The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:59 am

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them. I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.

how dare us Celts and Italians go ahead and make decisions without telling anybody in another country who as sweet fook all to do with anything.

Remember Lord we share the same Anthem, GSTQ! Wink

I didn't see it mentioned on Scrum V.

by LordDowlais Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:58 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them. I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.

how dare us Celts and Italians go ahead and make decisions without telling anybody in another country who as sweet fook all to do with anything.

Remember Lord we share the same Anthem, GSTQ!

I didn't see it mentioned on Scrum V.

Well, it was on there, along with them not having to pay the extortionate entry fees anymore as well. Also what has GSTQ got to do with the Rabo. Laugh

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:00 pm

I could explain it to you Lord, but I can't be bothered. Wink

by geoff998rugby Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:01 pm

Scrumpy scrumpy not the old weaken team myth again...

France teams rest players because they must win games at home
English teams rotate players
Pro12 teams field weakened teams.

A piece of nonsense often quoted but NEVER back up with hard facts

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:04 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Scrumpy scrumpy not the old weaken team myth again...

France teams rest players because they must win games at home
English teams rotate players
Pro12 teams field weakened teams.

A piece of nonsense often quoted but NEVER back up with hard facts

Apart from nearly every Rabo team sheet pre Christmas, I'm glad we finally get to see some Rabo 1st teams now that the season finally starts to heats up post 6 Nations. Wink

by Irish Londoner Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:09 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Scrumpy scrumpy not the old weaken team myth again...

France teams rest players because they must win games at home
English teams rotate players
Pro12 teams field weakened teams.

A piece of nonsense often quoted but NEVER back up with hard facts

Apart from nearly every Rabo team sheet pre Christmas, I'm glad we finally get to see some Rabo 1st teams now that the season finally starts to heats up post 6 Nations.

You mean like the full strength side Harlequins sent out last Saturday at Wembley? Must have been dissapointing for the kiddiwinks that their England heroes were not playing Whistle

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:13 pm

Or indeed the side sent up to Allianz Park by Scrumpy's Bath Whistle

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:16 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Scrumpy scrumpy not the old weaken team myth again...

France teams rest players because they must win games at home
English teams rotate players
Pro12 teams field weakened teams.

A piece of nonsense often quoted but NEVER back up with hard facts

Apart from nearly every Rabo team sheet pre Christmas, I'm glad we finally get to see some Rabo 1st teams now that the season finally starts to heats up post 6 Nations.

You mean like the full strength side Harlequins sent out last Saturday at Wembley? Must have been dissapointing for the kiddiwinks that their England heroes were not playing

A poor decision and the wrong one imo, thankfully not all teams act like that in the Aviva.

What Nationality is the Quins boss who took that poor decision btw?

by SecretFly Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:18 pm

He's the same Nationality he was when he helped choose Lancaster for England.

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:23 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Or indeed the side sent up to Allianz Park by Scrumpy's Bath

Again,

What Nationality was the Bath boss who took that poor decision btw?.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Pretty sure Mike Ford is a blue-blooded jolly English fellow

by SecretFly Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:30 pm

Yeah..Oldham, isn't it?

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:31 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Pretty sure Mike Ford is a blue-blooded jolly English fellow

But he wasn't the boss for the trip to the plastic pitch!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:33 pm

Pretty sure he was, Scumpy - poor old Gold had been kicked upstairs and was struggling to define what that position even was - selection with Ford

by Scrumpy Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:38 pm

Not at that point, Gold still had the final say.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:03 pm

Is there straw clutching going on here?

Scrumpy..even you don't believe the idea that you always play your best players. It can never work unless you only have 15 realistic players to work with in the first place, like some lower standard sides might be laboured with. But if you have a squad of some 40 players, then you have to manage that squad, keep them interested, keep giving rookies a try out, keep consolidating the idea of a squad developing all the while rather than 23 undroppables.

by Brendan Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:17 pm

One of the problems sarries has had this season is that nearly all the top teams have sent weakened teams to play them. Tigers was one but i can't remember where their coach is from.

considering leinster had 18 players in the irish squad with more who have proved themselves well capable of top euro level a weakened leinster team is more than a match for any team outside the top teams in europe.

rabo squads usually have a higher squad player strenght compared to aviva.

also didn't glaws rest their first team v munster while Sarries rested the weak before a HC game. We will see more of these next year in all leagues esp the welsh as they fight to get into the top six

by Sin é Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:29 pm

Deal is off. FFR not happy.

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 8m #EuropeanRugbyChampionsCup FFR will not sign any agreement. They want the BT/Sky situation to be crystal clear. And it is not

by **Notch** Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:48 pm

At this stage it's pretty much all down to the TV companies. How moronic is it that we've let the TV rights deal come to this. Selling some game to BT before there was even a tournament. Idiotic.

by nathan Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:57 pm

Notch wrote:At this stage it's pretty much all down to the TV companies. How moronic is it that we've let the TV rights deal come to this. Selling some game to BT before there was even a tournament. Idiotic.

