The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[Guest]

"fair representation by nation"

seems pretty fair to me in the new format. each nation will probably have half its top-tier sides in the new HC, with welsh and irish sides likely to have 5 out of 8 going through.

quins...it might have passed you by yet again...but Welsh sides have absolutely no significance to me.

"5 from 8" has no meaning.  It means nothing.  

"Each Nation will probably have Half its top tier sides."

Only bit of interest in that to me is that you're saying Ireland will probably (and only probably! - not written into any contract) have Two whilst England will undoubtedly/certainly (regardless of seasonal form) have Six.
How many Wales have interests me less than indeed it perhaps interests you, as I seem to recall you saying you love Welsh/English clashes in whatever form (Club or International).

irfu will probably have 3 clubs in HC out of 3 and a half (Connacht's budget is half that of the other provinces as decreed by irfu). happy days for you then SF

Not until we get all four Provinces in. Maybe next season   

[SecretFly]

But I thought you were after helping the international sides Fly, or did you mean that you only want what's best for Ireland?

You think what you think and I'll say what I say.

Is guaranteed six for England and France, and possible though not guaranteed two for Ireland OR Wales what's 'best'?

No, it ain't.  But it's what's coming.  

What I want is what is best for Ireland.  I've never ever varied from that.  Best for Provinces in Europe and down the line, and subsequently, what's best for Ireland International.  

In order to achieve that, I say automatic six for English rugby and automatic six for French rugby does not fairly equate with automatic one for Irish rugby....

It's up to the Welsh to speak for themselves and I trust it they'll want what's 'best' for them... but them having one, two, three or even four places in Europe (as Quins alludes to) doesn't assist Irish rugby one - little - bit.  Not emotionally and certainly not structurally.  
I personally don't benefit from a Welsh side in Europe... I do benefit from any Irish Province in Europe.  It's easy maths.

Does that selfishness suggest I want to steal some of the auto places in Europe from Scotland, Italy or Wales?  No, and therefore your other line about helping International sides stands.  Yeah, I want what's best for Ireland but not at the expense of other Nations.

Can PRL and it's fans say the same?  I don't think so.

[Poorfour]

We do in fact have a tournament where each union has equal qualification and representation. It is called the Six Nations. If you weren't aware of it, I'd recommend watching it. It's quite good most years and the next one will be starting in about 10 months' time.

To expect equal representation at any level below this is unrealistic and unachievable. Equal numbers of teams would not be equal representation because the distribution of international players is different in different countries. Equal proportions of teams is closer, but would create a situation where Wales or Ireland could fill the top 4 places in the Rabo and still only have two teams qualify.

The current compromise guarantees some representation from each nation and should on average see 50% participation from each. It's about as close to a balance as you can get without proposing something that would force an artificial and damaging restructuring of one or more domestic leagues.

[ME-109]

We do in fact have a tournament where each union has equal qualification and representation. It is called the Six Nations. If you weren't aware of it, I'd recommend watching it. It's quite good most years and the next one will be starting in about 10 months' time.

To expect equal representation at any level below this is unrealistic and unachievable. Equal numbers of teams would not be equal representation because the distribution of international players is different in different countries. Equal proportions of teams is closer, but would create a situation where Wales or Ireland could fill the top 4 places in the Rabo and still only have two teams qualify.

The current compromise guarantees some representation from each nation and should on average see 50% participation from each. It's about as close to a balance as you can get without proposing something that would force an artificial and damaging restructuring of one or more domestic leagues.

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - because that last post made as much sense as the word.

[Scrumpy]

I can honestly say after reading a number of views and opinions from Celtic fans expressed on sites such as this that I no longer give a flying duck what happens to you once the new EuroComp is up and running.

I couldn't care less if I never see another Euro cup (top level) game between Zebre v Glasgow or Newport v Connacht or Cardiff v Ulster.

[No 7&1/2]

But I thought you were after helping the international sides Fly, or did you mean that you only want what's best for Ireland?

You think what you think and I'll say what I say.

Is guaranteed six for England and France, and possible though not guaranteed two for Ireland OR Wales what's 'best'?

No, it ain't.  But it's what's coming.  

What I want is what is best for Ireland.  I've never ever varied from that.  Best for Provinces in Europe and down the line, and subsequently, what's best for Ireland International.  

In order to achieve that, I say automatic six for English rugby and automatic six for French rugby does not fairly equate with automatic one for Irish rugby....

