Is it time for a European Salary cap?

I'm not a bitter Leinster fan, I'm not even Irish but it seems wrong to me that a team of players mainly brought through the province and at their best a joy to watch have came against a team of mercenaries, albeit ones whom have wholeheartedly bought into their club ethos and give absolutely everything, and have been beaten with relative ease. But that is just the tip of the iceberg, the wealth of the French clubs is killing the domestic game in Wales, the best southern hemisphere talent is generally going to France rather than the RaboDirect or the Aviva and is damaging the French team as an international force. The English clubs launched a campaign against the Heineken Cup following the successes of the Irish provinces claiming they could rest their players and therefore had an unfair advantage but what we're faced with now is two or three French teams saturated with retired Internationals sweeping away all in their path. Toulouse have attempted to keep playing French players and are no longer a European power.

Might just be overreacting but Leinster haven't looked as good this year without Joe Schmidt, I think the old Leinster would have taken that Toulon team,

ridiculous suggestion.

for the french clubs, french public and french media, the top14 is the tournament they all care about. and its the one they want to win.

so to suggest that french clubs should abide by a european salary cap to keep irish and welsh clubs competitive in a competition that the french dont really care about is a complete non-starter.

you can only ever have a salary cap by mutual agreement in the league that generates most of a clubs revenues.

and for rabo clubs yes that's the HC, but for AP and top14 clubs its their domestic competitions.

so you are never ever going to have a european wide salary cap.

quinsforever wrote:ridiculous suggestion.

for the french clubs, french public and french media, the top14 is the tournament they all care about. and its the one they want to win.

so to suggest that french clubs should abide by a european salary cap to keep irish and welsh clubs competitive in a competition that the french dont really care about is a complete non-starter.

you can only ever have a salary cap by mutual agreement in the league that generates most of a clubs revenues.

and for rabo clubs yes that's the HC, but for AP and top14 clubs its their domestic competitions.

so you are never ever going to have a european wide salary cap.

Since when do the French not care about the HC? Jackman (Grenoble head coach) was on RTE last week and he was asked which one he would rather win and he said that the ultimate goal for the club was to win the HC. I also always hear the Exeter chairman saying how they want to win a HC within 5 years etc etc. The HC is where the AP teams get some of their highest attendances.

The reason why you spend all that money is to be the best in Europe or else whats the point?

Oh I wish it could be the case, but the only chance of it ever happening is if there is a European super league in the future. And the chances of that? We can barely agree on a Cup...

lf4l. every french fan and player wants to win the top14. if you think otherwise then you dont understand french rugby. ask a french rugby fan.

jackman (leinster) actually said the team and fans would prefer to win the top14. i watched the interview. he then said that their ultimate goal would be to win the HC. but that felt very much like his own view, not the agenda of club owners, or fans.

french clubs will be getting eur6m per team from the top 14 from next year just for tv rights.

french clubs will be getting eur2m per team from HC/Amlin in the new format next year from tv rights, sponsorship, endorsement and only 3 guaranteed home matches.

you tell me which they are going to focus on? with 2 clubs being relegated every year.

It's somewhat sickening that Toulon boast such a plethora of starts that they could afford to bench Bryan Habana and not use him today!

I'd like a salary cap, although realise it's probably unlikely.
I'd also love to see France introduce a quota system, perhaps not as strict as Ireland, but something to limit the number of NFQ's as it's really affecting the French team.

I't would be perfectly possible to have a Specific salary Cap for the Heineken Cup

Ah will you stop Munster and Leinster have won 5 of the last 6 HCs! This argument has been around for years

tecphobe wrote:I't would be perfectly possible to have a Specific salary Cap for the Heineken Cup

no it wouldnt. it would however be possible to have a foreigh player quota for european competition.

quinsforever wrote:

tecphobe wrote:I't would be perfectly possible to have a Specific salary Cap for the Heineken Cup

no it wouldn't. it would however be possible to have a foreign player quota for European competition.

