Aviva Premiership - Round 19

First topic message reminder :

Table:

Pos	Team	__Pld__	__Won__	_Drawn_	_Lost_	__For__	_Against_	__TF__	__TA__	__TBP__	__LBP__	__Pts__
1	Saracens	18	16	0	2	507	260	53	27	8	0	72
2	Northampton Saints	18	14	1	3	451	269	52	22	5	2	65
3	Leicester Tigers	18	12	2	4	422	342	43	30	4	2	58
4	Bath Rugby	18	12	1	5	410	313	40	32	3	2	55
5	Sale Sharks	18	11	0	7	323	296	31	25	2	5	51
6	Harlequins	18	11	0	7	337	288	32	26	2	3	49
7	London Wasps	18	7	0	11	341	364	33	33	2	9	39
8	Gloucester Rugby	18	7	0	11	328	425	33	46	2	6	36
9	Exeter Chiefs	18	7	0	11	324	349	28	34	1	6	35
10	London Irish	18	5	0	13	283	390	24	37	0	6	26
11	Newcastle Falcons	18	3	0	15	200	414	15	45	1	6	19
12	Worcester Warriors	18	1	0	17	224	440	18	45	0	6	10

Fixtures:

Fri 11th Apr 14
19:45 Sale Sharks  v   Harlequins BT Sport

Sat 12th Apr 14
15:00 Leicester Tigers  v   London Wasps
15:00        Worcester Warriors  v   Exeter Chiefs
15:15 Gloucester Rugby  v   Bath Rugby BT Sport

Sun 13th Apr 14
14:00 Saracens  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
15:00 London Irish  v   Newcastle Falcons

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe  Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Luckily for England's sake that Lancaster doesn't think like you!

 
+1
 
Cueto?
 
PMSL
 
Your attempts to discredit Nowell are becoming farcical Beshocked. Of your suggestions, Cueto is too old (replaced at international level years ago). Yarde Wade and Benjamin were injured. Ashton has been dropped and Strettle has had a go. the rest are as untried and raw as Nowell was. Nowell can cover full back and positionally, he was sound. England are scoring tries a plenty through the pack and centres, why be concerned that Nowell isn't prolific?. The stats (and yes, they are the basis for the full story like it or not) suggest he had a solid enough tournament. It is opinion that he struggled, however, in this particular case, it is demonstrable that that opinion is wrong.

That's a fantastic comment Jimpy.

Don't worry about playing a winger with little scoring threat because the centres & pack score tries?!?!

Sarge, pinch yersel, quick man, yer verging into beshocked-delusional territory! Gie yersel a good slap aroon the chops. Better? Good

nathan wrote:are we seriously arguing that Ashton should now be included again? these things really do go around in full circle. The moment Ashton is included again you guys will be asking for him to be dropped again!

I think it very much depends upon where your club allegience lies. Ashton is a solid winger, but for me, he's had his day at international level. Nonetheless, he will likely replace Nowell (or at least Nowell will compliment Ashton's selection) on the forthcoming tour. Nothing particularly wrong with that. But, if you believe Beshocked, we've got so many better wingers just sitting around waiting for a match, Lancaster is going to have a real headache come selection time...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe  Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Luckily for England's sake that Lancaster doesn't think like you!

 
+1
 
Cueto?
 
PMSL
 
Your attempts to discredit Nowell are becoming farcical Beshocked. Of your suggestions, Cueto is too old (replaced at international level years ago). Yarde Wade and Benjamin were injured. Ashton has been dropped and Strettle has had a go. the rest are as untried and raw as Nowell was. Nowell can cover full back and positionally, he was sound. England are scoring tries a plenty through the pack and centres, why be concerned that Nowell isn't prolific?. The stats (and yes, they are the basis for the full story like it or not) suggest he had a solid enough tournament. It is opinion that he struggled, however, in this particular case, it is demonstrable that that opinion is wrong.

That's a fantastic comment Jimpy.

Don't worry about playing a winger with little scoring threat because the centres & pack score tries?!?!

Thankyou, it's about time.

I actually said it shouldn't be of concern, not that it shouldn't be addressed. A try, is a try, is a try. If indeed, it needs addressing, then surely team doctrine will have to be changed to facilitate greater involvement by the wingers as attacking threats. May gets the ball and crabs across the field looking for gaps, a blatant handicap, but few are criticising him.

May wasn't great either (as I posted earlier) but he scares defences as nobody knows where he'll run and he very quick.