It's up to the Welsh to speak for themselves and I trust it they'll want what's 'best' for them... but them having one, two, three or even four places in Europe (as Quins alludes to) doesn't assist Irish rugby one - little - bit.  Not emotionally and certainly not structurally.  
I personally don't benefit from a Welsh side in Europe... I do benefit from any Irish Province in Europe.  It's easy maths.

Does that selfishness suggest I want to steal some of the auto places in Europe from Scotland, Italy or Wales?  No, and therefore your other line about helping International sides stands.  Yeah, I want what's best for Ireland but not at the expense of other Nations.

Can PRL and it's fans say the same?  I don't think so.

But best for Ireland is not necessarily best for everybody else. Best to think about it as a club comp and forget internationals imo. Like i said though not particularly bothered how it turns out as I'll watch it all the same; just interested in the view.

[Guest]

I can honestly say after reading a number of views and opinions from Celtic fans expressed on sites such as this that I no longer give a flying duck what happens to you once the new EuroComp is up and running.

I couldn't care less if I never see another Euro cup (top level) game between Zebre v Glasgow or Newport v Connacht or Cardiff v Ulster.

  

[ME-109]

I can honestly say after reading a number of views and opinions from Celtic fans expressed on sites such as this that I no longer give a flying duck what happens to you once the new EuroComp is up and running.

I couldn't care less if I never see another Euro cup (top level) game between Zebre v Glasgow or Newport v Connacht or Cardiff v Ulster.

You are forgetting the plucky underdogs like Northampton against Leinster given the hammering they took the previous week or Gloucester against Munster, Exeter chiefs etc..now we will have possible also rans like Barf in the competition...dragging down the quality

[SecretFly]

We do in fact have a tournament where each union has equal qualification and representation. It is called the Six Nations. If you weren't aware of it, I'd recommend watching it.

Yes...and the same could have been achieved at Club Level...Easily - if there was a will that wanted to go a certain way.  
As it stands, the more participation you enjoy, the bigger the chances of you winning, the more kudos you get from winning, the more you attract sponsorhsip, the more you attract best players, the more you stay at the top, the more you win, the more you participate etc...etc

Being in means others suffer the consequences.  What part of that don't you get when I mention Automatic six versus automatic one?
What part of suicide should we others, who aren't English or French, respect more?  Because it seems that's the taunt often - "why don't you guys see the benefits of suicide?"

[Notch]

We do in fact have a tournament where each union has equal qualification and representation. It is called the Six Nations. If you weren't aware of it, I'd recommend watching it. It's quite good most years and the next one will be starting in about 10 months' time.

To expect equal representation at any level below this is unrealistic and unachievable. Equal numbers of teams would not be equal representation because the distribution of international players is different in different countries. Equal proportions of teams is closer, but would create a situation where Wales or Ireland could fill the top 4 places in the Rabo and still only have two teams qualify.

The current compromise guarantees some representation from each nation and should on average see 50% participation from each. It's about as close to a balance as you can get without proposing something that would force an artificial and damaging restructuring of one or more domestic leagues.

Fully equal representation shouldn't be our goal. A situation where 2 nations have 33% of the teams each, and 4 nations have 33% of the teams between them- clearly that shouldn't be our goal!!

We didn't have equal representation before this, we basically had a fair balance of representation. The tournament has been reduced in size and all four places have come from one league. It will never be accepted as a fair decision.

[Scrumpy]

I can honestly say after reading a number of views and opinions from Celtic fans expressed on sites such as this that I no longer give a flying duck what happens to you once the new EuroComp is up and running.

I couldn't care less if I never see another Euro cup (top level) game between Zebre v Glasgow or Newport v Connacht or Cardiff v Ulster.

You are forgetting the plucky underdogs like Northampton against Leinster given the hammering they took the previous week or Gloucester against Munster, Exeter chiefs etc..now we will have possible also rans like Barf in the competition...dragging down the quality

  

As long as we have 6 automatic places in the euro cup whocares    £££££££££s.....

[quinsforever]

by you. i think it's fair.

its a quid pro quo

if you want english and french money, you have to play in a framework they are willing to participate in

[Poorfour]

You think what you think and I'll say what I say.

Is guaranteed six for England and France, and possible though not guaranteed two for Ireland OR Wales what's 'best'?

No, it ain't.  But it's what's coming.  

