Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Ok following the match thread and just the forum in general, it appears now that the European cup has been sorted, it looks like Sarries are back to being the arch villians of NH rugby.

So i would like to ask this. Why do they attract so much dislike?

Its full of saffers! 5 in the whole squad(inc acadamy)
They ground share! Nope got a nice shiney new stadium
They have no support! still fill 10k most weeks(ok on here its just beshocked and myself)
Their boring! Nope second highest trys scored in AP and higest in HC
Their a small club! Everyone has to start small(unless your told your now a region)
Their new money!! Sorry they played by the rules when it was the amature days and did not pay players like some of the bigger old money clubs hence they stayed small
They have Borthwick/Ashton/Farrell....!! Yep we do, funny how people only see the bad when they are no longer your players. And im sure your side is full of lovable players! Hartley/Youngs/Care/Clarke........

So i hope that covered all the old repetative stuff. So why are they still the side no one likes?

Sarries Pro's-
-Their outstanding community work
-They've now built a strong academy
-A more expansive total rugby style
-They have a very good pitch

Sarries Con's-
-How they handled getting rid of a lot of players a few years back
-A lot of their misfiring marketing
-Tactics such as the caterpillar at the ruck, which was horrific antirugby
-Their gameplan for neutrals to watch can be like watching paint dry
-They do have a very big squad comparitively, but players will do anything for an IPad apparently
-Griffiths
-Venter
-Ashton (for some people)

How about they stop telling blatent lies and being responsible for their own failures:

Twickenham rings a little hollow
ESPN Staff
April 28, 2014

As the dust settles on Saracens' comprehensive Heineken Cup win over Clermont, the banks of empty seats at Twickenham highlighted a problem entirely of the RFU's making.

The Times pointed out the responsibility for holding the match at the 80,000-capacity ground where only 25,000 tickets were sold rests with the RFU. Labelling the situation a "farce", the paper said it replicated the mess in 2013 "and organisers should have avoided the stadium at all costs and taken the game to a smaller venue. The RFU, however, were keen to play the game at its home ground, hardly surprising given that they received the ground-hire fee. Saracens were happy to play at Twickenham too. The competition organiser, ERC, had reservations but did not fight strongly enough."

Gavin Mears in the Daily Telegraph was equally unforgiving, lamenting that "such a breathtaking performance, and historic achievement, surely demanded more witnesses". He said the RFU wanted to keep the £150,000 hire fee rather than pay out for another ground despite ERC concerns. "The lowest ticket price was halved to £15 but it had no impact on increasing last season's attendance. The reality is that the three week window to sell the game still remains a tough one for the Premiership clubs."

Eddie Butler in the Observer said "Twickenham rang a little hollow … it would have been a fine crowd at the Madejski in Reading, but in the mother ship it was barely a crew. A stadium two-thirds empty with a French team way below their best smacked of the need for reform. Which is to be delivered next season. This was not a good day for ERC who are being taken - dragged - to the window."

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/223247.html#ErQFkdj8ZHuH4irx.99

Who are "they"?

Journos?

ERC?

RFU?

Sarries?

I see that bit doesn't have the bit saying the ERC are in control of marketing. It's not actually the RFU's decision is it? They recommended it, doesn't mean it has to happen.

Also LT said there were only £50 tickets left so the discounting the ERC didn't help as the people who would normally go just bought the cheaper tickets.

I notice you didn't highlight "This was not a good day for ERC who are being taken - dragged - to the window"

This thread is beginning to strike me as envious rant on a club that does pretty much what every other club does, play rugby, and trying to stay afloat financially.

They may do a few things differently, but they're still just a rugby club.

quinsforever wrote:Who are "they"?

Journos?

ERC?

RFU?

Sarries?

Borthwick on radio 4 when asked why the poor crowd. And the likes of Brian Moore, Rees, Butler et al who blame the ERC for everything.

HammerofThunor wrote:I see that bit doesn't have the bit saying the ERC are in control of marketing. It's not actually the RFU's decision is it? They recommended it, doesn't mean it has to happen.

Also LT said there were only £50 tickets left so the discounting the ERC didn't help as the people who would normally go just bought the cheaper tickets.

I notice you didn't highlight "This was not a good day for ERC who are being taken - dragged - to the window"

I checked on Friday - there were plenty of £15 tickets (about 500) of them. They were all in blocks as well.

Biltong wrote:This thread is beginning to strike me as envious rant on a club that does pretty much what every other club does, play rugby, and trying to stay afloat financially.

They may do a few things differently, but they're still just a rugby club.

