Ulster vs Saracens - HC quarter final - Saturday, 5th April 6:30pm

by beshocked Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:59 am

First topic message reminder :

Ulster vs Saracens.

Saturday 5th April at 6:30pm

First game at a newly renovated Ravenhill I believe with a new capacity of 18,000.

Ulster are currently 3rd in the Pro12 and won all their pool stages in the HC, including impressive away wins vs Leicester and Montpellier.

They have a few Irish players who were involved in the title winning 6 nations like Best and Trimble. Trimble in particular had a very good tournament.

Close to full strength in terms of their squad.

According to Ulster fans their current form hasn't been great but I take that firmly with a pinch of salt. Their latest result - a loss to Cardiff could shake any sense of complacency.

Saracens are currently the league leaders in the AP with a healthy 7 point gap off 2nd placed Saints. Just 2 losses in the AP in 18 matches which contrasts with their two losses in the pool stages of the HC. Saracens are currently the top try scorers in the AP and were top try scorers in the HC pool stages. Form wise Saracens have been comfortable without really putting in a notable performance.

Notable clashes

Best vs Brits - the Irish hooker vs the flamboyant South African who plays more like a centre - will be key in getting their teams into good positions.

Muller vs Borthwick - skipper vs skipper - both will be key in inspiring their sides.

Jackson vs Farrell - the 2nd choice Irish 10 vs the current England 10 - both will be expected to boss the game and take any opportunities and points on offer

Ulster team

15. J Payne
14. A Trimble
13. D Cave
12. L Marshall
11.T Bowe
10. P Jackson
9. R Pienaar

1. T Court
2.R Best
3. J Afoa
4.J Muller (C)
5.D Tuohy
6.R Wilson
7.N Williams
8.C Henry

16. R Herring
17.A Warwick
18.R Lutton
19.I Henderson
20.S Ferris
21.R Diack
22.P Marshall
23.C Gilroy

Saracens team

15. Alex Goode
14. Chris Ashton
13. Duncan Taylor
12. Brad Barritt
11. David Strettle
10. Owen Farrell
9. Richard Wigglesworth

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Schalk Brits
3. James Johnston
4. Steve Borthwick ©
5. Mouritz Botha
6. Billy Vunipola
7. Jacques Burger
8. Ernst Joubert

16. Jamie George
17. Richard Barrington
18. Matt Stevens
19. Eoin Sheriff
20. Kelly Brown
21. Neil de Kock
22. Charlie Hodgson
23. Chris Wyles

Thoughts?

by mystiroakey Sun 06 Apr 2014, 11:28 am

clivemcl wrote:
kunu wrote:Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

Spot on again

problem is he didnt jump for the ball- the last second he looked at the player and didnt pull out. if you are going to mid air tackle at least try and bring the player down yourself.

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 12:45 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
kunu wrote:Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

Spot on again

problem is he didnt jump for the ball- the last second he looked at the player and didnt pull out. if you are going to mid air tackle at least try and bring the player down yourself.

Payne didn't jump because Payne thought that he had no need to jump. He was simply running a straight line, looking straight ahead, arms out ready for a catch. Expecting a player to pull out at the last second is expecting a bit much. You can see by the way Payne collides face first that there just wasn't the time, nor the time to try and grab a hold of the player. Goode came in from an angle, unsighted by Payne, and if Payne had have jumped the card could have gone either way. In fact I would say more likey against Goode if there was to be a card given at all. Neither player would have been given a red.

by beshocked Sun 06 Apr 2014, 12:49 pm

Listened to post match interview -McCall talks a lot of sense.

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 12:57 pm

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
kunu wrote:Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

Spot on again

problem is he didnt jump for the ball- the last second he looked at the player and didnt pull out. if you are going to mid air tackle at least try and bring the player down yourself.

