots of injuries from training in my experience.

Yeah totally agree - and the previous post about the Ulster clubs versus Leinster's. 100% spot on.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1395/Injury-Update-.aspx

Injury news from Saturday, not good at all for the run in and some big games   

It will be a Herculean effort to get a home semi and I hate the thought of flogging players but for me we simply have to hump Connacht.

Court, Herring, Lutton, Henderson, Diack, ferris, Henry, Williams, Marshall, Jackson, Scholes, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Gilroy

Jeez that's a shocking list of injuries Ulster have, Bestie and Pienaar out for 6 weeks plus, Trimble gone for who knows hows long under the concussion rules. Still should make the Rabo top 4 but sure going to test the understudies. BTW, did anybody else think Herring played very well when Best went off on Saturday - hadn't seen much of him before but thought he did well in a very high pressure situation.

That beardy lad Casey also looks good down south - jeez are we raining hookers now - Cronin and Schmidt with be blues, Varley and Casey with de reds, Bestie when he's back fit and Herring with de whites and even young Harris-Wroight out west. Pity we don't have the same strength in second row, SH and centres.

Herring had a great season up until he got called up to the wolfhounds. His throwing had gone to pot in recent games but he stepped up admirably when needed AT&T he weekend

It's going to be a really tough run-in. We gambled on Ruans shoulder and lost. Now we must face the remaining four games of the league season without Best, Pienaar, Wilson and Tuohy it looks like. Best case scenario is we get the former two fit for a semi-final or final, should we not lose our place in the last four now. It could well be season over for both Best and Pienaar. It's less than 8 weeks to the final on the 31st of May.

I'm massively worried about losing Annett. Very, very worried. You need three good players for every position in the front row. Our depth in the front row is looking very poor for next season. 3rd man in each position is not great.

We need Paddy Jackson to stand up as a leader and a goal kicker in these coming weeks. We need to win our next three games so it will be up to him to steer us to wins against Glasgow and Leinster. Muller will need to be carefully managed. I hope Ferris stays fit. He'll be needed.

Just heard the injuries on radio. Shocking.


Question - Piennaar aggravated his had supposedly recovered from? Or a separate injury?


Right call or wrong call? I know that was the biggest game of the season, but now we have given ourselves a lot harder job at getting anything out of this season with him out entirely.

Best and Tuohy have had no luck this season!

I have to say Pienaars effort was one of the bravest I've ever seen ..... but maybe the call should have been made to take him off earlier or even leave him out if not fit. The problem was he was injured very early so with Payne and Rory off it would have been a huge blow but clearly he was unable to pass properly,was avoiding tackling and clearly in a lot of discomfort.

I think you have to put players welfare ahead of the result.

Is Payne going to miss some matches from the red card?

I do hope not Golden.
If there is a citing panel I am sure they will see sense and say Jared has no case to answer

To be perfectly honest, I don't think we would have been able to win the semi-final or final of the Heineken Cup with the injury list we have. At full strength, yes but not at less.

Notch wrote:To be perfectly honest, I don't think we would have been able to win the semi-final or final of the Heineken Cup with the injury list we have. At full strength, yes but not at less.

I was thinking the same, but then had Payne not been red carded there might not have been that list of injuries. Really not looking great for the run in now, but we're not completely without hope.

rodders wrote:Geoff I heard it from a reliable source - the standard of the grassroots - clubs, schools - has not  developed over the past decade and this is where the focus is now. Regional development squad have been put in place to try and increase the player base and quality outside the handful of big schools that supply most of the players.

Player welfare is a primary objective so if forwards in particular are coming into the academy without the proper coaching and training under their belts it's hard to get them match time as the jump from age grade rugby to the ravens is too high and the AIB is too low.

This is one reason why so few forwards are coming through they just aren't being prepared for the pro game through schools rugby so Ulster have to resort to recruiting players to plug the gaps.

I concur with every word of that

MrsP wrote:The prop thing is strange though as you would not really expect props to be anywhere near the finished article at 18.

We have no pros who are the finished article at 26, or even close to it.
Macklin has stagnated
McAllister was not a great scrummager when he got injured inspite of being a man mountain and have a completely professional attitude to training why?
Other come through show promise and fade

It is no coincidence that L:utton spent three years away where he learnt to prop properly

It simply isn't good enough

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:In relation to club rugby also, it isn't really the standard of the AIL that is the problem, but the standard of the Ulster sides in the AIL thanks to our lack of consistant representation in Division 1A.

.

Spot on look at the leagues 1 team in 1A and of the four teams dominating 1B none are from Ulster

That means we have 1 team in the top 14 clubs in Irish rugby - again simply not good enough

Pete330v2 wrote:I do hope not Golden.
If there is a citing panel I am sure they will see sense and say Jared has no case to answer

Was just wondering as no one had him in the team for Connacht. Thought it would be best to get him back on the pitch as soon as possible. He should be well rested anyway......

