The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:59 am

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:58 pm

So the stupid playoff is true. Clearly don't expect a non 6 nation club winning the Challenge cup (unlikely). And PRL get pretty much everything they wanted.

And nothing about the Welsh getting two spots minimum. What a surprise.

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:03 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:So the stupid playoff is true. Clearly don't expect a non 6 nation club winning the Challenge cup (unlikely). And PRL get pretty much everything they wanted.

And nothing about the Welsh getting two spots minimum. What a surprise.

by Feckless Rogue Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:09 pm

As expected. Looks like the Franglo's really "won". But the Irish have gotten a pretty good deal to be honest, in spite of their naive negotiating skills. A little bit more of an improvement from Connacht and we could see four Irish teams qualifying, with one each from the other three PRO12 nations. Connacht currently 7th. 6th is their target. Which is more doable than finishing above the top 3 Irish sides.

The playoffs thing seems needlessly messy. But it will bring in decent pay days for middle ranking clubs and an exciting finish to the season (I presume the playoffs will be at the end of the season?). I, like Portnoy, hope there's a decent seeding system too.

The parties have also agreed to form a working party to discuss and propose the principles of an integration of European competitions within an all-encompassing European rugby framework.

Integration? Interesting.......

by broadlandboy Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:16 pm

Rumor was that only the 3 league winners would be seeded.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:21 pm

When, where and how will the full, detailed announcement be made?

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:32 pm

When broadcasting contracts are signed?

by wayne Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:34 pm

According to a meeting between the supporters of the Regions and members of RRW, the seedings are based on where each team finishes in the previous years League. Proper Meritocracy.

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:36 pm

So they got rid of the ERC, and now we have the ERC...C, with the 2nd tier competition being the... um ... ERC....C. Erm

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:40 pm

Rugby is the winner here.

8 year deal is great news.

Franglos clearly the "winners" in terms of getting what they originally wanted. But the reality is i firmly believe this is good for rugby in general. Doomsday scaremongerers are just that. The qualification is almost fair (disappointed that rabo 8/9 place will get to participate in playoffs from 2015 thats a bit of a joke), money is fair, governance looks a lot more sensible.

ERC is dead....long live the EPCR! Sorry, couldnt resist...but i did predict it...about a hundred times Yahoo

Anyway, great that we will have a competition next year, and i personally am very optimistic that it will prove much more commercially and competitively attractive over time than its predecessor.

The endgame was always inevitable in my opinion. All the heartache and bile could have been avoided though if they hadnt had that poison dwarf JP Lux promising all the celtic unions that the english and french would back down and that they didnt need to negotiate. Wonder where he will pop up next - can't see French clubs welcoming him having any involvement in the FFR...

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:43 pm

EPCR?

by **LondonTiger** Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:46 pm

European Professional Club Rugby

by Guest Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:50 pm

Thanks LT.

by Engine#4 Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:58 pm

quinsforever wrote:

The qualification is almost fair (disappointed that rabo 8/9 place will get to participate in playoffs from 2015 thats a bit of a joke)

Do you think it's a joke that they only enter in 2015 or that they enter at all? If find the fact that the AP/Top 14 teams automatically get home advantage in the qualification playoff to be a bit of a joke.

If it is true that seeding is done by league position then I think that is a good move. It would hopefully eliminate dead rubber matches towards the end season.

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:59 pm

regarding the "integration" and european big league discussion.

complete non-starter. the french would have absolutely zero interest. given their league has more revenues than everyone else combined its hard to see how they are likely to be more excited about some kind of bigger pan-european league which french fans dont care about most of the fixtures.

never going to happen. and i know that never is a long time.

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:06 pm

Engine#4 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:

The qualification is almost fair (disappointed that rabo 8/9 place will get to participate in playoffs from 2015 thats a bit of a joke)

Do you think it's a joke that they only enter in 2015 or that they enter at all? If find the fact that the AP/Top 14 teams automatically get home advantage in the qualification playoff to be a bit of a joke.

