The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:59 am

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:42 pm

The Pro12 unions did, clearly. Perhaps that was the cost of the 7th spot.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:47 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The Pro12 unions did, clearly. Perhaps that was the cost of the 7th spot.

It is totally ridiculous. I persume they are getting compensated in some sort of way as that is a huge amount of money they are throwing away.

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:48 pm

They should never have agreed to whoever proposed it. It's a sop. An huge, and unfair, advantage to the home teams. So much for merit eh...

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:They should never have agreed to whoever proposed it. It's a sop. An huge, and unfair, advantage to the home teams. So much for merit eh...

Especially when you consider how bad in general the French teams are away from home. I would say Connacht could easily take Bordeaux at home for example.

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:57 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Munchkin wrote:They should never have agreed to whoever proposed it. It's a sop. An huge, and unfair, advantage to the home teams. So much for merit eh...
Especially when you consider how bad in general the French teams are away from home. I would say Connacht could easily take Bordeaux at home for example.

You would have to question the sportsmanship of whoever it was pushing for home advantage:

"..um ok, we will agree to a play off spot for a Rabo team, but only if we can have permanent home advantage. You know...just to help ensure our teams win...oh...and take the biggest slice of money"

Would any fans really want this?

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:00 am

Come on guys. It's all a negotiation and that was the outcome. Everyone obviously agreed to it but that doesn't mean anyone likes it.

Pretty sure the home playoff for 20th spot was quid pro quo for auto 7th rabo qualification.

U can't really complain about it as it's obviously the best deal the rabo unions felt they were able to get

by Engine#4 Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 am

I agree, it's a bit of a farce. It's also a bit embarrassing for the clubs who will benefit from it. As a fan I always hope for home advantage but being guaranteed it because of some arbitrary rule based on what league my team is in would make winning feel a bit hollow.

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:05 am

quins, I just don't understand why anyone would make that a condition in sport. It makes a mockery of qualification. I don't just blame the numpties who pushed for this, but also those numpties who accepted it.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:06 am

quinsforever wrote:Come on guys. It's all a negotiation and that was the outcome. Everyone obviously agreed to it but that doesn't mean anyone likes it.

Pretty sure the home playoff for 20th spot was quid pro quo for auto 7th rabo qualification.

U can't really complain about it as it's obviously the best deal the rabo unions felt they were able to get

Of course the mid table Rabo teams can complain. Firstly because they don't even get the chance to be in the playoff this year and the massive amount of money they are losing out on by never getting a chance to host one of these games that are an almost a guaranteed sell out. Its a simple case of letting the rich get richer.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:11 am

The rfu and prl pushed for 6/6/6

Getting a 7th rabo spot was obviously in exhange for the 20th spot being heavily weighted towards AP/top14

Personally I would have excluded rabo from that 20th spot forever. 2-leg playoff between 7th AP and 7th top14.

Can't really see why any Irish fans are complaining at all.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:15 am

Rabo teams should consider themselves lucky to be in playoffs from 2015. When was the last time any welsh, or scots teams filled their stadia for an HC match anyway?

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:16 am

quinsforever wrote:The rfu and prl pushed for 6/6/6

Getting a 7th rabo spot was obviously in exhange for the 20th spot being heavily weighted towards AP/top14

Personally I would have excluded rabo from that 20th spot forever. 2-leg playoff between 7th AP and 7th top14.

Can't really see why any Irish fans are complaining at all.

You're really not getting the point, quins. The fact that some idiot thinks a permanent home advantage over Rabo teams in play offs is a good idea hasn't the first clue about the nature of sport, or any insight into the mindset of fans. It's pathetic.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:20 am

I agree

Should have been 6/6/6 with 1 spot for previous winner and 1 for Amlin

Rabo teams shouldn't even be allowed into 20th spot playoffs - they already have 7 spots ffs

by kunu Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:21 am

Munchkin wrote:
You're really not getting the point, quins. The fact that some idiot thinks a permanent home advantage over Rabo teams in play offs is a good idea hasn't the first clue about the nature of sport, or any insight into the mindset of fans. It's pathetic.

Agreed. It's all quite depressing really.

by **Notch** Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:21 am

quinsforever wrote:Rabo teams should consider themselves lucky to be in playoffs from 2015. When was the last time any welsh, or scots teams filled their stadia for an HC match anyway?

But if it's a playoff make it a fair playoff. Draw for home advantage. Otherwise don't bother. Or even better- remove the playoffs altogether and give the last place to the team who wins the second tier tournament.

