The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[geoff998rugby]

My gut feeling as well.

For all the noise not a lot has fundamentally changed.
Probably Lost the third Welsh team, 2nd Scottish team and 2nd Italian team + 1 other
The English and French will get more money if it grows in the future but not now
The TV is split to the disadvantage of viewers
The clubs have a foot in the door of control but 6 of the 9 interested parties remain Unions
The AWL is the deadest of dead ducks

Bottom line being the French top sides will dominate, the Irish will give them a run for their money, the English will continue to struggle, the rest nowhere

The teutonic plates have shifted marginal but a long way from an earthquake

You mean the whole rugby world isn't going to come crashing down? Leaving only the French standing? What a shocker.

there was a lot of Doomsday scenario stuff being touted its true. Reality is, AP clubs are finally going to be on average profitable, and Rabo clubs are going to have to compete to qualify. Is that earth shattering stuff? hardly.

There is a doomsday scenario but it is not from the make up of the European competititons.
The doomsday scenario is the money going into the French game from TV.

The English will try and keep up but will fail and the problems the teams have now competing will remain.
The Irish will continue to dominate the Pro12 and qualify comfortably and also be able to compete whilst they continue to retain nearly all top players.

8 year tournament -let me make a prediction

5 French wins
2 Irish wins
1 English win

[HammerofThunor]

Actually it was stated that if the teams were given control over the commercial aspects it would mean the downfall of rugby. Something about them controlling the purse strings. It didn't understand it then.

[geoff998rugby]

Not by me - Governance was the key in my book

[geoff998rugby]

With thanks to a Munster forum guy for the inspiration I thought I would sum the whole situation up in racing terms

Basically:
An ocean going sailing boat is about to leave harbour (France)
A well crewed weekend pleasure sailing boat is about to leave harbour (England)

What does this mean for the Pro12 nations??

We could be discussing how the race started without us - albeit the Welsh hanging on to English anchor pleading to be allowed aboard like an unwanted asylum seeker

Instead we are in the race however at very different levels of preparedness:

The Irish have an Olympic crew who need to row like Smeg to keep up
The Welsh are in a coracle and everyone is rowing in different directions
The Scots have a big hole in the boat, and are sinking, and the captain is running up and down shouting 'don't panic, don't panic'
The Italian are trying to find a crew to man the boat they are building
Currently stuck at the jetty but if they get their act together !

I think that is far clearer than the reams of posts we are all likely to read and post over the coming weeks  

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Rabo teams should consider themselves lucky to be in playoffs from 2015. When was the last time any welsh, or scots teams filled their stadia for an HC match anyway?

Ignorance is bliss, eh quins? Glasgow regularly fill their stadium for Heino games - it's a small stadium, but its full

[geoff998rugby]

Rabo teams should consider themselves lucky to be in playoffs from 2015. When was the last time any welsh, or scots teams filled their stadia for an HC match anyway?

Ignorance is bliss, eh quins?  Glasgow regularly fill their stadium for Heino games - it's a small stadium, but its full

A quick look at he 1st Round this years shows that Ospreys have a bigger crowd than any of the English teams playing at home that weekend - Quins, Exeter, Gloucester
As you say ignorance is bliss

[No 7&1/2]

Rabo teams should consider themselves lucky to be in playoffs from 2015. When was the last time any welsh, or scots teams filled their stadia for an HC match anyway?

Ignorance is bliss, eh quins?  Glasgow regularly fill their stadium for Heino games - it's a small stadium, but its full

A quick look at he 1st Round this years shows that Ospreys have a bigger crowd than any of the English teams playing at home that weekend - Quins, Exeter, Gloucester
As you say ignorance is bliss

True. Where did they all go against Castre?

[Ozzy3213]

I think certainly the Challenge Cup will be stronger next year, and no drop ins from the top competition is a good thing.

[HammerofThunor]

I think certainly the Challenge Cup will be stronger next year, and no drop ins from the top competition is a good thing.

Absolutely a good thing. That was a clear example of why the structure was no good for the English clubs. All it did was make the pool games even less important.