What I want is what is best for Ireland.  I've never ever varied from that.  Best for Provinces in Europe and down the line, and subsequently, what's best for Ireland International.  

In order to achieve that, I say automatic six for English rugby and automatic six for French rugby does not fairly equate with automatic one for Irish rugby....

It's up to the Welsh to speak for themselves and I trust it they'll want what's 'best' for them... but them having one, two, three or even four places in Europe (as Quins alludes to) doesn't assist Irish rugby one - little - bit.  Not emotionally and certainly not structurally.  
I personally don't benefit from a Welsh side in Europe... I do benefit from any Irish Province in Europe.  It's easy maths.

Does that selfishness suggest I want to steal some of the auto places in Europe from Scotland, Italy or Wales?  No, and therefore your other line about helping International sides stands.  Yeah, I want what's best for Ireland but not at the expense of other Nations.

Can PRL and it's fans say the same?  I don't think so.

Hang on a minute. If we can't say it, then neither can you. The previous arrangement was best for Ireland and did so at the expense of other Nations. Indisputably. Ireland had a minimum of 75% of its teams qualify, versus a maximum for England of 58% and France of 50%. Ireland were supporting the cost of entering 4 teams in European competition on 17% of the total competition revenue, whereas England and France were supporting the cost of entering 12 or 14 teams respectively on 24% of the revenue each.

This is the situation that you have argued in favour of perpetuating. Do not spin us a line about not disadvantaging other nations.

If Ireland were in a position to support 12 domestic teams, you'd have a case for having 6 qualification slots. But it's not. Your union has thrown in its lot with the other Rabo unions - and that's to your advantage, because the alternative would be a subscale domestic league, but it also has consequences. One of those consequences is that the people who run the other leagues that are contributing in the tournament will view that collective endeavour as a league first and a collection of unions second, because that's how it works commercially.

Suppose I said: "I'm a Londoner first and foremost. I support the four London teams. The proposed qualification system is not fair and disadvantages the London teams. They don't even have a single guaranteed place! This qualification system doesn't help me one bit." It's a ridiculous stance, but it's also not all that far removed from yours.

[munkian]

I can honestly say after reading a number of views and opinions from Celtic fans expressed on sites such as this that I no longer give a flying duck what happens to you once the new EuroComp is up and running.

I couldn't care less if I never see another Euro cup (top level) game between Zebre v Glasgow or Newport v Connacht or Cardiff v Ulster.

This post suggests you've actually watched a Rabbo game, your 'knowledge' of the league suggests you haven't.

I'm sure all 4 nations will mourn the loss of a Bath fan, black armbands all round, tearing of shirts, gnashing of teeth etc   

[SecretFly]

As long as we have 6 automatic places in the euro cup whocares    £££££££££s.....

That's more like it!!! That's the spirit, Scrumpy. And more wins too. You forgot that addition. More wins are on the cards now too tobejimpty!!!! It's "Tally Ho, you Rotters!" the whole way from here.

[Scrumpy]

Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves   

[andyi]

Its a club competition not a Union one

According to The Breakdown email, the Six Nations Co. is running the tournament (i.e., the Unions). They also say that: ''FFR pledging not to hijack the vote of the Top 14 on matters it considers to be of national interest''. This suggests to me that the Unions are running this competition.

There will be a commericial committee (based in Switzerland) which will have 1 rep each from the 3 leagues. Craig from PRL, and someone from IRFU for Pro12 (no mention of who the LNR rep will be), with an independent Chair from the business world.

Not too sure how well the Welsh regions have come out of this, but I suppose they will be just happy they will get the cash.

There not. If you read the Guardian email it clearly states that the 6N committee is responsible for Governance such as Rules, Regs and Refs etc.

The 4 man (1 from each league and an independent chairman) commercial committee is running all the Money stuff. That is the stuff the clubs really wanted (along with qualification which has been agreed)

The clubs (via that committee) will negotiate all the deals and divy out the money to the 3 leagues. How the 3 leagues split that between their own members is their own business.

The leagues (clubs) wanted to control the Money and they do!

[BigTrevsbigmac]

It's too late for the 'no surrender' approach. Thank goodness there is finally agreement amongst the parties involved in the negotiation.

I would like & hope the majority of rugby fans are happy to move on from this argument between apples and pears etc etc etc.