Payne didn't jump because Payne thought that he had no need to jump. He was simply running a straight line, looking straight ahead, arms out ready for a catch. Expecting a player to pull out at the last second is expecting a bit much. You can see by the way Payne collides face first that there just wasn't the time, nor the time to try and grab a hold of the player. Goode came in from an angle, unsighted by Payne, and if Payne had have jumped the card could have gone either way. In fact I would say more likey against Goode if there was to be a card given at all. Neither player would have been given a red.

I love this "Payne had no time so see Goode was coming" stuff. He runs from his own 22 to the oppo 10 metre line with a clear unobstructed view of what's ahead of him. You also see on the footage that on his own 10 metre line he glances forwards to check what's in front. He knows Goode is coming and makes a poor decision. It's reckless and a clear penalty, and for me a yellow card. I have no problem with those questioning whether it was a red card or not, because the sanction to be applied is subjective due to how the law is written, but those suggesting that it either wasn't an offence or Goode was somehow to blame are deluded.

by Golden Sun 06 Apr 2014, 12:59 pm

What did Anscombe say in his post match interview?

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 1:43 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
kunu wrote:Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

Spot on again

problem is he didnt jump for the ball- the last second he looked at the player and didnt pull out. if you are going to mid air tackle at least try and bring the player down yourself.

Payne didn't jump because Payne thought that he had no need to jump. He was simply running a straight line, looking straight ahead, arms out ready for a catch. Expecting a player to pull out at the last second is expecting a bit much. You can see by the way Payne collides face first that there just wasn't the time, nor the time to try and grab a hold of the player. Goode came in from an angle, unsighted by Payne, and if Payne had have jumped the card could have gone either way. In fact I would say more likey against Goode if there was to be a card given at all. Neither player would have been given a red.

I love this "Payne had no time so see Goode was coming" stuff. He runs from his own 22 to the oppo 10 metre line with a clear unobstructed view of what's ahead of him. You also see on the footage that on his own 10 metre line he glances forwards to check what's in front. He knows Goode is coming and makes a poor decision. It's reckless and a clear penalty, and for me a yellow card. I have no problem with those questioning whether it was a red card or not, because the sanction to be applied is subjective due to how the law is written, but those suggesting that it either wasn't an offence or Goode was somehow to blame are deluded.

Glad you love it, Ozzy. Hope it has made your day.

by Pete330v2 Sun 06 Apr 2014, 1:50 pm

"if you are going to mid air tackle at least try and bring the player down yourself."

HE WASN'T GOING FOR THE TACKLE. HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO CATCH THE BALL.

Jees!!!!!

The TMO said it was a yellow and as far as careless play goes I agree, it was. The fact that a red card was given by an idiotic referee who claimed Payne intended to take Goode out is mind boggling.

I despise the way certain refs can decide the outcome of matches instead of allowing the players to.

by MrsP Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:15 pm

Ozzy,

Did you see the clip I posted?

2 players running pretty much straight at each other and yet it looks very much like neither saw the other. Result, penalty.

Goode was coming at an angle and jumped into the same spot as Payne was running into. Result, RC?

I also think we need to start to think about changing the idea that, once you are in the air you are absolved of any responsibility.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:18 pm

I always considered Ulster fans amongst the most fair minded. Staring to look like I was wrong.

by quinsforever Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:22 pm

MrsP wrote:Ozzy,

Did you see the clip I posted?

2 players running pretty much straight at each other and yet it looks very much like neither saw the other. Result, penalty.

Goode was coming at an angle and jumped into the same spot as Payne was running into. Result, RC?

I also think we need to start to think about changing the idea that, once you are in the air you are absolved of any responsibility.

the laws are the way the are. and currently the player in the air gets 100% of the protection. that's why everyone jumps and raises their knees with impunity.

it would be a good discussion as to whether this is a good law or not. but it currently IS the law, and therefore Payne, when taking out a player in the air (whether deliberately or not is actually irrelevant), can lead to a red card if the ref thinks it merits it.

and the ref, touch judge and tmo had 5 minutes while goode was being treated to review the replays so it wasnt a snap decision. red or yellow would have been defensible applications of the law. penalty only would not.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:26 pm

I knew Ulster was a proud club but I'd like to say on this match thread the team's performance yesterday was one that the whole rugby world should admire. It was quite something to see Trimble wreaking havoc in what seemed like it must be a lost cause, and a one-armed Pienaar determined to stay on the pitch to help his side.