Believe me, I'm not envious of Saracens. I think they are pathetic in the way they can't admit to having no fans and that all their marketing gimmicks fail miserably.

They had 80K at a game six weeks ago and they couldn't persuade any of them to come back!

Oh then there is the constant whining about how its everyone else's fault that their marketing is a shambles if they are not getting any customers back from giving away free tickets to other 'promotional' events.

On Thursday the men from Del Monte said no.

Their dodgy marketing means they sell out their new, fully owned ground, every week - which they sell at an average of £32 per match.. Saracens do not pretend to have the levelk of hardcore die hard fans of others - but they are growing.

They are doing better than the Welsh regions at least, both in terms of support and results.

I'm actually slightly envious of both the Irish provinces and the Sarries.

LondonTiger wrote:Their dodgy marketing means they sell out their new, fully owned ground, every week - which they sell at an average of £32 per match.. Saracens do not pretend to have the levelk of hardcore die hard fans of others - but they are growing.

They sell it out when they are playing the better supported clubs like Quinns, Tigers and Northampton.

v Exeter - 8,114
v LI - 9,012
v Sharks 7,126
v Falcons 8,152
v Bath 8,047
v Gloucester 7,462
v Worchester 5,275

Even Wasps wasn't a sell-out (9,642).

IronMike wrote:They are doing better than the Welsh regions at least, both in terms of support and results.

I'm actually slightly envious of both the Irish provinces and the Sarries.

Jebus, doing better than the Welsh regions - thats some achievement.

I suppose the Irish clubs do have an easier ride considering they fell into the professional era with a perfectly established club model. Everyone else had to work at it.

IronMike wrote:I suppose the Irish clubs do have an easier ride considering they fell into the professional era with a perfectly established club model. Everyone else had to work at it.

No they didn't happen easily.

Munster: Huge rivalry between Cork & Limerick clubs. There are still two training bases (one in Cork & one in Limerick) and two stadia. That is changing next year when everyone is moving to the University of Limerick campus. The songs Munster sing are even neutral (The Fields).

Leinster: No one outside of South Dublin would give them the time of day. They were a Dublin Club. Outside of Dublin, most of them supported Munster. At 2006 semi final in Dublin, there were about 45K Munster supporters and about 5K Leinster supporters. They now get an average of 15K in the RDS (capacity of 16K) and have about 12K season ticket holders (max).

Ulster: They have had to deal with their political divide in that it was always regarded as a Unionist game. They now fill Ravenhill every game. No one would have had a iota of the kind of challenges they have to deal with.

Connacht: Very small population, but they are building a support base now (and they don't give away tickets).

As someone who appears to be in the middle of the arguement, an Irishman living in north London who is also a coach and (very occasional player) at a Saracens partner club, i'd like to add my tuppence worth.
Firstly amd most importantly, absolute kudos to Saracens for Saturday the best game Saracens have played in that I've seen and even our resident Sarries ST holder at work agrees. Great play start to finish and a well deserved win. That said Clermont have the most amazing fans and I would go and watch them play any side in London just to take in the atmosphere they generate.
Rergarding the other stuff:
1 - Saracens do a huge amount of work to support the amateur clubs around here, they have sent us players not just to do PAs but to do hands on coaching, they run a partnership scheme whereby any tickets for their games we sell they pay us commission, they run camps for the kids during the school holidays, Allianz Park is in constant use by teams at all levels, they sponsor our youth leagues and hold a presentation evening for the boys every year with players in attendance, they have given us loads of free stuff for the minis (a ball and boot bag for every child we have), and we were given the use of Allianz Park for a whole day for a club event. I know other clubs do the same but I cannot fault their commitment to this side of the game.
2 - The Wembley and Twickenham experience - when Saracens have a game at Wembley it's a full on event, music, dancing girls and a top level team, the tickets are sensibly priced to for parents to take their kids and whole families go. Wembley is also easy to get to for most people and they publicise the heck out of it. They also hold the league presentations there so we get lots of parents to come to see their boys get their awards and as it's a reasonable price they bring the brothers, sisters, grandparent etc.
Regarding Saturday, the decision to use Twickenham was taken by the RFU not ERC, as apparently RFU wanted to "keep the money within rugby" rather than allow the game to take place at another venue. I don't think it would be cynical of me to suggest the main driver was the income the RFU would get not just from the ground hire but the concessions, shops, bars. etc. Tickets were easy to get at £15 and in response to whoever stated upthread that his mates couldn't get £15 tickets I call rowlocks as Groupon were offering tickets for £10 up to Friday, so a quick google would have found those.
3 - Saracens as a club, the good bits: they have a really good academy set up, buy wisely, a good coaching set up at Old Albanians, support women's rugby, and are increasingly looking like they are going to take over from Leicester as the dominant side in England for years to come. Thier actual day to days fans are mostly pretty good people, with IMHO no great proportion of merchant bankers than most teams, and unlike certain more rural clubs, there's been no incidents with visting players/fans to my knowledege.
Allianz Park is never going to feature on the list of favourite stadiums to visit, it's inacessible, there is nothing else around it in terms of pubs, cafes, etc. but the same could be said of the Mad Stad and Wycombe. The marketing side does sometimes work really well, with a bit of tounge in cheek, e.g. refunds if  Henson scored but sometimes also misses the mark - the student day with cheap beer and "glamour models" was pretty crass.
4 - Saracens the bad bits: Nigel Wray is a complete male chicken from time to time but seems to enjoy it (see also Richard Cockerill). Also he's going to always be the villan for the whole BT deal, ending of the HEC thing, I didn't like how it was done but we now have to live with it.
As said some of the marketing is cringeworthy (The Ulster example sounds very offensive), they quite obviously live above their means (which I think some people also read as above thier station) and push things on and off the pitch to the edge of the rulebook, I rather think Wray would love the RFU to try and pull them up on the salary cap - he'd be straight off to m'learned friends.
I also bow to no man in my admiration for the works of Right Said Fred but the continued piping of Stand Up and Here We Go does get on your 3d. bits after a while.
They are effectively the Chelsea of rugby to amend Danny Baker's comment on Chelsea "Saracens aren't a big club, they're a middle sized club that won the pools" but again if it wasn't Saracens it would be someone else.
All things beng equal they do more good than bad.
P.S. sorry for the length of this.  