I can't believe we're suggesting not to worry about the wings not being a scoring threat because other players are scoring tries, I find that totally bizarre.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May wasn't great either (as I posted earlier) but he scares defences as nobody knows where he'll run and he very quick.

I can't believe we're suggesting not to worry about the wings not being a scoring threat because other players are scoring tries, I find that totally bizarre.

On the contrary, they know exactly where he's going to run. Sideways.

And again, you're twisting words. I said, it shouldn't be of concern while other players are scoring - because it can be addressed if necessary (although it may involve a change in team doctrine).

Clearly, we wont agree. It remains to be seen (and I hope it does) if Nowell can progress to your satisfaction.

I can't agree Jimpy.

I want all of our back 3 options to scare the opposition every time they get the ball. I want wingers that can score or at least threaten the try line.

Wade, Yarde, Ashton should be ahead of Nowell imo

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May wasn't great either (as I posted earlier) but he scares defences as nobody knows where he'll run and he very quick.

I can't believe we're suggesting not to worry about the wings not being a scoring threat because other players are scoring tries, I find that totally bizarre.

Nobody knows where Poorfour Jr will run and he's very quick too. Doesn't mean he should play for England.

We do need wingers who can score tries, but that doesn't mean we need to dismiss them instantly if they aren't scoring them. To my mind there are three critical questions: are they getting into the right positions? are they getting the ball when they're in those positions? are they finishing when they get the ball?

Look at Brown last year. He didn't score, but he was regularly in the right position to take the pass, and usually (judging by the photos) screaming for the ball. Under the circumstances, it's pretty clear that Lancaster didn't mark him down for not scoring. Ashton on the other hand was often in the right place and was getting the passes - but wasn't finishing anything like as well as in previous seasons.

This season, neither winger got the ball much. For one thing, the success of using Brown as a strike weapon within the 22 meant that the ball was going to him and often didn't need to go any further. Both of them were in the right sort of area, but I was more worried by May's positioning than Nowell's. May often received the ball when he was too flat and too static, meaning he had to do his sideways thing to try to find space. That will partly be down to communication with the centres, but he needs to work on his timing as well. Nowell was on the right wing, where you're always less likely to get the ball (one reason Ashton is praised for coming off his wing), and he generally got it in heavier traffic but at least made yards. He does need to work on looking for the ball more, but it seems to me he began by playing the patterns and improved as he got more familiar (this is very typical for new players in Lancaster's sides, so it may be they are all encouraged to nail the basics before being given licence to do more). His try against Italy encouraged me - ok, it was only against Italy, but he saw space outside Brown, got into it and called for the ball when Brown would typically have just gone for it.

alasbut100ofus I am deluded yet an Exeter fan backing their player who struggles to score tries isn't? You're just as biased as myself.

Ashton scores an awful lot more tries than Nowell - that's the reality. If you compare the amount this season it's embarrassing. 15 to 1 I think.

Now you might say to me oh well Nowell is a better tackler, breaks more tackles etc - it's not the same as someone who makes a noticeable impact on the score sheet with tries.

England are creating enough chances from the half backs,centres and full back now - a notable try scorer is always useful.

Sgt Pooly is deluded because he disagrees with you?

Nowell isn't really a winger - he's a full back who has been shoe horned into the wing position - sound familiar?

Yappysnap how are Nowell and Ashton similar types of wingers? Couldn't be more different in my opinion. One is a notable try scorer, the other struggles to score - his only coming when he was basically on the try line anyway. Nowell is more of a full back than a wing - it's obviously why Lancaster loves him.

On his club form Ashton is a shoe in. He was in similar form playing for Saracens when being anonymous for England though hence why he was dropped, along with his defence. I think he'll be back, I would be very surprised if he didn't tour NZ.

beshocked wrote:alasbut100ofus I am deluded yet an Exeter fan backing their player who struggles to score tries isn't? You're just as biased as myself.

Ashton scores an awful lot more tries than Nowell - that's the reality. If you compare the amount this season it's embarrassing. 15 to 1 I think.

Now you might say to me oh well Nowell is a better tackler, breaks more tackles etc - it's not the same as someone who makes a noticeable impact on the score sheet with tries.

England are creating enough chances from the half backs,centres and full back now - a notable try scorer is always useful.

Sgt Pooly is deluded because he disagrees with you?

Nowell isn't really a winger - he's a full back who has been shoe horned into the wing position - sound familiar?