If it is true that seeding is done by league position then I think that is a good move. It would hopefully eliminate dead rubber matches towards the end season.

i think it's a joke that 8/9th place get to compete at all.

i suppose that is recognised by giving the AP and top14 sides the home advantage, but it's still a sop.

my strong opinion was that it should be 6/6/6 plus the previous winner of the competition, plus the winner of the second tier competition. given irish clubs recent successes that would have meant 7 entrants each year for rabo. and going forward its an important carrot for the Amlin replacement.

by Engine#4 Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:23 pm

Fair enough if you want to exclude 7th in the AP and Top 14 as well. Personally I don't think it is necessary to guarantee the winners of the Champions Cup entry.

I think home advantage is ridiculous though. With the state of the Italian teams currently it looks like it will actually be 7th/8th from the Pro12 that go into the playoffs. Apologies if this has been covered before but why are English/French mid-table teams more deserving of home advantage than Pro12?

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:24 pm

I really hate the name.

'Rugby Champions Cup'

It's aping the football, obviously. The main European Cup in football used to be called the 'Champions Clubs Cup' because to qualify you had to win your league. Hence it was a cup of champions from all around Europe. Thats where the 'Champions' part comes in to the Champions League. You can qualify for this tournament if you finish in the bottom half of your league, with a bit of luck in your playoff. You'll have somewhere between 3 and 5 teams who are actually reigning champions in it each year.

Rugby Champions Cup. What a load of guff. But the best name was already taken wasn't it? European Rugby Cup. Probably can't call it that anymore.

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:30 pm

The playoffs seem like a sideshow. Home advantage in perpetuity for the English and French teams?

Say next year the Top 6 in the Pro12 is Ulster, Leinster, Glasgow, Munster, Ospreys and Scarlets. So they all qualify. Then Treviso finish ahead of Zebre, but in the bottom three. They qualify as the seventh Pro12 team by dint of being the best of the Italian sides.

So in the playoff seventh and eighth in the Pro12 are away to seventh in England and seventh in France? Why should the team that finishes seventh in the Pro12 be away from home and the team that finishes seventh in the other leagues have home advantage? Why not just have a random draw- surely the fairest way to go about it?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:44 pm

Well this is a competition that only the French or Irish will win over the next few years and the Irish will really struggle as the might of the French spending power.The fact that the French have the advantage over the Irish of having no foreign player restrictions and the advantage over the English of having a massively larger salary cap means that all the noises made by the power brokers about making it a fair tournament were just wind.

by geoff998rugby Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:11 pm

My gut feeling as well.

For all the noise not a lot has fundamentally changed.
Probably Lost the third Welsh team, 2nd Scottish team and 2nd Italian team + 1 other
The English and French will get more money if it grows in the future but not now
The TV is split to the disadvantage of viewers
The clubs have a foot in the door of control but 6 of the 9 interested parties remain Unions
The AWL is the deadest of dead ducks

Bottom line being the French top sides will dominate, the Irish will give them a run for their money, the English will continue to struggle, the rest nowhere

The teutonic plates have shifted marginal but a long way from an earthquake

by GavinDragon Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:14 pm

can some one answer me a question (and forgive me if I am asking a very stupid question here)

Under this qualification rule what would happen if the top 7 of the rabbo was as follows

Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Ospreys
Scarlets
Connaught
Blues
Dragons

Who would be the representatives in the following year?

by geoff998rugby Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:18 pm

Gavin:

Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Ospreys
Scarlets
+ the top Italian and top Scottish team

After next year Connaught and Blues would go into the play offs

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:19 pm

Ulster qualify as Irish. Ospreys qualify as Welsh. A Scottish and Italian teams qualify. Then Leinster, Munster and Scarlets as the next 3 best placed. Connacht and Blues would enter the playoffs.

Edit: ninja'd by Geoff

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:22 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:My gut feeling as well.

For all the noise not a lot has fundamentally changed.
Probably Lost the third Welsh team, 2nd Scottish team and 2nd Italian team + 1 other
The English and French will get more money if it grows in the future but not now
The TV is split to the disadvantage of viewers
The clubs have a foot in the door of control but 6 of the 9 interested parties remain Unions
The AWL is the deadest of dead ducks

Bottom line being the French top sides will dominate, the Irish will give them a run for their money, the English will continue to struggle, the rest nowhere

The teutonic plates have shifted marginal but a long way from an earthquake

You mean the whole rugby world isn't going to come crashing down? Leaving only the French standing? What a shocker.