Iron Mike, I'm very grateful that we were luckier than the Welsh in terms of creating a professional structure. A) Our union was in better shape financially to fund the professional sides and din't need private interests to finance the teams (and still largely is and doesn't) B) In the amateur era it was always a massive privilege and an honour for even the most bitter of club rivals to come together and represent their province. There is an obvious difference between our provinces which have had a massively prestigious role in Irish Rugby as long as Irish Rugby has existed and the regions which have almost no history and are really based on club teams, alienating fans of other club teams.

But on the other hand at the start of professionalism Ireland lagged way behind the other five nations in terms of interest in the game amongst the general public. The way the provinces have captured the imagination of the country was never a fait accompli, nor is the way the IRFU have taken the sport from minority status to a massively mainstream part of Irish culture.

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. You could also say the same about Saracens- impressed to learn of their community work and much of the stuff behind the very obvious bad stuff about them. Good post from Irish Londoner there   

The provinces have pretty much always existed as clubs haven't they? Even with the internal conflicts/politics they will naturally have more support than smaller English town/citiy clubs or the made up regions of South Wales introduced just over 11 years ago.

IronMike wrote:The provinces have pretty much always existed as clubs haven't they? Even with the internal conflicts/politics they will naturally have more support than smaller English town/citiy clubs or the made up regions of South Wales introduced just over 11 years ago.

I wouldn't say that. If you go back to the amateur era the crowds the provinces would get- the crowds everyone in Ireland but the test side would get- were generally dwarfed by big English and French clubs.

Notch wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If you go back to the amateur era the crowds the provinces would get- the crowds everyone in Ireland but the test side would get- were generally dwarfed by big English and French clubs.

Well I reckon in the 90/91 season, Leicester averaged around the 4k mark for anything other than the Barbarians fixture.

LondonTiger wrote:

Notch wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If you go back to the amateur era the crowds the provinces would get- the crowds everyone in Ireland but the test side would get- were generally dwarfed by big English and French clubs.

Well I reckon in the 90/91 season, Leicester averaged around the 4k mark for anything other than the Barbarians fixture.

See thats about 4x as much already ;-)

Shannon (the club that produced Foley, Galwey, Quinlan, Hayes, Horan, Halvey etc), dominated the club scene in the early 90s. They used to get about 6K at a game in Limerick. Ronan O'Gara says he remembers playing for Munster in Dooradoyle (Limerick) around 1998 when there were 200 spectators at an interprovincial.

The Provinces are a geographical location as such, but the thing most people in Ireland would identify is with their County and there would be huge rivalry between the Counties from GAA loyalties. For example, Leinster would have been regarded as being a Dublin club and Meath would have had a huge gaa sporting rivalry with them. I'm amazed that anyone from Meath can tolerate the Leinster fans singing 'Come on you boys in Blue' as its a Dublin GAA chant. It must sicken them!

