Armitage Brothers for England

According to the Rugby tonight show last week Stuart Lancaster was in Toulon recently meeting with the Armitage brothers,

Would I have both in my squad the answer is unequivocally yes! Both playing great rugby for the current European champions, in a team of world fanous superstars they are the to many unfamiliar players.

Steffon covers the whole back row, recently becoming Toulons 8.

Delon is for me a great fullback, loads of passion and would allow Lancaster to pick 4 fullbacks in the match day squad

Stefon i can accept,even though he knew the crack about overseas players!

Delon nope. Brown, Foden, Watson, Nowell, May coming through.

I don't think Delon would have lost his Test place if he'd stayed in England. He would certainly have been challenged, but I suspect his goal kicking, and ability to cover wing and centre, would have been hard to resist.

Rugby Fan wrote:I don't think Delon would have lost his Test place if he'd stayed in England. He would certainly have been challenged, but I suspect his goal kicking, and ability to cover wing and centre, would have been hard to resist.

He had lost his test place prior to leaving England. He was in the Saxons squads when SL took over, then there was the incident in Torquay that led to him being dropped. End of that season he went to france.

LondonTiger wrote:He had lost his test place prior to leaving England. He was in the Saxons squads when SL took over, then there was the incident in Torquay that led to him being dropped. End of that season he went to france.

I seem to have conveniently forgotten that. Looking back, it's striking how critical some of the coverage was after Torquay: "It’s unlikely that Armitage will ever again appear in national colours"

With all the rancour following our World Cup experience, there was very little forgiveness in the air. It's to Lancaster's great credit that there's again room for rehabilitation.

Stupid thing is that Delon was definitely one of our better players at the RWC.

I have a feeling that his time has come and gone but he could have got more caps than he did (and should of made that Lions tour, even if he wasnt going to get past Kearney for the test team)

Delon started like a train on fire for England and was felt by many pundits in the "English" Press to be a contender for the 2009 Lions.

His form in 2009/10 dropped off - at the same time Foden was on the rise. Internet Forums were heavily critical of Johnson keeping Delon in the team. Eventually foden replaced Delon for the last test of the 2010 6N, scoring a try.

Delon was banned (for pushing a drugs tester) for 8 weeks and missed the chance to contest for a spot in the 2011 6Ns. He was then banned for 3 weeks at the end of that season for punching Stephen Myler. The shortness of this ban was met by incredulity by many (similar to Manu at the same time) and meant Delon was available for RWC warm-ups. He made the squad and featured in four matches, 3 on the wing and one off the bench - with his last cap coming in the final pool game against Scotland.

I wonder if he will look back at his career and ever wonder what if?

I have no problem with them being considered both can do the job for England if required.

Playing in France should have nothing to do with it imo.

England should stick to picking only players who play in England.

The Armitage bros decided to take the pay cheque in France and play for the rugby equivalent of the French Foreign Legion. They should not be chosen to play for England. If they do it sends out a really negative message.

People get on their high horse about Delon... they forget Jonno was banned for fighting at least once a season.
Delon is a front up guy on the edge... but sometimes thats good.  He is good enough to be a consistent starter in a very talented backline... with a lot of egos on the bench behind him and has all the tools... kicking, pace, tackling and try scoring.

Would he get past Brown, no.

But I would be very tempted to have him on the wing and he is a better player than Foden for me covering the bench.
Players like him could be the difference between winning and losing.

I think it would be a mistake to leave either out. Steffon too is proving himself and England have no real challenger to Robshaw, not in time for the the next RWC.

A squad and a 23 wins the RWC... not a XV.

Who's Delon challenging for his role? Foden, Watson, Daly, Goode, Nowell spring to mind. Too much competition there for him to get back in. Steffon stands more chance but there's still the incumbants both of whom could play 7, then Kvesic, Fraser, Wallace.

The only (and far from insignificant) thing in Delon's favor is his ability to play over a range of positions. But then there is Tait too- if he ever lasts more than 5 minutes without injury

Suppose there's May as well if he loses his place to Yarde as expected.

lostinwales wrote:The only (and far from insignificant) thing in Delon's favor is his ability to play over a range of positions. But then there is Tait too- if he ever lasts more than 5 minutes without injury

I'm a fan of Tait but, as you say, he gets injured too much and takes too long to get back up to speed when he returns. He's younger than Brown, Foden and Armitage, so he's no old lag.

lostinwales wrote:The only (and far from insignificant) thing in Delon's favor is his ability to play over a range of positions. But then there is Tait too- if he ever lasts more than 5 minutes without injury

The problem with Tait other than injury is that he's a rag doll. He can't take the physical stuff... and this isn't the Henson issue, its plagued him throughout his career. You don't physically dominate Armitage. That wins it for me.