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:28 pm

GavinDragon wrote:can some one answer me a question (and forgive me if I am asking a very stupid question here)

Under this qualification rule what would happen if the top 7 of the rabbo was as follows

Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Ospreys
Scarlets
Connaught
Blues
Dragons

Who would be the representatives in the following year?

You need to show the full table, add the Scottish and Italian sides.

If it finishes like that the Top 5 all qualify automatically. 6th and 7th will go into the playoff.

The remaining two automatic qualifying places would go to the best Scottish side and the best Italian. Only the Top 5 would qualify automatically. 6th and 7th would go into the playoffs.

I'll give an example table with the teams who qualify automatically having 'AQ' for automatic qualifier next to their names and the teams who go into the playoff having 'PL' for playoff besides their name.

Leinster AQ- top Irish side
Munster AQ- 1st highest placed non-qualified team
Ospreys AQ- top Welsh side
Ulster AQ- 2nd highest placed non-qualified team
Scarlets AQ- 3rd highest place non-qualified team
Cardiff PL- 4th highest Placed non-qualified team
Connacht PL- 5th highest Placed non-qualified team
Dragons
Glasgow AQ- top Scottish side
Edinburgh
Treviso AQ- top Italian side
Zebre

If the Pro12 table finishes with all the teams in the same positions they occupy now next years qualifiers will be as follows. Remember we only take part in the playoffs from next season.

Leinster AQ- top Irish side
Munster AQ- 1st highest placed non-qualified team
Ulster AQ- 2nd highest placed non-qualified team
Glasgow AQ- top Scottish side
Ospreys AQ- top Welsh side
Scarlets AQ- 3rd highest place non-qualified team
Edinburgh
Connacht
Dragons
Cardiff Blues
Treviso AQ- top Italian side
Zebre

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:29 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well this is a competition that only the French or Irish will win over the next few years and the Irish will really struggle as the might of the French spending power.The fact that the French have the advantage over the Irish of having no foreign player restrictions and the advantage over the English of having a massively larger salary cap means that all the noises made by the power brokers about making it a fair tournament were just wind.

rubbish.

massive changes to the seeding (nothing to do with HC performance which favoured those teams guaranteed HCV entry). massive changes to qualification. Rabo teams will be relatively disadvantaged compared to this year - less money relatively, less qualification spots relatively, more relevance of domestic league competition relatively (unfort no relegation yet).

Your saying only the french or irish will win over the next few years is ridiculous. Typical one-eyed, retrograde rubbish. The only thing you can say is that the new competition's arrangements are more favourable to the French and English clubs compared to the Rabo clubs than the previous arrangement. Anything else is utter speculation and fan bias.

by stub Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:29 pm

Well thank goodness that is over! Fingers Crossed

Great news I think with apparent stability for 8 years which I hope means that rugby can take centre stage for years to come. Not sure I agree that we'll continue to see the French and Irish dominate but part of the fun is that we'll find out for sure in due course. I have a feeling we'll see the Welsh get stronger again and I'm not overly worried about the state of English rugby. Anyway, plenty to look forward to now however it turns out. Very Happy

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:31 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:My gut feeling as well.

For all the noise not a lot has fundamentally changed.
Probably Lost the third Welsh team, 2nd Scottish team and 2nd Italian team + 1 other
The English and French will get more money if it grows in the future but not now
The TV is split to the disadvantage of viewers
The clubs have a foot in the door of control but 6 of the 9 interested parties remain Unions
The AWL is the deadest of dead ducks

Bottom line being the French top sides will dominate, the Irish will give them a run for their money, the English will continue to struggle, the rest nowhere

The teutonic plates have shifted marginal but a long way from an earthquake

You mean the whole rugby world isn't going to come crashing down? Leaving only the French standing? What a shocker.

there was a lot of Doomsday scenario stuff being touted its true. Reality is, AP clubs are finally going to be on average profitable, and Rabo clubs are going to have to compete to qualify. Is that earth shattering stuff? hardly.