Irish clubs are doing well both on and off the pitch at the moment which is great for rugby. It does show, play good rugby, do well and the fans will follow.

Saracens were never a top of the line club in the amateur era. They had a good history, they were the next best London side behind Wasps and Harlequins right up to the 90s and were generally seen as a feeder club in the courage years to those two flipping between league 1 & 2.

They're averageing what 8500 people per game excluding their london twickenham match which pulled in 83000.

Combined thats an average of 16,000 per year.

No doubt those figures will grow as long as success continues... and looking at their squad and financial status they will be there for a long while to come.

When I myself lived in London I never went to watch rugby live because I was playing rugby every Saturday for my old club. If they changed it to be akin to Sunday league in football I think you would see much more fans turning out to watch their local clubs.

fa0019 wrote:Irish clubs are doing well both on and off the pitch at the moment which is great for rugby. It does show, play good rugby, do well and the fans will follow.

I think the key for Ireland's success with the Provinces is that at the time they had men with great vision running the game in Ireland, who put their own club loyalties aside for the good of the game. The two were Tommy Kiernan (who dreamed up the Heineken Cup - he was also the Munster coach of the team that great the All Blacks) and Syd Miller who was IRFU President at the time. Both were members of big, influential successful clubs who wanted to go the way everyone else had gone, but they dragged them also into a provincial system kicking and screaming because they knew the clubs would not be able to compete.

Unlike the Welsh or the Scots, the IRFU held off putting money into bricks and morter (developing new stadia), but put the money instead into the players (bringing them all back from England mainly) to play with the provinces.

Irish Londoner wrote:P.S. sorry for the length of this.  

Thanks for the view from close-up.

Yeah thanks for that Irish Londoner.

Also, was it my imagination but wasn't it argued earlier that the Irish Provinces have long and rich histories (when the point was made about Saracens being a decent club for over a century). Now it seems they were arse end of nowhere and it was the clubs who were the big shots. I really get confused by these things.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah thanks for that Irish Londoner.

Also, was it my imagination but wasn't it argued earlier that the Irish Provinces have long and rich histories (when the point was made about Saracens being a decent club for over a century). Now it seems they were arse end of nowhere and it was the clubs who were the big shots.  I really get confused by these things.

The reason for this is that the Irish provinces are not a rugby construct.Even people who don't follow rugby identify with a province as the G.A.A. is alos run on a provincial basis.The countys compete for a provincial championship before the winners (and a few lucky losers but that's a relatively new thing) compete for the All Ireland.

The provinces compete in G.A.A. as well and while those games get poor attendances these days in the 60's and 70's the were regularly getting 40-50,000 going to watch them.The provinces have a long and rich history in every facet of sport in Ireland and rugby was a non entity before the late 90's.

Soccer is the only game in Ireland where the game is based on the club model and it's an utter failure as the club model is very flawed and while big countries with large populations can overcome this smaller countries really struggle.

It was stated they had long rich rugby histories, not histories in general. I might try and look up actual quote, but that takes away the fun of vague memories and incorrectly representing someone.

But they do Hound. They have as long a history as the national team.

They weren't well supported at the onset of professionalism, but then they would draw a massive crowd for visiting test sides on tour and stuff. It's estimated that the alleged crowd when Munster beat the All Blacks is larger than the population of Munster at the time ;-)

They've basically been competing against each other unbroken since the 19th century. They didn't have the public interest they do now because the sport in general was really a minority interest in most of the country.

Basically if someone said 'The Provinces have a rich history in rugby going back well over a hundred years' they are definitely right. If someone says 'The Provinces always had massive supporter bases' then they are wrong.

Check it; legit old school rugby in 1924.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5NE5LSLBNU

HammerofThunor wrote:It was stated they had long rich rugby histories, not histories in general. I might try and look up actual quote, but that takes away the fun of vague memories and incorrectly representing someone.

I said they have a long history against touring sides. . I have been to about five of Munsters...NZ (73), Aus (76), Aus (81), NZ (89), Aus (92 - a belter of a game).

As for their support base it was never large (but then the clubs never had a large base either) their popularity waxed and waned...in the 70's and 80's you would get a decent enough crowd (I went to quite a few myself - Ulster/Munster or Leinster/Munster always got a big crowd). In the 90's the AIL league started to get a bigger base but the provinces started picking up again in the mid to late 90's as the professionalism era came in.

To be clear the Provincial branches managed the game in Ireland the clubs are affiliated to the provinces, the club competitions were provincial based up until the advent of the All Ireland league (except for the Bateman cup which was from the winners of the provincial cups - no one cared about it).