Geoff, no maybe not by you but by a lot (it is important to split out what specific people are saying as when you lump them all in together they can come across as a fickle beast). Then we had guys like TJ who claimed that the [PRL] would demand complete control and nothing else. I suggested that they would actually want a similar control as they do their league. So control over the commercial rights and then a reasonable say on the governance, along with the RFU and Players Association. That's pretty much what this is.

Where is TJ? Didn't he say he was 100% certain that next year we would have a 5 union competition with no English involvement? Run by the ERC and then all the other discusions would be around the competition in following years. I seem to remember him calling a lot of people out for suggesting on waiting until contracts are signed before accepting anything.

I also wonder if LordDowlais is having stern words with his 'source' for leading him a garden path.

[HammerofThunor]

A quick look at the 1st Round this years shows that Ospreys have a bigger crowd than any of the English teams playing at home that weekend - Quins, Exeter, Gloucester
As you say ignorance is bliss

The joys of quick looks.  The averages this year for the HEC.

Exeter - 8824
Ospreys - 9037
Quins - 11928
Saints - 12986
Gloucester - 13011
Leicester - 21747
Saracens - 26086

And even the Saracens got more to each game than the Ospreys got. And Exeter probably would have had more if they hadn't sold out for their 'big game' (they actually got more for the other equivalent seeds.)  Although the original point was about selling out games.

Saints only sold out the game to Leinster, Leicester only sold out the game to Ulster, Exeter only sold out to Toulon.  Quins, Gloucester, Saracens and Ospreys didn't sell out any of the HEC games.

[geoff998rugby]

Well the Saracens are inflated by 1 game of course.
Also things go downhill when teams lose matches - which is why the 1st Round is the cleanest picture.

Basically the interest is there - the poor showing of the Welsh teams is the problem
Leicester are in a different league but the Osprey, Scarlets and Blues have a potential level of support the equal of the other English teams mentioned.
The reason they don't get it is because of the quality of the sides themselves.

[No 7&1/2]

How many fans just turned up to watch leinster though? As a Middlesbrough fan even we sell out for Man U. Looking in isolation always offers a skewed picture.

[Notch]

I think certainly the Challenge Cup will be stronger next year, and no drop ins from the top competition is a good thing.

It should be stronger in the pool stages but I'm concerned there is no incentive for French teams to bother taking it seriously. As long as we see teams like the one Stade Francais put out against Harlequins the competition will be seen as a sideshow.

When we had backdoor qualification to the main tournament for the winners of the Amlin that at least was some incentive. Now there is none.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Do we have any precise details on the financials beyond 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 with some unspecified guarantees around not being worse off in years 1-5? Cheers

[beshocked]

Geoff remember Saracens had two of the least eye catching sides in their pool - Zebre and Connacht. The scoreline at Allianz Park showed how one sided the matches were. If you're a neutral it's hardly a gripping contest. This and the low profile of those two sides hurts attendances.

The viewing figures on tv showed Saracens-Toulouse to be commendably high. Separate to the people who went to Wembley.

[Guest]

It really isn't winding me up, hammer. I think the idea will eventually be scrapped. You're the one claiming it's warped to think that one side having a permanent home advantage is unfair....

Yes, I can just see the IRFU demanding that the English and French have home advantage.....

Nice twist there, are you a politician? (Sorry, I take that back, too far). I said is it it fairer that the pro12 would not be involved at all in the playoffs as they already have the 7th spot automatically.

See markb's post above. Doesn't look like it had anything to do with the clubs.

Hammer I have already answered your question. Permanent home advantage to one side can never be fair. I would rather see the Rabo teams not involved in the play offs if that's what it's coming too. The reason being it's only going to cause friction in the future. It will be a thorn in the flesh of this new super streamlined competition.

I know when the proposal came out, and I said then that it was a concession, and a sop to the PRL. They had their demands. Richie mediated on their behalf.

Now if you go back, and read my comments at the start of this discussion last night, you will find that I blame both sides in this. To be more exact, I called them all numpties.