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:32 pm

There has been no formal announcement of seeding. The rumour I heard was that only the champions of each league would be seeded and it would be an open draw otherwise, so that who that would disadvantage would be purely a matter of chance.

by GavinDragon Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:34 pm

cheers all thumbsup

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:36 pm

Notch wrote:There has been no formal announcement of seeding. The rumour I heard was that only the champions of each league would be seeded and it would be an open draw otherwise, so that who that would disadvantage would be purely a matter of chance.

Agree.

but the previous arrangement massively favoured the Rabo teams which got guaranteed HC entry and guaranteed HC points compared to up and coming teams in the AP and top14. how else do you get Zebre and Connacht in the same group?

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Notch wrote:There has been no formal announcement of seeding. The rumour I heard was that only the champions of each league would be seeded and it would be an open draw otherwise, so that who that would disadvantage would be purely a matter of chance.
Agree.

but the previous arrangement massively favoured the Rabo teams which got guaranteed HC entry and guaranteed HC points compared to up and coming teams in the AP and top14. how else do you get Zebre and Connacht in the same group?

It would be simpler to just change the seeding system so you didn't get points for finishing bottom of your group or for turning up instead of an open draw. Of course an open draw is always rather exciting. But it could lead to an even more unequal distribution of quality across the groups than the current format.

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:42 pm

i think they need 5 seeds. they need 1 seed for each group. So, 2 from AP, 2 from top14, and 1 from Rabo, representing the relative strengths of the leagues, no? Wink

wonder if they will do anything to prevent (albeit statistically unlikely) 3 irish provinces in the same group? would irish fans want that or not want that? group stages would certainly be very compelling if there were lots of national rivalries, but on the other hand i would like to see every irish side have a chance to qualify.

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:43 pm

The worst news is that now you have to have BT Sport and Sky Sports to guarantee seeing all the games your side is involved in. I assume that BT will soon stop giving BT Sport away free to existing customers.

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:45 pm

quinsforever wrote:i think they need 5 seeds. they need 1 seed for each group. So, 2 from AP, 2 from top14, and 1 from Rabo, representing the relative strengths of the leagues, no?

wonder if they will do anything to prevent (albeit statistically unlikely) 3 irish provinces in the same group? would irish fans want that or not want that? group stages would certainly be very compelling if there were lots of national rivalries, but on the other hand i would like to see every irish side have a chance to qualify.

God, you are a card!

I think they should seed it to keep all the Irish sides apart to be honest. We already play each other in the league. You don't want to be just playing the same sides you play in your domestic competition. I want to see us playing English and French teams, not other Irish teams. Thats whats special about the current format, playing teams you don't usually come across. Say 4 English sides are drawn together- you're then asking fans to pay to see teams they're playing already and making sure the English will be less represented in the knockout phase.

Of course we should try and keep teams from the same nations separate. No more than 2 English or French teams to a group, Irish and Welsh teams kept apart, Scots and Italians too if both their sides make it.

by nathan Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:53 pm

Notch wrote:The worst news is that now you have to have BT Sport and Sky Sports to guarantee seeing all the games your side is involved in. I assume that BT will soon stop giving BT Sport away free to existing customers.

At least we have a competition and one that is there for 8 years.

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 pm

I agree it would be a shame to have a completely random draw Notch. That's why the seeding and draw is so important.

by Engine#4 Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:59 pm

Having just the league champions seeded makes no sense. A team scraping into their league playoffs in 4th and putting together two wins could be seeded and then still draw a team that ran away with their league but had 6 players injured and another sent off in a playoff game. The top 3 or 4 in each league are generally so close in ability that it is of little or no benefit to seed just the champions.

quinsforever wrote:i think they need 5 seeds. they need 1 seed for each group. So, 2 from AP, 2 from top14, and 1 from Rabo, representing the relative strengths of the leagues, no?

Is this why the Franglos get home playoffs? Imagined league strength Very Happy

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:02 pm

Nah, they get home advantage cause the rabble get 7 spots and they only get 6

by **Notch** Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:09 pm

If its five groups of four.

1) Draw the three champions of each league to separate groups.
2) Draw the next four best English sides to the four groups without an English side in already
3) Draw the next four best French sides to the four groups without a French side already
4) Place any other qualifying sides from the country of the Pro12 champions into groups other than the one they are in
5) Place the three best teams from the other three Pro12 nations into random groups
6) Draw any other Pro12 teams remaining into groups individually, keeping them apart from teams from the same nation
7) Draw the remaining French and English side into random groups
8) The playoff winner takes the last remaining place

Er... I think that would work. Obviously if a group is full you just remove it from the next stage of the draw.

by wayne Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:I agree it would be a shame to have a completely random draw Notch. That's why the seeding and draw is so important.