Or ERC selling the rights to a competition involving English/French teams that have already served notice.

by Feckless Rogue Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:58 pm

Bah, that bloody BT deal. Why oh why didn't PRL come to their partners and say BT are interested, let's collectively sell the rights to the highest bidder. They still also could have said "only if we get our structural changes otherwise we're not taking part". Idiotic is the only word for this murky BT deal.

by nathan Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:00 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Bah, that bloody BT deal. Why oh why didn't PRL come to their partners and say BT are interested, let's collectively sell the rights to the highest bidder. They still also could have said "only if we get our structural changes otherwise we're not taking part". Idiotic is the only word for this murky BT deal.

What would that of solved, it's crystal clear the ERC didn't want any change and nor did any of the other partners.

by nathan Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:05 pm

Sin é wrote:Deal is off. FFR not happy.

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 8m #EuropeanRugbyChampionsCup FFR will not sign any agreement. They want the BT/Sky situation to be crystal clear. And it is not

Also it's a little odd to come to that conclusion that the deal is off. Simply means they won't sign untill the BT/Sky situation i sorted, so it's delayed and not off at all.

by Feckless Rogue Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:18 pm

Hopefully nathan

by Sin é Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:25 pm

nathan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Deal is off. FFR not happy.

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 8m #EuropeanRugbyChampionsCup FFR will not sign any agreement. They want the BT/Sky situation to be crystal clear. And it is not

Also it's a little odd to come to that conclusion that the deal is off. Simply means they won't sign untill the BT/Sky situation i sorted, so it's delayed and not off at all.

The deal was due to be signed yesterday/today. Its not, so as far as I can see the deal is off.

This could also be the French putting the screw on the RFU once and for all as I'd say if any of the other Unions were prepared to go ahead and sign, there must not be too much wrong with it.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:35 pm

Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:41 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

Much like the Pro 12 were wary of being screwed by their ~~partners~~ masters in the AP....... Smile

by HammerofThunor Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:43 pm

Maybe we'll fill another thread before this is all sorted after all. I had hopes based on Scrumpy's contributions this afternoon but that seemed to have littered out. Come on TJ, we need you.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Back to the beginning of the circle then?

I see it's already begun.

PRL idiots for signing a deal they didn't have the right to sign

NO!

ERC idiots for signing a deal they didn't have the right to sign

Next line is usually some balanced soul suggesting that maybe the two of them were wrong? And maybe everyone IS wrong and nobody should be blaming anybody else because everybody was just doing what was in the interests of themselves and not concerned with nobody else because they had the right to look out for themselves and shouldn't be blamed for everything because that's not fair and what everyone needed was a fair competition but nobody would listen to reason so some of them had to take the bull by the horns and fight for their rights but are now getting criticised just because they wouldn't be bullied into doing something they didn't want to do! And it's not FAIR!!!!!!!!!..................................

and.................. *deep breath* - well, there you go. I've done the balancing act comment this time.

Who is going to do the "Deal is on again!" bit?

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

Much like the Pro 12 were wary of being screwed by their ~~partners~~ masters in the AP.......

No, very different, about 3million yoyos different in pro12 and so much more in ERC.

by SecretFly Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:50 pm

BTW... I blame the Regions..................... getting my word in early on them. They always get a mention when the guaranteed signing ceremonies don't happen.

"It's today!!!"

"Well.................... maybe tomorrow - a few more details to be worked out"

"Deal to be signed next week - RFU Chief handles it all so well. Smooth running."

"New Deal looks likely sometime next month if everyone can agree to anything, which seems unlikely because one party doesn't seem to trust anyone"

"THE REGIONS scupper Deal!!!! - and demand to be let join Top14!!"

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:53 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

Rugby really is going the soccer route.

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:56 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

Much like the Pro 12 were wary of being screwed by their ~~partners~~ masters in the AP.......

No, very different, about 3million yoyos different in pro12 and so much more in ERC.

You misunderstood. I was referring to the proposed new deal.

by Sin é Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:14 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

I think the issue by be whether the 20m is split per union or per team. The Welsh Regions want it split per club, the Italians obviously would like it split per Union. The Welsh and Irish are the ones who will be hardest hit if its per Unions.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:28 am

A report of the TV deal from link from ESPN:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10725732/First-call-for-BT-over-Sky-Sports-on-games-in-European-club-rugbys-brave-new-era-next-season.html

Key points:
BT get first dibs at English Pool games

No ERC officials will go to jail

by geoff998rugby Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:35 am

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Different story in the Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/26/heineken-cup-deal-delay-italians-cash

Seems the Italians are wary of being screwed by their celtic ~~masters~~ partners in pro12.