Remember you can finish sixth in the Pro12 and not automatically qualify. To be forced to go away from home twice and win after finishing sixth would be pretty gutting.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:22 am

Oh yeah, and by the way

ERC is dead.

Not going to hold my breath waiting for TJ, sin e and others to come back on and admit they got it wrong.

Cheers Smile

by **Notch** Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:22 am

quinsforever wrote:I agree

Should have been 6/6/6 with 1 spot for previous winner and 1 for Amlin

Rabo teams shouldn't even be allowed into 20th spot playoffs - they already have 7 spots ffs

But unlike the other nations we know Top 6 might not be enough. As an Irish team, it has to be top 5 to be safe.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:24 am

quinsforever wrote:Oh yeah, and by the way

ERC is dead.

Not going to hold my breath waiting for TJ, sin e and others to come back on and admit they got it wrong.

Cheers

Sure we knew that months ago?

by Engine#4 Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:25 am

The 7th spot was needed to guarantee a place for each nation as you well know. To only have 6 would make it that much harder for those clubs looking to make the jump up to the next level to develop.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:28 am

Nope. People were denying it even a few weeks ago. Not to mention the pro-ERC rejoicing in Nov when the french excluded the rfu and prl from discussions.

Was pathetic, desperate, and premature. And quite often xenophobic and offensive. But hey ho.

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:29 am

Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:30 am

Engine#4 wrote:The 7th spot was needed to guarantee a place for each nation as you well know. To only have 6 would make it that much harder for those clubs looking to make the jump up to the next level to develop.

How is it needed? Top from each country plus the next best 2. It's not needed at all. It's better for them of course but not needed.

by Engine#4 Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:34 am

I thought the rabo originally wanted an 8/6/6 split?

It is needed because recently the rabo has had 6 clubs competing for playoff spots - 3 Irish, Ospreys, Glasgow and Scarlets. One spot goes to the Italians. If the rabo only had 6 then it becomes that much harder for teams like Embra, Blues etc. to step up to the top table. The divide between top and bottom 6 in the league would only grow year upon year.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:35 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

Well if that is they way the negotiations went down, I wouldn't want them anywhere near running this new tournament.

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:38 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:40 am

True, I mean can you I he the cheek of the pro 12 unions? "right so 6 from each leAgue with 2 remaining." "We want 7 teams" "Ok we'll split the last spot between us, fancy a playoff mr Frenchman?" "sure" "that sounds nice, can we get in on that" "but you've already got 7th in" "yeah but we want another" "fine, but you play off against us at home" "arrr"

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:42 am

Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Then write to your union a demand they don't let themselves or their league partners be pulled into this chance of qualifying for the 1st tier.

by kunu Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:44 am

Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Agreed. Qualification demands aside, that format will serve as a constant reminder of this whole debacle

by **Notch** Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:46 am

Hammer, if we had 6 places instead of 7 most years the team that finishes sixth in the Pro12 wouldn't qualify. How is that fair?

The fairest solution would have been for the Pro12 to get 8 places and the two other leagues to get 6 each. Does the Pro12 deserve more places? Of course it does- it's a multinational league, as opposed to the other leagues which are of one nation. In reality those places are split between multiple nations leaving England and France over-represented.

For 4 nions to get 8 places between them and the other 2 unions to get 6 places each would look unfair on paper it's true. Unfair to the Pro12 unions...

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:48 am

HammerofThunor wrote:True, I mean can you I he the cheek of the pro 12 unions? "right so 6 from each leAgue with 2 remaining." "We want 7 teams" "Ok we'll split the last spot between us, fancy a playoff mr Frenchman?" "sure" "that sounds nice, can we get in on that" "but you've already got 7th in" "yeah but we want another" "fine, but you play off against us at home" "arrr"

I can just imagine it went something like that. It just isn't the right solution, even if that meant the Rabo don't get to play off. It will just cause grief along the way.
These play offs will reflect very poorly on some.

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:52 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Then write to your union a demand they don't let themselves or their league partners be pulled into this chance of qualifying for the 1st tier.

Why should I? It was the unsporting idiots that demanded home play offs that caused this mess. Let them undo it.

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:54 am

To me it's fair than you just take the top 6 from each league. And whether you like or not, your terms of 'fairness' do not supersede anyone else's.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:55 am

The writing was on the wall all the way along. Crying about it now is a bit pointless when it's set in stone for the next 8 years.