Thankful that we can again see a great European Club competition continue.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves   

Shame you won't have quite as shiny big new stadium as you thought, Scumpy

[Scrumpy]

Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves   

Shame you won't have quite as shiny big new stadium as you thought, Scumpy

All the existing plans were based on our current footprint on the site, just means the Prawn sandwich and Champers bar will have to be a bit smaller.   

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

As we both know, the problem appears to be the height - I can see that lovely man Bruce throwing his teddies over this one

[Ozzy3213]

Good to see the daft/pointless arguing over Europe is still going strong!

[quinsforever]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

[Scrumpy]

I just don't get why people don't like Bruce?

[wayne]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

And we did (RRW)

[ME-109]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

[Ozzy3213]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

Touche!

[Scrumpy]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

Thats true not on that unlevel playing field!   

  

[Ozzy3213]

As witty retorts go, sorry Scrumpy, but yours was rubbish there.

[Scrumpy]

Fair enough that wasn't the best, I posted some crackers earlier mind!

[HammerofThunor]

Any chance of us getting the 5 union tournament that TJ promised us or is this thing definitely going ahead?

Also, has it been released that the Regions get two auto places? Waiting to congratulate LordDowlais on that one.

[Guest]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

And we did (RRW)

Still possible that RRW will be represented with just the one team in next seasons competition. Yes, RRW won....

Still, there's always the Rabo to enjoy   

[SecretFly]

Hang on a minute.

Suppose I said: "I'm a Londoner first and foremost. I support the four London teams. The proposed qualification system is not fair and disadvantages the London teams. They don't even have a single guaranteed place! This qualification system doesn't help me one bit." It's a ridiculous stance, but it's also not all that far removed from yours.

Hang on a minute!!!  You enjoy the fruits of 12 teams in a League and Six teams in Europe.... (example being this 6N tour of duty by England)  

BUT..........If you wanted to do a real comparison on it, you'd have to accuse me of saying something like this:

"I'm a Leinsterman bred and born.  I support Leinster to the hilt and hate them basterauds down in Munster - especially the 606 ones who make me cry with the cheeky one-liners and sneering beauties of put-down wisdom.  I also hate Ulster because they are orange lads mostly who talk about bowler hats, sashes and marches up roads and back again.  And I hate Connacht because it has two Ns and lives mostly by the Ocean.  
If Ireland is to have only one guaranteed entry then that should always be Leinster because we have Dublin, the capital city, we have the Government, we have most TV aerials and satelite dishes, we have the zoo, the fancy buildings, the rich folk on Killiney Hill, the accents, the stadiums and the great European history with three stars on our jersey.  If Munster or Ulster or Connacht beat us to the top of the hill in Pro12 then a sub-European law of most bums on seats should take effect and Leinster should still take the single Auto spot - allowing the other three to watch us do the biz on their behalf."

Yet I don't say all that of course............................ but I do think it!    

[ME-109]

Hang on a minute.

Suppose I said: "I'm a Londoner first and foremost. I support the four London teams. The proposed qualification system is not fair and disadvantages the London teams. They don't even have a single guaranteed place! This qualification system doesn't help me one bit." It's a ridiculous stance, but it's also not all that far removed from yours.

Hang on a minute!!!  You enjoy the fruits of 12 teams in a League and Six teams in Europe.... (example being this 6N tour of duty by England)  

BUT..........If you wanted to do a real comparison on it, you'd have to accuse me of saying something like this:

"I'm a Leinsterman bred and born.  I support Leinster to the hilt and hate them basterauds down in Munster - especially the 606 ones who make me cry with the cheeky one-liners and sneering beauties of put-down wisdom.  I also hate Ulster because they are orange lads mostly who talk about bowler hats, sashes and marches up roads and back again.  And I hate Connacht because it has two Ns and lives mostly by the Ocean.  
If Ireland is to have only one guaranteed entry then that should always be Leinster because we have Dublin, the capital city, we have the Government, we have most TV aerials and satelite dishes, we have the zoo, the fancy buildings, the rich folk on Killiney Hill, the accents, the stadiums and the great European history with three stars on our jersey.  If Munster or Ulster or Connacht beat us to the top of the hill in Pro12 then a sub-European law of most bums on seats should take effect and Leinster should still take the single Auto spot - allowing the other three to watch us do the biz on their behalf."

Yet I don't say all that of course............................ but I do think it!    

You don't have an Opera House though...   

[quinsforever]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

English clubs having 22 other matches in a meaningful domestic league without resting key players has definitely contributed to underperformance at HC in the last 5 years.

happily now the Rabo has something to fight for with the new qualification criteria.