Yappysnap how are Nowell and Ashton similar types of wingers? Couldn't be more different in my opinion. One is a notable try scorer, the other struggles to score - his only coming when he was basically on the try line anyway. Nowell is more of a full back than a wing - it's obviously why Lancaster loves him.

Ha, ha, you are right, I would be biased, hence the reason that I deliberately did not attempt to argue the case FOR Nowell's inclusion, and stuck merely to pointing out the failings in the arguments of those AGAINST it

no 7 & 1/2 not sure I think it's fair to compare the England attack in the AIs to the one in the 6 nations.

Let's be honest - England have not utilised Ashton well under Lancaster so far. Hasn't been helped by a 10 who had struggled to get the attack flowing (Farrell now is a much more creative 10 these days), a centre partnership that had defensive solidity but not one for utlising the wingers (Barritt-Tuilagi).

This England side now have a potent attacking threat at 15, a centre partnership which seems to be creating more and a halfback combo which have really clicked.

Poorfour you don't think the wingers have had much ball? I would say they have had plenty in the 6 nations.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 not sure I think it's fair to compare the England attack in the AIs to the one in the 6 nations.

Let's be honest - England have not utilised Ashton well under Lancaster so far. Hasn't been helped by a 10 who had struggled to get the attack flowing (Farrell now is a much more creative 10 these days), a centre partnership that had defensive solidity but not one for utlising the wingers (Barritt-Tuilagi).

This England side now have a potent attacking threat at 15, a centre partnership which seems to be creating more and a halfback combo which have really clicked.

Poorfour you don't think the wingers have had much ball? I would say they have had plenty in the 6 nations.

I would agree they had more ball in the 6n...but im not sure they were still getting the ball in great positions. Hopefully this will continue to improve though.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 not sure I think it's fair to compare the England attack in the AIs to the one in the 6 nations.

Let's be honest - England have not utilised Ashton well under Lancaster so far. Hasn't been helped by a 10 who had struggled to get the attack flowing (Farrell now is a much more creative 10 these days), a centre partnership that had defensive solidity but not one for utlising the wingers (Barritt-Tuilagi).

This England side now have a potent attacking threat at 15, a centre partnership which seems to be creating more and a halfback combo which have really clicked.

Poorfour you don't think the wingers have had much ball? I would say they have had plenty in the 6 nations.

Not comparing it, just saying that form for club doesn't always come through to the international scene.

I thought the Welsh gave the back three nice ball to run back because of their poor kick chase for example.

I would say that the wingers were the worst in the backline for getting the ball in a great position - their own doing I would say. Most of the other backs got themselves in decent positions.

Noticeably Brown and Burrell whose support play was excellent - no surprise they scored a few tries. Plus the finishing was brilliant - certainly from Brown who for his tries had quite a bit to do.

Although this is primarily focused on finishing chances it's unfair to forget what May and Nowell did bring to the team in terms of beating players, defense etc.

no 7 & 1/2 people like to talk about beating defenders but they can in some cases be irrelevant.

What for example if you beat a defender then get isolated and turned over? That's not a gain. Or if you beat a defender then drop the ball etc.

Surely wingers should be primarily finishers and excellent support players? I know Lancaster likes his full backs but it lessens the threat of the back three as a strike force if the primary role is a defensive one.

May might have beaten players whilst drifting along but how many meaningful metres did he make?

Yup all true. Focusing on one aspect means you miss the big picture. Ashton is an out and out finisher who may flourish in the more attacking team picture, or may not. Nowell wasn't sparkling but he did have some very good moments. Think it was him who had the mini break from a position of danger which led up to the try against Ireland. Something I don't think Ashton would have done so it's important to think of the pros and cons. Lets face it the guys Lancaster wants to try out are Yarde and Wade who are very different again. Come the next 6Ns we should have a very good idea of whos in real contention.

Out of interest...how many tries did England score this 6n?
And who scored them?

14.

And who scored them?

England players. There's always google.

GeordieFalcon wrote:And who scored them?

 Johnny May?

Brown (4)
Burrell  (3)
Care (2)
Farrell
Nowell
M Vunipola
Tuilagi
Robshaw


edited as I wrongly attributed the Try against Ireland to Brown

LondonTiger wrote:Brown (5)
Burrell  (3)
Farrell
Nowell
M Vunipola
Tuilagi
Robshaw
Care

 and out of those who had the tries per minute played...