Nope

Pro12 agreement was signed a few weeks back.
Trouble is the Italians had an expectation of getting a 1/4 of the Pro12 money - the Scots and Irish agreed with them but it seems the Welsh dug their heels in and said it should be per team in the Pro12 and thus halved the Italian money

Don't tar us all with the same brush

by munkian Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:37 am

I blame the Dragons, we are clearly delaying things as BT and Sky are still fighting over who gets to show our games Cool

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:42 am

munkian wrote:I blame the Dragons, we are clearly delaying things as BT and Sky are still fighting over who gets to show our games

Except the Tellygraf report indicates that it has been sorted 'amicably' (my word).

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:04 am

If the broadcasting settlement report is correct, I wonder when the practical, structural competition arrangements will be announced?

The devil is always in the detail...

by Scrumpy Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:23 am

I wish Sky would just sod off and leave rugby alone, BT have made the game more popular in England and they haven't even been around for a year yet.

Just think what they could do for the game in Europe, I think all of us should say thank you to BT for breathing new life into our game. Very Happy

by geoff998rugby Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:44 am

How do we know? - PRL and BT refused to tell everyone else what they have agreed - hence the French not being happy.

Also, as a word of caution, there is a world of difference between aspiration income and actual income

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:02 am

Scrumpy wrote:I wish Sky would just sod off and leave rugby alone, BT have made the game more popular in England and they haven't even been around for a year yet.

Just think what they could do for the game in Europe, I think all of us should say thank you to BT for breathing new life into our game.

Hardly a valid test, Scumpy - if you give something away for free, of course folks will be interested. It's whether they'll still be around in a few years time when they have to start paying that will be the acid test

by Scrumpy Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:03 am

"At the end of the day this isn't good news for just the English clubs, or the French clubs, or the Welsh regions, it's good news for European rugby.

"We've got a competition with a fairer format and with a fairer financial distribution, and in fact there's no reason why this format won't actually generate more money for everyone.

"So it is truly a win, win, win competition and I think once the egos got out of the way it was fairly easy to find a solution.

"At the end of the day it's our responsibility as rugby administrators is to put the best possible competition on the table for the coaches and players to play in and the supporters to watch."

Edward Griffiths
Saracens chief executive

Couldn't agree more.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:05 am

Scrumpy wrote:"At the end of the day this isn't good news for just the English clubs, or the French clubs, or the Welsh regions, it's good news for European rugby.

"We've got a competition with a fairer format and with a fairer financial distribution, and in fact there's no reason why this format won't actually generate more money for everyone.

"So it is truly a win, win, win competition and I think once the egos got out of the way it was fairly easy to find a solution.

"At the end of the day it's our responsibility as rugby administrators is to put the best possible competition on the table for the coaches and players to play in and the supporters to watch."

Edward Griffiths
Saracens chief executive

Couldn't agree more.

Not sure you could have chosen a worse advocate tbh Headscratch

by Scrumpy Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:08 am

Why is that?

by beshocked Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:14 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:"At the end of the day this isn't good news for just the English clubs, or the French clubs, or the Welsh regions, it's good news for European rugby.

"We've got a competition with a fairer format and with a fairer financial distribution, and in fact there's no reason why this format won't actually generate more money for everyone.

"So it is truly a win, win, win competition and I think once the egos got out of the way it was fairly easy to find a solution.

"At the end of the day it's our responsibility as rugby administrators is to put the best possible competition on the table for the coaches and players to play in and the supporters to watch."

Edward Griffiths
Saracens chief executive

Couldn't agree more.

Not sure you could have chosen a worse advocate tbh

Disagree alasbut100ofus. Surely it makes sense that one of the most outspoken CEOs has his say.

I would rather my club has a voice even if people disagree with it than none at all.

Would be interesting to see hear the CEOs of Quins and Gloucester for example have their say on matters. I couldn't tell you who they are.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:17 am

Edward Griffiths should just STFU.

He has got pretty much what he wanted at the negotiating table, now he wants to rub people's noses in it. It is possible to win with grace and honour, or you can do this.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:20 am

Asbo wrote:Not sure you could have chosen a worse advocate tbh Headscratch

Very diplomatically put, As.

Some of these PRL representatives/owners appear to be self-seeking, snarling assassins.

I entirely agree with the likes of Fly and Notch and others that rugby is now set on a path similar to footy.

Any money generated will I suspect be ploughed into player/agents' wage inflation.

Sport in professional rugby is now a distant, receding memory.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:20 am

'Tis not the Griffiths way, LT

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:21 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Asbo wrote:Not sure you could have chosen a worse advocate tbh Headscratch

Very diplomatically put, As.

Some of these PRL representatives/owners appear to be self-seeking, snarling assassins.

I entirely agree with the likes of Fly and Notch and others that rugby is now set on a path similar to footy.

Any money generated will I suspect be ploughed into player/agents' wage inflation.

Sport in professional rugby is now a distant, receding memory.

True, it has a distinctive feel of business first, and sport second now

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