The post match arguments are inevitably raging about other matters but I came away with a tremendous amount of respect for Ulster, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

by VinceWLB Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I always considered Ulster fans amongst the most fair minded. Staring to look like I was wrong.

Ulster were reffed out of the competition and im not an Ulster fan though for this one i was an Ulster supporter.

by **Notch** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 2:30 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I always considered Ulster fans amongst the most fair minded. Staring to look like I was wrong.

Come on. It was a red card in the fourth minute of the biggest sporting event in our country for 15 years. It's always going to generate discussion. You don't get this, you don't understand the importance of the game. You've had the Olympics in London. You have your World Cups or whatever else. This was our Olympics, this was our World Cup. This is the match we've been waiting for every day for 15 years. And it was taken away for us- thats sport, and in a fair call you can take it. Thats what happens in sport and in life. I have seen this same situation play out so many times without sanction or cards in countless rugby games and so my disappointment.

I wouldn't blame the referee for his decision, but neither will I say I agreed with it or that it didn't have a very major effect on the outcome of the game. Possibly even a decisive effect. And people are entitled to express their opinions. As you say, its fairly rare that Ulster folk do blame the referee. Will you let a reaction to one incident in one game decide your opinion of thousands of fans from diverse backgrounds?

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 06 Apr 2014, 3:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I always considered Ulster fans amongst the most fair minded. Staring to look like I was wrong.

Harsh, but I could say the same thing about many of the Sarries/English fans on here to be quite honest.

by quinsforever Sun 06 Apr 2014, 5:31 pm

I think actually most of the Ulster fans here appear to be a really solid non-whingeing group. (1 or 2 obvious exceptions).

totally understandable that they feel robbed.

refs decision was IMO justified but yellow was probably more justified. Problem is, when you get into the clear area of unclear interpretation (yellow vs red for dangerous play) you can't control the outcome.

i feel gutted for Ulster fans and totally understand how they feel.

by Scrumpy Sun 06 Apr 2014, 6:43 pm

Just got round to watching the game and thought it was a bit unsporting to boo the splashdown and jeer the goal kicker.

As for the sending off, we all know the rules you simply can't do that!

by **Notch** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 6:57 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Just got round to watching the game and thought it was a bit unsporting to boo the splashdown

This is what I don't understand. How can you condemn the reaction and not the provocation? It's equally unsportsmanlike to get on like Ashton does when he scores. With a cool head I don't object to it. If he was less concerned with a photogenic swan dive, he might have got it closer to the posts...

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:05 pm

Maybe that game, after the sending off, wasn't the best time for one of Ashton's silly dives. He just increased the pressure on his own team. Farrell in particular.

Having the fans as the 16th man is a bit different to having the fans as the 15th man, I think.

by mystiroakey Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:07 pm

Ashton equal top try scorer in the HC ever. I think he deserves applause tbh. Not Lame jeers

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:08 pm

I don't like the Ash Splash and don't have problem with the fans booing it to be honest. I will laugh my face off when the same thing happens to him as happened to the Japanese fella at the Hong Kong 7's.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:11 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ashton equal top try scorer in the HC ever. I think he deserves applause tbh. Not Lame jeers

He will quite possibly get HC player of the season. however the splash is annoying and the finger wagging childish. For that I have no problem people booing him.

What grates a little is that there are some who admonish Ashton for his antics, but applaud the "celebrations" of their own players.

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:17 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ashton equal top try scorer in the HC ever. I think he deserves applause tbh. Not Lame jeers

I wouldn't describe the booing as lame, and I doubt Farrell, or Ashton would either. The booing had a purpose, right or wrong, and it worked. It got to Farrell. Farrell is the typical pantomime villain, but, some of his antics apart, I actually have a lot of respect for the guy.

by Scrumpy Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:20 pm

I thought Irish fans took pride in staying silent during kicks?