Course it would be, you would require clubs to declare a squad list at the start of the tournament.Clubs would be allocated at the start of the season. Anyone caught breaching the cap would be allowed to spend less the following year fined banned from the competition etc.

completely disagree.

why would anyone with better players vote to take part in a competition where they cant use them?

maybe if they renamed the HC the "HC awarded for best use of value for money in player salaries"....but as it is, no.

it's perfectly possible for xmas to be moved to june 25th. but it will never happen.

and that's not even getting into the "enforcement" and "monitoring" issues where the competition overseer has absolutely zero power to investigate breaches or enforce any penalties. only works in a self regulated domestic league (LNR and PRL).

quinsforever wrote:lf4l. every french fan and player wants to win the top14. if you think otherwise then you dont understand french rugby. ask a french rugby fan.

jackman (leinster) actually said the team and fans would prefer to win the top14. i watched the interview. he then said that their ultimate goal would be to win the HC. but that felt very much like his own view, not the agenda of club owners, or fans.

Jackman said he was speaking on behalf of the fans and owners. I think I'll take a coaches word over yours tbf. Saying that you would rather win the Top 14 but the ultimate goal is the HC is total contradiction. Every club wants to be the best in Europe that is why they spend all this money.

quinsforever wrote:completely disagree.

why would anyone with better players vote to take part in a competition where they cant use them?

maybe if they renamed the HC the "HC awarded for best use of value for money in player salaries"....but as it is, no.

it's perfectly possible for xmas to be moved to june 25th. but it will never happen.

and that's not even getting into the "enforcement" and "monitoring" issues where the competition overseer has absolutely zero power to investigate breaches or enforce any penalties. only works in a self regulated domestic league (LNR and PRL).

I think there could be a salary cap to stop the wage inflation. Its not like it has to small or anything, It could even be something like 30 million. Most clubs can't even get near that so it wouldn't be a big thing but it would stop the likes of Toulon from getting out of control.

Does anyone really believe that caps work?

Without facy-dan accountants and multi-national financiers etc. they might.

But that's one hell of a proviso.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Does anyone really believe that caps work?

Without facy-dan accountants and multi-national financiers etc. they might.

But that's one hell of a proviso.

As a means of preventing total urine taking yes. But individuals will try and game all systems. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try

That's a reason why caps c/should be based on a proportion of turnover.

But then all of our trusted governments' exchequers would have to become involved...  

I thought the French had a cap, it's just about twice the AP cap. Would have thought that a foreign player restriction would be had to implement with EEC free labour rules, why RFU pay a "bonus" to PRL teams that have certain % of English qualified players in match day squad

I would like nothing more than a salary cap in europe, it might mean we will lose less players, however in a free market system I can't see it ever happening.

Biltong wrote:I would like nothing more than a salary cap in europe, it might mean we will lose less players, however in a free market system I can't see it ever happening.

A Competition like the Heineken cup is by invitation its fairly easy to argue that by entering a competition you agree to be bound by the rules of said competition.

I think the Leinster team of two years ago would have beaten Toulon by 7+. Today's Leinster weren't good enough and it's not because of changes in budget. Teams just get better or worse over time as old players leave and new ones come in. Toulons money didn't make Leinster drop so many passes and miss straight forward tackles.

I think Clermonts budget is just as huge as Toulons and both Leinster and Munster have knocked them out multiple times. At the moment the French budgets aren't a huge problem for the Irish. Yet. We've lost Sexton to Racing Metro but that's it so far. And the IRFU really should have been willing to offer Sexton what they offered Heaslip. He would have stayed in that case.

As long as the Irish sides can keep their best home grown talent in Ireland I'd be confident we'll compete very well with the expensively assembled mercenaries in France. We have beaten them and been beaten by them for years. But they're always good games.

A Europe wide salary cap is a non starter unless all three leagues combined into one Euro Super league. I'd love that. I actually think the English clubs could be convinced. But the French would never go for it.

The only realistic solution to French clubs buying up everyone elses best players that I can think of is for the other 5 nations to figure out how to generate as much money as the French teams. Could a British and Irish tournament to match the financial power of the French be possible?

I'm not worried about us Irish. I think Irish teams will not win the HEC as much anymore but we'll be competitive still.


If I was a southern hemisphere fan I would be worried! When the Aussie captain Mowen quits a year before the world cup to play in France, its a bad sign.


What will happen in the coming year is more and more super rugby players targeted and I think more and more players playing for Australia (especially), NZ and SA.

But that is just the tip of the iceberg, the wealth of the French clubs is killing the domestic game in Wales

Well here's an idea then.

A) Either announce anyone going abroad sacrifices their international selection...

or

B) Take advantage by bringing through more players in regions...which matched with the host of players abroad should give them a great player pool. One player pool in the RABO and another in France. Win win....

profitius wrote:I'm not worried about us Irish. I think Irish teams will not win the HEC as much anymore but we'll be competitive still.