Mark Davies CEO of the Scarlets, said in the meeting I mentioned earlier with the supporters groups of the Regions, that seeding positions in the new competition would be set where each team finished in their respective Leagues, so even if Treviso automatically qualified if they finished where they are now in the League they would be seeded in the last group, and would be in a group with one of the 1st seeds.

by quinsforever Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:16 pm

Notch, that looks perfect if they only seed 3.

Send it to your irfu bids and tell them that the mighty 606v2 approves LOL

by Feckless Rogue Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:21 pm

A sensible seeding system could easily be put in place. I've never heard a single person on 606v2 or old 606 disagree with the fact that the old seedings were ridiculous. But 3 seeds in a 5 group competition? Doesn't make sense to me. Seeding by league performance was one of my original suggestions when changes were first talked about.

I wouldn't be surprised if there'll be three teams, one team from each league, in a group. Then the fourth team in each group will have to be from the same league as one of the other teams in the group. In that case it'd very unlikely there'd be more than one Irish team in a group, but not impossible. Notch I don't think they'll be separated by nations, but by leagues. I didn't hear that anywhere it just fits with the whole "three leagues" setup we'll have now.

I wonder will details like seedings and stuff be refined as time goes on or set in stone for 8 years?

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:25 pm

I imagine they can change stuff like seeding if everyone agrees but might need 100% vote? I'd certainly hope they can change something if it doesn't 'work'. Like having the Challenge Cup winning auto qualifying FFS.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:29 pm

Why is the playoff this year only between the AP and TOP14 sides? Why can't the Rabo sides compete this season?

by broadlandboy Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Thought the rumor was top of leagues seeded but draw done so that you can't get to many FRE/ENG/Pro12 in one pool
Good work Notch

by The Saint Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:32 pm

The structure sounds good, all apart from that home play-off malarkey for the Franglo's. It should always go to those with the higher points difference IMO. How are the profits being divided?

by HammerofThunor Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Not sure if already mentioned but...

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/31497.php#.U0cNdie9KK2

So minimum of 11 games televised a week. 10 Tier one and at least 1 2nd tier. I'd hope there were more.

LeinsterFan4Life, as already said probably because 7 Pro12 teams qualify already and two are in the playoffs. At a guess.

Edit: Saint, three way between the leagues. Nothing official on how the Pro12 are splitting it I think

by neilthom7 Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:39 pm

I am just happy we have a competition, I love watching European rugby the mix of styles is great. My only concern now is how much it is going to cost to view but this is not really so much to do with the clubs etc. I am quite lucky because I work for Sky so I get that for free and have a family member who has BT Broadband so again can watch for free but if you do not have this. You would have to pay
21.50 for the basic sky pack plus then another 22 pounds for the sports pack and then 15 pounds for BT Sport on your sky box as well a total outlay of 58.50 per month in tv alone to watch the games, that's pretty steep, I'd prefer if it was only on 1 broadcaster but what can you do at least there is a comp

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:40 pm

Notch wrote:The playoffs seem like a sideshow. Home advantage in perpetuity for the English and French teams?

Say next year the Top 6 in the Pro12 is Ulster, Leinster, Glasgow, Munster, Ospreys and Scarlets. So they all qualify. Then Treviso finish ahead of Zebre, but in the bottom three. They qualify as the seventh Pro12 team by dint of being the best of the Italian sides.

So in the playoff seventh and eighth in the Pro12 are away to seventh in England and seventh in France? Why should the team that finishes seventh in the Pro12 be away from home and the team that finishes seventh in the other leagues have home advantage? Why not just have a random draw- surely the fairest way to go about it?

WAIT WHAT? the pro 12 teams never get a chance to play a game at home in these playoff games? So that means the 7th place teams in the AP and Top14 get to have a sell out game every year and the 7th Rabo team never does? That is huge money lost to the mid table Rabo teams...who agreed to that?

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