[quinsforever]

Asbo, finding it hard to square your position in favour of HC subsidy for scots teams and against the Westminster subsidy for your country.

Dependence or independence for both surely?

[Notch]

quins, asbo- i'd remind you both that we frown on discussion of politics. Keep it on topic.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Asbo, finding it hard to square your position in favour of HC subsidy for scots teams and against the Westminster subsidy for your country.

Dependence or independence for both surely?

Just so that you can have the facts at your disposal rather than make sh1t up: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0044/00446179.pdf

[whocares]

I think certainly the Challenge Cup will be stronger next year, and no drop ins from the top competition is a good thing.

It should be stronger in the pool stages but I'm concerned there is no incentive for French teams to bother taking it seriously. As long as we see teams like the one Stade Francais put out against Harlequins the competition will be seen as a sideshow.

When we had backdoor qualification to the main tournament for the winners of the Amlin that at least was some incentive. Now there is none.

I thought the future winner of the new challenge cup would get access to the champions cup from 2015 onwards?

In a way I agree with you Notch, only mid table french clubs could risk to field a 1st team. the problem lies as usual with the T14 relegation and playoff system where the difference between 7/8 and 12/13 is usually quite small in terms of points and those teams do not have depth to compete properly on both fronts . that said it is a good way to see some of our U21 playing decent games and get experience.

[Notch]

I think certainly the Challenge Cup will be stronger next year, and no drop ins from the top competition is a good thing.

It should be stronger in the pool stages but I'm concerned there is no incentive for French teams to bother taking it seriously. As long as we see teams like the one Stade Francais put out against Harlequins the competition will be seen as a sideshow.

When we had backdoor qualification to the main tournament for the winners of the Amlin that at least was some incentive. Now there is none.

I thought the future winner of the new challenge cup would get access to the champions cup from 2015 onwards?

In a way I agree with you Notch, only mid table french clubs could risk to field a 1st team. the problem lies as usual with the T14 relegation and playoff system where the difference between 7/8 and 12/13 is usually quite small in terms of points and those teams do not have depth to compete properly on both fronts . that said it is a good way to see some of our U21 playing decent games and get experience.

I don't think so. Every year 7 places go to the Pro12, 6 to the Top14 and the English Premiership. Thats 19 places and then there is a playoff structure being put in place to determine the 20th place.

[Scrumpy]

From 2015 season, if the previous season's European Rugby Challenge Cup winner has not already qualified through its finishing position in its league, it will participate in the play-off by taking a place given to its league.
 
 
All you need to know is right here.   
 
https://www.606v2.com/t53158-the-european-rugby-champions-cup-european-rugby-challenge-cup-format

[Guest]

On page 16 of this thread:   

"For subsequent seasons this will be between the seventh-highest finishing club from Top 14, the seventh-highest finishing club from Premiership Rugby and the eighth- and ninth-highest finishing clubs from Pro 12 (or the two highest-finishing which have not already qualified automatically).

From the 2015 season, if the previous season’s European Rugby Challenge Cup winner has not already qualified through its finishing position in its league, it will participate in the play off by taking a place given to its league."

[neilthom7]

Probably the best way to have done it and retain that chance would have been to have the team from england and france in the play off and instead of 2 pro 12 teams have 1 and the winners of the challenge cup then rank them in order of points in their league tables that season or something and draw them that way

[Notch]

So if you win the Challenge Cup and your from the Pro12 are you still away? Against an English or French team that has won presumably nothing?

[rodders]

I think its time for the fans to vote with their feet and boycott this sham of a competition.

[brennomac]

OK, we (sort of know) the qualification system 6-6-7 plus the play-off between 7th in the Prem and T14, but is anybody the wiser as to how the 20 teams are going to be divided up.

Is it going to be 5 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 5. 5 groups of 4 looks very clumsy and 4 groups of 5 makes QF qualification simple - top 2 in each group with no best runner-up situation like in HC, but groups of 5 would require 2 additional weekends (8 games instead of 6 in what is already crowded timetable. Mind you Sky and BT would no doubt be happy to have the extra games.