If I was a southern hemisphere fan I would be worried! When the Aussie captain Mowen quits a year before the world cup to play in France, its a bad sign.


What will happen in the coming year is more and more super rugby players targeted and I think more and more players playing for Australia (especially), NZ and SA.

In fairness to Mowen, I think the issue he had was that they are away from home too much (and he has a young child). Doug Howlett said the same that having kids and playing Super Rugby/Tri Nations is very difficult when you are only away from home only a couple of nights a month.

With all the money in France, is it not just going to inflate the players wages. Even the less well off clubs can now afford top signings so the top talent will be less concentrated in a few clubs (like Toulon, Toulouse & Racing?). I think I read somewhere that Clermont were letting someone winger go as they would not meet their wage demands.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think the Leinster team of two years ago would have beaten Toulon by 7+. Today's Leinster weren't good enough and it's not because of changes in budget. Teams just get better or worse over time as old players leave and new ones come in. Toulons money didn't make Leinster drop so many passes and miss straight forward tackles.

I think Clermonts budget is just as huge as Toulons and both Leinster and Munster have knocked them out multiple times. At the moment the French budgets aren't a huge problem for the Irish. Yet. We've lost Sexton to Racing Metro but that's it so far. And the IRFU really should have been willing to offer Sexton what they offered Heaslip. He would have stayed in that case.

As long as the Irish sides can keep their best home grown talent in Ireland I'd be confident we'll compete very well with the expensively assembled mercenaries in France. We have beaten them and been beaten by them for years. But they're always good games.

A Europe wide salary cap is a non starter unless all three leagues combined into one Euro Super league. I'd love that. I actually think the English clubs could be convinced. But the French would never go for it.

The only realistic solution to French clubs buying up everyone elses best players that I can think of is for the other 5 nations to figure out how to generate as much money as the French teams. Could a British and Irish tournament to match the financial power of the French be possible?

An interesting concept.

Would this be based on franchises or a pro/rel league basis?

How would any franchise deadwood be disposed of?

How many away fans would there be in the furthest flung extremities every other week?
Would it repeat the coincidence of 1500+ years accumulated evidence?
i.e. that Western European commerce is dominated by Paris and London plus a few German cities. And the Jerries don't play rugby in any seriousness.

It is an idea that the Sarries, Bath, Toulon and Paris boards might be receptive to though.

Why punish businesses with sound business models? Just because other teams aren't as successful commercially? The Irish are rumoured spend twice as much as the Welsh do on their squads. Toulon get 9m Euros a year in sponsorship. Why should they be restricted just because they have cracked rugby commerce?

Where do you draw the line? Somewhere nice and snug like £7m so it benefits the Irish and English, penalizes the French and makes little difference to the Welsh?

Or shall we make it £3.5m so it penalizes the French, English and Irish?

How much do the Provinces pay of salary? Does anyone actually know? For sure? Is it actually reported anywhere?

In short, no. There shouldn't be a salary cap. If Clubs are making revenue from attendance/merchandise/tv rights then the players are entitled to their cut of it. If individual owners want to buy clubs and put their own hand in their own pocket to improve the quality of players at a club then they have every right to do so. They have to buy a club from someone and the club has ultimately chosen their fate whatever that might be. If the Toulon owner disappeared in the morning or had a life changing experience where third world aid took a priority over cheering a game around an egg-shaped ball, Toulon would have to deal with that change in heart.

If you want to compete, you have to bring yourselves up to that level, not try to drag people back. This is why the IRFU, WRU, SRU, etc need to continue to grow the Pro12. To create a viable and sustainable alternative. Remember the Pro12 didn't even have a sponsor for years, there was plenty of time you were lucky to hear about matches once a week in a newspaper. Considering how young a league it is, I think it is in quite rude health. The marquee fixture of the season got a peak audience of c750,000 on the Irish channel on it's own. When combined, the tv markets could compete with English and French markets to an extent. The Pro12 teams have a higher proportion of active international players plying their trade. It has plenty going for it given time. But it needs guidance and careful attention during that time to ensure it grows in the right way.

HammerofThunor wrote:How much do the Provinces pay of salary? Does anyone actually know? For sure? Is it actually reported anywhere?