I often forget that Tait was only about 12 when he was first picked for England   

Have to say I think it's a negative step picking either of the Armitage brothers as it goes completely against the "no overseas players" rule from the RFU themselves and makes a mockery of it all. What we don't know is whether SL was actually suggesting to them that they would be heavily considered if they came to play in England again? Food for thought.

Delon is a bit of a livewire - I read he's not the easiest person to get on with either but hey, that could have just been written by an over-enthusiastic journalist who doesn't like him. He did a lot of stupid things a few years ago, then chased the money to France, effectively ruling himself out. Cipriani did much the same to avoid his controversies - yet in the last 8 months (and playing in England) he's rediscovered his form and is being highly suggested in the press (the same press that took him to pieces for his many indiscretions) for an England recall.

Be interesting to see what the outcome of this is.

I don't see the issue as whether they play in France or England, the question is are they available for all England squad sessions and are they rested by their clubs when required. The answer I guess is not, so for me that puts them out of contention.

fa0019 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The only (and far from insignificant) thing in Delon's favor is his ability to play over a range of positions. But then there is Tait too- if he ever lasts more than 5 minutes without injury

The problem with Tait other than injury is that he's a rag doll. He can't take the physical stuff... and this isn't the Henson issue, its plagued him throughout his career. You don't physically dominate Armitage. That wins it for me.

I would argue that you dont physically dominate Brown or Foden, and young Watson looks the type of lad who wouldnt be bettered either. Add in Nowell who again showed in the 6n he's not a pushover and i dont think physicality comes in to it.

Delon shouldnt even be considered in my opinion. Waste of time.

Work with those lads...and May if he moves to FB.

More than enough physicality and talent there.

To be fair Delon has had his problems and I can understand why many people wouldn't want to him in an England shirt again, but some people said the same about Danny Care!

He didnt fly off for the money knowing that it would put his England place at risk....

GeordieFalcon wrote:He didnt fly off for the money knowing that it would put his England place at risk....

No thats true, but I can't blame someone for doing something I would do myself if I was in his shoes.

Oh im not questioning that Scrumpy.

Ive always said theres a huge world out there, go and see it, sample different cultures. Ive been fortunate to see a huge part of it.

I know people here in Nnewcastle that  have never left North Shields.

My point is, for his England career...he knew the crack. If he wanted to play for England so badly he wouldnt have gone.

But Mr Wilkinson was allowed to do both!

As were others under the previous regime.

Yes Johnson made exceptions.

Lancaster hasnt and i hope he doesnt change that now.

Now going against what im saying....i dont actually see a problem with players playing overseas...so long as they can make every training etc.

I just think the rules are there and they must be followed. If we wish to make exceptions then just drop the no overseas player policy.

I think there is more of a case to get Steffon back into the mix rather than Delon to be honest.

I agree GF. These cases boil down to the fact the brothers knew they were limiting their chances (certainly in their contract extensions), even if their reasoning is they are becoming better players, and so others have shown a greater willingness to play (and fight for the right) for England.

One other thing to consider in these discussions is that the Armitage's have a somewhat unusual background, having spent a few of their school years living in France (Delon between ages 12 and 17), so probably feel as much French as English anyway. Yes, their opportunity to play international rugby came through England, but I can understand how their desire to put themselves out so as to be available for England may be less than players who are more firmly rooted here.

I don't see Delon as making a return - too many good players in his position, and at nearly 31 it's too much of a backward step. Steffon perhaps has more chance, being younger and in a position where the strength in depth is less (seriously, if Robshaw gets crocked, who plays there?), but in his brief international career he didn't exactly set the world on fire, to the extent that Hendre Fourie played as much in England's 7 shirt as he did.

being younger and in a position where the strength in depth is less (seriously, if Robshaw gets crocked, who plays there

Move Wood to 7 and put Garvey in at 6  

GeordieFalcon wrote:

being younger and in a position where the strength in depth is less (seriously, if Robshaw gets crocked, who plays there

Move Wood to 7 and put Garvey in at 6  

Someone obviously misses the old Rodber, Clarke & Richards days!!!