Is there going to any seeding system other than what has been mentioned - winners of Rabo, Prem and T14 - kept apart in the draw. If so and there are 4 or 5 groups is it just going to be an open draw. Say Leinster win the Rabo, then conceivably an open draw could see them have Munster or Ulster in the group - or will there seem some system to keep teams from the same country apart as far as possible. Obviously for France or England with 6 or 7 teams each, then some groups are going to have 2 English and 2 French teams.

Since ERC 4-year record in HC is out the window, would imake sense for the 8 QF qualifiers in this year's HC to get seedings - Saracens, Clermont, Munster and Toulon as semi-finalists to get top seeds, Leinster, Leicester, Ulster and Toulouse to get second seeds as beaten QF's, - assuming they qualify through their domestic leagues (by no means certain in the case of Toulouse.

Hope all this is clarified soon - I'm tired by now of all the arguments we've had to endure for the past year or two. Still have reservations about the new structure, but at this stage let's get on with it - last weekend we probably had the best weekend of European club rugby there's been for years - let's all hope for repeat weekends next year.

[Scrumpy]

OK, we (sort of know) the qualification system 6-6-7 plus the play-off between 7th in the Prem and T14, but is anybody the wiser as to how the 20 teams are going to be divided up.

Is it going to be 5 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 5.   5 groups of 4 looks very clumsy and 4 groups of 5 makes QF qualification simple - top 2 in each group with no best runner-up situation like in HC, but groups of 5 would require 2 additional weekends (8 games instead of 6 in what is already crowded timetable.  Mind you Sky and BT would no doubt be happy to have the extra games.

 
The competitions will take place over nine weekends. The Pool phase will be through five Pools of four teams which will play each other home and away. The five Pool winners and the 3 best runners-up will qualify for the quarter-finals. The last eight will be played at the home venues of the four best Pool winners.
 
Its all here on the new nice informative thread. (saves people having to repeat themselves and look it up like on page 16 for example)   
 
https://www.606v2.com/t53158-the-european-rugby-champions-cup-european-rugby-challenge-cup-format

[Guest]

OK, we (sort of know) the qualification system 6-6-7 plus the play-off between 7th in the Prem and T14, but is anybody the wiser as to how the 20 teams are going to be divided up.

Is it going to be 5 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 5.   5 groups of 4 looks very clumsy and 4 groups of 5 makes QF qualification simple - top 2 in each group with no best runner-up situation like in HC, but groups of 5 would require 2 additional weekends (8 games instead of 6 in what is already crowded timetable.  Mind you Sky and BT would no doubt be happy to have the extra games.

 
The competitions will take place over nine weekends. The Pool phase will be through five Pools of four teams which will play each other home and away. The five Pool winners and the 3 best runners-up will qualify for the quarter-finals. The last eight will be played at the home venues of the four best Pool winners.
 
Its all here on the new nice informative thread. (saves people having to repeat themselves and look it up like on page 16 for example)   
 
https://www.606v2.com/t53158-the-european-rugby-champions-cup-european-rugby-challenge-cup-format

  

[whocares]

So if you win the Challenge Cup and your from the Pro12 are you still away? Against an English or French team that has won presumably nothing?

more games for nothing as well - should just give the 20th spot to the challenge cup winner directly (or someone from the same league) like we do now.

am disapointed as I was hoping for less games not more!

[HammerofThunor]

It'll be more games for those not involved with the league play offs and not involved with HEC. I presume the Challenge Cup will be completed early enough for them to play during the league playoffs.

[Notch]

There's nothing to say that a team who makes the Final of the Challenge Cup won't also make the playoffs of their league though Hammer. What then?

The more and more I think about these playoffs the more it just seems like a way to shove more home games for English and French clubs into an already over-crowded calendar. I just think it's a really bad idea, especially when you could just give the extra place to the Challenge Cup winner or next best non-qualified side from the winners league if they have already qualified.

Fairer, simpler, results in less fixture congestion.