 Tuilagi therefore tulagi was our best attacking player.

 No argument.

Welly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Brown (5)
Burrell  (3)
Farrell
Nowell
M Vunipola
Tuilagi
Robshaw
Care

 and out of those who had the tries per minute played...

 Tuilagi therefore tulagi was our best attacking player.

 No argument.

It will be interesting to see how many tries were scored by the other 6N teams' wingers - then we'll be able to say for sure if having a winger that doesn't score many tries is a worry...

The following shows everyone who has scored more than two trys sinc eSL took over (with starts)

EM Tuilagi 13 7
MN Brown 18 4
DS Care 9 4
CJ Ashton 19 3
LD Burrell 5 3
WWF Twelvetrees 11 3
BR Youngs 10 3
OA Farrell 19 2
BJ Foden 10 2
CC Hodgson 2 2
JO Launchbury 17 2
BJ Morgan 12 2
CDC Robshaw 24 2
C Sharples 3 2
MXG Yarde 2 2

are you including the barbarian games as I don't think you should really.

In total I make that 43 tries with 7 coming from wingers.

13 players have scored 1 try 3 from wingers (Nowell, Strettle and Monye).


So in total I make that 56 tries scored under SL with 10 coming from wingers (<20%)

Welly wrote:are you including the barbarian games as I don't think you should really.

they are not international - only used capped matches.

cheers

 Intersting stats there can imagine that the other 6 Nations teams will be around that.

 Would reckon the SH teams wingers % will be more.

Welly wrote:cheers

 Intersting stats there can imagine that the other 6 Nations teams will be around that.

 Would reckon the SH teams wingers % will be more.

Over the same time period :

Wales have scored 50 tries with Cuthbert (10) and North (9) being the leading scorers and 3 others from the wings.
Scotland 36 with 14 from wingers
Ireland 57 with 27 from wingers.



Read into that what you will.

beshocked wrote:

Ashton scores an awful lot more tries than Nowell - that's the reality. If you compare the amount this season it's embarrassing. 15 to 1 I think.

I'm pretty sure you were quoting similar stats last year in the debate as to whether Marland Yarde should be included for England, yet I would imagine that the majority would probably have Yarde as first choice wing when fit now.

Give the kid a chance, he did ok in the 6 Nations. Did he stand out as world class attacking threat? Absolutely not. Did he show character to put mistakes behind him quickly and move on and contribute to some good England performances? Absolutely he did. Should he be first choice if everyone is fit. No, but he should be given the opportunity to develop and see where he gets to as he certainly has the potential to be a very good player.

LondonTiger wrote:

Welly wrote:cheers

 Intersting stats there can imagine that the other 6 Nations teams will be around that.

 Would reckon the SH teams wingers % will be more.

Over the same time period :

Wales have scored 50 tries with Cuthbert (10) and North (9) being the leading scorers and 3 others from the wings.
Scotland 36 with 14 from wingers
Ireland 57 with 27 from wingers.



Read into that what you will.

That is interesting, LT - so either Eng have totally crepe wingers, or make more/better use of scoring threats in other positions?

LondonTiger wrote:The following shows everyone who has scored more than two trys sinc eSL took over (with starts)

EM Tuilagi 13 7
MN Brown 18 4
DS Care 9 4
CJ Ashton 19 3
LD Burrell 5 3
WWF Twelvetrees 11 3
BR Youngs 10 3
OA Farrell 19 2
BJ Foden 10 2
CC Hodgson 2 2
JO Launchbury 17 2
BJ Morgan 12 2
CDC Robshaw 24 2
C Sharples 3 2
MXG Yarde 2 2

Beshocked...i thought he was a try scoring winger?   

Sorry just messing.

In all honesty up until this 6n i think we were all totally dismayed with Englands attack. This 6n was a pleasant surprise...but i still dont think it was perfect...

Ill be the middle man.

Nowell wasnt brilliant...but i think the serious criticism of him is wrong aswell. Im not convinced that Ashton would have scored a bucket load this 6n either. i dont think the England wingers got a load of chances and that wasnt through lack of looking for the ball, or ability etc i just think we played a style this 6n that seemed to give our centres and fb more space than our wingers.  

England are playing their wingers a certain way...maybe this will progress, and they will get more opportunities. May and Nowell might not be there when Yarde, Wade, etc are back fully fit. Yarde will probably start in NZ.

But i cant accept the slating that Nowell is getting.