Another pretty mediocre prop has signed for Ulster;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1407/Ulster-Rugby-sign-prop-Dave-Ryan-from-Zebre.aspx

I wish him the best of luck, but it's not terribly exciting.

I'm not sure I would class Herbst as mediocre Notch. This signing is to add depth. One thing stands out is that we seem to be putting an emphasis on mobility of props

Notch wrote:Another pretty mediocre prop has signed for Ulster;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1407/Ulster-Rugby-sign-prop-Dave-Ryan-from-Zebre.aspx

I wish him the best of luck, but it's not terribly exciting.

Was he signed just because he's IQ? If not, it would seem odd to be short of prop cover and sign guys like this whilst good scrummagers like Geoff Cross head off to London Irish, having expressed a preference to stay in the north.

There is no way we were going to sign another NIQ prop.
We need signings like this because of our lack of depth.

So our props next year are:

LH: Black, Murphy, Warwick, McCall ?
TH: Herbst, Lutton, Ryan, Fitzpatrick ?

Add in Best and Herring and that could well be our 10 front row forwards in the HC sqaud next year.

The one thing I would add is calling Hebrst mediocre can only be made by someone who has not seen him play.
The guy will be good, very good, but it may take a while to settle in

I had read comments about Herbst made by Jannie du Plessis I think it was.
He regarded him very highly and said he was going to be doing great things so he didn't think Herbst was mediocre.
Murphy looks to be a pretty decent loosey from what little I've seen and was described as a pretty destructive and mobile LH. Can't remember the source though, sorry

Woah, hold on- I never meant Herbst was mediocre! I'm very excited about him. I only meant we've signed lots of mediocre tight head props in the past. Bronson Ross, Jerry Cronin, Dan Roache. Sorry for the confusion, can see how I phrased that in a misleading way.

I don't expect Herbst or Ruaidhrí Murphy to be on that list. I hope Ryan surprises me but then I said the same thing about the memorably named Bronson Ross and he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Like the Aussie Roache. Cronin I liked better, he did a job but he was no world beater either.

Geoff- is it a serious prospect that Ulster could have only two hookers in their European squad for one of the most injury prone positions on the pitch?! Surely not...

Thanks for the clarity Notch the only thing I would say is Ryan
is way way better than Roache or Ross - no comparison.

I would also put him above Cronin who did ok as a 3rd choice.

McCall has been turning out as hooker hence the ?
It would not surprise me in the least if he is both 3rd hooker and 4th LH

A decision I'm very uneasy about. Bestie pulls out the week before a big Heineken Cup game and our cover on the bench is a guy who's had a few games at hooker for the Ravens- I'd be worried to be honest!

The alternative is didching him, or Fitzpatrick leaves, hence the other ? and having one of the young kids in the squad - Murphy of Jackson.

You can say what you like about Declan Fitzpatrick, but he's performed at a higher level than Dave Ryan. If Ryan is moving above him in the pecking order, I'm concerned.

I still hope we announce the signing of a new hooker.

He will have to be an Irishman

Ryan's a sound man, works his backside off. A decent enough backup probably wouldn't want to be relying on him. Happy for them and his family that he is back in Ireland.

Payne got 2 weeks...red card upheld...
Could have been worse. Get him back in team for Leinster game...back on the horse asap as they say. I'm sure he cant be feeling too good right now...
http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28312.php#.U0VDOPmSx48

Thomond wrote:Ryan's a sound man, works his backside off. A decent enough backup probably wouldn't want to be relying on him. Happy for them and his family that he is back in Ireland.

I hope he's very happy here, hope he's successful! We could use some good news. Now we have to go to Glasgow and beat them without Payne as well as the injury list. Even Connacht could be smelling blood...

RF09 wrote:Payne got 2 weeks...red card upheld...
Could have been worse. Get him back in team for Leinster game...back on the horse asap as they say. I'm sure he cant be feeling too good right now...
http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28312.php#.U0VDOPmSx48

Probably what was expected. But now we have the ERC banning a guy for two weeks for the same challenge as SANZAR deemed was correctly dealt with by a ref giving a penalty.   

It's bucking follox if you ask me, unless us Ulster fans are more blinkered and one-eyed than we imagine. I would have bet a lot of money on Jared being cleared for this. This can of worms shall now be opened but I hope it doesn't change Jared's playing methods in any way.
ERC? Merchant bankers

The can of worms is open but if they expect this to change anything they're sadly mistaken. There is a World Cup in just over a year and between north and South, citing officers and refs have starkly different ways of dealing with it. It's perfectly set up for a cluster**** at the RWC

According to the rule they have cited, you touch a player in the air at anytime you should be up in front of a disciplinary hearing regardless of circumstance

geoff998rugby wrote:
McCall has been turning out as hooker hence the ?

Does anyone know what's happening with Jonny Murphy? He has been in the academy about the same amount of time as McCall and by this point they should be reaching the stage of their developtment where they should be ready move out of the Academy and in to full time contracts, yet Murphy has suddenly found himself edged out by McCall who is suddenly learning a new position.