Ulster vs Saracens - HC quarter final - Saturday, 5th April 6:30pm

First topic message reminder :

Ulster vs Saracens.

Saturday 5th April at 6:30pm

First game at a newly renovated Ravenhill I believe with a new capacity of 18,000.

Ulster are currently 3rd in the Pro12 and won all their pool stages in the HC, including impressive away wins vs Leicester and Montpellier.

They have a few Irish players who were involved in the title winning 6 nations like Best and Trimble. Trimble in particular had a very good tournament.

Close to full strength in terms of their squad.

According to Ulster fans their current form hasn't been great but I take that firmly with a pinch of salt. Their latest result - a loss to Cardiff could shake any sense of complacency.


Saracens are currently the league leaders in the AP with a healthy 7 point gap off 2nd placed Saints. Just 2 losses in the AP in 18 matches which contrasts with their two losses in the pool stages of the HC. Saracens are currently the top try scorers in the AP and were top try scorers in the HC pool stages. Form wise Saracens have been comfortable without really putting in a notable performance.

Notable clashes

Best vs Brits - the Irish hooker vs the flamboyant South African who plays more like a centre - will be key in getting their teams into good positions.

Muller vs Borthwick - skipper vs skipper - both will be key in inspiring their sides.

Jackson vs Farrell - the 2nd choice Irish 10 vs the current England 10 - both will be expected to boss the game and take any opportunities and points on offer



Ulster team

15. J Payne
14. A Trimble
13. D Cave
12. L Marshall
11.T Bowe
10. P Jackson
9. R Pienaar

1. T Court
2.R Best
3. J Afoa
4.J Muller (C)
5.D Tuohy
6.R Wilson
7.N Williams
8.C Henry

16. R Herring
17.A Warwick
18.R Lutton
19.I Henderson
20.S Ferris
21.R Diack
22.P Marshall
23.C Gilroy






Saracens team



15. Alex Goode
14. Chris Ashton
13. Duncan Taylor
12. Brad Barritt
11. David Strettle
10. Owen Farrell
9. Richard Wigglesworth

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Schalk Brits
3. James Johnston
4. Steve Borthwick ©
5. Mouritz Botha
6. Billy Vunipola
7. Jacques Burger
8. Ernst Joubert

16. Jamie George
17. Richard Barrington
18. Matt Stevens
19. Eoin Sheriff
20. Kelly Brown
21. Neil de Kock
22. Charlie Hodgson
23. Chris Wyles


Thoughts?

LondonTiger wrote:I do not believe that Payne was deliberately trying to hurt Goode, but his actions were reckless and did endanger the player. It was a clear cut penalty with any further sanction being down to personal perspective. Like most (I think) I felt a Yellow was the right call, though it sounded as if the commentators (Mark Robson and Ieuan Evans?) thought Red was likely. It was unfortunate and it was the key factor in the match - but it was not an obvious error.



Oh and if Ashton had challenged Trimble say in the same way, these boards would have exploded.


Ulster fans you should be proud of your team and go sleep off the pending hangover.

Sarries fan go to bed also and take a massive chill pill.

Is a red card the best way to discipline what was essentially a dangerous accident. Surely a yellow followed by post match sanctions (if required) would have been more appropriate.

Also a red card is a red card... But one in the 4th minute and one in the 76th minute is not the same punishment.

Great stuff from Ulster, to play 75 minutes in an Heineken Cup quarter final with only 10 men and to only come up 2 points short shows unbelievable spirit, commitment, skill and determination. The red card did seem harsh to me, eyes on the ball but Goode was taken out dangerously, I would have thought yellow. Nobody knows who would have won game without the red, so to say Sarries wouldn’t have is silly, goes without saying completely different game. Also its worth noting in the light of people mentioning the injuries to Best and Pienaar, Sarries had two early injuries, one being Goode but also Duncan Taylor which meant we had to rearrange our back line. It wasn’t great from Saracens but it’s the second year we’ve made the semi’s in a row, that’s knockout rugby, winning is all. Clermont looks like a big ask in the semi, but we’re there so who knows….

beshocked wrote:The great aukster what do you mean by he has empathy for the game? Oh and garces and his tmo had ample of time to make a decision.

Secret fly it's Saracens-Clermont next.

And is Rolland keyed in for that? Besides, Saracens-Clermont isn't the topic of this thread either.