So would that make Nowell's 1 in 5 starts better than Splashton's 3 in 19?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Welly wrote:cheers

 Intersting stats there can imagine that the other 6 Nations teams will be around that.

 Would reckon the SH teams wingers % will be more.

Over the same time period :

Wales have scored 50 tries with Cuthbert (10) and North (9) being the leading scorers and 3 others from the wings.
Scotland 36 with 14 from wingers
Ireland 57 with 27 from wingers.



Read into that what you will.

That is interesting, LT - so either Eng have totally crepe wingers, or make more/better use of scoring threats in other positions?

My appraisal is that English team doctrine ensures that wingers aren't a primary attacking weapon. Also that this doesn't matter, because the tries are coming from elsewhere, who is scoring doesn't really matter does it? As long as someone is scoring.

Nowell isn't prolific, but then English wingers aren't really are they.... so, lets not get worried about it. As i'ver said before, if it becomes a concern (and surely it isn't) then it can be addressed. Heck, even our centres are scoring now, it wont be long before somebody has the idea to involve 11 and 14 too...

Ozzy3213 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Ashton scores an awful lot more tries than Nowell - that's the reality. If you compare the amount this season it's embarrassing. 15 to 1 I think.

I'm pretty sure you were quoting similar stats last year in the debate as to whether Marland Yarde should be included for England, yet I would imagine that the majority would probably have Yarde as first choice wing when fit now.

Give the kid a chance, he did ok in the 6 Nations.  Did he stand out as world class attacking threat?  Absolutely not.  Did he show character to put mistakes behind him quickly and move on and contribute to some good England performances?  Absolutely he did.   Should he be first choice if everyone is fit.  No, but he should be given the opportunity to develop and see where he gets to as he certainly has the potential to be a very good player.

To be honest, Pete, what is truly embarrassing is that someone would put faith in such a comparison. One plays for the top team in the AP, the other for the team that is currently ranked 7th; unless one could conjecture with a reasonable degree of accuracy how many times Ashton might have scored for Exe in the same games that Nowell has played (remembering he's been injured for a fair chunk of this season), then no comparison on this basis can be sensibly made

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:So would that make Nowell's 1 in 5 starts better than Splashton's 3 in 19?!

 
It's great isn't it... but as i've said before, the praise of Ashton (at club level - not international level    ) very much depends on whose mast your colours are nailed to.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Ashton scores an awful lot more tries than Nowell - that's the reality. If you compare the amount this season it's embarrassing. 15 to 1 I think.

I'm pretty sure you were quoting similar stats last year in the debate as to whether Marland Yarde should be included for England, yet I would imagine that the majority would probably have Yarde as first choice wing when fit now.

Give the kid a chance, he did ok in the 6 Nations.  Did he stand out as world class attacking threat?  Absolutely not.  Did he show character to put mistakes behind him quickly and move on and contribute to some good England performances?  Absolutely he did.   Should he be first choice if everyone is fit.  No, but he should be given the opportunity to develop and see where he gets to as he certainly has the potential to be a very good player.

To be honest, Pete, what is truly embarrassing is that someone would put faith in such a comparison.  One plays for the top team in the AP, the other for the team that is currently ranked 7th; unless one could conjecture with a reasonable degree of accuracy how many times Ashton might have scored for Exe in the same games that Nowell has played (remembering he's been injured for a fair chunk of this season), then no comparison on this basis can be sensibly made

'Shocked' lives and breaths stats to make his points, which is fair enough. However, I do find it ironic that the only person vehemently agreeing with him regarding Nowell appears to regard stats as some kind of veiled lie that cannot be relied upon.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Over the same time period :

Wales have scored 50 tries with Cuthbert (10) and North (9) being the leading scorers and 3 others from the wings.
Scotland 36 with 14 from wingers
Ireland 57 with 27 from wingers.



Read into that what you will.

That is interesting, LT - so either Eng have totally crepe wingers, or make more/better use of scoring threats in other positions?

The wings seem to be told to stay out on their wing, this keeps the defensive line spread across the pitch and allows breaks through the middle from fullback, centres, scrum half, etc. IMO of course.

Ever since his ban for hair pulling back in December 2011 (and quite possibly ever since he was assualted by Manu in April of the same year) Ashtons form for Ngland has been poor. He bacame a non-tackling, non scoring Winger who was largely in the team on reputation and due to injuries to other players. Quite simply he had to be dropped for the 6Ns - even though the two favoured wings were still injured.