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:26 pm

Scrumpy wrote:I thought Irish fans took pride in staying silent during kicks?

Oh we do all right. Last night can be considered the exception to the rule. Sometimes drastic actions call for drastic measures.

by Scrumpy Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:31 pm

Not in the spirit of the game to act like that though.

by Gibson Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:34 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Not in the spirit of the game to act like that though.

The French do it for fun Scrump. Their kickers love the noise. Just different cultures really.

by Gibson Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:35 pm

Mon Wasps!

by Cyril Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:36 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ashton equal top try scorer in the HC ever.

I thought he was too (level with Matthew Robinson for a tournament total of 9). However, Wiki tells me that Sébastien Carrat (Brive) got 10 in 96/97. One more Splash in the semi and another in the final?

by Guest Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:37 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Not in the spirit of the game to act like that though.

Generally speaking I agree. I don't like booing from any fans, but like I said; there are exceptions.

by **Notch** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:40 pm

The referee was wrongly booed on the prom for a correct call when Farrell was lining up a kick in the second half. There was a breakaway and Luke Marshall was in but was tackled without the ball- it would have been a penalty try, except unbeknownst to us play had already been called back for an earlier offence which was on the far side of the field where nobody on the prom could have a view of it. I think it was a deliberate knock on.

Is that what you mean?

by **Notch** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:43 pm

I don't like booing either. I'm always disappointed to hear it at Ravenhill. For a game like this, it's inevitable though I think. When you get a dubious red card in the first four minutes that tends to, um, excite the passions.

The exception would be booing for Ashton, thats fair enough.

Myself, I was saying boo-urns Wink

by geoff998rugby Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:47 pm

Only the last 2 of Farrells kicks were booed - the crowd were silent before that.

The first booing was because, rightly, or wrongly, the crowd felt the ref got it wrong

by Cyril Sun 06 Apr 2014, 7:48 pm

Notch wrote:Myself, I was saying boo-urns

by quinsforever Sun 06 Apr 2014, 8:21 pm

have no problem with people booing ashton. am sure he loves it. he doesnt reserve the swan dive only for ravenhil - thats the first time he's played there!

but i really dont like kickers being booed.

but, i understand the crowd were probably a bit upset after payne going off. so all in all, no complaints. Ulster needed the crowd to become their 15th man, and they almost did it.

by Scrumpy Sun 06 Apr 2014, 8:30 pm

Why do you feel it was it a dubious red card notch?

by **Notch** Sun 06 Apr 2014, 8:31 pm

It's covered in the other thread Scrumpy- we're trying to keep the red card chat and the game chat separate. The card thing is so big it merits its own thread

https://www.606v2.com/t53063p200-the-payne-goode-incident

by Cyril Sun 06 Apr 2014, 8:33 pm

Notch wrote:It's covered in the other thread Scrumpy- we're trying to keep the red card chat and the game chat separate. The card thing is so big it merits its own thread

https://www.606v2.com/t53063p200-the-payne-goode-incident

It'll settle down in a while, like the Warburton one did.

by Scrumpy Sun 06 Apr 2014, 8:33 pm

Just found it.

Red for me I'm afraid!

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 06 Apr 2014, 9:55 pm

That game was another argument for having home and away qtrs and semis in the HC and its replacement. At least we could have seen what Ulster could have done in London to redress any perceived wrongness.

The pools with only 20 clubs are always going to produce imbalanced qualifiers and questionable home sides.

We need eight pools of three.

by Pete330v2 Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:01 am

I hated to hear the Ulster fans booing too but perhaps we can forgive the Ravers faithful as one French fool had conspired to ruin the game and another English idiot thought it's the right thing to do to do the childish 'ash splash'. I long for the day when he drops it in a crucial game.

Apart from that the rest of that Saracens team are seriously physical guys, a bit like our own and some of the impacts on saturday were brutal. It was a fantastic contest that went down to the wire and was a credit to both teams (bar ashton Smile

)

Good luck to Sarries in the remaing fixtures.