Oh talk about whoever you all like but it's only a distraction from the game of tonight. Ulster will feel cheated out of a HEC semi (either by a trigger happy ref or by a player that gave the ref too much to work with) and Saracens will feel they very much had a 'get out of jail free card' night. They'll have to get much better than tonight to sting what's coming down the line at them.

beshocked wrote:The great aukster what do you mean by he has empathy for the game? Oh and garces and his tmo had ample of time to make a decision.

Secret fly it's Saracens-Clermont next.

Empathy is putting yourself in the position of the player and so a referee with it understands that when a player is competing for the ball accidents happen. An accident is not foul play because it is not deliberate but ... er... an accident.

Toml well that's open to debate. Surely it's irrelevant whether an offense deemed as a red card one is in the 76th or the 4th. They should be treated the same.

Refs have a really tough call. Garces was put in an unenviable position. Who really wants to have to make such a call that early on?

Is red vs yellow really that clear cut?

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:The great aukster what do you mean by he has empathy for the game? Oh and garces and his tmo had ample of time to make a decision.

Secret fly it's Saracens-Clermont next.

Empathy is putting yourself in the position of the player and so a referee with it understands that when a player is competing for the ball accidents happen. An accident is not foul play because it is not deliberate but ... er... an accident.

That muppet Garces said it was intentionnal, says it all...

Also worth mentioning Goode was joking with the Saracens's bench 20min after the incident...

From a neutral(ish) POV I'd love to see Ulster draw Saracens in whatever competition we have next year.

The great aukster you say it was an accident. What in your opinion was Payne doing? He did not compete for the ball.

Secretfly just a prediction.

To be honest I am a bit disappointed how the game turned out. I didn't want to beat Ulster like that.

Vincewlb so you think Goode was play acting? Foul play is violation of the rules. I don't think you can call Payne taking out Goode, not foul play. He did not compete for the ball.

I don't think Ulster should feel cheated, disappointed with the red card but no cheating involved by the ref and definitely not by the player..... not sure if it was a get out of jail card but very relived, you gotta have some calls go you're way if to progress at this stage.

beshocked wrote:The great aukster you say it was an accident. What in your opinion was Payne doing? He did not compete for the ball.  

Secretfly just a prediction.

To be honest I am a bit disappointed how the game turned out. I didn't want to beat Ulster like that.

Are you a sane person?

beshocked wrote:Vincewlb so you think Goode was play acting?  Foul play is violation of the rules. I don't think you can call Payne taking out Goode, not foul play. He did not compete for the ball.

It was accidental, he looked at the ball all the way to the collision, it just happen that he badly timed it.

toml wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Wrote stuff

Is a red card the best way to discipline what was essentially a dangerous accident. Surely a yellow followed by post match sanctions (if required) would have been more appropriate.

Also a red card is a red card... But one in the 4th minute and one in the 76th minute is not the same punishment.

To your first point - I disagree 100% - if the ref deems it was dangerous enough to warrant a red then he should give one, not hide behind a possible future citing and ban.

To your second point - so what. Are we saying only give a red card at the end of the game?


As I said, I felt it was a yelllow, but I can see exactly why a red was given. I have seen red cards given for less dangerous things.

JMD is that comment really called for? What do you disagree about?

Oh right so looking at a ball is the same as competing? He does not jump. He takes out the man. Goode had the ball.

toml wrote:Also a red card is a red card... But one in the 4th minute and one in the 76th minute is not the same punishment.

I'd have been happy to see Schalk Burger draw a red for his gouging of Luke Fitzgerald early in the 2009 2nd Lions Test. If you are advocating a no red card policy in the early stages of a game then games could get very ugly.

Rugby fan I suppose there is the issue - what is a red card offence? Surely two refs could have different interpretations?

Watched the incident a couple more times. It's a penalty I reckon- that's it.

Payne is tracking the ball from 20+ metres out, and Goode came from deep to catch. Payne looks down for the first time when he's about half a foot from Goode, and subsequently fires chin-first into him. If there was any intent, there's no way he'd run at him that way. Could have done his own neck some serious damage.

It's clear enough that If Payne had jumped, there would have been no sanction. Rugby is a dangerous game, stuff like that can happen.

joe.reeves.33 wrote:I don't think Ulster should feel cheated, disappointed with the red card but no cheating involved by the ref and definitely not by the player..... not sure if it was a get out of jail card but very relived, you gotta have some calls go you're way if to progress at this stage.

"Cheated" as in figuratively so...not saying nobody willfully cheated nobody  But Ulster will feel 'cheated' by fate itself.