If y don't like it, stop watching the tournament.

Fact is, the three fully funded Irish sides have no god-given right to automatically play in the HC. Get use to it. You're just goijg to have to support one of the other provinces in HC competition some years.

That's what English and french club rugby fans have to deal with

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:55 am

HammerofThunor wrote:To me it's fair than you just take the top 6 from each league. And whether you like or not, your terms of 'fairness' do not supersede anyone else's.

That works both ways.

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:56 am

Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Then write to your union a demand they don't let themselves or their league partners be pulled into this chance of qualifying for the 1st tier.

Why should I? It was the unsporting idiots that demanded home play offs that caused this mess. Let them undo it.

Except you have no idea who suggested that do you? You don't know if the English and French demanded it or the pro12 unions asked for it because they preferred to not having a chance in the playoff.

I suggest you find out which if it's winding you so much.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:58 am

quinsforever wrote:The writing was on the wall all the way along. Crying about it now is a bit pointless when it's set in stone for the next 8 years.

If y don't like it, stop watching the tournament.

Fact is, the three fully funded Irish sides have no god-given right to automatically play in the HC. Get use to it. You're just goijg to have to support one of the other provinces in HC competition some years.

That's what English and french club rugby fans have to deal with

The 3 Irish provinces are still going to qualify for the HC every year...

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:58 am

quinsforever wrote:The writing was on the wall all the way along. Crying about it now is a bit pointless when it's set in stone for the next 8 years.

If y don't like it, stop watching the tournament.

Fact is, the three fully funded Irish sides have no god-given right to automatically play in the HC. Get use to it. You're just goijg to have to support one of the other provinces in HC competition some years.

That's what English and french club rugby fans have to deal with

You're obviously on a wind up....

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:00 am

Good. So what r u complaining about? And don't give me the altruistic "looking after scots, welsh and Italian rugby" BS

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:02 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Then write to your union a demand they don't let themselves or their league partners be pulled into this chance of qualifying for the 1st tier.

Why should I? It was the unsporting idiots that demanded home play offs that caused this mess. Let them undo it.

Except you have no idea who suggested that do you? You don't know if the English and French demanded it or the pro12 unions asked for it because they preferred to not having a chance in the playoff.

I suggest you find out which if it's winding you so much.

It really isn't winding me up, hammer. I think the idea will eventually be scrapped. You're the one claiming it's warped to think that one side having a permanent home advantage is unfair....

Yes, I can just see the IRFU demanding that the English and French have home advantage.....

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:04 am

Not on a wind up. Telling it how I see it. And how I believe it.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:04 am

quinsforever wrote:Good. So what r u complaining about? And don't give me the altruistic "looking after scots, welsh and Italian rugby" BS

Connacht may be in that playoff next year.

by Guest Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:07 am

quinsforever wrote:Not on a wind up. Telling it how I see it. And how I believe it.

Good for you thumbsup

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:08 am

Irfu and wru obviously flubbed the negotiations by trying to stick with the ERC. So they probably took whatever they were given by those who decided to be pragmatic.

Maybe they should have taken the original June 2012 offer of 8/6/6 that was on the table rather than refusing to discuss anything and blindly following JP Lux and McGrath at ERC....

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:14 am

quinsforever wrote:Irfu and wru obviously flubbed the negotiations by trying to stick with the ERC. So they probably took whatever they were given by those who decided to be pragmatic.

Maybe they should have taken the original June 2012 offer of 8/6/6 that was on the table rather than refusing to discuss anything and blindly following JP Lux and McGrath at ERC....

How do you know that deal was on the table? The Rabo got quite a good deal out this imo and it seems like all the unions bar Italy are happy with it. Its just this playoff thing that is completely ridiculous. Id rather the spot go to the Amlin winner than this.

Hopefully it gives the Rabo teams an extra incentive to win those matches.

by Sin é Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:18 am

quinsforever wrote:Oh yeah, and by the way

ERC is dead.

Not going to hold my breath waiting for TJ, sin e and others to come back on and admit they got it wrong.

Cheers

What did we get wrong ... all that has been proved is that the prl are just bully boys and have no interest whatsoever in the sport, just their pockets and how they fill them. They have pretty much destroyed Welsh & Scottish rugby who haven't a hope of competing.

And you are typical of the way they view the world. No thought whatsoever for the 20 or so people who have lost their jobs in a fairly specialised area so that McCafferty & Co could make a land grab and safe face.