[LeinsterFan4life]

The reason why the AP and Top14 teams always get the home game in these playoff games, is so they get more money from having a big crowd. How the Pro 12 agreed to this is beyond me.

[Scrumpy]

But the pro12 does get an extra place!   

[Exiledinborders]

The reason why the AP and Top14 teams always get the home game in these playoff games, is so they get more money from having a big crowd. How the Pro 12 agreed to this is beyond me.

No the reason they get the home place is because it is their seventh teams against the eighth and ninth from Pro12. You could make an argument for a simple play off between the seventh placed teams in the AP and Top14. Personally I am happy with the compromise.

[LeinsterFan4life]

No, this whole competition is setup to maximise how much money the clubs can get and this is another way of getting more money.

[HammerofThunor]

There's nothing to say that a team who makes the Final of the Challenge Cup won't also make the playoffs of their league though Hammer. What then?

The more and more I think about these playoffs the more it just seems like a way to shove more home games for English and French clubs into an already over-crowded calendar. I just think it's a really bad idea, especially when you could just give the extra place to the Challenge Cup winner or next best non-qualified side from the winners league if they have already qualified.

Fairer, simpler, results in less fixture congestion.

And if one of the two teams from outside the 3 league wins the competition what happens?

Regarding the playoffs, any team in the league playoffs are already in the Champions Cup so wouldn't need to playoff if they won the Challenge Cup.

Please remember that these playoffs were first heard about from the 6 union meeting with the mediator. And yes they are pointless and stupid.

[Scrumpy]

No, this whole competition is setup to maximise how much money the clubs can get and this is another way of getting more money.

What's wrong with that!

Are the Irish teams not motivated by money too?

[Notch]

But the pro12 does get an extra place!   

I know you're just doing some light wumming, but going on about the 'extra place' makes it sound like its an advantage for us. It's an advantage for any nation that doesn't have any teams in the top half of the table which has never been the case for the Irish. This year it seems that the Top 6 of the Pro12 will qualify, then Treviso will finish 10th or 11th in the table and qualify. If the Scottish sides go backwards and both fall into the bottom half it actually make the process of qualifying harder for the Irish and Welsh than the English/French because we need to finish in the Top 5 not the Top 6 to be guaranteed a spot. If you finish 6th in England you're in. If you finish 6th in the Pro12 and both Scottish sides and both Italian sides are below you, you only get a playoff. In which you will not have home advantage.

Hammer, I would say if a Romanian team or whoever wins the Challenge Cup they deserve their spot at the top table. Seems unlikely, but if it happens then they should be in.

[quinsforever]

Notch, it will certainly make the Rabo more competitive for HC places. Which i think is one of the stated goals of AP and top14. To make all leagues have to compete fiercely for places.

[Exiledinborders]

But the pro12 does get an extra place!   

I know you're just doing some light wumming, but going on about the 'extra place' makes it sound like its an advantage for us. It's an advantage for any nation that doesn't have any teams in the top half of the table which has never been the case for the Irish. This year it seems that the Top 6 of the Pro12 will qualify, then Treviso will finish 10th or 11th in the table and qualify. If the Scottish sides go backwards and both fall into the bottom half it actually make the process of qualifying harder for the Irish and Welsh than the English/French because we need to finish in the Top 5 not the Top 6 to be guaranteed a spot. If you finish 6th in England you're in. If you finish 6th in the Pro12 and both Scottish sides and both Italian sides are below you, you only get a playoff. In which you will not have home advantage.

Hammer, I would say if a Romanian team or whoever wins the Challenge Cup they deserve their spot at the top table. Seems unlikely, but if it happens then they should be in.

That is all true but it was not the English or French who wanted that complicated qualification from the Rabo. The PRL/LNR proposal was for a complete meritocracy with qualification for the top teams. The Rabo unions decided they wanted guaranteed spots. Having done so they have to accept the consequences. The fact is seven teams qualify automatically. The English and French did not ask the Rabo to use one of these places for the 10th best team.