We have seen that SL likes the "security" of FBs on the wing. Brown and Foden have both featured there, while May, Nowell and Watson are all in the FB/Winger mould. He also likes the wingers to stand very wide. It can be argued that this stretched the defence thin, giving room for the centres to score, but at the same time it removes the outside break from the wingers armoury.

Now back to Ashton, he is back in try scoring form for Saracens (helped that they are a fairly dominant team) and is one try away from breaking he record for tries in an HEC season. He will probably (and fairly enough) be selected in the squad for NZ - but will also probably miss the first week due to the AP final. this will make it difficult for him to force hi sway into the team, and as an out and out winger we are unlikely to see him on the bench.

As I said at the beginning, Ashton had to be dropped. his performances were shockingly bad and no-one deserves to stay in the team when playing that poorly. That his replacement(s) did not set the world on fire does not make thye decision to drop him wrong - it just means they did not make a case for automatic starting jerseys. Ashton does deserve a lot of credit and praise for going back to his club and scoring tries (and unlike last season not getting sin-binned very other game).

HammerofThunor wrote:
The wings seem to be told to stay out on their wing, this keeps the defensive line spread across the pitch and allows breaks through the middle from fullback, centres, scrum half, etc.  IMO of course.

Looks like we are of the same opinion

Without digging out all the single try scorers, it looks like England have scored fairly even numbers of tries through the centres, back three, halfbacks and pack. I find that quite encouraging - it means that they can attack from anywhere and that will keep teams guessing.

England don't have wings like North and Cuthbert who can just plough through defences once they get going (though Tuilagi is obviously similar and Brown is emerging as a similar kind of threat, albeit by dragging defenders with him rather than going through them), so I wouldn't expect us to have quite the bias they have towards tries on the wing.

Poorfour wrote:Without digging out all the single try scorers, it looks like England have scored fairly even numbers of tries through the centres, back three, halfbacks and pack. I find that quite encouraging - it means that they can attack from anywhere and that will keep teams guessing.

England don't have wings like North and Cuthbert who can just plough through defences once they get going (though Tuilagi is obviously similar and Brown is emerging as a similar kind of threat, albeit by dragging defenders with him rather than going through them), so I wouldn't expect us to have quite the bias they have towards tries on the wing.

Back 3 - 16
Centres - 15
Half Backs - 13
Pack - 12

Jimpy his try scoring record is worse than not prolific.


alasbut100ofus


You seem to think it's fair to completely ignore all of Ashton's tries at international level except for 3. Very strange indeed.

I include overall stats.

Nowell's try strike rate at international level is 20%. Ashton's international strike rate is 48.50%.

Nowell's  try strike rate in the HC is 0%. Ashton's try rate % is 65.6% in the HC.

Nowell's try strike rate is 11.7% in the AP. Ashton's try strike rate is 56.4% in the AP

I just find it funny that you make excuses for Nowell's laughably poor strike rate. Wade hasn't had problems scoring tries for Wasps. Even a winger like Lemi in the worst side in the AP has 6 this season. Exeter are not a bad side.

Nowell's try scoring record is not even passable - it's basically non existent. That is my biggest problem.

Ozzy3123 what exactly has Yarde done in the last 6 months to warrant being 1st choice? Even when he's come back from injury he's hardly shone. He has not scored a try in the AP since September! I do find it baffling that you don't believe that tries are important.

You might say oh well tries don't matter, they'll come from somewhere else - that's not always a guarantee.

It was Huget's two tries vs England that sunk us - guess what position he plays.....

He had a good 6 nations because he scored some crucial tries for France.

Nowell's try was in the drubbing of Italy when the flood gates had already been opened by his team mates.

Brown and Burrell have been doing what the wingers should be - running good support lines and finishing off moves.

I don't believe the notion that Nowell and May's efforts gave Burrell,Brown,Care etc the space and confidence to score tries.

Beshocked do you believe it was wrong to drop Ashton?

beshocked wrote:Jimpy his try scoring record is worse than not prolific.


alasbut100ofus


You seem to think it's fair to completely ignore all of Ashton's tries at international level except for 3. Very strange indeed.

I include overall stats.

Nowell's try strike rate at international level is 20%. Ashton's international strike rate is 48.50%.

Nowell's  try strike rate in the HC is 0%. Ashton's try rate % is 65.6% in the HC.