You go to the Munsterrugby web site includes information about Munster branch club competitions, the clubs, schools rugby etc as does Leinsterrugby.

In other words all the structures existed prior to the advent of professionalism. The only difference now is that their are better year round competitions which didnt exist before but then again rugby in Ireland was always geared towards the internationals. Nowadays it has allowed the game to grow through the Provinces which is the natural level for the game in Ireland. Except for a few years with the All Ireland league in the 90's the level of support for the game under international level in Ireland had been in the minority sport level the exception being games against touring sides by the Provinces.

You see, that's why I don't bother going back and checking. You end up with a reasonable answer and where can we go from here?

Downhill...

anyway..just in relation to Sin É's point about the clubs in Ireland. This is a bit of a misnomer. There was a certain amount of tension between the Clubs and IRFU/Provinces during the advent of professionalism but in relation to the Welsh rows it would be seen as a drop in the ocean. The clubs were never going to be able to sustain a pro model and knew that. The dithering at the time of the advent of professionalism lead to some discussions but once original structures were agreed on there was no argument.

In overall terms the clubs beneath the provinces are doing ok(ish). There is definitely a growth in the game in areas where there wasnt rugby (or was very poor) in the past. There is still the feeling that the IRFU dont give a toss about the clubs but for a Province like Munster they are very important and the lifeblood for developing players in tandem with the academy.

One last thing..people see Munster/Leinster/Ulster as clubs but that is only the tip of the iceberg. The Provincial branches have always been the lifeblood of the game in terms of organising and developing the game in Ireland.

This thread is about Sarecens and not Irish rugby right?   

God I miss the Welsh.

it is about saracens... about how people are unhappy with saracens being successful and not doing it the fair way!!!!

example of the fair way...

all your players have to be born within 10 yards of the stadium.
you are self owned, self financed.
All your players are available for the national team, no foreigners allowed.
You play attractive running rugby. The last guy who dropped a goal was sub'd and never played again.

fa0019 wrote:it is about saracens... about how people are unhappy with saracens being successful and not doing it the fair way!!!!

example of the fair way...

all your players have to be born within 10 yards of the stadium.
you are self owned, self financed.
All your players are available for the national team, no foreigners allowed.
You play attractive running rugby. The last guy who dropped a goal was sub'd and never played again.

  

fa0019 wrote:it is about saracens... about how people are unhappy with saracens being successful and not doing it the fair way!!!!

example of the successful way...

have as many players as possible from the locality. Any foreign players to buy into the Irish/Provincial ethos.
you are self owned, self financed, don't kill off anyone else rugby so that you can massage your owners ego.
All your players are available for the national team, a limited number of foreigners allowed preferably like Doug Howlett, Isa Nacewa, Ruan Pienaar calibre.
You play attractive running rugby. The last guy who dropped a goal was sub'd and never played again.

Fixed that for you.   

https://www.606v2.com/t53445-all-things-irish-rugby

  

Scrumpy wrote:https://www.606v2.com/t53445-all-things-irish-rugby

  

Already posted there for you scrumps   

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:it is about saracens... about how people are unhappy with saracens being successful and not doing it the fair way!!!!

example of A successful way...

have as many players as possible from the locality. Any foreign players to buy into the Irish/Provincial ethos.
you are self owned, self financed, don't kill off anyone else rugby so that you can massage your owners ego.
All your players are available for the national team, a limited number of foreigners allowed preferably like Doug Howlett, Isa Nacewa, Ruan Pienaar calibre.
You play attractive running rugby. The last guy who dropped a goal was sub'd and never played again.

Fixed that for you.   

Small tweak based on current evidence...

Another point of interest for rugby in London - Ealing Trailfinders have been relegated from the Championship so another London club has seen a drop in status.

London Welsh are still there but they play in Oxford. The only Championship club playing rugby at a ground in London next year will be London Scottish.

Ealing will be joining the three London clubs I mentioned earlier - Richmond, Rosslyn Park, Blackheath.

Sin é wrote:You play attractive running rugby. The last guy who dropped a goal was sub'd and never played again.

[/quote]

I know not your quote, but you kept it in, so must agree. Oh how things could have been different if this had applied on the 23rd May 2009.

Can I start rewriting history.

Please.


Pretty, Please.

Scrumpy had a good idea but very poor execution. The idea of a thread to discuss the Irish Provinces is brilliant- so I've, eh... repurposed his effort   

https://www.606v2.com/t53448-the-official-irish-provinces-rugby-thread