The only good thing I can see in it now is that the Unions can now screw the clubs and their owners.

by quinsforever Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:34 am

Where's the icon for bleeding heart violin music?

U r worried about 20 staff that run a calendar and a website? Not worried about improving European club rugby? Fair enough if that is your priority.

Not mine or anyone else's. Not even any of the Unions. Everyone was lookin after their own interests. And the 20 staff of the woeful ERC were not a factor on anyone's agenda and don't you dare to pretend it was.

by Sin é Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:47 am

quinsforever wrote:Where's the icon for bleeding heart violin music?

U r worried about 20 staff that run a calendar and a website? Not worried about improving European club rugby? Fair enough if that is your priority.

Not mine or anyone else's. Not even any of the Unions. Everyone was lookin after their own interests. And the 20 staff of the woeful ERC were not a factor on anyone's agenda and don't you dare to pretend it was.

I'm pointing out that it is distasteful that people's livelihoods are messed up for really stupid reasons like getting this organisation away from the IRB in Dublin (as if they have something to hide). Funny thing that the ERC was run by a Frenchman (Lux) and the ERC is being moved to Switzerland because they don't trust the British.

By the way, the company that run the ERC website are British (based in Sussex). The RFU & PRL are also clients of theirs!

by markb Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:32 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Maybe the original suggestion was 7 from Rabo and a playoff between the 7th spot for English and French teams? Then being involved in the playoff at all is better than not...isn't it? Some very warped ideas about 'fairness'.

No, it isn't. Better not to have a play off than have a mockery of qualification. It will simply leave a bitter taste for all involved, and always be a bone of contention.

It's certainly warped to think a permanent home advantage could be in any sense a fair solution in sport.

Then write to your union a demand they don't let themselves or their league partners be pulled into this chance of qualifying for the 1st tier.

Why should I? It was the unsporting idiots that demanded home play offs that caused this mess. Let them undo it.

Except you have no idea who suggested that do you? You don't know if the English and French demanded it or the pro12 unions asked for it because they preferred to not having a chance in the playoff.

I suggest you find out which if it's winding you so much.

The first time I remember the guaranteed home play-off coming up was in the statement after the mediator led meeting of the union representatives back in October, which would put it down to these guys:

Meeting attendees:

Graeme Mew (Mediator)
Stephen Drymer (Mediator)
Ian Ritchie (RFU)
Rob Andrew (RFU)
Bill Beaumont (RFU)
Pierre Camou (FFR)
Michel Palmié (FFR)
Olivier Keraudren (FFR)
Philip Browne (IRFU)
Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)
Andrea Rinaldo (FIR)
Nino Sacca (FIR)
Mark Dodson (SRU)
Ian McLauchlan (SRU)
Roger Lewis (WRU)
Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC)
Derek McGrath (ERC)

http://www.ercrugby.com/news/25300.php#.U0cpOaISWdZ

by HammerofThunor Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:35 am

Munchkin wrote:It really isn't winding me up, hammer. I think the idea will eventually be scrapped. You're the one claiming it's warped to think that one side having a permanent home advantage is unfair....

Yes, I can just see the IRFU demanding that the English and French have home advantage.....

Nice twist there, are you a politician? (Sorry, I take that back, too far). I said is it it fairer that the pro12 would not be involved at all in the playoffs as they already have the 7th spot automatically.

See markb's post above. Doesn't look like it had anything to do with the clubs.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:24 am

quinsforever wrote:Rugby is the winner here.

8 year deal is great news.

Franglos clearly the "winners" in terms of getting what they originally wanted. But the reality is i firmly believe this is good for rugby in general. Doomsday scaremongerers are just that. The qualification is almost fair (disappointed that rabo 8/9 place will get to participate in playoffs from 2015 thats a bit of a joke), money is fair, governance looks a lot more sensible.

ERC is dead....long live the EPCR! Sorry, couldnt resist...but i did predict it...about a hundred times

Anyway, great that we will have a competition next year, and i personally am very optimistic that it will prove much more commercially and competitively attractive over time than its predecessor.

The endgame was always inevitable in my opinion. All the heartache and bile could have been avoided though if they hadnt had that poison dwarf JP Lux promising all the celtic unions that the english and french would back down and that they didnt need to negotiate. Wonder where he will pop up next - can't see French clubs welcoming him having any involvement in the FFR...

Gibberish. The relative decline of Scottish club rugby will now accelerate over the next 5-10 years - the Scottish clubs have lost out significantly in relative terms, and there's no disguising that fact.

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