Ulster we are all so proud of that monumental effort that was put in by 14 men. Absolutely gutted for all the squad but immensely proud. Most teams would have wilted after losing a player of Payne's calibre and then losing Best and Pienaar but what our lads did was superhuman. Brilliant. Next year lads, next year.

by beshocked Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:07 am

I don't blame the crowd for booing. They were annoyed and voiced their anger.

Disappointed with Farrell's composure on the day. Must do much better than that!

You might not like Ashton but yet again he finds his way to the try line. 3 tries vs Ulster in 2 games. You would be well within your rights to say Ashton was disrespectful.

Personally I am pleased when he does the Ash splash because it means he has scored a try! It gives him confidence, it's hugely important for a player to be confident. I genuinely don't think Ashton does it to be disrespectful - I think he does it as a celebration of his joy at scoring a try. That's my opinion anyway.

When it's your own player doing the celebration it's different to opposition doing a celebration vs you.

Deliberate knock down is normally a YC but I don't think the ref was going to do that with the crowd already on his back!

If it weren't for Brits,Billy and Ashton, Sarries would have lost. We were lucky - it's important we make the most of it.

by clivemcl Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:34 am

beshocked wrote:I don't blame the crowd for booing. They were annoyed and voiced their anger.

Disappointed with Farrell's composure on the day. Must do much better than that!

You might not like Ashton but yet again he finds his way to the try line. 3 tries vs Ulster in 2 games. You would be well within your rights to say Ashton was disrespectful.

Personally I am pleased when he does the Ash splash because it means he has scored a try! It gives him confidence, it's hugely important for a player to be confident. I genuinely don't think Ashton does it to be disrespectful - I think he does it as a celebration of his joy at scoring a try. That's my opinion anyway.

When it's your own player doing the celebration it's different to opposition doing a celebration vs you.

Deliberate knock down is normally a YC but I don't think the ref was going to do that with the crowd already on his back!

If it weren't for Brits,Billy and Ashton, Sarries would have lost. We were lucky - it's important we make the most of it.

Yea, you have to admire the man - scoring against 14 man team , celebration before he crosses the line, and the swan dive. Yea - so likeable. Whistle

by beshocked Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:38 am

clivemcl hardly the first time Ashton has done it this season. 9 tries in 7 HC games is good.

Didn't say it was likeable. Just saying at least he scores tries.

The way to prevent Ashton from doing the swallow dive is to stop him scoring.

by clivemcl Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:42 am

Don't take away a man from our team for an accidental collision next time and we will see what we can do Wink

by beshocked Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:49 am

clivemcl it wasn't an accidental collision - it was reckless and dangerous play by Payne. If you would like to continue to discuss it do it on the other thread which is dedicated to that very subject. Plus it wasn't Saracens taking a man away it was Garces who was following the rules of the game. He's the one who made the call.

It's not Ashton's fault that he was playing vs 14 men, it was Payne's.

by Jimpy Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:54 am

clivemcl wrote:Don't take away a man from our team for an accidental, dangerous, reckless, stupid collision next time and we will see what we can do

there, fixed that for you.

by beshocked Mon 07 Apr 2014, 10:55 am

Jimpy well said thumbsup

by mystiroakey Mon 07 Apr 2014, 11:01 am

Trimble continuing that form he showed us in the 6n's

what a player.

He was almost like two.

As soon as he went off I knew Sarries had it in the bag. Farrels kicking was bad, not sure what happened- fingers crossed it was only a one off- rest of his game was fine.

Ulster is clearly a knarly place to go. Good efforts from both teams- but way to many mistakes for my liking

by munkian Mon 07 Apr 2014, 11:10 am

I liked the bit where they kept referring to him as 'the iceman' and then he absolutely fluffed sitter after sitter of a kick.

Same with Ford for Bath, should have given the ball to Henson

by MrsP Mon 07 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

It was only a matter of time till we had that sort of comment from those quarters.

Rolling Eyes

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