Rugby Fan wrote:

toml wrote:Also a red card is a red card... But one in the 4th minute and one in the 76th minute is not the same punishment.

I'd have been happy to see Schalk Burger draw a red for his gouging of Luke Fitzgerald early in the 2009 2nd Lions Test. If you are advocating a no red card policy in the early stages of a game then games could get very ugly.

Certainly not - thats a bit of a leap, i'm advocating the punishment fitting the crime. The offence was unintentional (i think everyone can admit that) and the punishment was 77 mins with 14 men - which in a rugby match (teams of similar standard) is essentially a defeat.

But you could even have a case - when the offence is accidental then you could have a sin bin situation where the team is down to 14 for 10 mins but the offending player cannot return - substituted

beshocked wrote:JMD is that comment really called for? What do you disagree about?

Oh right so looking at a ball is the same as competing? He does not jump. He takes out the man. Goode had the ball.

Does a player accept no risk when thy jump in the air? Should we start playing on a giant bouncy castle pitch next?

The term 'dangerous tackle' implies you acted dangerously ie. intent.

Payne's eyes were on the ball, he was not looking at the player? So where's the intent?

If there was intent, do you really think their is much likliehood that a player would go as far as smashing into somebody with his face in order to make a dangerous tackle?

A player has to be allowed to run to the point where a ball is going to drop without facing penalisation otherwise we may as well all stop playing the game.

Theres no such rule 'I'm jumping, so you have to also!'

At the speed Payne was running (in order to get underneath the ball), how could he have done ANYTHING ELSE?

Its a joke, and you would agree if you weren't so desparate to justify a difficult win over a 14 man opposition.

Kunu wow. I could imagine if you were a ref you would let players get away with practically anything! It was reckless and dangerous.

clivemcl wrote:

beshocked wrote:JMD is that comment really called for? What do you disagree about?

Oh right so looking at a ball is the same as competing? He does not jump. He takes out the man. Goode had the ball.

Does a player accept no risk when thy jump in the air? Should we start playing on a giant bouncy castle pitch next?

The term 'dangerous tackle' implies you acted dangerously ie. intent.

Payne's eyes were on the ball, he was not looking at the player? So where's the intent?

If there was intent, do you really think their is much likliehood that a player would go as far as smashing into somebody with his face in order to make a dangerous tackle?

A player has to be allowed to run to the point where a ball is going to drop without facing penalisation otherwise we may as well all stop playing the game.

Theres no such rule 'I'm jumping, so you have to also!'

At the speed Payne was running (in order to get underneath the ball), how could he have done ANYTHING ELSE?

Its a joke, and you would agree if you weren't so desparate to justify a difficult win over a 14 man opposition.

agreed, you can't call running fast in a straight line a reckless offence.

toml wrote:
But you could even have a case - when the offence is accidental then you could have a sin bin situation where the team is down to 14 for 10 mins but the offending player cannot return - substituted

Great shoot and i'm pretty sure this happens in other sport such as ice hockey.

beshocked wrote:Kunu wow. I could imagine if you were a ref you would let players get away with practically anything! It was reckless and dangerous.

it wasn't reckless, thats the point. We can't get to the stage in rugby where we start calling out players for merely running fast. He just ran in a straight line. Goode ran from deep to get there. Neither player was paying any attention to where the other was. Goode jumped into it as much as Payne ran into him. It was an unfortunate collision.

clivemcl wrote:
The term 'dangerous tackle' implies you acted dangerously ie. intent.

Wrong. Acting in a dangerous manner and intent are not synonymous. Through reckless behaviour you can perpetrate a dangerous act.

similar offence - common sense

Clivemcl no but you don't take a man out in the air. It's dangerous. Are you advocating that sort of behaviour? It was dangerous because Goode was in the air. It's not difficult - either make an effort to compete for the ball or tackle the man when he lands. Payne didn't make a concerted effort to compete for the ball. It was in Goode's hands when Payne took him out.

No it's not a joke. I don't see how you think what Payne did was acceptable.

If Payne was competing for the ball he would have had to jump to beat Goode to the ball.

toml wrote:similar offence - common sense

Thats actually a worse offence i think. The player has a lot longer to react, and knows that he is going to be challenged for the ball. Payne clearly has no idea he's about to run into somebody, and thinks the ball is his.

kunu wrote:it wasn't reckless, thats the point.

In your opinion. And you are entitled to your opinion. Just as the ref is entitled to his. He is an impartial witness to the events, unlike most of us posting about things.