[Engine#4]

The reason why the AP and Top14 teams always get the home game in these playoff games, is so they get more money from having a big crowd. How the Pro 12 agreed to this is beyond me.

No the reason they get the home place is because it is their seventh teams against the eighth and ninth from Pro12. You could make an argument for a simple play off between the seventh placed teams in the AP and Top14. Personally I am happy with the compromise.

Not necessarily. If Treviso, for example, finish outside the top 7 next year then they still get an automatic place. So it would be the top 6 + Treviso qualifying. Therefore it would be 7th and 8th in the Rabo playing away to 7th in the other two. I can only hope that if it is Connacht vs somebody like Wasps that the Irish in London come out of the woodwork and turn it into a home game.

[Exiledinborders]

The reason why the AP and Top14 teams always get the home game in these playoff games, is so they get more money from having a big crowd. How the Pro 12 agreed to this is beyond me.

No the reason they get the home place is because it is their seventh teams against the eighth and ninth from Pro12. You could make an argument for a simple play off between the seventh placed teams in the AP and Top14. Personally I am happy with the compromise.

Not necessarily.  If Treviso, for example, finish outside the top 7 next year then they still get an automatic place.  So it would be the top 6 + Treviso qualifying. Therefore it would be 7th and 8th in the Rabo playing away to 7th in the other two.  I can only hope that if it is Connacht vs somebody like Wasps that the Irish in London come out of the woodwork and turn it into a home game.

It is the eighth and ninth qualifiers. The Rabo unions have decided to adopt a complicated system in which the seventh qualifier might be the a team who finish eleventh in the league. A bizarre decision but not one for which the English and French have any responsibility. They proposed a straight meritocracy. Having decided to use their seven places in that way the Rabo teams cannot use that as an argument against home qualifiers for the seventh English and French qualifiers.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Complicated? Its actually quite simple if you could bother to read it properly.

So your saying that the English and French teams deserve to have home qualifiers because of our seemingly "complicated" qualifying system...Wow.

[quinsforever]

its not about "deserve". it's about what was required in order to get a deal through.

rabo have 7 spots. they can allocate them however they wish. in order to get that seventh spot though, they clearly had to concede the home advantage for the english and french teams for the 20th spot, in exchange for which they get 2 teams into the playoffs.

it is what it is.

if you want fairness, top 6 from each league would be nearer the mark.

[Exiledinborders]

Complicated? Its actually quite simple if you could bother to read it properly.

So your saying that the English and French teams deserve to have home qualifiers because of our seemingly "complicated" qualifying system...Wow.

No they deserve home qualifiers because they are the seventh teams qualifying from their league rather than the eighth and ninth. Simple really.

Clearly the qualifying from the Rabo is more complicated than that from the other two leagues. Personally I think it would be better for Treviso to play in a competition in which they would be competitive rather than one in which they are likely to be outclassed but that is a matter for the Rabo.

[Exiledinborders]

if you want fairness, top 6 from each league would be nearer the mark.

Which is what the English and French proposed in the first place. Having demanded an extra place there had to be a quid pro quo.

[Guest]

its not about "deserve". it's about what was required in order to get a deal through.

rabo have 7 spots. they can allocate them however they wish. in order to get that seventh spot though, they clearly had to concede the home advantage for the english and french teams for the 20th spot, in exchange for which they get 2 teams into the playoffs.

it is what it is.

if you want fairness, top 6 from each league would be nearer the mark.

So forget about meritocracy for the sake of pushing a deal through? Whatever happened to the stance on meritocracy?

Top 6 from each league wouldn't be fair, but there's no point arguing it. You already know the arguments against, and you simply want to use the excuse for the sake of argument.

[Engine#4]

Personally, I don't think Treviso will develop unless exposed to top level competition. Their results have improved over the years and most teams have been 'outclassed' at one point or another in the Heineken Cup.  We're not going to agree clearly.

[Engine#4]

Meritocracy is, and always has been a red herring. It is by definition about rewarding ability. Nobody can say that the Top X in each league is equal, they are not comparable without playing one another directly and fairly.

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