Moving Wood out of his best position (6) is not wise in my opinion.

Ah FA...maybe not the most specialist of back rows...but by god that was a tough back row!   . Rodber one of my favorite ever England players.

Beshocked...Im sure Wood normally plays 7 for Saints with Clark at 6

I mean best position for England. I don't think Wood has ever played 7 for England.

Yeah your right. But not many other options if Robshaw is injured? Who would you want at 7?

Is one of Wallace, Fraser, Kvesic..A) Fit B) Actually playing well enough to start there.

The other thing is i dont think England strictly play a 6 and 7 more a left and right where they do everything.

But anyway at least Wood understands the 7 role and that allows us to bring big Garvey in to the 6 spot who's playing very well, and brings a whole host of physicality to the pack.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah FA...maybe not the most specialist of back rows...but by god that was a tough back row!   . Rodber one of my favorite ever England players.

Beshocked...Im sure Wood normally plays 7 for Saints with Clark at 6

That pack was so tough that Richards could leave the scrum on defensive duties half the time to cover the short side/get a breather/give himself a headstart for the break as by lord he needed it!!! And even then they had an average front row scrum.

All 3 legends though... amazing none got over 50 caps. Clarke truly messed his career up with Richmond. Rodber... he was the man who should have taken the captaincy post 95.

We all thought that was the way forward for a while... then Jonah came a hunting.

Yeah all 3 were class...

Indeed its funny how things go in cycles...big guys, then specialists then i believe we're coming back to a size phase again.

If thats the case then Garvey has to be in the Saxons at least.

FA

Harsh but true about Deano needing a head start to get to the next breakdown. Dare you to tell him so in person though    Amazing to think that he got dropped a few times for England to allow for the likes of Teague or Clark to play at 8

Rodber always seemed like perfect captaincy material, but I guess his move forward to the second row undermined his position in the team, and I'm not sure he was ever quite the same after Gibbs beat him at Wembley (noting that the penalty he conceded for a high tackle in the run up was nothing of the sort).

It'll be interesting to see if that happens Scrumpy.

My claim to fame was tackling big Tim in a 7's game in a competition up here in Newcastle.

I tackled Tony Underwood aswell   

Rodber hurt more!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah your right. But not many other options if Robshaw is injured? Who would you want at 7?

Is one of Wallace, Fraser, Kvesic..A) Fit B) Actually playing well enough to start there.

The other thing is i dont think England strictly play a 6 and 7 more a left and right where they do everything.

But anyway at least Wood understands the 7 role and that allows us to bring big Garvey in to the 6 spot who's playing very well, and brings a whole host of physicality to the pack.

Wallace has been fit and starting for Quins all season. He's had a 6 on his back most days, but the Wallace/Robshaw combination works similarly to Wood/Robshaw, except that Wallace also gets sent to stand out on the wing like Croft.

He didn't shine in his Saxons appearances, but then the Saxons as a whole displayed the kind of callowness that we should have expected from a very inexperienced side facing much more grizzled Ireland and Scotland As.

Kvesic has also been playing. I thought in the Glaws/Bath meltdown he actually played pretty well when not embroiled in the general melee

dummy_half wrote:FA

Harsh but true about Deano needing a head start to get to the next breakdown. Dare you to tell him so in person though    Amazing to think that he got dropped a few times for England to allow for the likes of Teague or Clark to play at 8

The thing about Deano was his ability to read and control the game was so complete that speed was never an issue. He just went to where the ball was going to be, and the action came to him. I remember him being recalled in (I think) the the '91 5 nations to face a swashbuckling Scotland side who looked like they could turn England over. He singlehandedly turned the game into an up-yer-jumper trundle in which the Scots had no room to play. I was favouring my Scottish side at the time and it was pretty heartbreaking but devastatingly effective.

except that Wallace also gets sent to stand out on the wing like Croft.

 
See Pourpour im old fashioned...i like my flankers in or near the mix. Let the wingers stand out on the wings.
 
Im sure if he was instructed to, he would be more in the mix though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:My claim to fame was tackling big Tim in a 7's game in a competition up here in Newcastle.

I tackled Tony Underwood aswell   

Rodber hurt more!!!!

We have things in common I see. Played against Tony a fair bit and once broke a tooth tackling him (from behind got a face full of studs but made the tackle).
Once made Tim rodber squeal with a head on tackle. He moved at the last second and my head drove into his crown jewels.

Ah those happy days.

Happy days indeed LT.