If you can honestly state that you would defend Chris Ashton if he had made that challenge on an Ulster player - then I will accept you are arguing in good faith.

SecretFly wrote:

joe.reeves.33 wrote:I don't think Ulster should feel cheated, disappointed with the red card but no cheating involved by the ref and definitely not by the player..... not sure if it was a get out of jail card but very relived, you gotta have some calls go you're way if to progress at this stage.

"Cheated" as in figuratively so...not saying nobody willfully cheated nobody  But Ulster will feel 'cheated' by fate itself.

That's fair enough... just got the impression since you mentioned the trigger happy ref or by a player that gave the ref too much to work with that you thought someone cheated, but yes I can see who they would feel cheated figuratively.

Not sure if the ref would do that well in a shoot out if that was him trigger happy, took an age to decide.. after one look I thought yellow..

Kunu he's just not just running in a straight line though. He's taking out an opposition player and potentially injuring him.

Evidently you don't care about player safety. Fair enough.

beshocked wrote:

If Payne was competing for the ball he would have had to jump to beat Goode to the ball.

Have a look at the incident again if you can. I first thought it was reckless, but if you look at the whole incident, Payne doesn't know he's in a competition for the ball. His eyes are on the ball for 20+ metres, and subsequently he didn't think he would need to jump.

First thing i want in a rugby game is a fair contest, i was happy to see Vunipola was fit to take a part in this.

But a ref who want to show his strong character with no empathy for the game, no thanks.

LondonTiger wrote:

kunu wrote:it wasn't reckless, thats the point.

In your opinion. And you are entitled to your opinion. Just as the ref is entitled to his. He is an impartial witness to the events, unlike most of us posting about things.


If you can honestly state that you would defend Chris Ashton if he had made that challenge on an Ulster player - then I will accept you are arguing in good faith.

Course, we're all entitled to our opinions and to debate them.

I'd genuinely like other people's views on what i think. It doesn't matter a tap to me who the perpetrator is of the offence is.

Removing subjective opinions -  Payne isn't looking at the player at all. Whatsoever. He is running as fast as he can to get the ball. True, a duty of care exists not to harm a player in the air, even if unintentional. My point is that he never knew a player was in the air, so its hard to apply the same rules. Can't really see how he could have done anything differently.

toml wrote:similar offence - common sense

Yep, should have been the same outcome today...

I will look at it again after I sleep kunu, but I felt (as did Ieuan Evans) that Payne was far more aware of what was going on around him than you do.

the ref was not trigger happy, took his time (aided by the lengthy injury delay) took all the advice and made his decision. Personally I think it was the wrong colour card - but I do believe it was serious enough to warrant removal from the pitch for a period and can see why red was awarded.

LondonTiger wrote:I will look at it again after I sleep kunu, but I felt (as did Ieuan Evans) that Payne was far more aware of what was going on around him than you do.

the ref was not trigger happy, took his time (aided by the lengthy injury delay) took all the advice and made his decision. Personally I think it was the wrong colour card - but I do believe it was serious enough to warrant removal from the pitch for a period and can see why red was awarded.

Fair enough man.

The highlights are up on sky sports website. The way I see it is, Payne is looking up at the ball from his own 22 until he hits Goode just past the halfway. He runs for 30 metres at full pace and then hits Goode chin-first, with his arms out for a catch. In my opinion its a penalty against Payne, but I don't think you can give him a card for what he did. You can't ask players to run slower just in case something unexpected happens.

kunu wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I will look at it again after I sleep kunu, but I felt (as did Ieuan Evans) that Payne was far more aware of what was going on around him than you do.

the ref was not trigger happy, took his time (aided by the lengthy injury delay) took all the advice and made his decision. Personally I think it was the wrong colour card - but I do believe it was serious enough to warrant removal from the pitch for a period and can see why red was awarded.

Fair enough man.

The highlights are up on sky sports website. The way I see it is, Payne is looking up at the ball from his own 22 until he hits Goode just past the halfway. He runs for 30 metres at full pace and then hits Goode chin-first, with his arms out for a catch. In my opinion its a penalty against Payne, but I don't think you can give him a card for what he did. You can't ask players to run slower just in case something unexpected happens.

Exactly Kunu, If you tell a player they aren't allowed to run to the place where the ball is going to drop, and that theya ren't allowed to run at full tilt, we may as well not play.

There is no rule that Payne has to jump just because Goode did. Theres not enough time at that speed to watch if the opponent jumps or not and then do likewise.

Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

kunu wrote:Payne essentially led with his face for the impact also. I think that proves he genuinely didn't know Goode was there. Usually you'll see players lead with the arms in that situation and block their face, or turn their back to the impact.

Spot on again   

Red cards (and any penalty) are designed to discourage foul play.

If there was no foul play to discourage, why penalise so harshly?

What's the message to the rugby playing world?

'Don't run so fast in case your opponent jumps and you don't have time to stop'??

What will this red card discourage players from doing in future exactly?

Back home from the game, yes a yellow card agreed. As far as Ashton and that bloody swallow dive thing uugh!! I do not post on here often and after reading some of the posts tonight this is my last contribution to this site good luck Saracens in the semis

beshocked wrote:The great aukster you say it was an accident. What in your opinion was Payne doing? He did not compete for the ball.

He was running to collect the kick, because he didn't realise he had to 'compete' for the ball. He was looking up to see the ball and Goode was coming in from an angle that meant Payne didn't even see him until the last minute. It's clear on the footage that Payne was as shocked as Goode was with the collision, or in other words it was an accident.

So is Payne free from blame?
No. It is every player's responsibility to ensure that they do their utmost to ensure no injury to opponents or themselves. That would have meant Payne should have taken stock and looked around to see if his run was going to be dangerous, but given it's the first few minutes of a cup quarter final, how many players are going to stop and have a look around? So definite penalty against Payne for running without due care and attention, possible yellow if the referee thought he could have pulled out and didn't, red not even on the spectrum.

Neither set of fans can be happy with Garces. Obviously his decision cost the game from an Ulster perspective but Garces has effectively taken any enjoyment out of the win for Saracens' fans too because they don't know if they would have won if it hadn't been for his controversial decision. Those are the breaks and the luck was with Saracens tonight, so ride it while you can.

That Cooper Vuna one was actually far worse than the Payne one... sickener.

Arguments over the red/yellow card aside.

I think the way Sarries defended the 35 phase attack at the end of the game without giving a pen away was superb & reminded me of the England v Ireland game. Great defensive discipline.

Well played both teams. Farrell should have put the game beyond reach before though IMO.

Valid points on both sides in respect of the Payne incident. I have seen these go either way - a different referee may have reached a different decision and it was probably also a factor that Goode couldn't just bounce straight back up and had to be stretchered off. I haven't seen any medical reports and so I don't know how the player is but I can't help but think that if Goode had broken vertebrae or an arm/leg, then I yellow would have seemed too lenient. I know (before anyone starts) that you can't judge an offence by the injury that it causes, but it all factors into the 'feel' of what a referee decides to do.

I thought that Trimble and Bowe were magnificent in that game - Trimble, in particular, has shot up in my expectations. I used to think he was a bit of a passenger in an Ireland international side. Not any more.

Finally, I think that Sarries still need to be given credit. The tries were well worked and they could only play the diminished team that was put in front of them. Farrell was a real mixed bag - off with the goalkicking but the low, crossfield rifle for Ashton was superb. Remains to be seen if Clermont give them any ball at all to play with, though.

Can I ask that any more discussion of the red card be re-routed to an excellent separate thread which has been set up to discuss it: https://www.606v2.com/t53063-the-payne-goode-incident

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:The great aukster what do you mean by he has empathy for the game? Oh and garces and his tmo had ample of time to make a decision.

Secret fly it's Saracens-Clermont next.

And is Rolland keyed in for that?  Besides, Saracens-Clermont isn't the topic of this thread either.  

Oh talk about whoever you all like but it's only a distraction from the game of tonight.  Ulster will feel cheated out of a HEC semi (either by a trigger happy ref or by a player that gave the ref too much to work with) and Saracens will feel they very much had a 'get out of jail free card' night.  They'll have to get much better than tonight to sting what's coming down the line at them.

Secretfly

If you go back to the last RWC. Sam Warburton got a red card for a tip tackle in the first few minutes of the game. But Warburton's red card, was no where near as dangerous as what pane did yesterday.

When the game was over the look of (pain) on panes face said it all really,( it is my fault Ulster lost tonight. ) do you not think that he feels responsible? i bet he does. Because even though i wanted Sarries to win, i truly believe if Ulster had a full fifteen on the field for the full eighty minutes they would of won.

How is accidentally colliding with another player, without any intent whilst clearly simply trying to catch the ball worse that tipping a player up and driving his head into the ground?
Really?
You think that a spear tackle is worse than an accidental collision?

Catch a grip