Nowell's try strike rate is 11.7% in the AP. Ashton's try strike rate is 56.4% in the AP

I just find it funny that you make excuses for Nowell's laughably poor strike rate. Wade hasn't had problems scoring tries for Wasps. Even a winger like Lemi in the worst side in the AP has 6 this season. Exeter are not a bad side.

Nowell's try scoring record is not even passable - it's basically non existent. That is my biggest problem.

Ozzy3123 what exactly has Yarde done in the last 6 months to warrant being 1st choice? Even when he's come back from injury he's hardly shone. He has not scored a try in the AP since September! I do find it baffling that you don't believe that tries are important.

You might say oh well tries don't matter, they'll come from somewhere else - that's not always a guarantee.

It was Huget's two tries vs England that sunk us - guess what position he plays.....

He had a good 6 nations because he scored some crucial tries for France.

Nowell's try was in the drubbing of Italy when the flood gates had already been opened by his team mates.

Brown and Burrell have been doing what the wingers should be - running good support lines and finishing off moves.

I don't believe the notion that Nowell and May's efforts gave Burrell,Brown,Care etc the space and confidence to score tries.

Where did I say tries are not important? You are just making stuff up now. Have you even watched Yarde since he came back from injury? Of course try scoring is important, but so are other aspects of the game.

Nowell and May did contribute to the teams play of course they did. The defence for Ashton is that he scored lots at the start of his England career, continues to score lots for Saracens, and he may have scored more than Nowell and May this 6Ns. I would have started with Ashton this 6Ns but given his England form prior to that is anyone really surprised he was dropped?

beshocked wrote:Jimpy his try scoring record is worse than not prolific.


alasbut100ofus


You seem to think it's fair to completely ignore all of Ashton's tries at international level except for 3. Very strange indeed.

I include overall stats.

Nowell's try strike rate at international level is 20%. Ashton's international strike rate is 48.50%.

Nowell's try strike rate in the HC is 0%. Ashton's try rate % is 65.6% in the HC.

Nowell's try strike rate is 11.7% in the AP. Ashton's try strike rate is 56.4% in the AP
I just find it funny that you make excuses for Nowell's laughably poor strike rate. Wade hasn't had problems scoring tries for Wasps. Even a winger like Lemi in the worst side in the AP has 6 this season. Exeter are not a bad side.

Nowell's try scoring record is not even passable - it's basically non existent. That is my biggest problem.

Ozzy3123 what exactly has Yarde done in the last 6 months to warrant being 1st choice? Even when he's come back from injury he's hardly shone. He has not scored a try in the AP since September! I do find it baffling that you don't believe that tries are important.

You might say oh well tries don't matter, they'll come from somewhere else - that's not always a guarantee.

It was Huget's two tries vs England that sunk us - guess what position he plays.....

He had a good 6 nations because he scored some crucial tries for France.

Nowell's try was in the drubbing of Italy when the flood gates had already been opened by his team mates.

Brown and Burrell have been doing what the wingers should be - running good support lines and finishing off moves.

I don't believe the notion that Nowell and May's efforts gave Burrell,Brown,Care etc the space and confidence to score tries.

All meaningless.

Nowell has played 5 games for England, how many has Ashton played in?

Exeter have hardly got a long history of European rugby, and Nowell is a relative newcomer to the team.

As for the AP, again, Nowell is a relative newcomer in a relatively new team to the AP, in a team that doesn't really utilise wingers as an attacking threat.

Don't worry lad, we'll get you over your irrational dislike for Nowell eventually, perhaps Saracens should sign him, would you love him then?

Jimpy Only meaningless to you because you disagree!

You defend Nowell for being a newcomer but were happy to see him thrown in vs France away with no try scoring pedigree or experience.....

My biggest problem with Nowell is his woeful try scoring record and lack of game time.

My dislike is not irrational. I do not think that Lancaster's faith in Nowell was vindicated. I feel he contributed to the France defeat yet his role is largely ignored.

I don't necessarily think he is a bad player - just overrated and thrown in the deep end too early.

Ozzy Other aspects of the game....finishing is integral for a winger. Well obviously tries mean nothing to you when you advocate wingers who don't score them often!

Londontiger against France away, yes it was a very poor decision which cost England dear with hindsight. That lack of experience on the wing was costly. Lancaster took a gamble on the wings which failed. Perhaps Ashton on the wing might have not made a difference but he's the more experienced option and a far better finisher. It might have made a difference.