[SecretFly]

Fair enough that wasn't the best, I posted some crackers earlier mind!

That's actually a good one in itself

[SecretFly]

You don't have an Opera House though...   

We have a giant needle (without an eye) that......................... well, that............................. you know.... it represents things and stuff....

[munkian]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

English clubs having 22 other matches in a meaningful domestic league without resting key players has definitely contributed to underperformance at HC in the last 5 years.

happily now the Rabo has something to fight for with the new qualification criteria.

Yup, Quins def put out their best side against the Saracens didn't they....

[wayne]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

And we did (RRW)

Still possible that RRW will be represented with just the one team in next seasons competition. Yes, RRW won....

Still, there's always the Rabo to enjoy   

If that is all we get through a meritocratic competition so be it, We are getting more money and NOT controlled by the WRU, you are still under the impression we wanted out of the Rabo, as has been illustrated the joining with the AP was a fall back position, all that is needed now is for the new Celtitalian League to be also based in Switzerland

[quinsforever]

yes, england's consistently best players throughout the 6N were a tad tired and had already been told they were going to be rested. nothing to do with the heineken cup though.

[SecretFly]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

Well English teams were never going to win playing rugby   

English clubs having 22 other matches in a meaningful domestic league without resting key players has definitely contributed to underperformance at HC in the last 5 years.

happily now the Rabo has something to fight for with the new qualification criteria.

Don't play in it if you don't think highly enough of it to rest players for it, quins???  Might that be the moral?

As for the Rabo and something to fight for?  Yep, our 3rd stringers has us at.................... well, go look at the table, it's the same as most years when 3rd stringers have been played in many games.

[quinsforever]

ah yes, but you might need to put out your 2nd team when the other teams are scrapping for their own qualification...

[munkian]

yes, england's consistently best players throughout the 6N were a tad tired and had already been told they were going to be rested. nothing to do with the heineken cup though.

Yet the Rabbo sides put out teams with International players for a 'meaningless' league match. Sit down, you're embarrassing yourself.

[Scrumpy]

I think the Rabo has something going for it now, I also think attendances will improve too.

Win win.

[SecretFly]

Nah...it'll still be a 3rd string competition, Scrumpy - and apologies in advance.

[quinsforever]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

look at the whole season. this one and past ones. you can claim saturday's quins match as proof that the rabo dont rest their key players, but it's obvious how backwards that is. the facts speak for themselves. sexton has already played more matches for racing than in any previous provincial season. just a single example. poor chap has been complaining he's a bit tired...

[SecretFly]

And the point is, Quins? Sexton more gametime, Team shyte in Europe, no play-offs for him this season.

What's the point?

[Guest]

the argument is over. we won. the crying over spilt milk continues

And we did (RRW)

Still possible that RRW will be represented with just the one team in next seasons competition. Yes, RRW won....

Still, there's always the Rabo to enjoy   

If that is all we get through a meritocratic competition so be it, We are getting more money and NOT controlled by the WRU, you are still under the impression we wanted out of the Rabo, as has been illustrated the joining with the AP was a fall back position, all that is needed now is for the new Celtitalian League to be also based in Switzerland

More money? How much would one team pull in from Europe? I'm not saying you will only have the one. Just that there is that potential, as with Ireland of course. Any increase in money is relative to that which others receive though isn't it? As a percentage the RRW have actually accepted less. Much less, and as the European pot increases the gap in money terms widens between PRL and the four Rabo unions.

I'm not under the impression that RRW wanted out of Rabo. I never was. It was the RRW fans that were crying to get out, and be with their friends in AP, and it was them that were under the false impression that it was likely.

The Celtic league based in Switzerland? Why?

[munkian]

What facts ?

It was a fact that Quins rested key players against the Saracens in a big derby game.

Its a fact that international players played for their clubs in the Rabbo last weekend.

You make sweeping statements about a league you probably don't even watch and call them facts

Are you seriously suggesting ALL Rabbo teams have such huge squads and strength in depth that they can afford to rest 'key players' for extended periods of time ?

[quinsforever]

fly, go read Notch's reasonable and sensible post on why irfu players get more rest. it's not up for debate that it happens. same with wru and sru (laidlaw!).

i could come up with 50 examples but why bother. you'll still deny it happens, or when presented with the fact, ask what's the point, maybe the rfu should do the same. but that misses the key point that english and french clubs are independent.

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