Just stump up the €2.50 from the CRO and you can find out for each province. Make sure you pay it for the correct company though. If you want to know about the IFRU finances, I'm fairly sure they are publicly available on their website. Nothing to hide you see.

IRFU are available but I'm cheap Just wondering how much is actually spent. There was someone on here that suggested it was around €7M (for Munster, I think) but it seemed to be a guess.

I think that a cap is a rubbish reaction to toulon beating leinster. We have the same 4 semi-finalist as last year.

is that due to wages. Leinster are on the way down while others are on the way up. All cycles

People have been calling for salary caps for years. Toulon's spending isn't exactly a new phenomenon.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:In short, no. There shouldn't be a salary cap.  If Clubs are making revenue from attendance/merchandise/tv rights then the players are entitled to their cut of it.  If individual owners want to buy clubs and put their own hand in their own pocket to improve the quality of players at a club then they have every right to do so.  They have to buy a club from someone and the club has ultimately chosen their fate whatever that might be. If the Toulon owner disappeared in the morning or had a life changing experience where third world aid took a priority over cheering a game around an egg-shaped ball, Toulon would have to deal with that change in heart.

If you want to compete, you have to bring yourselves up to that level, not try to drag people back.  This is why the IRFU, WRU, SRU, etc need to continue to grow the Pro12. To create a viable and sustainable alternative.  Remember the Pro12 didn't even have a sponsor for years, there was plenty of time you were lucky to hear about matches once a week in a newspaper.  Considering how young a league it is, I think it is in quite rude health.  The marquee fixture of the season got a peak audience of c750,000 on the Irish channel on it's own.  When combined, the tv markets could compete with English and French markets to an extent.  The Pro12 teams have a higher proportion of active international players plying their trade.  It has plenty going for it given time.  But it needs guidance and careful attention during that time to ensure it grows in the right way.

I completely agree with that,it's a pity the French and English clubs didn't feel the same way when they dragged the Rabo teams down by whinging about the qualification rules.

A salary cap isn't something I'd like to see but I do feel that a team should have some relation to their country of origin,Toulon are an excellent team but they are a sad indication of where the game is headed,they could be any team in France,there is nothing to distinguish one side from another as they are just bought.I don't see how any supporter could get pleasure from watching them,the Seinfeld sketch about cheering for the jersies comes to mind.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:In short, no. There shouldn't be a salary cap.  If Clubs are making revenue from attendance/merchandise/tv rights then the players are entitled to their cut of it.  If individual owners want to buy clubs and put their own hand in their own pocket to improve the quality of players at a club then they have every right to do so.  They have to buy a club from someone and the club has ultimately chosen their fate whatever that might be. If the Toulon owner disappeared in the morning or had a life changing experience where third world aid took a priority over cheering a game around an egg-shaped ball, Toulon would have to deal with that change in heart.

If you want to compete, you have to bring yourselves up to that level, not try to drag people back.  This is why the IRFU, WRU, SRU, etc need to continue to grow the Pro12. To create a viable and sustainable alternative.  Remember the Pro12 didn't even have a sponsor for years, there was plenty of time you were lucky to hear about matches once a week in a newspaper.  Considering how young a league it is, I think it is in quite rude health.  The marquee fixture of the season got a peak audience of c750,000 on the Irish channel on it's own.  When combined, the tv markets could compete with English and French markets to an extent.  The Pro12 teams have a higher proportion of active international players plying their trade.  It has plenty going for it given time.  But it needs guidance and careful attention during that time to ensure it grows in the right way.

I completely agree with that,it's a pity the French and English clubs didn't feel the same way when they dragged the Rabo teams down by whinging about the qualification rules.

A salary cap isn't something I'd like to see but I do feel that a team should have some relation to their country of origin,Toulon are an excellent team but they are a sad indication of where the game is headed,they could be any team in France,there is nothing to distinguish one side from another as they are just bought.I don't see how any supporter could get pleasure from watching them,the Seinfeld sketch about cheering for the jersies comes to mind.

well i have to disagree with you about Toulon. They generate EUR9m from sponsorship. Far more than any other club in world rugby. (this helps them fund all those big salaries). So Toulon's french fans, and advertisers in France, clearly very much enjoy the fact that their team is packed with stars and couldnt care less about the relative lack of french players.

your view on club rugby is parochial and nationalistic. French and English club fans want to see their teams win and dont really care where their players come from, or whether they are being groomed for the national side.

A slight tangent, and an as yet not fully thought thru idea, but should clubs be able to run at a loss year after year?

There's plenty do it, some for whom it is a temporary phenomenon and recovering to profitability in a couple of years, and other that do it permanently with a rich backer simply dipping further into their pocket to cover the annual losses (or provide assets to cover loans)

As, would that include Union teams as well?

HammerofThunor wrote:How much do the Provinces pay of salary? Does anyone actually know? For sure? Is it actually reported anywhere?

Well a couple of years back Shane Logan said that the salaries at the 3 senior Irish provinces and Ospreys were roughly the same as the top English teams and that was inclusive of the centrally contracted players.

Now I supect Ospreys have gone down in the interim.
There is nonsense talk regarding salaries in Irleand on Gwlad - best ignored.
I remember looking at the Leicester and Ulster squads a couple of years back and Leicester had 43 full time professional and Ulster had 34.
So Ulster compete at the top level but do not have the strength in depth of Leicester

Leicester also bring in a lot of no-names on the cheap to get that squad.

But if you add in the centrally contracted players then the Provincial squads cost more overall? (or at least did...roughly)

EDIT: I never look at Gwlad

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:A slight tangent, and an as yet not fully thought thru idea, but should clubs be able to run at a loss year after year?

There's plenty do it, some for whom it is a temporary phenomenon and recovering to profitability in a couple of years, and other that do it permanently with a rich backer simply dipping further into their pocket to cover the annual losses (or provide assets to cover loans)

It's a tricky one. You have a few options:

1) Limit salary cap based on turnover to try and assure that a club doesn't make a lose. This would result in lots of significantly weaker squads and the clubs with the biggest turnover would be able to buy up all the best players, making it harder to draw in support to the lower sides.

2) You lower the salary cap based on the lowest turnover, this would encourage clubs to work together to build the central pot but also would seriously hamper any chance of competing with others in terms of squad strength (player drain etc, it would turn all the clubs into the equivalent of the regions).

3) I thought I had three Well I suppose you could get rid of caps completely. But that would encourage those teams with wealthy backers to pump in the money to buy up the better players, either killing off those that try to live within their means or encourage them to do the same to complete.

Personally I think the current system where the cap is tied to central income but it's large enough to compete in Europe (compete not win).

HammerofThunor wrote:Leicester also bring in a lot of no-names on the cheap to get that squad.

But if you add in the centrally contracted players then the Provincial squads cost more overall? (or at least did...roughly)

EDIT: I never look at Gwlad

Well Shane Logan said it did include the central contracted players.
I understand that Leicester have a bunch of low paid additions but within the 34 of Ulster their are a few of those as well, when you add in the 6/8 youngsters who are not on much the number with siginifcant salaries is only 20 or so.

I happen to know a few of the salaries, roughly, and one exactly.
For obvious reason I cant say who it is or what the salary is

Do the Irish even have a salary cap?

beshocked wrote:Do the Irish even have a salary cap?

self imposed but can't really run loss, well not planned anyway

geoff wrote:I happen to know a few of the salaries, roughly, and one exactly.
For obvious reason I cant say who it is or what the salary is

So your point is?

No.
Let me take a guess.
9½"?

My point is the figures I have heard suggest that what Shane Logan said I accurate i.e the senior provinces have a salary level roughly the same as the top English sides

PS Where you born a jerk or did you train for it !

beshocked wrote:Do the Irish even have a salary cap?

As stated the answer is no but they do have a budget imposed by the IRFU which currently puts them at the same level as the top English sides

Geoffrey, I did take that post into account.

It still makes no sense.





I trained btw.

Fair play to you for not reacting.

My point is a simple one I am aware of a number of Ulster salaries - that information means. I believe, I can make an educated extrapolation that Shane Logan was telling the truth when he equated the salary levels at Ulster and the other senior Irish provinces as being , roughly, similar to the top English sides.

So it's about a comment made by Logan two years ago and a situation like now where it is rumoured that the IRFU is feeling forced to hike its pay structure to secure the services of its marquee players to stem a potential exodus.

What was Logan's authority to base his comment back then? Is he an IRFU official, a journo or what?

OK I googled him.

geoff wrote:    
Re: Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

Post by geoff998rugby on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:38 am
One observation from a year ago:

Shane Logan publically stated that the total wage bill of the 3 Provinces, including all Central Contracts, was the same.

I presume that that is not the comment you referred to (three years ago). I can't locate it otherwise.